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Game Dev "Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is"

Marvel14

Banned
Lmao some people here are really salty about all the praise Nintendo gets for making a legit Masterpiece that's recieving universal praise from everyone.
Indeed..these two are comedy gold:

Only things I am coping with is an excess of recency bias, hyperbole, and herd mentality. I will now stop posting in these threads.

It's pretty basic shit. But because it's made by Nintendo people think it's the best thing ever.
Meanwhile just today I:

  • Discovered Nintendo's answer to the death star with it's gravity effects and two different light puzzles on two different islands (I loooove light puzzles from earlier Zeldas)
  • Built (at different times of course) a steerable hovercraft, a non steerable wind powered horseless cart and a rocket and windpowered glider..managed to crash and burn all before getting them right
  • Beat a mechanical construct boss using mostly slowtime archery
  • Got killed by a 3 headed laser shooting dragon and later ran away from its ice breathing cousin
  • Built a very satisfying bridge.
  • Did a couple of very satisfying shrine puzzles...
  • Found one of Zelda's memories
  • Contributed my first story as a reporter
  • Found my first great fairy (who wont come out yet) and almost completed two armour sets (headgear missing).
  • Found the demon that exchanges health for stamina (and vice versa)
  • River Rafted in a cave.
  • Scaled sky islands using platforms with rockets attached.
  • Found Hestu and got him dancing.
  • Helped Hudson put up some tricky signs
  • Cooked loads of meals...particularly spicy ones.
  • Discovered that a mirror on a shield actually does blind your enemies (but only when the sun shines).
  • Set a band of bokoblins fighting against a bunch of constructs and watched the battle from the sidelines. The constructs kept freezing their opponents until I came in to clean up the leftovers.
  • Saved 3 npcs from Bokoblin attacks 2 of them possees on horseback.
  • Ran away from an angry looking bear and some irritable ents.
  • Shot up some Moblins in an enclosed fortress like fish in a barrel...but not before they killed me a few times.
And I'm massively summarising here of course. The breadth of things to do is completely nuts. I repeat, this was my playthrough just today.

I feel so sorry for all the people shitting on the game. I have been gaming since the Atari 2600 and this might be the first game ever that I am looking forward to finishing so I can play it again from the start...

Edit: I've had to update this multiple times because I kept remembering more things!
 
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TL;DW. Dev discover physics and game systems

In all seriousness, we had more impressive physics systems running on fucking ps3s and x360s than many modern games. Saying this would be a monumental thing to do on current next-gen consoles is just ridiculous.

The game/level design however is indeed quite impressive, having all these systems working together is rather difficult to do, but thats hardware agnostic.

Lol exactly, all those compliments yet nintendo can barely get those mouths to move. Or faces to animate, something that was in gaming since hl2 did it in 2004. But we ignore that abd act like its doing something amazing from a tech standpoint...

Are we like in fucking bizarro world or something, its like these people, even the people IN the business, have shit memory or something.

Im personally not wowed by anything in tears of the kingdom. I wish it was something I could hyped about frim a tech standpoint lol
 
"Puzzle" may not have been the best word but games that trust the player to take advantage of physics off the top of my head... Kerbal space program, human fall flat, little big planet, portal, rainbow six siege. Really just titles that allow players to accomplish the objective (whatever it may be) in whatever way makes the most sense to them. What I love about the early stages of the TOTK community is that people are literally going through the game solving a good amount of challenges by building extremely long bridges JUST because they can 😆 and it works for some reason.

Edit: almost forgot but special shout-out to max and the curse of the brotherhood. Early Xbox one game that had you solving puzzle using different marker powers. Super simple and kid friendly but they got creative with some of those puzzles too.
Half life 2 did it too
 

BlackTron

Member
I see so much salt in this thread. No one is saying Nintendo invented Physics. Dev are impressed that all the systems work together naturally and its doing all that on a 7yr old tablet without breaking and that Impressive oh and its only 18Gigs. That crazy.
Why cant people see that if not blinded by their BS.

You are wrong, that is the opinion of a real game developer. We should defer to the infinite wisdom of forum fanboys who never played the game instead.
 

Marvel14

Banned
yet nintendo can barely get those mouths to move. Or faces to animate, something that was in gaming since hl2 did it in 2004. But we ignore that abd act like its doing something amazing from a tech standpoint.
If only gameplay was centred around getting mouths to move and faces to animate, you'd be completely right. And gaming would be a tenth as popular as it is today, just like puppetry.
 
