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Fermi paradox a.k.a. "Where is everybody?"

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
No proof.

People assume there's got to be aliens, and some of them have to be smarter than us based purely on math.

That's like assuming every beach with it's trillion grains of sand has got to have a diamond somewhere. Maybe, maybe not.
 

womfalcs3

Banned
I'm sure extraterrestrial beings exist. The Fermi paradox is myopic (the universe is vast, and the speed of causality is restrictive), and not generalized (beings that exist outside of Earth could be simple... non-intelligent beings).

Off-topic:

I do not think time travel is at all humanly possible. Aside from thermodynamic laws that forbid backwards time travel, why haven't we had a person from the future?
 
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Thurible

Member
Bluntly. Yes.
There is a big difference between God and aliens. You can't reason the existence of aliens as necessary beings for example. There are stronger reasons for God than extraterrestrials.

Anyway, lets not talk about this. This topic is about the existence or non-existence of alien life and the Fermi paradox, not God. What do you think of this "conundrum". Does the vastness of this finite universe mean there are other forms of life besides the ones on our earth, or not? If you believe aliens probably exist, why do you think we haven't met them?
 

nush

Member
Does the vastness of this finite universe mean there are other forms of life besides the ones on our earth, or not? If you believe aliens probably exist, why do you think we haven't met them?
I think other life in the universe exists. If you think god exists why do you think we have t met him, or any of the numerous other gods? Fermi paradox is just one aspect of trying to figure out life in the universe.
 

Pejo

Member
Man I absolutely love thinking about this stuff. I've already read about most theories and watched a ton of videos on the subject. I just hope that before I die, we do find some sort of life in the universe besides ours. On one hand, that almost certainly proves religion is false, and that death is truly the end. On the other, it opens the ideas and possibilities that for humanity, as long as we don't destroy ourselves, there really is no limit. I feel like I was born a few thousand years too early. I haven't experienced anything cool other than Saturday Morning Cartoons, AOL chat rooms, and shitposting on the internet.
 

MetalAlien

Banned
I just hope that before I die, we do find some sort of life in the universe besides ours.
Careful what you wish for.
 

nush

Member
Man I absolutely love thinking about this stuff. I've already read about most theories and watched a ton of videos on the subject. I just hope that before I die, we do find some sort of life in the universe besides ours. On one hand, that almost certainly proves religion is false, and that death is truly the end. On the other, it opens the ideas and possibilities that for humanity, as long as we don't destroy ourselves, there really is no limit. I feel like I was born a few thousand years too early. I haven't experienced anything cool other than Saturday Morning Cartoons, AOL chat rooms, and shitposting on the internet.
Get out there in the world if you can there's tons of cool stuff you can experience for the first time, not just what makes headlines or history to be piped to your screen.
 

kegkilla

Banned
I'm going to go with "the laws of physics make Interstellar travel pretty impractical". Even with theoretically concepts with nuclear fusion engines that aren't even close to existing it would still take like 100 years to get to alpha centuri.
 

Airola

Member
Aliens havent found us because we are too small and insignificant.

Also aliens can be too small and insignificant too.
If aliens exist there's really no reason they would necessarily have to be these super smart things that could and would want to search the space and meddle with any other civilizations in any way or form.

When we think about aliens we love to think we are too stupid to understand them and so stupid that they either want to destroy us or save us from ourselves. No, if there are aliens they might not even know we or any other civilizations exist and even if they do they might have no interest in us or any other civilizations whatsoever - or at least in the sense that they'd know we should be destroyed or they'd know we are dangerous to ourselves so we should need them to save us.
 
I'm sure extraterrestrial beings exist. The Fermi paradox is myopic (the universe is vast, and the speed of causality is restrictive), and not generalized (beings that exist outside of Earth could be simple... non-intelligent beings).

Off-topic:

I do not think time travel is at all humanly possible. Aside from thermodynamic laws that forbid backwards time travel, why haven't we had a person from the future?
I have thought since I was a teenager that backwards time travel is either impossible, or we are going to die off before we figure it out. So it's a waste thinking about it.
 

