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Fighting Games Weekly | Mar 2-8 | Capcom does the Monster Nash

shaowebb

Member
Tridashing is something other developers just have to get enough guts to implement.
Not gonna lie...shit is hype, but from a design standpoint it is incredibly fucking hard to try and balance it because it allows for soooooo much loop/infinite potential in characters. Thats not even taking into account what it does for characters in potential of footsies like mixups, crossups, and baiting opponents into the wrong action.

You use tridashing and you essentially have a full plate of things to consider balance on before you even get to their normal damage let alone their specials simply because it plays hell with meter build and damage potential based entirely on range/mobility being so powerful that it mitigates most of the normal methods you can design into a move to balance it.

One of the longest talks I ever had was how on Earth you could "safely" execute such a character. I can't go into what we discussed, but lets just say tech never got so deep as when it was involving trying to balance tridashes in ANY moveset or fighting game system. It literally puts everything in question.
 

Kusano123

Neo Member
And Millia in previous GG was better designed. If you remember her idle stance, she had her arms gloved in black and they were wrapped around her body so you would not see them from her silhouette except for one that seemed to balance like a dead thing (a dead member!). This was done on purpose: to remove them from our eyes and from millia's capabilities. By "removing" Millia's arms they implied her hair was a more natural thing to her than using her hands. That was bold and very clever. In Xrd Millia's arms can be seen with her silhouette, her fingers too. Since she has long sleeves with a bright color, your eye will see them for sure and I like her new design globally, she is less a discreet character, she's assuming herself. But it goes against the "hair is a body part" thing that was the most efficient and clever decision they took when creating her. They had to make the hair bigger and sharpen it to make it stand out as the arms are now covering it.

Pic:


Really dislike Millia's new stance because of how stiff and awkward it looks.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Not gonna lie...shit is hype, but from a design standpoint it is incredibly fucking hard to try and balance it because it allows for soooooo much loop/infinite potential in characters. Thats not even taking into account what it does for characters in potential of footsies like mixups, crossups, and baiting opponents into the wrong action.

You use tridashing and you essentially have a full plate of things to consider balance on before you even get to their normal damage let alone their specials simply because it plays hell with meter build and damage potential based entirely on range/mobility being so powerful that it mitigates most of the normal methods you can design into a move to balance it.

One of the longest talks I ever had was how on Earth you could "safely" execute such a character. I can't go into what we discussed, but lets just say tech never got so deep as when it was involving trying to balance tridashes in ANY moveset or fighting game system. It literally puts everything in question.

What makes tridashing an entry point for broken stuff like infinites? Or do you just mean 8-way airdashing in general? Even in Marvel 3 there are hardly any characters that rely heavily on tridashing. It's basically just Magneto.
 

shaowebb

Member
What makes tridashing an entry point for broken stuff like infinites? Or do you just mean 8-way airdashing in general? Even in Marvel 3 there are hardly any characters that rely heavily on tridashing. It's basically just Magneto.

8 way dash in general. Soooooo much potential to break a game when it exists.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
8 way dash in general. Soooooo much potential to break a game when it exists.

In Marvel it's actually mostly the flight + airdashing that enables infinites. Airdash attacks tend to be handled by the scaling system pretty well. And of course infinites wouldn't even be in the game without our beloved TAC system.
 
Did you seriously list that you learn how to go ABC from marvel? lol
Take your dick out of your mouth long enough to think from a beginner's perspective. A huge number of people who start fighting games just push buttons. Teaching a basic button flow for combos is massive for getting those people into coherent gameplay practices.

Not gonna lie...shit is hype, but from a design standpoint it is incredibly fucking hard to try and balance it because it allows for soooooo much loop/infinite potential in characters. Thats not even taking into account what it does for characters in potential of footsies like mixups, crossups, and baiting opponents into the wrong action.

You use tridashing and you essentially have a full plate of things to consider balance on before you even get to their normal damage let alone their specials simply because it plays hell with meter build and damage potential based entirely on range/mobility being so powerful that it mitigates most of the normal methods you can design into a move to balance it.

