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Game Dev "Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is"

Kumomeme

Member
vNAO8CG.jpg
from another point of view, it show that we probably at point of diminishing return of possible gameplay design.

people argue we need stronger hardware like stronger CPU, GPU, Memory etc to push core gameplay idea further but this shows that compared to 2-4 generation before, currently we at a stage where anything is possible on even weakest hardware today and the core gameplay wont be much different even on much stronger hardware, except the scale of it.

core gameplay of Zelda BOTW & ToTK just same as most of AAA game out there especially the type that 'hard' to develop.

- Open World? check
- vertical high altitude flight? check
- realtime daynight and weather cycle? check
- physic interaction? check (on this case ToTK pushed it further show what possible even on weak CPU)

also there is game like Genshin on smartphone out there. so simply to say any kind of gameplay that we commonly see on AAA game today should be feasible on even shitty smartphone. only with differences the scale of it and ofcourse, performance & visual trade off. this all show how far our hardware progress compared to 10-15 years ago.

since we already past the phase where even 'weakest' hardware could handle 'any' type of gameplay, perhaps what Nintendo show to the world is, how much important polishing stage and particularly QC work is. 'anything' is possible if they could give attention to this aspect no matter how 'weak' or limited them toward the hardware they are working with. but ofcourse, making game is not easy and take time.
 
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justiceiro

Marlboro: Other M
"Imagine if they used cutting edge hardware", then the game would take longer and and have either smaller scope or more sparse content.

It's impressive how this go through most people heads. More possible details demand more time to polish said details, what is so hard to understand?

You guys should be investors, you clearly are as smart as they are.
 

Kataploom

Gold Member
Lol exactly, all those compliments yet nintendo can barely get those mouths to move. Or faces to animate, something that was in gaming since hl2 did it in 2004. But we ignore that abd act like its doing something amazing from a tech standpoint...

Are we like in fucking bizarro world or something, its like these people, even the people IN the business, have shit memory or something.

Im personally not wowed by anything in tears of the kingdom. I wish it was something I could hyped about frim a tech standpoint lol
They care about the important stuff, you know which ones
 

Kataploom

Gold Member
"B... But... HL2!!"

Ok, but that was... what? 20 years ago already? How many games managed to do what Zelda does in that time span? Also, not even HL2 managed to do so, those claiming so are yelling they didn't play the game
 

Kataploom

Gold Member
I wouldn't hire this man to make games, he's clearly an incompetent.
And you clearly don't know how programming works.

People here lost the focus... Nobody is saying Switch is pushing some secret sauce, the problem lies on AAA gaming not doing more than the bare minimum and then putting everything into graphics.

Nintendo not only puts focus on physics, but also does on exploration, puzzles, open world, etc etc etc etc.

And all those systems work amazing interconnected at a point nothing seems impossible. And everything JUST WORKS.

Why nobody else does it?

I mean, Naughty Dog put a casual cinematic game on PC recently with barely any moving piece and they shit the bed. They do so with such a game, imagine something actually complex.

The lesson of the story is: Devs don't put enough time on more creative gameplay, complex systems that actually matters to gameplay and even then, they release broken being undeniably simpler experiences.
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
People think a lot of things, it doesn't matter. And saying some of these games are just doing "a part of it" is a very misleading way to put things.

Yeah they're not doing everything TotK, but they're also doing things TotK doesn't. They're different games after all. Teardown for example has object persistency (which TotK doesn't), not to mention the amount of simulated objects is in another level completely.


There are tons. I gave 4 examples, but there are more. Avorion, Satisfactory, Factorio, Noita, many cRPGs, etc.


Funny, thats the kind of mentality that drives big devs away from trying to be creative. If you're gonna judge a game on a single glance like that, its only natural they'd rather put their resources into making ultra realistic graphics. Not everyone has the "Zelda" and "Nintendo" names guaranteeing them sales, after all.

I see those titles, yet they circles around not being what is presented in the argument in the video.

I don’t think asking for properly textured polygons for a finished title is too much. I am not talking about using every graphical technology in the world.
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
Nintendo not only puts focus on physics, but also does on exploration, puzzles, open world, etc etc etc etc.
Other developers need to catches up they can't let Nintendo keep evolving gameplays by themselves they'll gets way ahead

I hopes all games gets better
 

Forth

Neophyte
This game is honestly ruining gaming for me. I'm only up to the first temple but every other big AAA like Forbidden West feel sterile compared to this.
I know FW looks better but it's all just window dressing and I see that now more than ever.
Personally I feel studios like Sony have been going in the wrong direction with their games for years now.
 

