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Fighting Games Weekly | Mar 2-8 | Capcom does the Monster Nash

Anybody else find themselves completing inputs imprecisely? I've noticed for a long time that when I do an action like a fireball or dragon punch motion, I'll input the joystick motions but hit the attack button(s) slightly after finishing the final joystick motion rather than at the same time. Input leniency means my intended action comes out correctly, but it seems better to be as precise as possible with your inputs. I've tried to stop doing it, but it's really hard to do.

Any training mode that displays input is usually a pretty humbling experience for me

Watching the clusterfuck of my "movement" in TTT2's training mode really showed me how far I have to go
 

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
Of course it's staged (like all magic tricks)... it's still fun though.

 

Kimosabae

Banned
Anybody else find themselves completing inputs imprecisely? I've noticed for a long time that when I do an action like a fireball or dragon punch motion, I'll input the joystick motions but hit the attack button(s) slightly after finishing the final joystick motion rather than at the same time. Input leniency means my intended action comes out correctly, but it seems better to be as precise as possible with your inputs. I've tried to stop doing it, but it's really hard to do.

You want to fix this?


Play Guilty Gear.
 

jerry1594

Member
I can't agree completely with this when they also included Oro as the greatest master in a forgotten art (and Oro considers himself a rookie) that craps on almost everything fighting related shown in the series, made Ryu and Gouki's ending be "they'll keep improving forever" and keep giving us new faces and possibilities - Ryu motivates Alex to keep fighting while Ken has a pupil, Makoto is keeping the dream alive, Necro shows that an obsolete/old model is not trash - Twelve never kills him.

But it's a nice way to look at it.
I think that affirms the finality of the game. If you think about it everyone ends on a high note or with unanswered questions. Just because the game doesn't end in an absolute doesn't mean the next game will up the ante. That sort of thinking is what causes those nonstop anime power increases. To have E. Ryu and Oni be canon in SF would be awful and I think the Third Strike team were interested in avoiding that.
 

Anne

Member
So Mad(Arc Revo winner, top PSR Teddie, dude who just solo OCVs team tournaments for giggles) finally put up his early P4U2 2.0 tier list. He comes from a strong region and plays strong players often, and has one of the best ideas of what the game probably looks like right now, so his list is worth looking at a bit more so than some others out there right now. Rise and Adachi are excluded because he doesn't know anything about them quite yet. He also says something along the lines of "if you're startign now don't pick chars below S Teddie"

big stupid mmcafe link

Cross post from the P4U2 thread. Basically one of the better lists for P4U2 2.0. I'm open to questions about any of it I guess.
 

Azure J

Member
You want to fix this?


Play Guilty Gear.

The weirdest thing about GG for me is HCB,F motions. Everything else is really clean, but there are times where I legit cannot get supers out for anything and just pretend I don't have the option as a result. It's even more weird/upsetting when random day of the week I'll get the super consistently on one side of the screen while flailing on the other.
 

LegatoB

Member
Cross post from the P4U2 thread. Basically one of the better lists for P4U2 2.0. I'm open to questions about any of it I guess.
I haven't really been following P4U2, but I remember people used to think Yosuke was a lot higher. What killed him? Did they finally take out gliding or something?
 

Azure J

Member
I haven't really been following P4U2, but I remember people used to think Yosuke was a lot higher. What killed him? Did they finally take out gliding or something?

I'm also mildly curious as to what put Shadow Mitsuru so far above everyone else.
 

fader

Member
The weirdest thing about GG for me is HCB,F motions. Everything else is really clean, but there are times where I legit cannot get supers out for anything and just pretend I don't have the option as a result. It's even more weird/upsetting when random day of the week I'll get the super consistently on one side of the screen while flailing on the other.

usually from that I notice people don't cleanly input Back before going forward. I remember having this problem when I was young with KOF's 2x HCB Supers
 

Anne

Member
I haven't really been following P4U2, but I remember people used to think Yosuke was a lot higher. What killed him? Did they finally take out gliding or something?

