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[zoku88]

Two of those games are pandering fanboy nonsense, Last Rebellion looks terrible, and the last thing we need is Yet Another Tales game, if Namco even bothers localizing it.

translation: because I don't like these games, the genre is either dying/stagnating?

 

[Dennis]

sugoi monogatari, aniki

This post is generating lots of :lol , apparently.

But I don't get it. What does it mean?

Anybody care to enlighten someone not well enough versed in japanese to get this joke?

 

[Sadist]

I think having towns enriches the world of the game and can do a lot to really establish the setting. One of FFX's strongest points were its towns and settlements, not because there were items to find or shops to hit, but because it really helped "sell" Spira.

From what I've heard, FFXIII resorts to an in-game encyclopedia to build its world. That's lazy and ineffective, iin my opinion.

Word of advice, watch out for Moonblade.

Anyway, I tend to agree with Segata. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but everytime when I visit a town/city in a J-RPG it's one of the more interesting things to do. In the better RPG's, towns always have things to do, side-quests to complete or maybe funny scenes. I like those things in these types of games.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Two of those games are pandering fanboy nonsense, Last Rebellion looks terrible, and the last thing we need is Yet Another Tales game, if Namco even bothers localizing it.

Are you saying Final Fantasy isn't fanboy nonesense?

I'm not even trying to separate good games and bad games here. I'm just proving they still exist and that the genre is actually healthier than its been in recent years.

 

[andymcc]

Are you saying Final Fantasy isn't fanboy nonesense?

I'm not even trying to separate good games and bad games here. I'm just proving they still exist and that the genre is actually healthier than its been in recent years.

the guy you're talking to knows a lot more about rpgs than you do and i'd just give up if i were you.

 

[Rancid Mildew]

EA's Simpsons game does a good job of portraying my view of JRPGs.

You playing EA's Simpsons game and using it as a point of discussion for this topic does a good job of portraying my view of you as a poster.

 

[rpmurphy]

This post is generating lots of :lol , apparently.

But I don't get it. What does it mean?

Anybody care to enlighten someone not well enough versed in japanese to get this joke?

It's a haphazard translation of "cool story, bro."

 

[Dennis]

It's a haphazard translation of "cool story, bro."

Ah, thanks bro.

 

[ChoklitReign]

They just need to do something different like Demon's Soul. The less stereotypes, the better. More marketing would help, too, especially for Atlus.

 

[pancakesandsex]

Then do tell us why the markets are mostly unrelated as you seem to be claiming? The point is because they share artistic (and thematic) similarities, they attract the same audience, which brings the argument back into full circle. There are obviously multiple reasons for the shrinking market and the decline of anime/manga is far from the biggest one, but to claim there's no correlation is totally blind.

There have been some decent selling RPGs outside of the Final Fantasy series - Chrono Trigger/Cross, Xenogears (and Saga, the first one, anyway), Star Ocean Till the End of Time, Tales of Symphonia (only that one, though), even Dragon Quest VIII sold pretty well. None of these were ever million sellers like the Mass Effects or Fallout 3s of today but it's not always been niche as people seem to be claiming.

Because if the anime buying audience was as large as the jrpg buying audience, then several dead companies would still be around. You still don't seem to understand the difference between buying and watching. Anime watching isn't in a decline, anime buying is. In addition to that, the overlap between people who would consider themselves an anime fan and those who would consider themselves a jrpg fan don't overlap as much as you would think. There are many people on this board even who play jrpgs religiously who don't want anything to do with cartoons.

 

[truly101]

Because if the anime buying audience was as large as the jrpg buying audience, then several dead companies would still be around. You still don't seem to understand the difference between buying and watching. Anime watching isn't in a decline, anime buying is. In addition to that, the overlap between people who would consider themselves an anime fan and those who would consider themselves a jrpg fan don't overlap as much as you would think. There are many people on this board even who play jrpgs religiously who don't want anything to do with cartoons.

This is true. I love JRPGs and hate Anime.....'cept Ninja Scroll.

 

[charlequin]

The problem is that Japanese RPG publishers are trying to bridge the western markets with the Japanese market, and they can't do that while still pushing teenage RPGs.

