Lostconfused
Member
In other games it really doesn't matter because someone isn't there to exploit your weak points.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Fighting Games Weekly | May 11-17 | Sticks and Stones Break Zangief's Bones
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Actually they are, the average player just doesn't run into them as often and it's not nearly so blatant.
Strongstyle http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky
Karsticles
Member
3-0 at Revelation in Denver so far. Made top 32 for tomorrow. All Mewtwo, no Bowser.
This happens in pretty much every game when a skill disparity exists, and even in many when there isn't one.
Emperor Bohe
Member
man i shoulda went to toryuken
god damn lol, is the competition free?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I have a few good ideas for helping new player :3
Why you hatin on Karst
Post from someone who has low experience with MOBAs.
im asking his personal opinion on the players lol, it came out the wrong way
Play them so they quit.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Lostconfused
Member
What imperical evidence are we looking for to support the veracity of your statements?
Parallax Scroll
Banned
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
If someone wants to beat you they will use what works best vs you. If you deny this then you yourself are at a natural disadvantage.
You said "someone isn't there to exploit your weakness in other games" as compared to fighting games.
You play a DOTA game and you go Mid solo against an experienced player. He will figure out that you are bad at last hitting, bad at denying, bad at positioning, bad at creep management, bad at rune control, bad at bottle crowing and he will exploit all these weaknesses to destroy you over and over in lane. Then he will communicate to his players that his lane opponent is a bad player and everytime the opposing team sees you on the map they will target you to feed on you. Then you will end up with a 0-10 score, yelled at by teammates and lose the game because your weaknesses were exploited. Then to pile on they will trash talk you in All Chat along with your own teammates so it becomes a 9 man gang that exists only to berate you into uninstalling the game.
The higher the skill difference, the more exploitation occurs. MOBAs are shark infested waters where if they get a whiff of a bad player they descend upon that prey really quickly and exploit the power level difference dramatically. They keep punishing you until you GG out of the game.
This is even more so in strategy 1v1 games like Starcraft where you can't even mitigate your weaknesses by getting carried by better teammates. Strategy games are made to exploit and capitalize on other player's weaknesses.
This is a bit of a strong tangent I'm about to go on, but it's something I genuinely find fascinating despite not being limited to people approaching fighting games.
Remember how I told you all I was lurking Splatoon stuff recently? I checked out Squidboards a few days back and saw an interesting topic in there where people were decrying people investigating/exploring the game's demo for understanding on how to play optimally, calling it a search for "exploits". More specifically, everyone was arguing that the use of the word "tech" (as in techniques/going to the lab for tech) as a catch all for any discovered techniques or optimizations of play has a poor connotation that's linked to negative aspects of Smash and FG communities due to the metas that develop around these techniques not being things that are given to you as basics. I was quite honestly baffled and wondered why there's such a strong reaction against developing or even understanding/accepting competitive edges from player bases of games where the overall goal of said games is one that encourages that competition.
Its just people complaining about people who already want to get ahead.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Do other specialist threads talk about the pitfalls of the genre as often as fighting game threads do?
Don't know why people are taking a kiddy shooter on the WiiU with no voice chat that seriously...
/s
"Character" action game fans do as the genre is pretty niche these days and the last good game in the genre tanked in sales.
If you ever visit the DMC threads then you will always see discussion on how things can be changed within the series and the genre.
Juicebox_FGC
Member
I feel certain genres of games really encourage competition, internal reflection and continual self improvement more than others. Of those genres, fighting games are probably the smallest? I think it might just be an extension of that competitive "I want to do better! I can do better!" mentality? I could be talking out of my ass here though.
Lostconfused
Member
At least 4 of those people should uninstall right after for letting someone like that go mid.
MarkMan
loves Arcade Sticks
I always feel bad in those threads because despite absolutely adoring everything about the genre and most entries in it, I haven't invested half as much time into getting good at those games as even the most passive person contributing in them. This also means that a lot of suggestions on how to change them for the better go over my head besides obvious stuff (training mode). I swear this summer I'm going to finally "get" DMC3 and do work. Hopefully the job hunt vortex doesn't eat up all my spare time. :lol
Emperor Bohe
Member
did u go? i got too lazy to go to the airport smh, wish it was downtown.
That's not how it works, someone always just picks a mid hero first then calls mid. They can be a "good" overall player based on MMR but a bad Mid player and you can never know until the game actually progresses.
The element of weakness exploitation goes even further when you know who you are playing against and their weaknesses as an individual person when it comes to drafting. If I know I am going against Admiral Bulldog then I can ban Nature's Prophet and Lone Druid right off the bat because I know that he specializes in those two heroes. This is a common practice at top level play and just an hour ago Team Secret won against Team EG by banning all of Sumail's Mid heroes (QoP, Storm, SF) because they know outside of these 3 heroes he isn't a huge threat.