Yeah they took out glide and gave him less knockdowns. Glide was actually busted to an insane degree, and loss of consistent KD on top of it basically took away everything that made him completely stupid.

Weren't people rating Shadow Junpei really high initially?

Initially he was considered very high, and I think a lot of people still list him as strong. He's unlisted here along with Adachi and Rise, which would mean Mad just doesn't have experience with the char yet. Junpei is still considered weak while S. Junpei is considered to be a much stronger version. Bet would be he ends up somewhere in the area of good but not like top.

I'm also mildly curious as to what put Shadow Mitsuru so far above everyone else.

Consistent damage and conversions are strong, better KD, plus she can still do 7-8k~ with shadow berserk, and she might not even need 100 meter to break 6-7k. They gave Mitsuru back a couple things and the new shadow mechanics work strongly in her favor.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
The weirdest thing about GG for me is HCB,F motions. Everything else is really clean, but there are times where I legit cannot get supers out for anything and just pretend I don't have the option as a result. It's even more weird/upsetting when random day of the week I'll get the super consistently on one side of the screen while flailing on the other.

Check your motions carefully. The most common error in that circumstance seems to be people missing the 4 input. It's easy to miss among the arrows.


*edit*

Yah, what fader said
 

LegatoB

Member
Yeah they took out glide and gave him less knockdowns. Glide was actually busted to an insane degree, and loss of consistent KD on top of it basically took away everything that made him completely stupid.
Should've known they'd never let him keep consistent knockdowns. Oh well.

Who's the easiest strong character to play if you want to dabble in the game these days? Banchou? Yukari chucking arrows all over the place looks fun but I dunno if I want to grind out combos.
 

Anne

Member
Should've known they'd never let him keep consistent knockdowns. Oh well.

Who's the easiest strong character to play if you want to dabble in the game these days? Banchou? Yukari chucking arrows all over the place looks fun but I dunno if I want to grind out combos.

Most chars are pretty simple, but if you want to keep it even more simple anything with a sword works.

1) How did Yukiko jump so much?
2) Why did Margaret go down?
3) Why will Elizabeth always sucky suck suck?
4) Do we know when this is coming to the West?
5) Does 2.0 add in the DLC characters as standard?

1) Much higher consistent damage off random hits, lower recovery on a lot of stuff. The damage is huge, right now she's not too bad but her reward is garbage. Now her reward is on par and she got better overall
2) Marge is more or less in the same spot just some other chars shot ahead of her. She's very similar to her current version
3) Liz is poorly designed from the outset and ArcSys doesn't feel like risking it trying to do anything drastic
4) No
5) This is in arcade, we have no idea what console 2.0 could look like yet.
 
Cross post from the P4U2 thread. Basically one of the better lists for P4U2 2.0. I'm open to questions about any of it I guess.
1) How did Yukiko jump so much?
2) Why did Margaret go down?
3) Why will Elizabeth always sucky suck suck?
4) Do we know when this is coming to the West?
5) Does 2.0 add in the DLC characters as standard?
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Anybody else find themselves completing inputs imprecisely? I've noticed for a long time that when I do an action like a fireball or dragon punch motion, I'll input the joystick motions but hit the attack button(s) slightly after finishing the final joystick motion rather than at the same time. Input leniency means my intended action comes out correctly, but it seems better to be as precise as possible with your inputs. I've tried to stop doing it, but it's really hard to do.

I used to do it, maybe you're not getting enough time in the training room, that's what fixed it for me, or you switch setups frequently. Maybe one has more lag than the other in terms of TV's. Which game is causing you to do this? Or is it overall every fighting game you play?

Or how little the opinions of message board FG pontificators actually matter.

lol man, you always have to go to the next level with things.
 