The exact same people spend the vast majority of money on videogames in both Japan and the US: 18-35 year old males. The "issue" here, inasmuch as there is one (and largely there is not) is entirely based on two points:

• Japan's overall market is small and shrinking, while the full Western market is significantly larger and growing
• What 18-35 year old males in Japan find cool has diverged sufficiently from what 18-35 year old males in the West find cool that selling well to one is not, broadly, a good strategy for selling well to the other.

The idea that there's a maturity gap in the consumption of these products -- rather than a trend where the same guys who in Japan find concepts of youth, fashion, bright colors, etc. cool find age/experience, darkness, etc. cool in the West -- is one of the more delusional myths that comes up in these threads.

For people who don't like portables, the author is right on the money.

So a more appropriate headline would be something like "Picky Eaters Starve to Death at Well-Appointed Buffet"?

sugoi monogatari, aniki

OMG, unfuckingbelievable. :lol

 

[WanderingWind]

Holy hell, didn't we just have this thread a couple of weeks ago?

Either way, it's hard to agree with him when FFXIII, if successful could spawn a whole new wave in the JRPG on consoles.

Also, I can't really think of any genre that's truly died. Slowed down, sure. Die? Nah.

 

[charlequin]

Then do tell us why the markets are mostly unrelated as you seem to be claiming? The point is because they share artistic (and thematic) similarities, they attract the same audience, which brings the argument back into full circle.

But the truth of the matter is that their audience is not the same audience -- it overlaps, certainly, but not to a degree that's particularly worthy of exploration, especially given the second issue:

but to claim there's no correlation is totally blind.

You really need to stop ignoring the point that's being made to you here, which is that the decline of anime/manga in the US is not a factor of popularity. There aren't fewer people consuming these things, there's just an unsupportable market strategy that was overtaken by rampant downloading.

None of these were ever million sellers like the Mass Effects or Fallout 3s of today but it's not always been niche as people seem to be claiming.

I think your post comes very close to successfully identifying every non-FF, non-KH JRPG that has ever sold over 400k in the US. That should indicate how infrequent an occurrence this is and therefore how non-weird it is to not have any such hits yet this generation.

 

[pancakesandsex]

Holy hell, didn't we just have this thread a couple of weeks ago?

Either way, it's hard to agree with him when FFXIII, if successful could spawn a whole new wave in the JRPG on consoles.

Also, I can't really think of any genre that's truly died. Slowed down, sure. Die? Nah.

I think people tend to forget the incredible speedbump that a generational switch can have on these games given their scope etc. DS is getting the flood because it's been available the longest, and it's the most popular system out there. the HD twins are JUST hitting their stride and you'll begin seeing entries more regularly from here on out. Jrpgs have always been end of console life heavy, it's just that the transition to the latest 3 consoles has been a little slower than last time AND the transition was from the behemoth ps2 which had an exceptional number of titles in its last 5 years.

 

[Tellaerin]

The one console game they released that breached expectations was FFXII - and predictably the otaku and Final Fantasy fetishists recoiled in horror. The game still sold well; over four million copies or something. But rather than forge ahead and work on expanding their audience using FFXII as a foothold, Square has retreated in panic with FFXIII and their other games. Back to business as usual. Even if it means their audience is slowly shrinking.

I was really disappointed with FF XII, and I don't think I could be described as an 'otaku' or 'Final Fantasy fetishist'. The localization was top-notch, with well-written dialogue and solid voice work, but that couldn't compensate for what I felt was a really dull cast. The gambit system reminded me of those edu-games designed to teach programming skills, where you 'snap together' keywords to program a virtual battle-bot, then watch it fight in an arena. It wasn't much fun to do, and the automation factor made most fights pretty dull. It's a pity, because I thought the setting was great, and I liked the art direction and overall presentation. I just couldn't bring myself to care about the characters and their situation, and the gameplay wasn't enjoyable enough to do the heavy lifting in the absence of an engaging cast.

 

[grandjedi6]

I find it weird that everyone keeps assuming that everything Japanese is in decline just because anime DVD sales are. In reality, manga sales were steadly rising until last year and 2008's decline is attributed to the recession and other factors rather than a "dislike" of Japanese or anything. And of course the claims of JRPGs decline are dubious at best as they seem to be based more on a rosetinted perception of the PS2/PS1 and a fallicious argument about current titles, rather than actual data. Hell, even Japanese trading cards are up.