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ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Honestly we still do get games like that, however few to none of them are as mainstream friendly like TotK. I doubt the average player is interested in playing stuff like Space Engineers or Stormworks.

The more player friendly games like that i can think of are Ctrl Alt Ego and Teardown, but naturally neither has the scale of TotK, even though they're still very well designed and complex in their own merits.

Those games you mentioned, are physics-based games as mentioned in the OP video and doesn't have numerous physics systems interconnected.

Zelda TOTK is an action/adventure game, with various physics systems melded in. A game similar to Horizon Zero Dawn or Assassin's Creed where that you can chop every trees, scale every mountain, weathers actually affect gameplay in real time, rewind mechanics, ascend/descend across 3 planes (sky, ground, depth), paraglide everywhere when you jump off the ledge, construct objects to create machines that obey the law of physics, elements baked in (wooden weapon with fire/fire torch/fire arrow can melt ice, inflict fire damage, burn leaves, make hot air balloon fly etc) among others. Games like Teardown ain't that.

That’s another reason why they all look like fools now.
Remember this video?

That was 6 years ago, things would be even worse today. Games are more expensive to make but the AAA space hasn’t evolved much at all in the last 6 years. Zelda has though. Most AAA games is just smoke and mirrors, pretty surface and nice animations, linear in structure, invisible walls or portals or well-produced cutscenes to mask that it’s not really a cohesive fully functional game world.


Exactly this.
 
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tr1p1ex

Member
mostly you only need the newest machines of today to do cutting edge photo realistic graphics at highest resolutions. Or at least that's what the power mostly seems to be used for.
 
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daveonezero

Banned
Pretty much.
Valve implements advanced physics mechanics and nobody bats an eye. Nintendo does it and everybody loses their mind.
I remember playing and loving half life 2 and everyone loved ravenholm with with gravity gun. I said earlier in this thread really the last game to make changes like Nintendo did was Half Life 2z.
 
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Pretty much.

I remember playing and loving half life 2 and everyone loved ravenholm with with gravity gun. I said earlier in this thread really the last game to make changes like Nintendo did was Half Life 2z.
Alot of these people are young. And even when they arent young...half life 2 was primarily a PC game. Most people are console only gamers, you'd be surprised at how much that demographic ignores PC titles even the likes of Half Life...
 

K' Dash

Member
type set GIF


Keep the satyness coming.
 

SirTerry-T

Member
Lol exactly, all those compliments yet nintendo can barely get those mouths to move. Or faces to animate, something that was in gaming since hl2 did it in 2004. But we ignore that abd act like its doing something amazing from a tech standpoint...

Are we like in fucking bizarro world or something, its like these people, even the people IN the business, have shit memory or something.

Im personally not wowed by anything in tears of the kingdom. I wish it was something I could hyped about frim a tech standpoint lol
It's because of the current gaming environment's obsession with moving mouths and animating faces that a game like ToTK is reaping all these plaudits.

When was the last time fantastic lip-syncing mattered to something as fundamental as the "gaming" part of videogames?
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Those games you mentioned, are physics-based games as mentioned in the OP video and doesn't have numerous physics systems interconnected.
Oh they definitely do. Teardown you mentioned for example simulates multiple different types of materials; wood, brick, metal, leaves; their density, buoyancy, etc; for every single block in the game. All of these react differently to your tools, like whether they'll catch on fire (on that note, game simulates fire-spread too), if a hammer can break them or you need stronger tools. Then you also have vehicles, ropes, rocket boosters and so fort.
All of these work together in a level in order to create puzzles. In fact, its such a crazy design you're very unlikely to ever re-do a level with the same solutions you thought of previously.

Another game i mentioned, Stormworks, is an open world that simulates from physics and electrical systems in fully buildable vehicles, all the way to localized dynamic weather, wind, waves (tsunamis included), temperatures, small and massive fires, etc. All interconnected and affecting you, your constructions and your objectives.
Naturally, this one isn't an action adventure game anyone would pick up and play, but it is far far more than just some "physics-based game".
 
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It's because of the current gaming environment's obsession with moving mouths and animating faces that a game like ToTK is reaping all these plaudits.

