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Final Fantasy is going through a Midlife Identity Crisis - Opinion

Comandr

Member
Funny you bring up Persona (a series I enjoy I should add) as a model Square should follow with FF. It's funny because there's a contingent of the Persona fanbase who dislike P3-P5 with a passion due to the series moving away from tone of P1-P2 to a something akin to high school / teen simulator.
Persona 5 is nothing like any of the Final Fantasy games. Trying to make a Persona-like Final Fantasy game would just be “trend chasing”.

I’m glad someone is making weeb high school life sim crap for people like you. Please don’t ruin FF with that.

You both wildly missed the point of my post. P5 is, without a doubt, a slower turn based JRPG. It is very popular. Full stop. It has great music, an interesting story, likeable characters, and style for days. Its SETTING has no bearing on that whatsoever. It could be set in a fantasy world or a salaryman office or whatever and that wouldn't change the core game. High school is just an exhausted backdrop that Japan seems fixated on. I never said I liked the high school setting or even brought it up at all.
 

Nautilus

Banned
I just think it’s worth pointing out that you’re so used to huffing your own farts that you’re openly declaring what is and isn’t a mainline Final Fantasy game. It‘s important context to your thread.

Sakaguchi himself is excited. You are not. Perhaps you might reflect on why that is the case?
Because we are different persons, and this is my opinion, as is stated in the title?

Look, Sakaguchi is still a business person and a public figure. Few persons of that caliber would go out of their way to be openly hostil to another dev that might one day work with, especially with the former company he came from and made a career out of.

But even if he's not simply being polite, he can say and desire anything he wants, I would still not agree with him. In regards to what MY opinion is related, and not facts, nobody but myself is above it, regardless of what people think about it, and regardless what drugs they are on when they think they are above it.

Now we can discuss why my opinion is great or bad, but if all you have to say how you think my opinion is bad and use colorful words that you've just learned to do it, then I would suggest that you go back to smelling your own farts too.
 

Nautilus

Banned
What do you mean atb? I'm not down with the acronyms. FF15 wasn't turn based either.
Active time battle. Its the type of turn based system that FF 4 through 8 used.

And he is flat out wrong. FF 15 wasn't 100% action, but that wasn't atb even to people high on LSD.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
Series like Tales of, Trails, Fire Emblem, Persona, Disgaea etc have perfected the art of pandering to the same otaku/weeb audience who reliably buys anything with shrieking animu girls and teen melodrama.

Final Fantasy has always been about ambition, taking big risks with storytelling/gameplay/visual design/setting etc. with cutting edge graphics and production values. Last thing they should every try to do is be like those other games. That’s the least interesting thing they could possibly do.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
The argument that the series sales have stagnated or its becoming irrevlevant are false.
FF 7 sold 14 million world wide with less gamers. It’s gone down since then even as the total gaming industry has grown. 🤷‍♂️

It’s a sales vs amount of gamers at the time. Ff 15 only sold 10 million on three platforms. Zelda BOTW has done 29 million. 😱

I also like to point out that I bought FF15 on all three platforms 😂😢
 
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The only problem and the only "crisis" that Final Fantasy XVI has for many is this...

FTiMjnsagAA_Cn5.jpg:large


nothing more
 
Series like Tales of, Trails, Fire Emblem, Persona, Disgaea etc have perfected the art of pandering to the same otaku/weeb audience who reliably buys anything with shrieking animu girls and teen melodrama.

Final Fantasy has always been about ambition, taking big risks with storytelling/gameplay/visual design/setting etc. with cutting edge graphics and production values. Last thing they should every try to do is be like those other games. That’s the least interesting thing they could possibly do.
You have no legit arguments to stand behind so you attack consumers of games you don't like. Let go of your hate for people who enjoy turn based games already.
 
The argument that the series sales have stagnated or its becoming irrevlevant are false.
Final Fantasy used to be literally one of the biggest franchises around. VII and VIII were the second and fourth best selling games on the PS1, X and XII were fifth and ninth best selling on PS2.