The weirdest thing about GG for me is HCB,F motions. Everything else is really clean, but there are times where I legit cannot get supers out for anything and just pretend I don't have the option as a result. It's even more weird/upsetting when random day of the week I'll get the super consistently on one side of the screen while flailing on the other.

usually from that I notice people don't cleanly input Back before going forward. I remember having this problem when I was young with KOF's 2x HCB Supers

Check your motions carefully. The most common error in that circumstance seems to be people missing the 4 input. It's easy to miss among the arrows.

I mean you guys say that but in the case of Guilty Gear the HCB-F inputs are legitimately way more obnoxious than they have any right to be. They won't register the input at all if you don't hit every single input including the diagonals. One of the key things I hope that they'll be specifically fixing in newer versions of the game.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
I mean you guys say that but in the case of Guilty Gear the HCB-F inputs are legitimately way more obnoxious than they have any right to be. They won't register the input at all if you don't hit every single input including the diagonals. One of the key things I hope that they'll be specifically fixing in newer versions of the game.

Why should you not hit all the directions? How are you even skipping directions?
 
Why should you not hit all the directions? How are you even skipping directions?

It's pretty common on a square gate and for pad players and it makes for an input that's requires you to be way more precise compared to every other input in the game. For characters like Potemkin it's especially bad because his command grab input overlaps with at least 4 other potential options.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
It's pretty common on a square gate and for pad players.

No clue about square gates, but ps pads cheat with inputs and you should be hitting them by default not even trying. Hell I can jump up, up back, duck, down back block. All just using the little left part on the dpad
 

Kimosabae

Banned
I mean you guys say that but in the case of Guilty Gear the HCB-F inputs are legitimately way more obnoxious than they have any right to be. They won't register the input at all if you don't hit every single input including the diagonals. One of the key things I hope that they'll be specifically fixing in newer versions of the game.

My Heavens! If you don't execute a move properly it won't come out?? Ya don't say??

Pay attention to the premise of the discussion: dude wants cleaner inputs. Guilty Gear wants clean inputs.

Instead of making this an issue again: why not spend some more time in Training Mode? Your general execution in FGs will thank you later.

*edit*

I don't have a problem with the motion on square gates or pad. I still miss it sometimes, but that just tells me I need to work on them more, not chastise the game for me missing them. I used to suck at them completely, but I just practiced.
 

Manbig

Member
Massive bullshit. Execution carries over between all fighting games in different ways.

Not all fighting games. There's is just about zero things in Marvel's execution that will help you in having clean and well timed inputs for all of the nonsense in Tekken. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that this is a good thing for Tekken here by the way.
 

4r5

Member
his command grab input overlaps with at least 4 other potential options.

This is the true source of Potemkin's power.

edit: Square gate or whatever doesn't matter. Once you get proficient, you don't touch the gate unless you're blocking/charging.
 

Dahbomb

Member
If you use double tap for dashes in Marvel then that execution skill is transferrable between the two games. If you can do crouch dashes in Tekken then you can do wave dash in Marvel with some adjustment. It won't be optimum of course but you will start off with some mobility option right off the bat.

When I first started playing these Marvel games from Tekken I always dashed with double forward/back and cancelled with down/forward or down/back. Eventually I learned that two button dash is just simply better and easier.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
Not all fighting games. There's is just about zero things in Marvel's execution that will help you in having clean and well timed inputs for all of the nonsense in Tekken. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that this is a good thing for Tekken here by the way.

Timing and cleanliness of inputs is being too detail-oriented. Memorizing long sequences of inputs (read: Psychological chunking) and being forced to perform them under pressure, consistently, is transferrable. I'm not talking competitive pressure, either. The game's high-stakes emphasize the importance of not dropping these sequences and is crucial to success, generally speaking.

Just for example.
 
My Heavens! If you don't execute move properly it won't come out?? Ya don't say??

Pay attention to the premise of the discussion: dude wants cleaner inputs. Guilty Gear wants clean inputs.

Instead making this an issue again: why not spend some more time in Training Mode? Your general execution in FGs will thank you later.