When was the last time fantastic lip-syncing mattered to something as fundamental as the "gaming" part of videogames?
Funny, why was half life 2 able to do both?

I like games that do both. That exists you know...talk about those titles.

im only using that basic feat as an example of what they cant even do.

Maybe just maybe, it was a standard we just sought out in order to better convey emotions, and immersion etc.

Does your brain only assess gameplay as fighting or tinkering around with some shit? Its an overarching experience. Tired of these games getting away with having no tech ambition, narrative, or creative contexts for quests in these open world games. Because gamers today think all gameplay is is fighting and running around aimlessly all day.
 

yurinka

Member

"Each one of these systems would have been astounding if it was just it by itself. To have it all happening at the same time and all of it to be interconnecting and working and playing nice with each other while the entire Legend of Zelda game, the normal loop that we experience from Breath of the Wild, is just laying right on top, that doesn't seem possible."

"The things that Tears of the Kingdom is doing, it just shouldn't be possible on the Switch. It would be a monumental thing to do on current next-gen consoles, and yet somehow Nintendo has managed to do it on something that amounts to a five year old cellphone."

As Young points out, the Switch is "notorious for having a very weak CPU" and memory speed that's "incredibly slow compared to modern hardware", so to have all of this going on at once and "behaving predictably" is nothing short of miraculous. "Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is," he concludes, "and they're doing things that people thought were impossible on modern hardware."


There are also gamedevs who also are Nintendo fanboys and have no fucking idea they are talking about.

This game only uses basic rigid body physics, which existed in PS2, PSP and even some PS1 games. It isn't any technical achievement.

If he gets surprised by this he should check out Dreams which does way more complex things, his head would explode. But pretty likely it won't because it isn't a Nintendo game, and for Nintendo fans Nintendo even invented the Coca-Cola.
 
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GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
There are also gamedevs who also are Nintendo fanboys and have no fucking idea they are talking about.

This game only uses basic rigid body physics, which existed in PS2, PSP and even some PS1 games. It isn't any technical achievement.

If he gets surprised by this he should check out Dreams which does way more complex things, his head would explode. But pretty likely it won't because it isn't a Nintendo game, and for Nintendo fans Nintendo even invented the Coca-Cola.
Guys who develops for Naughty Dog are Nintendo fanboys now?

Get riiiiight outta town I guess everyones Nintendos fanboys because this is gonna win all the GOTYs :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

nordique

Member
There are also gamedevs who also are Nintendo fanboys and have no fucking idea they are talking about.

This game only uses basic rigid body physics, which existed in PS2, PSP and even some PS1 games. It isn't any technical achievement.

If he gets surprised by this he should check out Dreams which does way more complex things, his head would explode. But pretty likely it won't because it isn't a Nintendo game, and for Nintendo fans Nintendo even invented the Coca-Cola.

The hater flows strong with this one
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Pretty much.

Valve implements advanced physics mechanics and nobody bats an eye. Nintendo does it and everybody loses their mind.

The fluid simulation implementation in HL Alyx was praised too on a smaller scale, but less so because it doesn't impact gameplay at all.

Oh they definitely do. Teardown you mentioned for example simulates multiple different types of materials; wood, brick, metal, leaves; their density, buoyancy, etc; for every single block in the game. All of these react differently to your tools, like whether they'll catch on fire (on that note, game simulates fire-spread too), if a hammer can break them or you need stronger tools. Then you also have vehicles, ropes, rocket boosters and so fort.
All of these work together in a level in order to create puzzles. In fact, its such a crazy design you're very unlikely to ever re-do a level with the same solutions you thought of previously.

Another game i mentioned, Stormworks, is an open world that simulates from physics and electrical systems in fully buildable vehicles, all the way to localized dynamic weather, wind, waves (tsunamis included), temperatures, small and massive fires, etc. All interconnected and affecting you, your constructions and your objectives.
Naturally, this one isn't an action adventure game anyone would pick up and play, but it is far far more than just some "physics-based game".

There is a reason why both ain’t on Nintendo Switch. Teardown will easily tank even the Steam Deck even if it isn’t open world.
 

GymWolf

Member
I see people listing hf2 but forgetting just cause 4.

That game even has an attachment mechanic like tokt to do wacky physics shit.