MetalAlien

Banned
I have thought since I was a teenager that backwards time travel is either impossible, or we are going to die off before we figure it out. So it's a waste thinking about it.
The butterfly effect would probably destroy the present. Even if you opened a little window to the past and just looked through it for a moment before closing it that would probably be enough to reset quantum randomness. Everything in the past would slowly start to happen differently than we remember just due to random quantum noise.
 
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YukiOnna

Member
Wait, what are you talking about? And what were your UFO sightings?
This one in the first few seconds of the video: https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/20/politics/ufo-sightings-navy-briefs-us-senators/index.html

And:
The first one was when I was back in Pakistan as a young kid and just looking out in the balcony with my family. They pointed to the sky and told me to look at the "round ones" and there were 3 saucers high up but still visible like a plane and then they just sort of stopped, made some sort of formation with the other 2 and then hovered straight up out of the visible atmosphere. It's stuck with me since.

Second was that I was just coming home from University around midnight and almost to my home within my neighborhood. Then I kept hearing a little whirring sound around the area and there were weird flashes like thunder in the sky, but it was only within a small group of clouds. I just kept staring wondering what the fuck was going on and this triangular prism thing was making a straight beeline and as it went the flashes followed along its travel path.

It could have been that Project HAARP conspiracy crap about controlling weather too? I don't know man. But I certainly don't believe either were man-made, especially the one when I was younger.
 
The butterfly effect would probably destroy the present. Even if you opened a little window to the past and just looked through it for a moment before closing it that would probably be enough to reset quantum randomness. Everything in the past would slowly start to happen differently than we remember just due to random quantum noise.
That's a nice thought.
 
Man i'm stupid as fuck when it comes to astronomy/astrophysics etc but I love reading about it - be it quantum mechanics, string theory, multiverses etc. We need more threads like this here.
Btw. Aliens do exist, just watch documentary of stan romanek on netflix!

xD
 

Neo_Geo

Member
Gosh, Giorgio Tsoukalos weirds me out with his hairstyle. I also hate the idea of the show "ancient aliens". From what I understand, its a show where they speculate on unusual happenings/architecture in history and blame it on extraterrestrials. It's so asinine and idiotic. It also belittles the real history by making the work of REAL MEN AND WOMEN into some weird little game.

Kind of like how Egyptology blatantly works to cover up the work of real men and women. The history that is taught through academia is horrendously inaccurate.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
I think a lot of people can't comprehend time on a galactic scale. All those other aliens that they think should be out there? Could be millions of years in the past and/or millions of years in the future.

We've been around for less than an eye-blink. It's like walking outside in the middle of Montana for 1 second and being surprised you don't immediately see a creature that isn't native.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
my main issue with things like the Fermi paradox is that they assume life elsewhere will follow the same rules as life here. thus we look for carbon, water, etc. things that would be nice for Earth. TBH i think if life exists on other planets, it may not follow those rules at all, which would make it nearly impossible to detect. IMO there is a lot of life on Earth that has gone undetected, or remains invisible to the "normal" standards we use call something alive or not.

i took a few astronomy courses in college and once they explain to you how that science is done, it is clear there is a ton of guesswork and estimating. it isn't simply that we can send a camera out to these planets, outside of Mars and the Moon, we pretty much have zero idea what any of the planets in our solar system really look like on a ground level. Venus is too covered by clouds, the thick atmosphere destroys any tech we send in. Mercury is insanely far away, and probably too hot. the actual hard data we have on any planet outside of Earth is extremely limited.

truth is that science is relatively still very young here. it's a bit early for them to be making declarative statements regarding the vastness of the universe, of which we have mapped a tiny, tiny, TINY amount.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Embrace it. We are completely alone and you only get to understand that for about 80 years before you return to nothingness.
thing is, we are not alone. the universe is teeming with life. this planet has so many species as is, all the animals, even plants we know to be alive. they breathe, they move, they grow, they live and die, they form communities, they interact with other species, they travel their homeworld, etc. are these not living beings? we already have extra species relationships with all kinds of creatures, until we realize this, and treat them with respect, any aliens are kind of doomed IMO.

