Support NeoGAF

[Three]

Wait the footage from yesterday's show wasn't ray traced? It definitely looked ray traced, or did they use some super clever reflection solution?

The AMG? Was probably forzavista/photo mode if you're talking about the AMG.

The above is gameplay. The roof fin has no reflection there and the spare tyre doesn't reflect the car or rear brake light (cubemap of the environment only) so not RT in gameplay.

 

[Negotiator101]

Just curious why they didn’t announce a PERF RT mode like insomniac, devs seem talented enough and the power is there.

1440p RT PERF with DRS no worries.
Looks great without it, Demons souls did just fine without RT I think this will too.

Open world native 4k.

 

[Wandering Leopard]

Wait, where are people getting 30fps from? Surely not on the Series X?

4k @ 30 is the 'default' option, but there will be a 60fps option with a lower resolution.

 

[Jigsaah]

Would they enable it for PC? Maybe throw a lil AMD Super resolution in there?

 

[Derift]

im here for the console wars.... that being said i personally dont really care much for RT, but fanboys told me demon souls needed RT and that ps5 was underpowered because they didnt add RT to it so yea im here to remind yall of that

 

[Thedtrain]

Think it looks damn good!

1440p@60 is the sweet spot pls

 

[GHG]

It would have been smarter to just not mention RT rather than say "photo mode only"...

That being said... from reading the thread I don't think people understand that a reflection is redrawing the game world from the perspective of that reflection itself. You can draw a less detailed version of it.... but you're still drawing it twice for 2 perspectives. Then you factor in what needs to be reflecting...

A)the car itself
B)the other cars you're racing against
C)the mirrors on each car
D)the water
E)any glass building or reflective structure in the environment

And then suddenly you're in a scene where you need to draw the game world 9 times from 9 different perspectives in a single frame.

You draw them at various resolutions and detail levels but that is still an extremely tall order. I'm not sure even sure how Gran Turismo or Forza Motorsport will pull it off.

Yep, and with racing games you have multiple fast moving cars that need to have all of those ray traced reflections, it's a huge undertaking.

I'd imagine that what we will see in FM and GT is RT for the player car only (and no ray tracing on any other potentially reflective surfaces like puddles etc) but even that might be a stretch at 60fps. Wouldn't be surprised if all it ends up being is ray tracing in replays and photomode.

It was supposed to be added to assetto corsa competizione but the developers decided to scrap it because they decided it didn't add a worthwhile improvement to the game when in motion - basically it wasn't worth the performance penalty. Demo starts at 3 minutes 16 seconds:

Would they enable it for PC? Maybe throw a lil AMD Super resolution in there?

AMD Super resolution is a driver level enhancement AFAIK, meaning the developers don't need to add it to their games for it to be an option for AMD users?

 

[Jigsaah]

Yep, and with racing games you have multiple fast moving cars that need to have all of those ray traced reflections, it's a huge undertaking.

I'd imagine that what we will see in FM and GT is RT for the player car only (and no ray tracing on any other potentially reflective surfaces like puddles etc) but even that might be a stretch at 60fps. Wouldn't be surprised if all it ends up being is ray tracing in replays and photomode.

It was supposed to be added to assetto corsa competizione but the developers decided to scrap it because they decided it didn't add a worthwhile improvement to the game when in motion - basically it wasn't worth the performance penalty. Demo starts at 3 minutes 16 seconds:





AMD Super resolution is a driver level enhancement AFAIK, meaning the developers don't need to add it to their games for it to be an option for AMD users?

Even if thats so, doesn't the user need to turn it on? Sorta like DLSS is in pretty much all cases?

 

[Turk1993]

The ray tracing in Forzavista looks insane, it has reflection of reflection in reflections. Its too heavy for gameplay, maybe they could turn it down a little bit and use only 1 bounce of reflection without reflections reflecting in reflections. I mean look at this and its in full res

 

[ABrokenToy]

The ray tracing in Forzavista looks insane, it has reflection of reflection in reflections. Its too heavy for gameplay, maybe they could turn it down a little bit and use only 1 bounce of reflection without reflections reflecting in reflections. I mean look at this and its in full res

Also, they said today in the developer interview, the reflections are full resolution as well. Insane.

 

[GHG]

Even if thats so, doesn't the user need to turn it on? Sorta like DLSS is in pretty much all cases?

Yeh but you should be able to do it in your driver settings.

With DLSS it needs to be enabled on the developers end. They send a build of the game to nvidia, they run it through their supercomputers to get a bunch of data points and then send that data back to the devs to include in their game. Then when you enable DLSS in your game the GPU's tensor cores use the data points provided to upscale the image on the fly.