I mean seriously, how can one claim that Japanese made RPGs are in decline when there is no seeable decline in sales? Oh yeah, I remember now, by conviently ignoring any titles that sell well and/or progress beyond the typical.

 

[RurouniZel]

stuff

I agree with most of this.

And I give you points for your awesome avatar of Lord Kuruku!

 

[cosmicblizzard]

the guy you're talking to knows a lot more about rpgs than you do and i'd just give up if i were you.

I feel really stupid for asking but is this sarcasm? My meter's been broken all day since the metal got messed up in the mountains.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

I mean seriously, how can one claim that Japanese made RPGs are in decline when there is no seeable decline in sales? Oh yeah, I remember now, by conviently ignoring any titles that sell well and/or progress beyond the typical.

I love that he didn't even MENTION Bowser's Inside Story, which is about as JRPG ass JRPG as you can get, brought a bunch of awesome to the table, and charted in the NPD top 10 to boot.

 

[D3RANG3D]

You forgot Risen and Mask of the Betrayer.

The games I listed I actually played...

 

[Fredescu]

The games I listed I actually played...

If you liked those games you should definitely play Risen and MoTB.

 

[Jcgamer60]

I love that he didn't even MENTION Bowser's Inside Story, which is about as JRPG ass JRPG as you can get, brought a bunch of awesome to the table, and charted in the NPD top 10 to boot.

A mario game selling. *shock and awe*

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

A mario game selling. *shock and awe*

And here come the excuses.

 

[firehawk12]

It's a haphazard translation of "cool story, bro."

That came up in an OT thread, of course. :lol

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I feel really stupid for asking but is this sarcasm? My meter's been broken all day since the metal got messed up in the mountains.

Discoalucard is the guy that runs the Hardcore Gaming 101 site, and is indeed a very knowledgeable guy. He is also a human being, and thus prone to the failings we all suffer from. He has his biases and preferences. He's certainly shown to have an axe to grind with portable gaming and non-HD gaming (ironically enough) this gen.

At any rate, no matter how knowledgeable a person is, one should never feel compelled to silence themselves in a conversation with them. Knowledgeable people can be wrong, too, and if no one ever tells them, you end up with Star Wars Episode 1.

 

[ethelred]

Hey guys, the JRPG is dying because the DS isn't a real thing.

That seems to be a popular viewpoint amongst certain quarters.

Inazuma Eleven? What's that? That's not a thing.

That's that game on the DS, right? So it doesn't count, even though once it goes platinum in Japan in a few weeks, it'll be the first new RPG franchise to have done so since 1999.

The only thing I don't care for is its sensationalist title, because it's hardly dying, but it is shrinking.

It isn't shrinking. It shrunk. That occurred, for the most part, towards the end of the PS2 era.

Otherwise most of the ideas are pretty sound. The fact that people are listing DS titles as evidence that the genre is alive and healthy perfectly points out the problem - portable platforms are still ultimately viewed as for kids, and it's always going to feel like a step backward compared to console games.

The fact that people are listing the DS as evidence that the genre is still alive does not, in fact, perfectly point out the problem. I get that there's a certain segment of vocally whiny Americans who really hate the thing, but truth is that it's the most popular and successful gaming device in Japanese history, and by the time it's done, it'll have moved more million selling games than any other system. And sheesh, not to mention the total software it's sold.

It's successful in Japan. Right now, it's the most successful system this generation in Japan. It's appealing to people of lots of different ages (and of both genders) and so it's pretty natural that a lot of publishers have gravitated towards it. And yes, believe it or not, RPGs have largely been successful on it. As successful as they were on the PS2? Well, no, because there was a decline as the overall Japanese market shrunk -- RPGs on the PS2 weren't as successful as they were on the PSX, which was the high water mark. But despite the shrinkages (which are pretty slight, overall, given the success many RPGs have seen), the genre is not at risk of failing; it's still very much alive and healthy. I get that it sucks for you. I get that you seethe at the fact that the Japanese consumers (and appropriately, the developers who are serving the desires of their consumer audience) have prioritized something different in game development than you and the, oh, three successful western RPG publishers have. But that does not negate the existence of these games or the continued success and stability of the genre.