there is an inherent Anthropomorphic quality to the question. the centering of the human experience over all. this is hinted at in the question of "intelligent life". who is the human race to judge intelligence? we kill, we murder, we cheat others, there is tens of thousands of years of written history of our stupidity. are we really better than the animals?

people say "what would it do to religion?" yet fail to recognize science adopts the very same position. that humans are somewhat better than the rest, that our culture is what separates us from the animals, as if the media we produce and the abstract systems we entertain to justify our behavior is some kind of glorious evolution. is it really? if Climate Change is real then it basically admits we just fuck up our habitat far worse than any animals, how is that intelligent?

that is the odd thing about Evolutionary Theory. it is anthropomorphic in practice just like the Abrahamic religions. people say they believe it, that we are just animals, but they don't act like it. if we find life on other planets, it is likely to be just like animals, beings that we cannot communicate with (where is our so called intelligence there?), who we capture, enslave, experiment upon, eat, etc. without concern for their consent in the process. because they do not look human, they do not share our superficial qualities, we feel justified in treating them as nonhuman. on this point, you can see where science has in the past supported treatment of other races as inhuman. TBH until we all come together in unity as a planet of human people living in unity with our animal kin i don't see much meaning to be had in an alien revelation. they will be more beings who we fight and kill and plunder.
 
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MetalAlien

Banned
thing is, we are not alone. the universe is teeming with life. this planet has so many species as is, all the animals, even plants we know to be alive. they breathe, they move, they grow, they live and die, they form communities, they interact with other species, they travel their homeworld, etc. are these not living beings? we already have extra species relationships with all kinds of creatures, until we realize this, and treat them with respect, any aliens are kind of doomed IMO.

there is an inherent Anthropomorphic quality to the question. the centering of the human experience over all. this is hinted at in the question of "intelligent life". who is the human race to judge intelligence? we kill, we murder, we cheat others, there is tens of thousands of years of written history of our stupidity. are we really better than the animals?

people say "what would it do to religion?" yet fail to recognize science adopts the very same position. that humans are somewhat better than the rest, that our culture is what separates us from the animals, as if the media we produce and the abstract systems we entertain to justify our behavior is some kind of glorious evolution. is it really? if Climate Change is real then it basically admits we just fuck up our habitat far worse than any animals, how is that intelligent?

that is the odd thing about Evolutionary Theory. it is anthropomorphic in practice just like the Abrahamic religions. people say they believe it, that we are just animals, but they don't act like it. if we find life on other planets, it is likely to be just like animals, beings that we cannot communicate with (where is our so called intelligence there?), who we capture, enslave, experiment upon, eat, etc. without concern for their consent in the process. because they do not look human, they do not share our superficial qualities, we feel justified in treating them as nonhuman. on this point, you can see where science has in the past supported treatment of other races as inhuman. TBH until we all come together in unity as a planet of human people living in unity with our animal kin i don't see much meaning to be had in an alien revelation. they will be more beings who we fight and kill and plunder.
So much optimism. It must be wonderful.

 

Pimpbaa

Member
I'm that kind of guy that if he doesn't see something with his own eyes (while awake) he doesn't believe in it.

Yeah but what if our eyes are primitive as fuck? There could be aliens laughing at us because we only see in 3 dimensions. I mean there are animals and insects that can see colors that we can't, and some predatory birds can see so ridiculously far away to the point that if a human had that they would be considered superhuman. Plus our eyes (and brains) get so easily fooled by optical illusions, it's literally our brains fucking up and not processing what our eyes are seeing correctly. Our senses are not the most reliable instruments for telling us about what is happening in the world around us.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
I figured at some point in the future, we would discover faster than light communication method and their will already be beings using it already.