That is, to put it lightly, no longer the case. Yes, in absolute numbers FF is selling as much as ever, but the overall market is much bigger these days and the series has simply not kept up.
 

mortal

Gold Member
You are probably refering to FF Xv, as I don't remember 13 doing super well, and 12 didn't do better than X.(I think).
That's my point. People have been arguing that FF lost its identity even back then when FFX did away with world maps, airship piloting, some series tropes, and the utilization of voice acting. Or because of the designs. It's one reason or another.
Despite any of that, it did extremely well. Those criticisms were in the minority, and the series continued to grow in popularity.
Now the focus of the argument has shifted to turn-based vs real-time, even though Square-Enix still makes turn-based FF games to this day among hybrid and action-based battle styles.

The problem is that XV did most of its sales on the long run, and did so at lower prices, as it hit something close to bargain bin prices relatively fast. Plus, and I might be mistaken on this, FF XV developmemt cost was especially high compared to previous FF, so much so that even some DLCs had to be cancelled because it lacked interest for them and Square decided to cut its losses. Not to memtion the critical reception the game had. So all in all, it's financial success might have been lower than what any of the previous entries might have been.
FFXV had a troubled production going all the way back to FF versus XIII, prior to its reboot. The project was in preproduction for almost a decade before being rebooted into FFXV.
Followed by the switching of game directors and cutting of content to get the game out. Resulting in some of the original features being implemented retroactively after the initial launch.
The critical reception of FXV was less than some entries for sure. Even so, the game ended up selling well and made its development cost back.

FF XIV is an exception. And even then, an expensive exception that was very costly Square with its 1.0 release. I personaly don't even consider the MMO entries an mainline games, as they are an ever expanding story, but that's a discussion for another time.
XI and XIV are in fact mainline entries regardless of what you feel about them. This again is another point to my argument about how some FF fans have differing opinions and views of what defines Final Fantasy because of "reasons."
FFXIV had issues because of how bad it was in 1.0, that's pretty self-explanatory. A badly designed game is a badly designed game and the reception will more or less reflect that.
A Realm Reborn relaunch and the subsequent expansions completely turned it around and made it one of the most commercially successful FF entries to date.

So yeah, FF has been a hit or miss for almost 20 years now. And even the ones that are a hit, the "growth" we see is small compared to what the other long standing franchises are doing nowadays.
FF is a hit or miss depending on who you ask. Growth is still growth. In other words, not declining or stagnating.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
You both wildly missed the point of my post. P5 is, without a doubt, a slower turn based JRPG. It is very popular. Full stop. It has great music, an interesting story, likeable characters, and style for days. Its SETTING has no bearing on that whatsoever. It could be set in a fantasy world or a salaryman office or whatever and that wouldn't change the core game. High school is just an exhausted backdrop that Japan seems fixated on. I never said I liked the high school setting or even brought it up at all.
Okay, so how much if that series’ appeal is the slow, boring turn based combat? How much is due to being a high school life sim with waifus?

The first two Persona games were more traditional JRPGs and they were pretty niche. Same with mainline SMT, Soul Hackers, SMTxFE, etc. I don’t think your Persona 5 example is proving what you think it proves.

BTW if they were to announce that Persona 6 were getting rid of all the high school/life sim stuff, the fanbase would be pissed and it would probably sell far worse than P5
 

onQ123

Member
When you can't copy & paste your weekly post into the Japanese sales thread because PS5 sales went up this week lol
 

mortal

Gold Member
Final Fantasy used to be literally one of the biggest franchises around. VII and VIII were the second and fourth best selling games on the PS1, X and XII were fifth and ninth best selling on PS2.

That is, to put it lightly, no longer the case. Yes, in absolute numbers FF is selling as much as ever, but the overall market is much bigger these days and the series has simply not kept up.
Not was, Final Fantasy is one of the biggest video game franchises around. It is literally a bigger franchise than it was in the 90's and early Aughts.
Certain previous entries doing extremely well relative to others well did not negate the continued growth and popularity of Final Fantasy.
The gaming market is bigger and more competitive now, but the Final Fantasy fan base has also grown since then.