What nvidia is doing is far more complex than AMD's solution, hence unfortunately it's not an option for every game.

 

[01011001]

The ray tracing in Forzavista looks insane, it has reflection of reflection in reflections. Its too heavy for gameplay, maybe they could turn it down a little bit and use only 1 bounce of reflection without reflections reflecting in reflections. I mean look at this and its in full res

holy shit... yeah at least 2-3 bounces and full resolution it seems. makes me wonder how Forza Vista will perform then... they clearly can't have this during gameplay, so it must have a big performance cost

really makes you wonder if 1 bounce at quarter res wouldn't work during gameplay. seems to work for GT7, which runs reflections at 1080cb, so quater res AND that even checkerboarded (basically 1/8 res)... still looks good.

 

[assurdum]

Wut? Raytracing just in photomode? Is it a joke? Shouldn't be Series X more suited for raytracing than ps5? I don't get it.

 

[assurdum]

The ray tracing in Forzavista looks insane, it has reflection of reflection in reflections. Its too heavy for gameplay, maybe they could turn it down a little bit and use only 1 bounce of reflection without reflections reflecting in reflections. I mean look at this and its in full res

I mean it's a photomode. Of course they can do such things. Now if we want to celebrate higher setting on photomode mode, I risk to lose my mind.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Does RayTracing make sense for an open world racer? Seems like it would be processing hell.

 

[Mr Moose]

Wait, where are people getting 30fps from? Surely not on the Series X?

Link in the OP:

Q: How does Forza Horizon 5 perform on Xbox Series X|S?
A: On Xbox Series X Forza Horizon 5 will feature 4K resolution at 30fps, on Xbox Series S Forza Horizon 5 will play at 1080p resolution at 30fps. Both platforms will feature a performance mode that runs at 60fps.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Traditionally, yes. But traditionally, the One X was running at 4K30 and One S at 1080/30. Here, we have the Series X running it at 4K30, a vastly superior console to the One X. We have the Series S running it at 1080/30, a vastly superior console to the One S. That makes me very very sceptical that they can get it to run 1080/30 on One S.

Oh, don't get me wrong, maybe this is the release where it dips, who knows. But from locked 1080p to below 720p seems extreme.

I expect there will be a stark difference between generations, but it might not all be resolution.

 

[Calverz]

If only Microsoft didnt rush and end up with an RDNA 1.5 GPU.

If only Arsenal didn’t kick out wenger they’d still be finishing top 4…..

 

[Three]

The ray tracing in Forzavista looks insane, it has reflection of reflection in reflections. Its too heavy for gameplay, maybe they could turn it down a little bit and use only 1 bounce of reflection without reflections reflecting in reflections. I mean look at this and its in full res

Glad you're finally posting photomode shots without the negativity.

 

[assurdum]

Does RayTracing make sense for an open world racer? Seems like it would be processing hell.

? What could change if it's an open world? Anyway it's a very limited open world. It's not surely as RDR2.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

? What could change if it's an open world?

Running 140MPH through crazy variety of terrains including water.

 

[GHG]

Wut? Raytracing just in photomode? Is it a joke? Shouldn't be Series X more suited for raytracing than ps5? I don't get it.

It's nothing to do with one thing being more suited than another for the task.

Pretty much every surface on the exterior of a car is reflective in some way, its not something that would be easy to optimise in a way that doesn't tank the framerate during gameplay.

 

[Jigsaah]

Yeh but you should be able to do it in your driver settings.

With DLSS it needs to be enabled on the developers end. They send a build of the game to nvidia, they run it through their supercomputers to get a bunch of data points and then send that data back to the devs to include in their game. Then when you enable DLSS in your game the GPU's tensor cores use the data points provided to upscale the image on the fly.

What nvidia is doing is far more complex than AMD's solution, hence unfortunately it's not an option for every game.

Ok I gotcha. Didn't know that. So basically if it doesn't come with DLSS support, I may still be able to do Super Resolution in the drivers. Only problem is, if that's the only way to do it, raytracing would still remain only within Forzavistas.

 

[assurdum]

holy shit... yeah at least 2-3 bounces and full resolution it seems. makes me wonder how Forza Vista will perform then... they clearly can't have this during gameplay, so it must have a big performance cost

really makes you wonder if 1 bounce at quarter res wouldn't work during gameplay. seems to work for GT7, which runs reflections at 1080cb, so quater res AND that even checkerboarded (basically 1/8 res)... still looks good.