One of the longest talks I ever had was how on Earth you could "safely" execute such a character. I can't go into what we discussed, but lets just say tech never got so deep as when it was involving trying to balance tridashes in ANY moveset or fighting game system. It literally puts everything in question.
That is why I think a fighting game should experiment with a "burst" ender for combos. I mentioned it earlier, but the basics would be:
1) All attacks lead to potential infinites.
2) When being hit (not blocking), a burst gauge builds.
3) Bursts are the only way to get out of combos.
4) Combos end when bursted or the attacking player goes for a reset.
5) Resets reduce the burst gauge significantly.

You would have to tune the burst gauge so that it builds at the right rate, but in the end this would ensure no true infinites, allow for creative combos, and would add a burst bait meta for additional depth.

PSN SF4 anyone??
I will in 30 min if you don't find someone else.
 
Interesting read. If possible it would be nice to see a comparison between the returning characters in Xrd to their original desighs.

Potemkin is probably the badest of all but not for just a matter of taste. Just look:



In past games Potemkin is a slave. The red collar he has around his neck can explode if his masters want. This collar slave acts physically on Potemkin as he's leaning under the weight of it. So potemkin's physical position evokes submission to his masters and that's a great justification to both have a slow/heavy character.
In Xrd, Potemkin does not have his collar slave anymore and is wearing a soldier uniform. It means he was freed but joined the Zepp army. So there is no reason for him to keep this submissive position while not wearing that collar anymore. A character becoming free would stand straight to express it. From previous games we know that he stands straight when he's not wearing it but somehow Arc designers forgot it:



It's does not matter but it just emphasizes the fact that Arc designers didn't thought too much about all this while doing redesigns... Or didn't care at all.
 
Potemkin is probably the badest of all but not for just a matter of taste. Just look:



In past games Potemkin is a slave. The red collar he has around his neck can explode if his masters want. This collar slave acts physically on Potemkin as he's leaning under the weight of it. So potemkin's physical position evokes submission to his masters and that's a great justification to both have a slow/heavy character.
In Xrd, Potemkin does not have his collar slave anymore and is wearing a soldier uniform. It means he was freed but joined the Zepp army. So there is no reason for him to keep this submissive position while not wearing that collar anymore. A character becoming free would stand straight to express it. From previous games we know that he stands straight when he's not wearing it but somehow Arc designers forgot it:



It's does not matter but it just emphasizes the fact that Arc designers didn't thought too much about all this while doing redesigns... Or didn't care at all.
You should do an article series on this. I would read it.

Edit: one line I disagree with: that a free man would stand tall. Someone who has been imprisoned for a long time will act like a prisoner even after release if it has been so long that he has forgotten what it is like to be free.
 

Marz

Member
I will in 30 min if you don't find someone else.

OK awesome I'll send you an invite around then.

Edit:

Thomasaurus do Zato my Dood. Like he's less evil/demonic looking now because he's in control instead of Eddie in AC would be the gist of it right?

Double edit:

Heads up for FGC GAF, don't buy TellTales Game of Thrones episodes on PS3. Shit is literally unplayable. Runs at like 5 frames per second, dialogue skips and stutters, constant freezing, screen tearing you name it can't believe they actually released this shit I wasted 10 bucks.
 

OceanBlue

Member
It's does not matter but it just emphasizes the fact that Arc designers didn't thought too much about all this while doing redesigns... Or didn't care at all.

To me, it looks more like they just wanted to keep his hurtbox and silhouette similar. Considering how drastically his design was changed, it makes sense to me that they'd want to keep the silhouette similar. If he were standing, his hurtbox would be way too tall (it's already large now lol). I can't say whether they forgot, didn't care about lore, or just made a tradeoff instead though, but that's how I see it.
 

Kumubou

Member
That is why I think a fighting game should experiment with a "burst" ender for combos. I mentioned it earlier, but the basics would be:
1) All attacks lead to potential infinites.
2) When being hit (not blocking), a burst gauge builds.
3) Bursts are the only way to get out of combos.
4) Combos end when bursted or the attacking player goes for a reset.
5) Resets reduce the burst gauge significantly.