Even if that is truly impossible, we wont be shooting powerful RF signals around willynilly, they would be point to point laser signals that are undetectable unless pointed right at you. It could even be that the WOW signal was like that and we just happened to briefly pass in front of the beam
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah but what if our eyes are primitive as fuck? There could be aliens laughing at us because we only see in 3 dimensions. I mean there are animals and insects that can see colors that we can't, and some predatory birds can see so ridiculously far away to the point that if a human had that they would be considered superhuman. Plus our eyes (and brains) get so easily fooled by optical illusions, it's literally our brains fucking up and not processing what our eyes are seeing correctly. Our senses are not the most reliable instruments for telling us about what is happening in the world around us.


Do you have flesh vision?
 

Thurible

Member
What if they did exist and believed in Jesus? I've often pondered that thought. It would make for one hell of a revelation.
That would be interesting, and it would sort of make sense theologically. If there are other peoples who have fallen out of grace with God like mankind, a sort of similar story of salvation history possibly could happen. Though personally I doubt the existence of extraterrestrial life, it is an interesting topic to speak on. Would it effect theology, or would nothing change?

Here are a few weird and somewhat interesting things on catholicism and space.

Pope Francis himself once said that if aliens exist and want to be catholic, he would allow them into the fold.


There also is a diocese on the moon, specifically the diocese of Orlando (though this claim was largely made in jest it is technically true)

"Regarding the Archbishop’s wit, there is charming story about his ad liminaapostolorum visit to Pope Paul VI in 1969. Canon law requires all bishops to come to Rome to appear before the Pope every five years and to venerate the tombs of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, who were martyred in Rome. The term ad limina apostolorum means “to the thresholds of the apostles” and refers to the visits to these tombs.

This visit by Archbishop Borders to Rome occurred after the Apollo 11 mission when astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin landed the lunar module on the moon on July 20, 1969 while Michael Collins remained in orbit piloting the command spacecraft. Paul Paul VI was quite engaged with the mission, following it on television and peering at the Moon through the telescope at the Vatican Observatory.

During his visit, Bishop Borders mentioned to the Pope that he was the “bishop of the Moon”. Responding to the Pontiff’s perplexed reaction he explained that according to the 1917 Code of Canon Law (in effect at that time) any newly discovered territory was placed under the jurisdiction of the diocese from which the expedition which discovered that territory left. Since Cape Canaveral, launching site for the Apollo moon missions was in Brevard County and part of the Diocese of Orlando, then in addition to being bishop of 13 counties he was also bishop of the moon!

However, Bishop Borders had rivals to his claim of episcopal jurisdiction. At a prelaunch banquet at Patrick Air Force Base Cardinal Terence Cooke of New York vied with Archbishop Coleman Carroll of Miami for the honors. Cardinal Cooke’s claim was based on his being vicar of the Military Ordinate with a base at Cape Kennedy while Archbishop Carroll claimed that his jurisdiction was based on the tradition that the moon is always over Miami!"

Kind of like how Egyptology blatantly works to cover up the work of real men and women. The history that is taught through academia is horrendously inaccurate.
Not trying to be rude, but I don't quite understand your meaning.
 
I'm curious as to how aliens would view "art". Just within our own species, what constitutes art is quite abstract. There are debates on that all the time, we even have trouble understanding fellow human beings' "art". It seems like a natural step towards intelligent life, but what do we know? It's not like we can test it out on another species from another planet.

The day we find aliens and communicate with them will probably be a huge leap forward in scientific understanding. It's just unfortunate that the odds of this happening within our lifetimes is astronomically low. The vast majority of our understanding in science, technology, and logic has come within the last century. That's 1 or 2 lifetimes. We've essentially just begun in the grand scheme of things. The year is only 2019, that's nothing compared to humanity's estimated 200, 000 year existence. Technology has already progressed to the point where daily human life in 1519 is dramatically different from life in 2019. Go to the year 100,019 and human life at that point will be near unrecognizable to us imo.
I would love to learn about their different cultures and historical events. Is their world comprised of hundreds of countries and governments? Do they have a one world order? Did they undergo a similar Renaissance period or engage in one or more world wars? Maybe they're nomads? I feel like there's so much we could ask them, like a child playing 20 questions with their parent or teacher.
 