The hell you are talking about. GT7 raytracing It's native 1080p reconstructed 4k CBR.

 

[GHG]

If only Arsenal didn’t kick out wenger they’d still be finishing top 4…..

Leave arsenal out of this.

 

[assurdum]

It's nothing to do with one thing being more suited than another for the task.

Pretty much every surface on the exterior of a car is reflective in some way, its not something that would be easy to optimise in a way that doesn't tank the framerate during gameplay.

You can choose how to limit raytracing reflections. The fact it's like this in photomode doesn't changes what raytracing you can use in game.

 

[01011001]

The hell you are talking about. It's native 1080p reconstructed 4k CBR.

plz stop... another one who doesn't know how checkerboarding works -_- how long has it been since the first game using it came out? and yet, in a ""gaming forum"" you still have to explain that something like "native 1080p reconstructed 4K CBR" is not a thing... this sentence makes no sense.

the reflections in GT7 are rendered at 960x1080 using CB to create a 1080p (1920x1080) reflection (not literally, but if you'd fill the whole screen with an RT reflection, like when you'd zoom into a car real close, that's the resolution it would be). the rasterized parts of GT7 run at 4K. making the resolutions 1/8 res natively and 1/4 after being reconstructed to 1080p

 

[Three]

It's nothing to do with one thing being more suited than another for the task.

Pretty much every surface on the exterior of a car is reflective in some way, its not something that would be easy to optimise in a way that doesn't tank the framerate during gameplay.

You could go dynamic or lower res with RT.

 

[GHG]

You can choose how to limit raytracing reflections. The fact it's like this in photomode doesn't changes what raytracing you can use in game.

Yep and it still isn't worth the performance cost over screen space in something as fast paced as a racing game.

 

[abacab driver]

Cut back to 30fps for 4k in XSX??

Okay yeah no wonder this looked so impressive.

That was actually the 60 fps performance mode.

 

[assurdum]

plz stop... another one who doesn't know how checkerboarding works -_- how long has it been since the first game using it came out? and yet, in a ""gaming forum"" you still have to explain that something like "native 1080p reconstructed 4K CBR" is not a thing... this sentence makes no sense.

the reflections in GT7 are rendered at 960x1080 using CB to create a 1080p image. the rasterized parts of GT7 run at 4K. making the resolutions 1/8 res natively and 1/4 after being reconstructed to 1080p

Where did you get it such data? From what we know native resolution of raytraycing is a quarter of 4k in GT7 and Spiderman Morales. It's not absolutely 1/8. You can check DF if you want.

 

[01011001]

Yep and it still isn't worth the performance cost over screen space in something as fast paced as a racing game.

the cars don't actually use screenspace reflections in Forza, they use a reflection probe which creates a reflection map in real time. the quality of objects etc. in the reflections are reduced of course. for big back windows, like on a Jeep, the games add an aditional render to texture reflection to that window. for water, Horizon 3 used planar reflections, but sadly with Horizon 4 they switched to sceenspace. BUT in 5 it looks like planar reflections at first glance, but hard to tell from the videos shown

 

[assurdum]

Yep and it still isn't worth the performance cost over screen space in something as fast paced as a racing game.

If ps5 can handle it in GT7 not sure why it's not worth the cost on series X in a similar game

 

[01011001]

Where did you get it such data? From what we know native resolution of raytraycing is a quarter of 4k in GT7 and Spiderman Morales. It's not absolutely 1/8.

Digital Foundry looked at high quality captures and has shown where you can see CB artifacts in the reflections

(watch here for about 20 to 30 sec)


you see sawtooth edges, which clearly indicates checkerboarding. making the nativ res of the reflections 1/8 of 4K

 

[assurdum]

Digital Foundry looked at high quality captures and has shown where you can see CB artifacts in the reflections

(watch here for about 20 to 30 sec)

Yes. And what native resolution they said for raytracing?

 

[01011001]

Yes. And what native resolution they said for raytracing?

if it is quarter res (which in this case is 1080p), which is also checkerboarded to reach quarter res, the only resolution it can be is 960x1080, because that's how checkerboarding works. it uses 1/2 of the horizontal pixels, which is then reconstructed to a full 1920x1080 grid

 

[assurdum]

if it is quarter res (which in this case is 1080p), which is also checkerboarded to reach quarter res, the only resolution it can be is 960x1080, because that's how checkerboarding works. it uses 1/2 of the horizontal pixels, which is then reconstructed to a full 1920x1080 grid

No. CBR is used to render higher resolution than 1080p, close to 4k. CBR is not used to reach 1080p, you have completely misunderstood.