Imagine picking up a fighting game, learning 3 characters for months and going to a tournament and when people figure out you are good with those 3 characters they ban them in game and exploit your weakness of being crap with other characters.
It's ruthless... but these are the games that we play.
Lostconfused
Member
It's a team game,you can blame one person but everyone failed. The rest of the team showed weakness by not adjusting to the situation.
You going to CEO Markman? I wanna say whats up lol
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
the wubs
Coffeeling
Member
I agree with this. I vividly recall one new Sagat player on SRK's beginner section who couldn't see the difference between his play and Ryan Hart's. He saw them doing the same things, shots knees dps and such, but was blind to the spacing, pacing, distance. He saw the what, but not the how and when.
Depends on what games you mean. Go and the like? Yes. Miniature wargames? Nah, not much. Their problem is clear, and it's that most of the games are ass. Not many of them are built for cutthroat competition to begin with, Privateer Press' Warmachine/Hordes system is one of the few. They do a splendid job communicating the spirit of the game, by the way. Here is the fifth page of the core rulebook:
EDIT: Page 5 throughout the versions: http://shin14n.blogspot.fi/2005/12/page-5.html
shaowebb
Member
Because its really good and really competitive. On a personal note I don't like voicechat and am glad I can do without being called every racial or sexual slur in the book because I shot someone in a game. Considering the pad lets you mark spots on the map for your team, see where the action is and superjump there in an instant and even use tools like echo location to scout areas I don't think voice chat is that needed for this title anyways.
Splatoon is a new shooter meta. One that I think went well outside the box to tackle problems in shooters most haven't...a big one being just being able to move around safely. Traveling through Ink and reloading as you do so lets folks stay pretty mobile in a shooter and this is an issue only a few shooters has admitted exists and have tried to tackle till now. Plus the ability to see the shot path due to streams rather than bullets helps a lot too.
Splatoon gets taken seriously because it directly addressed a lot of things that people found annoying in shooters and made a new kind of game around not forcing folks to suffer through those same limitations. There are reasons why it overtook everything at E3 and drew the biggest crowds.
There are whole forums about crpgs where the prerequisite to conversation is that you have to hate crpgs.
Emperor Bohe
Member
what's up with the ps4 device disconnect stuff? shit takes up a lot of time
edit: do u need an adapter to use a keyboard for MKX on ps4? or is it natively supported?
edit: do u need an adapter to use a keyboard for MKX on ps4? or is it natively supported?
It's all perception. Splatoon is new, so it hasn't had a chance to be broken down and understood, so people still only see it as "just a game".
When Mario Kart WiiU released last year, I essentially went into the OT asking targeted questions on how to play the game optimally. Is snaking still a thing? What's a good line on X track during Y turn? Is X vehicle good on Y track? I figured since Mario Kart had something of a competitive scene in the distant past, some legacy tactics and strats existed I could assimilate to accelerate my competency that would be common knowledge at this point.
I basically got laughed out of the thread. By some of whom even post in FGW.
I was obviously kidding with my post hence why I ended it with a /s.
As far as the game being very "competitive", that remains to be seen with stuff like map balance, tactics balance, online netcode and functionality, how team communication is handled and the emergence of "tech". The game can be a masterpiece of game design but if the netcode is ass and the MM garbage then hardly anyone is going to put in the time.
WesternHeretic
Member
Doesn't DOTA have pick order?
I mean with Leauge it's 1-2-2-2-2-1 (for picks), people can call shit and they do all the time but they can't really do shit about it if someone has pick order before them and take X role.
What I do is if someone wants the role I'm about to take I just do a quick search on their name look at their stats and determine if I should let them have it.
It didn't use to have it but they just recently introduced it. This doesn't really change much as person who picks first just picks Mid hero and then says "Mid solo tyvm".
Besides all the cool people play Captain's Draft anyway.
Emperor Bohe
Member
yo this fucking erron black
Holy Order Sol
Member
If you can demoralize an opponent strictly through play you're doing something right. It helps if you do it early on in a set too. That's one good reason to go for hard reads even when the numbers say you shouldn't. People talk about "mental damage" for a reason.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
RayRay looking real strong. Maybe this won't be free for Justin.
do people not understand how tier lists work anymore? A friend of mine tried to convince me that T Hawk is top tier even thought he admitted he has a ton of bad match ups.
Now how does that make since? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't tier list determined by how many match ups you are dominant or weak to?
Now how does that make since? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't tier list determined by how many match ups you are dominant or weak to?
Parallax Scroll
Banned
KBrad just got 3-0'd by a local player.