It's obviously not just for kids, and it isn't seen as a step back there (and neither is the PSP) because right now their market is looking for a different hardware and software experience than what is provided by the Xbox 360 and the PS3. But that doesn't mean that those two systems won't offer a (hopefully stellar) lineup of RPGs of their own -- because the genre is still alive enough and healthy enough that right now it can support this secondary plane of games on totally different hardware.

(it's not just the DS, by the way -- I would also highlight Persona 4, Persona 3 Portable, and Phantasy Star Portable as expansionary titles. you know what all three of those have in common? they're SD. suck on it.)

the guy you're talking to knows a lot more about rpgs than you do and i'd just give up if i were you.

This is, like, the most amateurish appeal to authority I've ever seen. And the appeal falls a little bit flat when it boils down to "listen to the dude when he proselytizes for people to play awesome old games that look like X but says it's terrrrrrible for people to play awesome new games that also look like X because it's such a huge step back."

A mario game selling. *shock and awe*

Sure, it sold well because it's got Mario on the box. And Dragon Quest IX sold well because hey, it's Dragon Quest. But Bowser's Inside Story is, in Japan, the most successful Mario RPG since the SNES ushered in the first installment, and Dragon Quest IX is the most successful Dragon Quest, period. The franchise names are at the root of the success these games have seen, but obviously it goes deeper than that, or they wouldn't be expanding their audience beyond what has been achieved by previous entries -- and such expansion is a sure sign of a dying genre, right?

 

[Snipes424]

I wish more JRPGS would follow the Demon's Souls route, because that game is awesome.

 

[Drkirby]

I don't even have a DS...but...what?

 

[GillianSeed79]

I never said it didn't sell to adults (at least in Japan). My point is that for them to appeal to adults in the west they would have to change DQ. But there's no reason for them to do that because they know their base and they know that it's a really huge base.

As an adult, an old one by gaming standards, the reason DQ appeals to me as an adult is because it's so old-school. It embodies what JRPG's were pre-FFVII.

It has a simple battle system, heavy exploration, whimsical setting and simple plot.

You don't have to worry about learning a new god damn non-sensical battle system or level system every one you buy. In DQ you have HP and MP and if you kill enough enemies you gain a level. That's it. The plot is just there because the game is more fun/ important than the story.

It basically appeals to my inner kid like SMB does.

Now is that what i want all the time in an RPG? Of course not, but I still enjoy that kind of game

 

[ZephyrFate]

JRPGs died almost 10 years ago. They have been recycling their ideas for the last 20 years.

It is a good thing... makes Japanese developers think about new stuff. Look at Demon's Soul... how awesome is that?



Errrr??? That is just wrong.

And wRPGs have not also been recycling their own ideas from almost 10 years ago?

 

[HK-47]

Inazuma Eleven? What's that? That's not a thing.

Silly, things dont exist.

 

[HK-47]

These features were praised when Bioware did it with Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Of course, when Lost Odyssey did it, people bashed it. Hmm...

Oh I seem to remember still wandering around towns and talking to people. My mistake, must have been a different game where the encyclopedia was supplemental and not the sole source of backstory and world info.

 

[Gravijah]

And wRPGs have not also been recycling their own ideas from almost 10 years ago?

HEY GUYS SOMEONE INSULTED JRPGS, QUICK BETTER INSULT WRPGS! THAT'LL SHOW THEM!

 

[HK-47]

HEY GUYS SOMEONE INSULTED JRPGS, QUICK BETTER INSULT WRPGS! THAT'LL SHOW THEM!

Your mom.

 

[Gravijah]

Your mom.

...

...

...

8(

 

[Kintaro]

Oh I seem to remember still wandering around towns and talking to people. My mistake, must have been a different game where the encyclopedia was supplemental and not the sole source of backstory and world info.

The towns and people are pretty bland in those two games. =/ I actually liked the encyclopedias better. :lol

 

[HK-47]

The towns and people are pretty bland in those two games. =/ I actually liked the encyclopedias better. :lol

Citadel was awesome. Noveria was pretty good too, but Bioware has always put most of their effort into the first major world.