The argument is that Final Fantasy as a whole has a lot of its identity because of X or Y reasons. Even though reinvention was baked into the DNA of Final Fantasy arguably since FFII.
This is a bit ironic coming from someone with a FFXII avatar, considering that some of these very same arguments were also levied at FFXII with its different narrative tone and game design.
 

Fredrik

Member
The only problem and the only "crisis" that Final Fantasy XVI has for many is this...

FTiMjnsagAA_Cn5.jpg:large


nothing more
Okay people time to spam shelf pictures to shut down this console war nonsense

usMsJ9p.jpg


People seriously need to understand that there is group of old fans who still prefer old turnbased FF to the new realtime DMC style. It’s not about which plastic box the game is playing, has never been. It’s just a whole other game style and people do have different taste in game styles. Personally I would even prefer turnbased movement, that would be the icing on the cake for me. I might get that through FF Tactics though, but I doubt it’ll have the AAA production value of FF16.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
You have no legit arguments to stand behind so you attack consumers of games you don't like. Let go of your hate for people who enjoy turn based games already.
I’ve been part of the fanbase since the mid 90s. There has ALWAYS been this insufferable vocal minority who want everyone to know how upset they are that FF isn’t the same as the game they played when they were 12, and the turn-based purists make up a big % of those people.

I know exactly how you people are. Sorry if my comments hit close to home.

Perhaps you’re the one who should let go of Final Fantasy. It’s been over 20 years since the last traditional turn based mainline FF game and you have been whining nonstop ever since.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
I stopped at "much like a chess game", I just cant help but laugh at how stupid that is lol
Lol I didn’t make it that far. But he makes a good point. When I play chess I just keep attacking over and over until I win, sometimes while half paying attention and watching some anime at the same time. It’s very deep and strategic, something the gaijin dudebro action gamers can’t wrap their heads around.
 

Meicyn

Gold Member
Lol I didn’t make it that far. But he makes a good point. When I play chess I just keep attacking over and over until I win, sometimes while half paying attention and watching some anime at the same time. It’s very deep and strategic, something the gaijin dudebro action gamers can’t wrap their heads around.
It’s top shelf comedy watching someone equating strength/weakness mechanics as deep as any Pokemon game that six year olds figure out, to chess.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
It’s top shelf comedy watching someone equating strength/weakness mechanics as deep as any Pokemon game that six year olds figure out, to chess.
Lol comparing it to Pokémon is giving it too much credit. At least in Pokémon everyone has their own elemental strengths/weaknesses and you have to put in a tiny bit of thought into putting your team together and swapping the right one in at the right time.

In FF you have no specific elemental weaknesses and you have a full set of direct damage abilities that can hit every weakness and that are identical to each other aside from their elemental affinity. The whole “strategy” is “pick the one that hurts this enemy”. Wowee
 

Nautilus

Banned
Lol comparing it to Pokémon is giving it too much credit. At least in Pokémon everyone has their own elemental strengths/weaknesses and you have to put in a tiny bit of thought into putting your team together and swapping the right one in at the right time.

In FF you have no specific elemental weaknesses and you have a full set of direct damage abilities that can hit every weakness and that are identical to each other aside from their elemental affinity. The whole “strategy” is “pick the one that hurts this enemy”. Wowee
Captain America Lol GIF by mtv


You clearly haven't played any (good) turn based RPG.

And that wasn't even the point I was defending in my text. But do go on, you are entertaining me greatly.
 

gothmog

Gold Member
Final Fantasy has been destroying its reputation slowly for years so who really cares. Anything is better than what they have been doing. I figure they can get ambitious with the main line FFs and pull a Capcom remaking the first 6 games. Hopefully those will be less ambitious than 7 if they do it.
 

Killer8

Member
I basically think the exact opposite. And I don't think it's a stupid phrase to say the series has always been about change. First of all, that's just factually true based on how many different styles and gameplay mechanics the series has experimented with. It's such an old franchise that it's even seen the switch from 2D to 3D. But I also think change is very desirable in a series that is over 35 years old. There will inevitably be some fatigue with any series that lasts that long if it fails to adapt.