We've had this conversation before but I stand by what I said then, me being able to input the move 100% of the time wouldn't change how obnoxious the input is. I can go in with Sol and input DP in Xrd as forward, back, down-back, down-forward, forward and still get DP. I miss one diagonal in an input that's half circle back -> forward and get a whole slew of unrelated moves. It requires you to be uncharacteristically precise compared to other moves in the game. It's an outlier and should change. Luckily, going by the announced changes in the loketest, ArcSys seems to agree.

But I only brought it up because the people were saying that the most likely reason he wasn't able to get the input out was because he was missing the 4, if this were any other modern fighting game that might be the case but Xrd is special. :p
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
We've had this conversation before but I stand by what I said then, me being able to input the move 100% of the time wouldn't change how obnoxious the input is. I can go in with Sol and input DP in Xrd as forward, back, down-back, down-forward, forward and still get DP. I miss one diagonal in an input that's half circle back -> forward and get a whole slew of unrelated moves. It requires you to be uncharacteristically precise compared to other moves in the game. It's an outlier and should change. Luckily, going by the announced changes in the loketest, ArcSys seems to agree.

But I only brought it up because the people were saying that the most likely reason he wasn't able to get the input out was because he was missing the 4, if this were any other modern fighting game that might be the case but Xrd is special. :p

That's a horrible example. That's adding inputs not taking one away. You didn't hit the inputs required to do the move so you don't get it. What you are saying is sol should be able to do uppercuts by doing forward then down.
 

Manbig

Member
Timing and cleanliness of inputs is being too detail-oriented. Memorizing long sequences of inputs (read: Psychological chunking) and being forced to perform them under pressure, consistently, is transferrable. I'm not talking competitive pressure, either. The game's high-stakes emphasize the importance of not dropping these sequences and is crucial to success, generally speaking.

Just for example.

In Tekken, that comes into play just as often, if not MORE often. Worst case scenario in Marvel 3, you die in three touches. Worst case scenario in Tekken, it takes only 2 touches, and one of those will probably be with minimal risk to the attacker, assuming that your execution is on point at least.

Also, long sequences of inputs is much easier to deal with than the insanely precise timing that goes into every aspect of moving and attacking in that game. People have played it for years and still can't get it down, despite it being a basic requirement to even be considered a decent player. It's not a positive aspect of the game at all, but do no underestimate it.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
Anytime I'm challenged by something in a FG I look at it as an opportunity to get better in general. I might bitch and moan during the process, but I know even the little things will make me a better player, generally, if I step up to the plate and nip them in the bud.

I'm also confident that if not now, at some point in the future, my attitude will separate me from the people that would rather spend their energy only bitching and moaning.

*shrug*

But that's just me.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
I used to do it, maybe you're not getting enough time in the training room, that's what fixed it for me, or you switch setups frequently. Maybe one has more lag than the other in terms of TV's. Which game is causing you to do this? Or is it overall every fighting game you play?



lol man, you always have to go to the next level with things.

I think it's just a habit in all games. I just don't think about it usually.

Man, literally no one is playing HDR on PSN. *sad*.
 
That's a horrible example. That's adding an input not taking one away.

It certainly contributes to the problem of move overlap for the characters that have to put up with it. The answer is to either simplify the input (which they rightfully did with I-No's shenanigans and seem to be doing with May's command grab) or tweak the engine so that it prioritizes the more complicated one when doing X sequence of inputs. Really all they need to do is make it so that 426 is a recognized half circle and we're golden.

Anytime I'm challenged by something in a FG I look at it as an opportunity to get better in general. I might bitch and moan during the process, but I know even the little things will make me a better player, generally, if I step up to the plate and nip them in the bud.

I'm also confident that if not now, at some point in the future, my attitude will separate me from the people that would rather spend their energy only bitching and moaning.

*shrug*

But that's just me.