However, at least you can experience these places is my point. Most of the backstory is dedicated to stuff like explaining element zero's effect on life, spaceship info, political backstory...stuff that would seem forced in a dialogue tree.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The towns and people are pretty bland in those two games. =/ I actually liked the encyclopedias better. :lol

At least ME had 2 major cities, the citadel especially has a lot of stuff to do, although they seem a bit lifeless, and remember that some entries were to expand the themes that you can get in the wheel conversations, so you don't even need the encyclopedia to grasp the general facts about the world,races culture,history, etc...

And probably I'll enjoy FFXIII for what it is, but is not the same thing...

 

[Night_Trekker]

As an adult, an old one by gaming standards, the reason DQ appeals to me as an adult is because it's so old-school. It embodies what JRPG's were pre-FFVII.

It has a simple battle system, heavy exploration, whimsical setting and simple plot.

You don't have to worry about learning a new god damn non-sensical battle system or level system every one you buy. In DQ you have HP and MP and if you kill enough enemies you gain a level. That's it. The plot is just there because the game is more fun/ important than the story.

Thank you for articulating why I love (and will always love) Dragon Quest.

 

[avatar299]

Meanwhile, the Transformers toys are all being bought up by 20-30 year olds.

Though I'm surprised someone around my age has time for RPGs. I definitely don't.

No, they are not. 20-30 yr olds buy overpriced toys and create a niche for themselves in a niche market.

Why do westerners even give a crap about jrpgs? You don't like them, fucking congrats

 

[Sipowicz]

kind of what i expect from gamasutra. their small minded mentality is typical of videogame websites in the US and something i've noticed in their articles before. they'll only recognise certain platforms as "legitimate" and discount any games that aren't on these platforms. this shitty fanboy rant against rpgs was kind of inevitable given what platforms they tend to be on

this gen has been very good for RPGs imo, loads of really cool new stuff. although the new dragon quest and final fantasy are not supposed to be very good there's a ton of other stuff that is and a lot of smaller companies have really made a mark like level 5 and image epoch. personally i'm loving it

he's right about one thing though, the DS fad will soon be over. trust me dawgs, this time next year the DS will be done

zelda is an rpg?

no, but we cant go questioning gamasutra or their "JRPG scholar"

 

[Dennis]

he's right about one thing though, the DS fad will soon be over. trust me dawgs, this time next year the DS will be done

I am assuming this is sarcasm?

The DS will be done when Nintendo launches its successor.

 

[Fersis]

I like Gamasutra's Post Mortem ,but lately its all about iPhone and indies. Kind of boring for me.
Its cool, it surely helps lots of people.

 

[discoalucard]

Are you saying Final Fantasy isn't fanboy nonesense?

I specifically meant otaku fanboy nonsense, in the case of pretty much anything that comes out of Gust.

You really need to stop ignoring the point that's being made to you here, which is that the decline of anime/manga in the US is not a factor of popularity. There aren't fewer people consuming these things, there's just an unsupportable market strategy that was overtaken by rampant downloading.

I don't understand that when developers blame the stagnating PC gaming market on piracy, it's seen as ridiculous, but when it happens to anime/manga, it's generally accepted? It definitely accounts to a decline, but it can't possibly account for all of it.

Discoalucard is the guy that runs the Hardcore Gaming 101 site, and is indeed a very knowledgeable guy. He is also a human being, and thus prone to the failings we all suffer from. He has his biases and preferences. He's certainly shown to have an axe to grind with portable gaming and non-HD gaming (ironically enough) this gen.

I don't have anything against non-HD stuff, but yeah, I do have something against portable gaming, because there's no other way to spin it, it's a downgrade. I'm sick of playing ports and spin-offs, and I'm sick of playing stuff with PSOne quality 3D. The only portable RPGs I enjoyed the past year were Devil Survivor, 7th Dragon and Ys 7, the latter of which I still would've preferred on the PC.

It's successful in Japan. Right now, it's the most successful system this generation in Japan.

It makes perfect business sense WHY they're going portable this gen. But it doesn't appeal to me, personally, and the attitude towards portables is different in America than in Japan, so naturally the reaction here is going to be "Oh, JRPGs are dying." They aren't really, but they are going in a direction that a lot of people just don't like, and I think that's perfectly rational.