Kataploom

Gold Member
Other developers need to catches up they can't let Nintendo keep evolving gameplays by themselves they'll gets way ahead

I hopes all games gets better
I think problem is top management priorities, games are too expensive and risky so they need investors, those investors need to see what's so great about that gaming project that will make people want to buy it, is harder to explain to investors, board, etc. A ver unique idea and how it will make them money, so they go with proven ideas which are easier to explain and get approved by those people with money or power that have no idea about gaming.

How would you propose such a project like TOTK to investors/board? There's the bottleneck, it's easier to propose uncharted or God of war which are way simpler games and have the "wow graphx!!1" effect immediately to sell.

Nintendo approach that differently, they seem to just work on whatever ideas and prototypes and then they get proposed and perfected, they seem to not have management as bottleneck.

That's my assumption at least, many indies have that "Nintendo magic" that must industry lack, so I think that's because those devs don't have those board/investors bottlenecking their ideas as well.

Can't blame then if that's the case, a company should only focus on making money, problem would be just that games as products are too different from movies or any other entertainment product.
 

UnNamed

Banned
And you clearly don't know how programming works.

People here lost the focus... Nobody is saying Switch is pushing some secret sauce, the problem lies on AAA gaming not doing more than the bare minimum and then putting everything into graphics.

Nintendo not only puts focus on physics, but also does on exploration, puzzles, open world, etc etc etc etc.

And all those systems work amazing interconnected at a point nothing seems impossible. And everything JUST WORKS.

Why nobody else does it?

I mean, Naughty Dog put a casual cinematic game on PC recently with barely any moving piece and they shit the bed. They do so with such a game, imagine something actually complex.

The lesson of the story is: Devs don't put enough time on more creative gameplay, complex systems that actually matters to gameplay and even then, they release broken being undeniably simpler experiences.
Achchually... It's litterally what that dev has said.

And your speech is right, and I fully agree with it, because it's the very reason why he's wrong.

Other devs waste CPU resources on Aloy's hair, Nintendo on physics and mechanics, that's why BotW is cell shaded. Other devs don't want to focus on more important things than graphics, but this doesn't mean they lack of skills.

There is nothing "impossible" in TOTK, just the will to do things in the right way.
 

WildBoy

Member
You can do a lot more with hardware than you think. Nintendo is proving that.

Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts did something similar on the 360. No one really noticed.

Games still run great on my Geforce GTX 1080.
The physics in BKNnB were terrible! No one noticed cos it was badly designed and much time was spent in menus. Also it had 0 of the charm of the originals. But even then it doesn't come close.
 

WildBoy

Member
Too bad it gets unappreciated because of the ancient abysmal hardware. Makes the game fucking ugly, and it doesn’t get the respect it probably deserves. At least not from me. I can’t look past it.
This reminds me of how I felt about PS2.... Xbox and GameCube were miles ahead.
 

WildBoy

Member
This game is honestly ruining gaming for me. I'm only up to the first temple but every other big AAA like Forbidden West feel sterile compared to this.
I know FW looks better but it's all just window dressing and I see that now more than ever.
Personally I feel studios like Sony have been going in the wrong direction with their games for years now.
Finally someone on the same page as me! Since last guardian it's all been Hollywood crap
 

Guilty_AI

Member
It would be cool to see a peak of what goes on in the physics engine of a simulation rally game like Gran Turismo or Forza! I'd watch a documentary about that.
Explaining it very roughly, they have a 'box' (the car) with a driving model, a basic physics model, and then start applying multiple forces to the box. These forces are changed and tweaked to fit the behaviour of the real-life counterpart of a particular vehicle.

Its a top-down approach basically, where you keep adding physical effects and elements to get the closest you can to driving that car in real life.
 

SaintALia

Member
Probably because 'cinematic videogames' and multiplayer focused stuff became the main type of games developed by AAA studios.

You used to have more ambitious AA or AAA games that pushed gameplay innovations with physics interactions and such like Far Cry, Crysis, Just Cause, Red Faction, Half Life etc, but Crysis and Far Cry was cut down to more serve that cinematic experience more with their gameplay somewhat stagnating or pushed in other parts. Red Faction is dead, Half Life maybe, Just Cause is probably dead, so yeah, it is what it is.

I've settled into just experiencing amazing looking graphics that's barely interact-able, with mostly useless fluff on top like lots of particles flying every which way, or fog that warps as you pass through it or hair physics or nonsense like that.
 