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My theory is that once life can spread off planet it will spread exponentially fast. Sort of like how humans have spread exponentially across the earth.

Or maybe we're just in a simulation and the creators have certain goals in mind.
 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Aliens are must see TV and would be great hovering around normally, but would they be integrated into society like that? You talk to everyone involved in alien, ufo cases and shit goes sideways people fearing for their lives.
 

Neo_Geo

Member
Not trying to be rude, but I don't quite understand your meaning.

The recent work by Independent researchers and geologists such as Brian Forester, Randall Carlson and Robert Schoch are directly contradicting the long held belief that Ancient Egypt ~3-4000 years ago was the start of modern humans. Egyptology vehemently ignores and buries any factual knowledge which alters their false narrative. Not to mention that archaeologists are afraid to challenge this status quo, since funding is pulled and subsequently denied upon such "rogue" actions.

This has bred nonsense like Ancient Aliens, the show which is basically analyzing human technology from (Pre-Cataclysm/Younger Dryas Extinction Event ) ~13,000 years ago attributing it to Aliens, since our ancestors from 4,000 years ago had no way of constructing these vast structures themselves.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
I'm curious as to how aliens would view "art". Just within our own species, what constitutes art is quite abstract. There are debates on that all the time, we even have trouble understanding fellow human beings' "art". It seems like a natural step towards intelligent life, but what do we know? It's not like we can test it out on another species from another planet.
there are living species with intelligence on our planet now creating all kinds of structures that we are wholly ignorant of, and more likely, only see as trash to get rid of to pave way for human creations. what do you think when you see an ant hill? are you inspired by it? most likely you would just stomp it to dust. a wasps nest? for most humans it is a thing to exterminate.

IMO the idea that there is a difference between "life" and "intelligent life" is an unproven hypothesis lying at the heart of science's unacknowledged anthropomorphic cosmology. science has walked itself into a corner here. either humans are special and unique among living creatures, a view shared with religion, or all living things are animals and all the civilization/art is just us fooling ourselves. in the case of the latter, seeking "intelligent life" elsewhere is a useless proposition as we can't even distinguish as such on our own planet.

Egyptology vehemently ignores and buries any factual knowledge which alters their false narrative. Not to mention that archaeologists are afraid to challenge this status quo, since funding is pulled and subsequently denied upon such "rogue" actions.
as someone with a lifelong interest in Egyptology, i have no idea what you are on about here. is this about the uncertain age of the Sphinx? maybe start a thread for it? seems interesting.
 
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Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
There is a big difference between God and aliens. You can't reason the existence of aliens as necessary beings for example. There are stronger reasons for God than extraterrestrials.
You can in the same way as you can for Yahweh: Sloppily and faultily.
 

Lastyou1

Banned
As a proud fellow Italian, I must admit that Fermi's paradox is not a complete paradox, in the meaning that he (willingly? Personally, I don't know) skipped/avoided other possible solutions that still don't disprove the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life.




1) Aliens do exists, but their technological development is below or on par with ours.

2) Aliens with superior technology do exists, but despite their advanced technology, they still can't reach Earth or communicate with it.


3) Aliens do exists and they are communicating to us, but we cannot understand them or we cannot perceive their means of messaging.

4) Aliens do exists but are not interested in interacting with us.

5) The Universe is so big and almost endless that Aliens are currently traveling to meet with us, but they still need to arrive.

6) They are already among us and somehow they pass unnoticed (something that many Movies and TV shows imply, like V-visitors and X-Files)

7) At the moment Aliens do not exist, but could exist in the future, maybe when Earth shall be eaten by the sun in 5 billion years from now.

8) The current humankind could create an "extraterrestrial" population by means of colonization and/or diaspora. Technically they would not be "aliens", but still they would be non-terrestrial humans. So, technically speaking, intelligent life outside Earth's.




All this shots on order to say that we cannot prove nor disprove extraterrestrial existence in the universe for the simple reason that we know a very tiny slice of universe and, in comparison, we know more things about the universe than our own seas on Earth (source: many marine biologist I know).
 
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