 

[Cartman86]

Get the new generation of kids into RPG's. Pokemon should've done that already. It's reall the fault of the games. Just not a particularly great quantity of quality out there.

 

[KongRudi]

Of the JRPG I plan to get, I've got White Knight Chronicles coming in one and a half month, FF13 in two months on PS3.. :-/
And ater that Valkyria Chronicles 2 on PSP..
FF14 and FF13 versus is supposed to be coming in 2010 aswell, so it's kind of bad timing for such a article..

 

[ethelred]

I specifically meant otaku fanboy nonsense, in the case of pretty much anything that comes out of Gust.

Okay, but it's otaku fanboy nonsense that up until the past few years had never left Japan. And yet right now Americans can pretty reliably count on most installments in that series, or any other series Gust makes, coming over to the US. Surely if the otaku market were withering so quickly this would not be the case?

I'm sick of playing ports and spin-offs, and I'm sick of playing stuff with PSOne quality 3D.

I replayed Vagrant Story not so long ago. I replayed Shining the Holy Ark earlier this year. I recently imported Soul Hackers. I've got Grandia and DQ7 permanently loaded onto my PSP, and I've been itching to do replays of Final Fantasies 8 and 9.

I guess I'm not so sick of this stuff.

The only portable RPGs I enjoyed the past year were Devil Survivor, 7th Dragon and Ys 7, the latter of which I still would've preferred on the PC.

Your loss. This year I enjoyed Devil Survivor, Valkyrie Profile Tactics, Crimson Gem Saga, Knights in the Nightmare, and Bowser's Inside Story (which I ranked #2 in my GOTY list right below Dragon Age). Not to mention Dragon Quest V -- you can fill your cheerios bowl to the brim with tears about how it's a port and you're so sick of them; I'll be enjoying going through the game with its first official English translation (and a stellar one at that). Next year, I'm looking forward to Sands of Destruction (in two weeks, no less), Infinite Space, Shin Megami Tensei, 7th Dragon, Dragon Quest IX, Inazuma Eleven, Golden Sun 3, Etrian Odyssey 3, Valkyrie of the Battlefield 2, and if Christmas miracles do come true, stuff like Ninokuni and Final Fantasy Agito. I don't know when Level-5 will get back to Ushiro, but I'm pretty eager to play that, too.

You see this as a genre in stagnation and taking a step back. I don't. I'm having lots of fun with these games. It's a shame if you can't get over your own hangups over portability, but that's a failing in you moreso than the games themselves.

...so naturally the reaction here is going to be "Oh, JRPGs are dying." They aren't really, but they are going in a direction that a lot of people just don't like, and I think that's perfectly rational.

If the only major change is that they're going in a direction with visuals less advanced than you'd prefer, it's pretty irrational to write articles as inflammatory and exaggerated as the one being discussed.

 

[Ulairi]

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, western RPGs are not doing anything new or innovative. They are just as derivative as Japanese RPGs, the difference is that console gamers haven’t really played them until late last generation and this generation. Western role-playing games have been sucking the teat of Tolkien, Martin, and Jordan for years. Next generation we’ll hear the same stories about western rpgs. They used to be called console role-playing games versus pc role-playing games.

I don’t get how big beefy gritty men are supposed to be better and more “realistic” than teenagers who are out to save the world. JRPGs aren’t dying. Square just screwed it by developing their interactive movie game for the last 4-5 years. If FFXIII would have been released two years ago the JRPG market would be a lot better. WRPGs are trendy among the gaming intelligentsia this generation because they are new. If the gaming press wasn’t so console dominated they’d realize everything they are talking about being new and innovative really isn’t. The consoles are ten years behind what PCs have been doing. Do you want to know where consoles are heading? Look at where PCs have gone and where they are going.

 

[Azih]

An RPG's unhurried pace is not a defect. Speed in the telling is not an unalloyed virtue across genres.

This much is obvious. Game A is good, but Game B would by no means necessarily be improved by imitating it.

That wasn't the point though, the point was that Genre A is now good in a way that was once the exclusive domain of Genre B. That isn't a good thing for Genre B.