You would have to tune the burst gauge so that it builds at the right rate, but in the end this would ensure no true infinites, allow for creative combos, and would add a burst bait meta for additional depth.
This basically sounds like Skullgirl's IPS system. The one real problem I have with this is that it's a system that I find to be unnecessarily stressful on the player getting hit, because you effectively have to look out for resets at pretty much any point in the combo. It's like you turned every character/team into MvC2's MSP. A system like this can also lead to homogenized combos, where you are generally trying to get from your starter into the most IPS-efficient sequence that you can, since there are no other real constraints in place. There can be other considerations in place (I know Skullgirls adjusts meter gain depending on the combo), but that can easily lead to situations where the game becomes visually unappealing (like if everyone could zoop zoop) and with fewer judgement calls being made by the player on the offensive.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Potemkin is probably the badest of all but not for just a matter of taste. Just look:



In past games Potemkin is a slave. The red collar he has around his neck can explode if his masters want. This collar slave acts physically on Potemkin as he's leaning under the weight of it. So potemkin's physical position evokes submission to his masters and that's a great justification to both have a slow/heavy character.
In Xrd, Potemkin does not have his collar slave anymore and is wearing a soldier uniform. It means he was freed but joined the Zepp army. So there is no reason for him to keep this submissive position while not wearing that collar anymore. A character becoming free would stand straight to express it. From previous games we know that he stands straight when he's not wearing it but somehow Arc designers forgot it:



It's does not matter but it just emphasizes the fact that Arc designers didn't thought too much about all this while doing redesigns... Or didn't care at all.

I appreciate the thought you're putting into your analyses, but I can't agree with an opinion just because it's well considered. For instance, perhaps the latest Potemkin design is intended to reflect the reality of someone who's been freed from slavery physically but not mentally/emotionally? Like an institutionalized prisoner who never really rejoins society despite being released. Also, soldiers are in the service of the government, which could be considered another form of slavery. So Potemkin still slumps. I feel like if you dissect anything for long enough you'll find inconsistencies, but what's more important in this context is the overall feel of a character as you play them.
 
I don't care what anyone says, I'm having a blast with xrd. I actually like millia's new stance better too. The old one looks a bit weird to me.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
The dicsussion over execution and simplicity with just a great deep system is what make DOA5 so appealing to me. It has some characters who are really simple in their execution but they also have crazy execution characters and crazy combos for those who have the execution. Phase 4 is that concept in it's ultimate form, she's unsafe, has crazy exectuion combos that does 45% damage combos. But since she's unsafe, you have to be a solid player to succeed with her.

Like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m0tC-JUpx0
Since my execution is not quite there this is best I can do at the moment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lakKVTngN_U
 
You should do an article series on this. I would read it.

Thanks but my english level is way too low to be published outside of forums. It needs a lot of correction. :/

Unfortunately he's playing too much sf4 ;(

I'm going to capture you and force you to play Xrd story mode again by using the same thing they have in A Clockwork Orange.

Thomasaurus do Zato my Dood. Like he's less evil/demonic looking now because he's in control instead of Eddie in AC would be the gist of it right?

He didn't change that much to be honest. The thing is Zato was a cold blooded assassin and Eddie was the shadow with a very agressive, almost sadistic nature. When Zato died we saw Eddie fighting to keep some of his forms as he's consuming the dead body of Zato. That's why in AC he has different animations for the shadow moves. That probably didn't cost them too much to do and they wanted to change some gameplay things on him. You see that at this time they were very consistent with the visuals and small details.

What is sad in Xrd is, once again, the 3D. They flattened and angled his body, his head being the most visible thing, and removed a lot the organic gluey aspect. Now it's like his wearing a helmet. He was always strange, his head being close to a humanized komodo dragon with sometimes an apparent beak. For Xrd they went closer to the shark appearance of the shadow itself... But even more angular :




Edit:

To me, it looks more like they just wanted to keep his hurtbox and silhouette similar. Considering how drastically his design was changed, it makes sense to me that they'd want to keep the silhouette similar. If he were standing, his hurtbox would be way too tall (it's already large now lol). I can't say whether they forgot, didn't care about lore, or just made a tradeoff instead though, but that's how I see it.

You are right about all this. I was only pointing something I think is not logical or could have been handled differently. I'm one of those who thinks Xrd should have been more different than what we got.

I appreciate the thought you're putting into your analyses, but I can't agree with an opinion just because it's well considered. For instance, perhaps the latest Potemkin design is intended to reflect the reality of someone who's been freed from slavery physically but not mentally/emotionally? Like an institutionalized prisoner who never really rejoins society despite being released. Also, soldiers are in the service of the government, which could be considered another form of slavery. So Potemkin still slumps. I feel like if you dissect anything for long enough you'll find inconsistencies, but what's more important in this context is the overall feel of a character as you play them.