 
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Banjo64

cumsessed
Who gives a crap how far Nintendo can push a over priced pos console. Guess what a Switch costs $300. A series S costs $300 and blows the crap out of a Switch.

Not hard to push trash tier graphics. The most amazing games were made 20 years ago. Its when devs got these modern day consoles they can't make anything good.
Hmm yeah. Switch or Series S. What a tough choice :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
You know I'd be curious what the other big name devs could attempt to do their best with the Switch Hardware and likewise give the top Nintendo devs an opportunity to give their best on a PS5.

I'd imagine the results would be quite a thing to behold.
 

Majukun

Member
TotK is an amazing achievement and I don't want to knock the people who worked on it. They did an incredible job!

But there are three issues:

1. Output is not exponential or even linear. The other consoles are much more powerful, but to take advantage of that performance requires much more work. Even Nintendo have struggled with this in the move to HD and FullHD.

2. Clearly there are a lot of developers out there who are not performing anywhere near as well as they could or even should. The reasons could be many, but clearly many are just putting out low effort shit.

3. TotK seems rather more a continuation of the attitude of the pioneers of computer games. They had very limited hardware and squeezed amazing things out of it. It's no surprise that Doom Eternal runs well and looks pretty good on the Switch. id Software still have that pioneering culture.

You see it in apps too. The things people made for old 'PDAs' on Symbian, Windows Mobile, BBOS, PalmOS/WebOS were incredible.

Now most just shit out shitty Electron apps that have issues on comparative supercomputers in your pocket. Pathetic.
1. not really? hd development was a shock for the industry because it encreased budget exponentially with high detail assets, but it's not inherently more difficult to do, not at least in the range of difference between modern zelda and whatever open world game on ps5.
If anything, especially in an open world, it gets way worse the less power you have, which is why all those devs are shitting themselves looking at what nintendo managed to do with shitty hardware. Do you wanna know why high detail games are not as, well, interactive? it's because a lot of the detail you see on modern games is smoke and mirrors, normal maps (or whatever new name they gave to the modern equivalent of that), pre-baked lighting...and having those part of the scenario there as interactive items would need that you can't use those smoke and mirrors anymore, that you have to add actual detail and thus either tank performance or scale down on the spectacle.

2.reason is mainly that graphics is immediately marketable, while good gameplay needs to be played. Zelda already has a fanbase ready to buy the game the moment it's out, so doesn't have the marketing issue.It's basically what happened to demon souls...game at the start bombed terribly because it looked janky and with flat graphics...thankfully word of mouth let people know that the game was exceptional, but they almost paid the choice of focusing on making an actual good game instead of a spectacle.

3.probably the fact that nintendo made the whole hardware helped a whole lot. i mean naughty dog has been able to squeeze graphics from recent sony consoles also because they have sony direct tecnical support on how to do so...they just focus that power on the (IMHO) wrong thing.
 

Majukun

Member
Nintendo just created one of the most impressive sandbox game that will live forever. they would have easily charged for those Zonai parts in those pachinko machines in the game if they were greedy and people would pay for it like they do other company. And its on a almost 7yrs old tech. Thats why people and Devs are Amazed, i just dont get why some are hating. Wow

Power means nothing when its not used wisely and we have seen it countless times with Nintendo.
the strangest thing that i saw in terms of design is nintendo adopting gacha mechanics in multiple games but not charging a dime for it :messenger_beaming:
 

Marvel14

Banned
Those games you mentioned, are physics-based games as mentioned in the OP video and doesn't have numerous physics systems interconnected.

Zelda TOTK is an action/adventure game, with various physics systems melded in. A game similar to Horizon Zero Dawn or Assassin's Creed where that you can chop every trees, scale every mountain, weathers actually affect gameplay in real time, rewind mechanics, ascend/descend across 3 planes (sky, ground, depth), paraglide everywhere when you jump off the ledge, construct objects to create machines that obey the law of physics, elements baked in (wooden weapon with fire/fire torch/fire arrow can melt ice, inflict fire damage, burn leaves, make hot air balloon fly etc) among others. Games like Teardown ain't that.



Exactly this.
Or this. Better showcases the physics aspects.

 

IAmRei

Member
c
Basically, devs are lost when you remove their havok plugin or internal copycat.

Anyone surprised?