I play the game, I just don't shut my eyes to the flaws inside of it. And I don't take pleasure in hurdles for the sake of hurdles, if something can be made simpler without sacrificing anything in the process, it should be made simpler.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
It certainly contributes to the problem of move overlap for the characters that have to put up with it. The answer is to either simplify the input (which they rightfully did with I-No's shenanigans and seem to be doing with May's command grab) or tweak the engine so that it prioritizes the more complicated one when doing X sequence of inputs. Really all they need to do is make it so that 426 is a recognized half circle and we're golden.

But the motion of 46 has no overlap for potemkin outside of his 6p
 

Kimosabae

Banned
In Tekken, that comes into play just as often, if not MORE often. Worst case scenario in Marvel 3, you die in three touches. Worst case scenario in Tekken, it takes only 2 touches, and one of those will probably be with minimal risk to the attacker, assuming that your execution is on point at least.

Great. We agree.

Also, long sequences of inputs is much easier to deal with than the insanely precise timing that goes into every aspect of moving and attacking in that game. People have played it for years and still can't get it down, despite it being a basic requirement to even be considered a decent player. It's not a positive aspect of the game at all, but do no underestimate it.

So... moving in Tekken is harder than moving in Marvel 3? What's your point? So they share no parallels as Fighting Games whatsoever?
 

Azure J

Member
Anytime I'm challenged by something in a FG I look at it as an opportunity to get better in general. I might bitch and moan during the process, but I know even the little things will make me a better player, generally, if I step up to the plate and nip them in the bud.

I'm also confident that if not now, at some point in the future, my attitude will separate me from the people that would rather spend their energy only bitching and moaning.

*shrug*

But that's just me.

Yeah I can respect this. I'm the type that is all smiles during the wins and losses usually laughing at how bad I can be all while aiming to do a little bit more or pick up on different habits better the next time. The only person in existence that gets me truly salty from early on when playing FGs is my brother. Dude is one of those PR Rog style players who doesn't need more than 5 seconds in a match to hit you with some nutty shit, internalize it then make it work every time after that. What's more his entire game plan is "offense, offense, offense." It gets me violently salty sometimes, but I figure if/whenever I see myself out of the storm, I'll have to be "good" at dealing with pressure.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Missing any of the diagonals in the sequence means you can get anything from megafist in either direction, jab, or 6P (as you mentioned).

How the hell do you get mega fist. The only thing you should get from messing that up is 6P

If you are getting anything else you are fucking up SUUUUUUUUUUPER bad
 
How the hell do you get mega fist. The only thing you should get from messing that up is 6P

If you are getting anything else you are fucking up SUUUUUUUUUUPER bad

62146 will get you megafist, just tested it, that's one missed diagonal. I'm not kidding when I say the input is dumb.

Seriously.

You should be fucking glad Xrd is what is it is.

It does some things right but it's not perfect. luckily ArcSys agrees and is making some needed tweaks to some of the specific problems I'm having with it. It's not like I'm calling the game a load of garbage because I don't like the way it handles a set of inputs. Calm down.
 

MechaX

Member
3) Liz is poorly designed from the outset and ArcSys doesn't feel like risking it trying to do anything drastic

I'm kinda curious on what they could do to salvage Liz at this point (hell, I think I said this act same thing when Ultimax first hit in Japan).

Like usually there will be some fluctuations between versions, but I have never seen a character be just consistently bottom like Liz (well, there probably are other examples, but I can't think of them at the moment, besides like DeeJay or something).
 
One missed direction from a PBuster or two extraneous directions added to your MegaFist?

One missed diagonal from the PBuster input gives me the Megafist, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Sounds like square gate isn't for you or you just need more practice. That's a weird issue

Maybe, it's just not an issue I've come across in the other fighting games I've used this gen with stick. On the bright side my DPs are perfect. :D
 
I am also looking forward to more lenient input reading, Disco. Mostly because double tapping dashes perfectly for Zato's frame traps is hard.
 
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