One series I look at as a sort of mirror of Final Fantasy is Yakuza. Almost twenty year old franchise, also tried different styles with its spin-offs, but at its core had used the same beat 'em up gameplay for most of the series. Yakuza: Like a Dragon changed from beat 'em up to a turn-based combat style - like Final Fantasy XVI in reverse - and ended up reinvigorating the franchise in many ways despite some of the old guard fans not liking the change. That's fair enough if they didn't like it, but the result was that the series stayed relevant. It also acted as the perfect jumping in point for new blood and Yakuza is now arguably in its best place ever right now. You need new fans to keep series so old alive.

So I don't think the gameplay style actually particularly matters for many of these series. As long as the spirit of the game stays intact. Every indication i've see of FFXVI is that it's the same old Final Fantasy adventure with heroes and crystals and shit like you wanted, but now with Devil May Cry style real-time combat layered on top (which the series had been trending towards for a while anyway). Square Enix appear to be taking it seriously by employing the designer of Devil May Cry 5 and Dragon's Dogma's combat. We probably couldn't ask for a better outcome than that.
 
I’ve been part of the fanbase since the mid 90s. There has ALWAYS been this insufferable vocal minority who want everyone to know how upset they are that FF isn’t the same as the game they played when they were 12, and the turn-based purists make up a big % of those people.

I know exactly how you people are. Sorry if my comments hit close to home.

Perhaps you’re the one who should let go of Final Fantasy. It’s been over 20 years since the last traditional turn based mainline FF game and you have been whining nonstop ever since.
I've said multiple times that I know how FF rolls, and have no problem with it not being turn-based. I was just noticing that every comment you make is directing shit at those that enjoy turn-based gaming. Show us on the doll where the turn-based fans touched you.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
Captain America Lol GIF by mtv


You clearly haven't played any (good) turn based RPG.

And that wasn't even the point I was defending in my text. But do go on, you are entertaining me greatly.
Wow. So your solution to Final Fantasy’s “identity crisis” is…to turn Final Fantasy into a game that plays nothing like any of the other Final Fantasy games?

Dumbest thing I’ve read all week.
 
Character looks is all FFXIII had going for itself though. FFXII was the last great mainline FF title.
You can have your opinion of XIII; I disagree, as I loved it! The only FF I dislike is XV (and MMO’s just personally aren’t my thing).

My point was that this series has beautiful CG cinematics and IMO XVI’s visuals are nowhere near good enough to omit them.
 
You can have your opinion of XIII; I disagree, as I loved it! The only FF I dislike is XV (and MMO’s just personally aren’t my thing).

My point was that this series has beautiful CG cinematics and IMO XVI’s visuals are nowhere near good enough to omit them.
Well, at least we can find common ground on how shit-tastic XV was. As long as FFXVI's gameplay is good, I don't really care about "beautiful CG".
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
But… but… hypothetically they could make Final Fantasy into a deep, strategic, almost chess-like turn-based game (aka nothing like any of the previous games). That would really solve this identity crisis!

I, for one, welcome the turning point in the series where it becomes a point and click FMV game, but we'll start with yours.
 
Benedikta (Bennypoo) will cheat on Barnabas (Barnypoo) and his rage will cause him to crack the Crystal of the Crystalline Dominion, causing it to break and fall, crushing the entire city and producing a tsunami that destroys half of the world.
 
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Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Okay people time to spam shelf pictures to shut down this console war nonsense

usMsJ9p.jpg


People seriously need to understand that there is group of old fans who still prefer old turnbased FF to the new realtime DMC style. It’s not about which plastic box the game is playing, has never been. It’s just a whole other game style and people do have different taste in game styles. Personally I would even prefer turnbased movement, that would be the icing on the cake for me. I might get that through FF Tactics though, but I doubt it’ll have the AAA production value of FF16.

FF hasn't been turnbased longer than it was. If you were a fan, you would have long since realized that you aren't getting turnbsed from FF - but from its spinoffs like Bravely Default or other Square properties like Octopath and DragonQuest. It is time to move on, mate.
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
I was kinda hoping for a looter shooter with some racing sim elements. I think I’ll make a video + 16-paragraph article about it that nobody wants to watch/read. Stay tuned!

Only if you started playing the series from the tenth game, I don't listen to the opinions of people who don't respect the classics from 2001.
 