They’re driven by marketing to have the best graphics and cinematic experience! Who the fuck cares about physics right? We paid for the Havok license right? Fucking use it! I hear gamers love ragdoll.

Nintendo has simply given up on hardware/graphic power races and looks at what’s available and how to tap into it.

Kudos for Monolith too for pushing that hardware.

We’re talking a game that schools nearly every devs and can run on a dozen watts. It’s not magic teraflops, just raw talent.

I hope they’re inspired by this and stop chasing cinematic experience for a fucking minute..
can't be more agree than this
 

Tams

Gold Member

How does he have that many hearts and yet is
1. not really? hd development was a shock for the industry because it encreased budget exponentially with high detail assets, but it's not inherently more difficult to do, not at least in the range of difference between modern zelda and whatever open world game on ps5.
If anything, especially in an open world, it gets way worse the less power you have, which is why all those devs are shitting themselves looking at what nintendo managed to do with shitty hardware. Do you wanna know why high detail games are not as, well, interactive? it's because a lot of the detail you see on modern games is smoke and mirrors, normal maps (or whatever new name they gave to the modern equivalent of that), pre-baked lighting...and having those part of the scenario there as interactive items would need that you can't use those smoke and mirrors anymore, that you have to add actual detail and thus either tank performance or scale down on the spectacle.

2.reason is mainly that graphics is immediately marketable, while good gameplay needs to be played. Zelda already has a fanbase ready to buy the game the moment it's out, so doesn't have the marketing issue.It's basically what happened to demon souls...game at the start bombed terribly because it looked janky and with flat graphics...thankfully word of mouth let people know that the game was exceptional, but they almost paid the choice of focusing on making an actual good game instead of a spectacle.

3.probably the fact that nintendo made the whole hardware helped a whole lot. i mean naughty dog has been able to squeeze graphics from recent sony consoles also because they have sony direct tecnical support on how to do so...they just focus that power on the (IMHO) wrong thing.

None of that refutes any of my arguments against the computer games industry as a whole.
 

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
Pretty much.

Valve implements advanced physics mechanics and nobody bats an eye. Nintendo does it and everybody loses their mind.
Everyone made a big deal out of that back then. It was literally the main thing people talked about the game everywhere. That gun.

The difference here is that it's not relegated to one system of physics. It's a combining that with a chemistry system, weather systems, open world simulations, and verticality.
 

Portugeezer

Member
I'm still surprised by the amount of dick sucking this game receives. Even for a Nintendo game; people would moan about Nintendo games before (I was never one of them), but gawt dayum.
 

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
I'm still surprised by the amount of dick sucking this game receives. Even for a Nintendo game; people would moan about Nintendo games before (I was never one of them), but gawt dayum.
I'm gay, and there's nothing better than Nintendo's dick.
 

FStubbs

Member
Everyone made a big deal out of that back then. It was literally the main thing people talked about the game everywhere. That gun.

The difference here is that it's not relegated to one system of physics. It's a combining that with a chemistry system, weather systems, open world simulations, and verticality.
And that it's open world and running on the Nintendo Switch.
 

daclynk

Member
You are wrong, that is the opinion of a real game developer. We should defer to the infinite wisdom of forum fanboys who never played the game instead.
Wrong about what? Some Devs, coders and programmers are impressed. Are they wrong to be impressed?
 
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Fafalada

Fafracer forever
The design achievement of actually meaningfully(not just window dressing) using physics interactivity in a AAA game is important to note for sure.

As far as 'technical' achievements go, it's still the same rigid body dynamics that console class hw has been running for 20+ of years, there's barely any advancements been made in all this time (that's an industry problem, not the game).

But for those that missed it, this is running Havok physics, so technically Microsoft made it all possible... a tad ;)
 

Robb

Gold Member
combat and traversal mechanics aren't even as deep as a puddle, level design is basic and straightforward
That sounds ridiculous to me, you can build literally anything and climb anything for traversal. Or glide through the skies with the glider. Or better yet just put a minecart on your shield and skate around, or shield-surf. Or use the horse. Or stumble upon a deer. Or a bear. Both combat and traversal have pretty much infinite possibilities. Not to mention stuff like ascend which is amazing for traversing the environment.

And the shrines are Portal 2-levels of good imo. The level/puzzle design is fantastic which is remarkable given the player-options at hand.
 
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