SaintALia

Member
Everyone crying out "physics!" and yet it wouldn't surprise me if Gran Turismo or Forza are running more simulations per cpu cycle.

I think this is way more about game design than physics. Sorry for being pedantic.
Pretty much goes for most car sim games, but that's not the types of games they're talking about.

I also don't think those would be the most realistic car sims around regarding physics and how far they go in recreating real car physics. But I'd need a racing expert who's heavily into PC car sims to make a good assessment on that, as I've seen a bunch of realistic car sims that never get ported to consoles and people rarely talk about them.
 

Interfectum

Member
Few game devs/publishers dare to take risks and launch a AAA game like TotK in today's gaming climate. TotK engages players by challenging them to navigate complex physics puzzles and entrusts them with the autonomy to make their own decisions. The current trend in many AAA games, by contrast, is to provide an almost invisible guiding hand that nudges the player through the game. Stuck on a puzzle for a couple of minutes? Your in-game companion conveniently provides the answer. Can't defeat a boss after three attempts? You're offered the chance to bypass it.

Despite the flak Nintendo often receives for crafting games that are perceived as child-friendly and risk-averse, the reality is that many other AAA studios haven't been as audacious or daring as Nintendo in the creation of their latest Zelda installment.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Pretty much goes for most car sim games, but that's not the types of games they're talking about.

I also don't think those would be the most realistic car sims around regarding physics and how far they go in recreating real car physics. But I'd need a racing expert who's heavily into PC car sims to make a good assessment on that, as I've seen a bunch of realistic car sims that never get ported to consoles and people rarely talk about them.
Its kind of relative. Generally, Assetto Corsa (Especially Competizione) and iRacing are considered the most realistic racing sims.

But in terms of the complexity of the simulation, i'd crown BeamNG.drive. It doesn't have the degree of precision as the previous two, but its the most generalist driving sim of all, as it takes a bottom-up approach to simulation (meaning they aren't just replicating the behaviour of a car in the game, they're simulating an actual car and enviroment). Naturally, it also happens to be the most CPU taxing amongst the big car sims.
 
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Kataploom

Gold Member
Achchually... It's litterally what that dev has said.

And your speech is right, and I fully agree with it, because it's the very reason why he's wrong.

Other devs waste CPU resources on Aloy's hair, Nintendo on physics and mechanics, that's why BotW is cell shaded. Other devs don't want to focus on more important things than graphics, but this doesn't mean they lack of skills.

There is nothing "impossible" in TOTK, just the will to do things in the right way.
Well, some may lack skills actually, at least within a group of programmers, in average.

What Nintendo did with TOTK isn't actually easy not because of platform resources, that comes later, but to actually just design and implement, and even if it was debugging such features seems like a hell of a task, QA correctly in software development is very complicated to the point it can make some features never release if the company takes it seriously.

But I can see companies not trusting their employees with such a task, let alone leaving the "proved concept" shelter, so they rather put their resources into eye candy than taking risks, even if their employees have the skills and motivation.
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news

daveonezero

Banned
Honestly this thread has to be a testament to BoTW. the fact that BotW had the capability to do what we see in ToTK is insane. And in fact what we see in as impressive in TOTK is still in BotW but in much smaller details.

Just a rock falling down a hill was really the extent of the first game.
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
The most monumental feat is shipping it in perfectly polished form, _on physical media_ that you could buy at an antique store in 50 years and shove into a new-in-the-box Switch and play the whole the game even if the internet had ceased to exist.

Almost no one out there ships complete games anymore, they require so many downloads & patches that even single player games are effectively software-as-a-service and dead once the servers go offline. It's a disgrace.
 

FBeeEye

Banned
It's simple. All the time and brainpower that most developers use to figure out how to make a game look more realistic and the intellectual capital they use to invent ways to squeeze microtransactions out of users, Nintendo uses to figure out how to make fun video games.

The best-looking games of the past couple of years have done nothing new for video games except look prettier. They're basically the same games from the PS3 era all shined up.
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
"The open world is probably the best-constructed open world ever. I can drop you anywhere in the Tears of the Kingdom map and you can spin your camera around, and if you see a space that looks like something should be there, you will be rewarded for going there. Every single time… And that just isn't a thing I think any other open world game is even close to."

The praise reaches a whole new level when incorporating Tears of the Kingdom's building and physics engine into its meticulously-designed open world. At EA, Mumbach worked as a producer where he was in charge of breaking development processes down, including figuring out how many people and how much time was needed for development to go smoothly. But even with that experience, he says he can't begin to imagine how things work behind Nintendo's tightly-shut doors.