Fredrik

Member
FF hasn't been turnbased longer than it was. If you were a fan, you would have long since realized that you aren't getting turnbsed from FF - but from its spinoffs like Bravely Default or other Square properties like Octopath and DragonQuest. It is time to move on, mate.
Every new game in the IP is a new chance to return to the roots, it’s changing with every entry.
 

Arsic

Loves his juicy stink trail scent
I think octopath traveller is in a lot of ways the new way of providing a traditional rpg experience FF games have given us over the years .

FF16 I am hesitant on and I enjoyed 13&15, but something seems off on this one.

Still day one.
 

Fredrik

Member
Yet it never changes back to Turn-based. It's time to move on.
Never? Nothing is static with FF, it changed to realtime after being turn-based for 20 years or so, nothing says it can’t change back to turn-based after trying out realtime, and they do know there are people who want that. Maybe next game., we’ll see.
 
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Teletraan1

Banned
For me it has been dead since after x-2. The introduction of automation and removing the ability to directly input commands for party members killed the franchise for me.
 

Gexxy1

Member
Okay, so how much if that series’ appeal is the slow, boring turn based combat? How much is due to being a high school life sim with waifus?

The first two Persona games were more traditional JRPGs and they were pretty niche. Same with mainline SMT, Soul Hackers, SMTxFE, etc. I don’t think your Persona 5 example is proving what you think it proves.

BTW if they were to announce that Persona 6 were getting rid of all the high school/life sim stuff, the fanbase would be pissed and it would probably sell far worse than P5

They aren't boring. Actually I find them more appealing these days than traditional action games, which focus so much on cinematics and QTEs instead of long-lasting gameplay appeal.

Persona 6 hypothetically removing such things would be the same as if Assassin's Creed or Madden or FromSoftware or [insert long-term franchise here] removing aspects that those series are widely known for. These things helped make the series popular. It is not the only reason they were made popular. Imagine if FromSoftware's next game was announced to be easier than Pokemon. I'm sure the fanbase would love that!

The point is that a game being turn-based does not make it a worse game, or one that is somehow going to sell worse, or not be a well-received game. Stuff like Persona 5 and Fire Emblem 3 Houses were critically acclaimed and sold millions of copies. Part of that has to do with the writing, the characters, and setting but...part of that also has to do with the turn-based combat- which has strategic aspects to it and various ways to approach the entire game, and is becoming more unique with how increasingly rarer they are becoming.

With all of that said- on the actual subject of OP, personally I don't think FF necessarily needs to be a turn-based game. I think they have a bigger problem with writing. Those older FF games are widely known as good for their characters and stories, not because they were turn-based. Square has made few modern games that are good in that department. There action-games are hit and miss, but some actually have good combat (VII remake, possibly XVI, XIV, etc). That's their bigger problem IMO.
 
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Felessan

Member
Because from the core foundations that Final Fantasy had as a brand until recently, they are missing two of them, with the only one that Square seems to be honoring and building upon is telling an interesting story.
You are telling a story of someone left behind. Just a reference for you - ff14, which basically a base for ff16 in many aspects, probably bigger that all other ff combined. It's now has a WoW effect, and ff16 is a warcraft4 moment that never happened.

It is amazing how much shine FFXIV gets just because it is an MMO that doesn't have a terrible storyline. Like the game is for sure good and the turnaround is beyond impressive, but FFXIV is absolutely not the best the series has had.
Prior to ff14, ff11 was considered to have epic-level storyline, best in the series and one in the best overall. And ff14 managed to beat it.
And team doing ff16 also did last remnant which has its own (big) bag of faults, but story design and exploration there is epic.
 
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Hydroxy

Member
I don't have an issue with anything as long as it turns out to be a great game. I only wish it would release day and date on PC instead of being timed exclusive
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
FF hasn't been turnbased longer than it was. If you were a fan, you would have long since realized that you aren't getting turnbsed from FF - but from its spinoffs like Bravely Default or other Square properties like Octopath and DragonQuest. It is time to move on, mate.
This is untrue.. they just hide it better. FF15 was ATB. They all have been since 4. I’ve already explained it.
 
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