I thought about this solution too and that would be the best way to explain it, I agree with you. But as Oceanblue explained they probably didn't want to change everything for fans/time/money reasons. I'm only explaining what things bothered me in Xrd as part of the ongoing discussion (ok monologue) we're (I am) having here about the balance Arc is trying to find with Xrd. :)

It's possible that he developed scoliosis after all the years of slave-dom.

Dead. :'D
 
This basically sounds like Skullgirl's IPS system. The one real problem I have with this is that it's a system that I find to be unnecessarily stressful on the player getting hit, because you effectively have to look out for resets at pretty much any point in the combo. It's like you turned every character/team into MvC2's MSP. A system like this can also lead to homogenized combos, where you are generally trying to get from your starter into the most IPS-efficient sequence that you can, since there are no other real constraints in place. There can be other considerations in place (I know Skullgirls adjusts meter gain depending on the combo), but that can easily lead to situations where the game becomes visually unappealing (like if everyone could zoop zoop) and with fewer judgement calls being made by the player on the offensive.
If the combos are short before the burst comes up (6 hits?), then it makes the game faster paced. I think this is mostly on the developer to create resets that are reasonable and fair.

PSN SF4 anyone??
I am on now.
 

CurlyW

Member
In Xrd, Potemkin does not have his collar slave anymore and is wearing a soldier uniform. It means he was freed but joined the Zepp army. So there is no reason for him to keep this submissive position while not wearing that collar anymore. A character becoming free would stand straight to express it. From previous games we know that he stands straight when he's not wearing it but somehow Arc designers forgot it.

It's does not matter but it just emphasizes the fact that Arc designers didn't thought too much about all this while doing redesigns... Or didn't care at all.

It's possible that he developed scoliosis after all the years of slave-dom.

so they made the black character a slave


but..hes free now but still believes he's a slave


kanye warned us about this.

Hey now, that's not true. Ramlethal is the black character.
 
I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Any reason why DOA gets those huge streaks- with VF I noticed even the winningest players only were about 80% winrate on ranked.

A VF player was getting a 20 streak on my lobby yesterday. Eventually the lobby got him down. I got really close one time and miss-input and lost. Then another solid player came in and just started going ham.
 
I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!

we spend 10 pages talking about dragonball and anime. i doubt anybody thinks you're spamming lol
 
I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!

Please don't, this has been the only interesting and worthwhile topic of discussion in this thread for a long while.
 
OK awesome I'll send you an invite around then.

Edit:

Thomasaurus do Zato my Dood. Like he's less evil/demonic looking now because he's in control instead of Eddie in AC would be the gist of it right?

Double edit:

Heads up for FGC GAF, don't buy TellTales Game of Thrones episodes on PS3. Shit is literally unplayable. Runs at like 5 frames per second, dialogue skips and stutters, constant freezing, screen tearing you name it can't believe they actually released this shit I wasted 10 bucks.

Common knowledge to never play Telltale games on PS3

Sorry about the loss of your ten dollars though
 
GGs Marz. I think I have had my fill. I just wanted to refamilairize myself with the game since I haven't played it in six months or so.

I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!
Your posts are the most worthwhile thing in this thread for months.
 

Marz

Member
GGS Karst. I feel like your a little too patient with Blanka, you've gotta go a little crazy on Sagat every once in a while. Sometimes after a jump in throw me just so its in the back of my head to tech and then you'll start hitting with the electricity to blow up my techs, since you weren't throwing I had no reason to do anything but block.

Some of your fireball reads were really impressive.
 
This. Being execution heavy is a turn off to very large audiences. I'd have played a shitload more KoF 13 if it wasn't for the amount of homework it takes to perform in that game. The amount of buttons per second involved in a combo being super high and the amount of directional input per second being high is not something I see as a good thing.

Meh. Exaggerating KOF XIII's execution requirements again.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
Meh. Exaggerating KOF XIII's execution requirements again.

People in this thread exaggerate execution requirements at large and palaver about a red herring. FG execution barriers and ceilings are such an emergent and granular element of any relatively complex fighting game, to place a value judgement on it is silly.

Knee is streaming some Tekken 7 right now and testing a bunch of stuff, including some things that the chat requests.

http://www.twitch.tv/holyknee


About damned time I get a taste of some new HQ footage of this game.






It tastes like chicken.
 
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