"To make these vehicles that work the way they work with the physics, like the gliders? And the fact that you can put rockets or fans on the back of this glider, but then it's also understanding where I am standing on the glider at all times? And constantly updating the trajectory of the glider based on my little tiny stick deflection movements? That's like a whole game to me. Go make that and you win an award for making that. And that's just a little part of this game."
 

Jimmy_liv

Member
It's not just the physics it's how it all makes sense in the world, the physics aren't there for the sake of it, they are the gameplay moment to moment experience.

The game just throws new stuff at you all the time, so much discovery.

I think that's why most people were disappointed from the Sony Showcase, it wasn't because of the graphics, it was because there was nothing innovative, all the games look the same.
It wast even the lack of innovation. It was that the games looked poor. I don't associate PS with poor looking games but that showcase was far from what I've come to expect from Sony.
 

REDRZA MWS

Member
They do. Just not in the way you want them to, but which hasn't worked out for them in the past multiple times.
Doesnt make sense. Their games and development prowess are too notch. Why cant decent/current/powerful hardware work out for them when they continuously pump great games?
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
Mumbach says he "guarantees" executives at big game companies are telling their development teams that their games need building mechanics. But that doesn't mean we'll see building mechanics in all the finished products, as most dev teams will likely push back and say systems like that will take too much time — and too much money — to create.

"I don't think we'll see a bunch of people trying to make this game. I think that they'll be having conversations about it, but I think ultimately it's a unicorn. It's not a thing you can just go out there and emulate."

"I don't want to be negative, but even if most developers took the correct lessons from Breath of the Wild and now Tears of the Kingdom, I'm not confident most of them would be able to do anything meaningful with them," James says. "I don't think Zelda's design is something that can be learned or copied without incredible effort — Nintendo is just full of world class talent working in an environment that's letting them realize their full potential. The result is masterpieces like Tears of the Kingdom."
 
Mumbach says he "guarantees" executives at big game companies are telling their development teams that their games need building mechanics. But that doesn't mean we'll see building mechanics in all the finished products, as most dev teams will likely push back and say systems like that will take too much time — and too much money — to create.

"I don't think we'll see a bunch of people trying to make this game. I think that they'll be having conversations about it, but I think ultimately it's a unicorn. It's not a thing you can just go out there and emulate."

"I don't want to be negative, but even if most developers took the correct lessons from Breath of the Wild and now Tears of the Kingdom, I'm not confident most of them would be able to do anything meaningful with them," James says. "I don't think Zelda's design is something that can be learned or copied without incredible effort — Nintendo is just full of world class talent working in an environment that's letting them realize their full potential. The result is masterpieces like Tears of the Kingdom."
I also feel like "building mechanics" is missing the overall message of TotK - yeah, building and attaching things is definitely cool, but there's a lot more to like and take away from this game than that. Hopefully it does have a positive impact on industry at large.
 

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
It wast even the lack of innovation. It was that the games looked poor. I don't associate PS with poor looking games but that showcase was far from what I've come to expect from Sony.
If Spiderman 2 actually introduces some amazing game mechanic or surprise, like, a multi-verse dark world apocalyptic Manhatten that connects to the real world or entering the mind of Venom, I dunno something (not saying it's easy). I think reception would have been way better. People basically saw the exact same game and so the graphics became the main differentiator, and when that didn't happen, RIOT!

Think about the fact that Nintendo only hinted at caves and underground, and never actually said anything about the Depths in TotK which are as big as Hyrule. Will Spiderman 2 have that? no.
 

kevm3

Member
This Nintendo hyperbole is always what annoyed me so much about the fandom> Switch was my favorite system during the whole PS4, OneX gen, but all of this praise on what utterly amazing things Nintendo is supposedly doing is getting ridiculous.

Tears of the Kingdom looks a touch better than Breath of the Wild, which was a Wii U game. Visually, it doesn't even touch uncharted 3 on ps3.

Physics wise, it does some impressive things, but all of this OH MY GOOODNESS HOW DID U MAKE THIS AMAZING UNBELIEVABLE MASTERPIECE THAT NOBODY CAN DUPLICATE rhetoric is annoying.
 

kevm3

Member
GTA San Andreas had some amazing things you could do with physics. There was some base I couldn't get into so I parked a diesel truck with a rump
"B... But... HL2!!"