 

[Reindeer]

If ps5 can handle it in GT7 not sure why it's not worth the cost on series X in a similar game

You comparing a track racer to an open world one. By this logic Horizon Forbidden World should have ray tracing because Rift Apart had it, but that's not how it works. You should rather compare GT7 to Forza Motorsport 8 which will have RT.

 

[01011001]

No. CBR is used to render higher resolution than 1080p close to 4k.

I am... at a loss for words now tbh... what does that even mean?
are we on a gaming forum? is this real? or just fantasy?

 

[GHG]

If ps5 can handle it in GT7 not sure why it's not worth the cost on series X in a similar game

Different games. FH has to spend a lot of its performance budget on the environment rendering.

 

[MonarchJT]

Wut? Raytracing just in photomode? Is it a joke? Shouldn't be Series X more suited for raytracing than ps5? I don't get it.

it is. is just that the game is demanding.....is a nextgen openworld racer and honestly during gameplay in a racing game the rt is really a bit useless. btw Motorsport will have rt just like gt7

 

[Fake]

It's a photomode where you can place cars in various vistas in the game.

Alex saved.

 

[assurdum]

I am... at a loss for words now tbh... what does that even mean?
are we on a gaming forum? is this real? or just fantasy?

More simple: you don't have a clue of what you are talking about. 1080CBR in a 4k picture would be a disaster in terms of sharpness and artifacts

 

[01011001]

More simple: you don't have a clue of what you are talking about. 1080CBR in a 4k picture would be a disaster in terms of sharpness and artifacts

DUDE... THE FUCKING VIDEO PROVES IT! literally...
in the closeup in the linked video you can see him pixelcounting the reflections. the initial count comes in at what would be the equivalent of a 1920x1080 grid, then in motion, this breaks up and reveals sawtooth artifacts... meaning, it is not native 1920x1080 but in fact 960x1080 which uses CBR to construct a 1920x1080 grid

every person with even the slightest hint of knowledge when it comes to detecting CBR and how CBR works will look at this, and agree with me and the video

 

[assurdum]

You comparing a track racer to an open world one. By this logic Horizon Forbidden World should have ray tracing because Rift Apart had it, but that's not how it works.

If only Horizon 2 wasn't developed on PS4 and then ported on ps5...

 

[01011001]

If only Horizon 2 wasn't developed on PS4 and then ported on ps5...

Forza Horizon 5 is in development since Horizon 4 launched and was clearly first developed as an Xbox One title, and I am slowly but surely starting to think you are trolling... you have to be...

 

[Reindeer]

If only Horizon 2 wasn't developed on PS4 and then ported on ps5...

I thought Guerilla said they developed it to take advantage of PS5? Or should we believe you? And isn't Horizon 5 also on Xbox One? Regardless, you're dreaming if you think these underpowered consoles are doing next gen open world games with RT.

 

[assurdum]

DUDE... THE FUCKING VIDEO PROVES IT! literally...
in the closeup in the linked video you can see him pixelcounting the reflections. the initial count comes in at what would be the equivalent of a 1920x1080 grid, then in motion, this breaks up and reveals sawtooth artifacts... meaning, it is not native 1920x1080 but in fact 960x1080 which uses CBR to construct a 1920x1080 grid

every person with even the slightest hint of knowledge when it comes to detecting CBR and how CBR works will look at this, and agree with me and the video

The caveat is that these reflected elements run at a lowered resolution of circa-1080p in this trailer. It ends up giving portions of the screen an aliased look, within an overall higher-res picture, with almost checkerboard-esque artefact

1080p circa is the base resolution. Via CBR is higher. Clear?

 

[assurdum]

I thought Guerilla said they developed it to take advantage of PS5? Or should we believe you? And isn't Horizon 5 also on Xbox One? Regardless, you're dreaming if you think these underpowered consoles are doing next gen open world games with RT.

They said to have developed the game primarily on PS4 and used the ps5 extrapower to improve the other graphic stuff. Open world game doesn't changes by much the cost of raytraycing, maybe the dynamic daylight time but relatively. Why some of you persist with this argument.

 

[Yoboman]

My expectations is we will actually see less ray tracing as the gen goes on, maybe with it making a reappearance once the mid gen refreshes come along

Until full path tracing is inexpensive and can be done in consoles then there are more important areas to spend your graphics bandwidth

Demons Souls didn't have a lick of Ray tracing but the lighting was still the highlight