Ok, but that was... what? 20 years ago already? How many games managed to do what Zelda does in that time span? Also, not even HL2 managed to do so, those claiming so are yelling they didn't play the game

GTA San Andreas allowed you to use physics to solve problems in unique ways as well as providing a living world and that was on PS2 hardware.
 

BlackTron

Member
This Nintendo hyperbole is always what annoyed me so much about the fandom> Switch was my favorite system during the whole PS4, OneX gen, but all of this praise on what utterly amazing things Nintendo is supposedly doing is getting ridiculous.

Tears of the Kingdom looks a touch better than Breath of the Wild, which was a Wii U game. Visually, it doesn't even touch uncharted 3 on ps3.

Physics wise, it does some impressive things, but all of this OH MY GOOODNESS HOW DID U MAKE THIS AMAZING UNBELIEVABLE MASTERPIECE THAT NOBODY CAN DUPLICATE rhetoric is annoying.
You bumped this topic just to tell us that you didn't play the game yet?

Edit: Whoops, it was GigaBowser who actually bumped it, I glossed over but should have known really lol. But seriously, when you say "utterly amazing things they're supposedly doing", the language implies you are annoyed about others' opinions on a game you judged without even playing. If you want to talk about "annoying"...
 
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GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
Bruno Dias, lead narrative systems designer at Sunless Skies studio Failbetter Games: "What I really admire about TOTK is its use of friction, or its willingness to be a little mean to the player. For example: the Depths aren't just pitch black, the terrain there is designed to break your line of sight and keep you from just seeing and beelining for the nearest Lightroot. Or how there's no default, universally available way to get up on a sky island.

"Games often avoid ambiguity about the player's capabilities. But TOTK is constantly inviting the player to ask, 'can I actually make it over there' or 'will this actually work,' like with the sky islands that are really far from where you might launch to glide to them. Because it's not immediately obvious what will work, the player is encouraged to try things and keep reassessing their model of how the game works, which is a mode of play that's really hard to do in a video game – it's so easy for the player to just get frustrated or bored in these situations. TOTK just shows incredible confidence in its mechanics and world to allow for this kind of introspective play."

The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
 

Kataploom

Gold Member
This Nintendo hyperbole is always what annoyed me so much about the fandom> Switch was my favorite system during the whole PS4, OneX gen, but all of this praise on what utterly amazing things Nintendo is supposedly doing is getting ridiculous.

Tears of the Kingdom looks a touch better than Breath of the Wild, which was a Wii U game. Visually, it doesn't even touch uncharted 3 on ps3.

Physics wise, it does some impressive things, but all of this OH MY GOOODNESS HOW DID U MAKE THIS AMAZING UNBELIEVABLE MASTERPIECE THAT NOBODY CAN DUPLICATE rhetoric is annoying.
LOL there's nothing that game does that is comparable to even BOTW from rendering standpoint... Let's not even talk about system interconnectivity and scope... You just like realistic art style more, but full dynamic lighting with full PBR rendering pipeline with full physics in an immense world... That's beyond even what most 8th gen games do.
 

Kataploom

Gold Member
GTA San Andreas had some amazing things you could do with physics. There was some base I couldn't get into so I parked a diesel truck with a rump


GTA San Andreas allowed you to use physics to solve problems in unique ways as well as providing a living world and that was on PS2 hardware.
These people always mention a single feature, but the complexity is not only them alone but all of them together, you won't see a 7th gen game ever doing what BOTW do even from simply a rendering standpoint
 

Ristifer

Member
The physics in BKNnB were terrible! No one noticed cos it was badly designed and much time was spent in menus. Also it had 0 of the charm of the originals. But even then it doesn't come close.
How were they terrible exactly? “Being in the menus” and “not having the charm of the originals” doesn’t explain away the point they made about the game’s physics.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
These people always mention a single feature, but the complexity is not only them alone but all of them together, you won't see a 7th gen game ever doing what BOTW do even from simply a rendering standpoint
Suppose you never heard of Oblivion.

Look, i get it, TotK has some really good design with its physics and puzzles, but it didn't invent systemic game design, nor is it doing any miracles with its hardware. The biggest achievement here really is in terms of production and the extensive amount of game testing this must've required.
 
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BlackTron

Member
GTA San Andreas had some amazing things you could do with physics. There was some base I couldn't get into so I parked a diesel truck with a rump

GTA San Andreas allowed you to use physics to solve problems in unique ways as well as providing a living world and that was on PS2 hardware.

Dude we get it, you didn't play the new Zelda yet. Even the children figured it out, you don't have to convince us.
 
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