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Game Pass is the Reason why Xbox is Failling - Opinion

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Nautilus

Banned
Low effort Video below for whoever prefers that:





In the year of 2023, this is what it feels like Xbox situation is right now:


Run Away Nuclear Bomb GIF by Identity



So how did Xbox manage to put itself in this situation? At the start of the generation, when the Series console was about to be launched, there was so much promise for it. The backwards compatibility initiative, that not only made Xbox 360 and the original Xbox games playable again on modern consoles, made playing old games exciting again. Gamepass was already a thing, and had already caught many gamers' hearts with its treasure trove of content and a relatively low monthly price. But most of all, they showed exciting first party games. Games on multiple genres, that (some still) seems to have a lot of potential, that could change the image that Xbox always had of being a machine to only play Halo, Gears and Forza, and games like it. Some of these games were:

  • Avowed
  • Halo Infinite
  • Fable
  • State of Decay 3
  • Grounded
  • Perfect Dark
  • Redfall
  • Starfield
  • Indiana Jones
  • Hellblade 2
  • Forza Motorsport

Some of these games that were released, while considered good, were a disappointment, like Halo Infinite. Others were just straight out horrible, like Redfall. But most of them are still missing in action. And worst of all, is the horrible pacing at which first party games are released, and this feeling of “Next year will be the year for Xbox!” that never goes away. So what is going on?

I think this problem is multifaceted, but the pacing problem, of games being announced too early and the big drought periods between big releases, is mostly due to Microsoft’s management being straight out inefficient and incompetent. There is no other way of putting this. Xbox has currently 23 first party development studios under its wing. And more often than not, a single studio can handle multiple games at once, much like Bethesda already does. So even taking into account that games nowadays can take up to 5 years to complete, and assuming that each of those 23 game studios does only 1 game per time, Microsoft should be putting out several games per year. And yet they don’t. And they got plenty of time already to organize themselves to fix whatever pipeline problem they supposedly had. Games announced for more than 3 years, like Avowed and Fable, were never seen again after their initial reveal. The year 2022 barely had any games coming out directly from Xbox. Most of their games nowadays have constant delays, and it isn’t uncommon that such delays are bigger than a year. All of this shows just how disorganized Xbox is internally as they can’t seem to properly manage the teams to focus on the problems at hand, or build a proper timeline around how ambitious a game is or plan the scale of the project around the time that is given to it and how long would it take to release most if not all games, in order to avoid droughts that we are seeing nowadays. And it’s not just the management side that they seem lacking. Most of their games have seen technical issues, likely due to Xbox having problems at either recruiting or retaining talented personnel to resolve these issues at a reasonable pace.

But it’s not just a problem with the day-to-day operational activities that I believe they are having problems with, I believe there is an issue with the overall strategy that Microsoft is going for. Or at least, a disconnect at what Microsoft wants Xbox to be, versus what they are doing with Xbox. I think most can agree with me that Gamepass sits at the center at whatever Microsoft wants Xbox to be. The Netflix of gaming, a console juggernaut, whatever it may be. But the problem is that Gamepass, being a subscription model, demands the consumer constant retention and attention at all times. So the games that most synergize with this strategy, at least for it to work and be sustainable in the long term, are games that either require hundreds of hours to be finished, of which there are few, or games who are build around the concept of being replayed over and over, much like Multiplayer and “Games as a service” games. And therein lies the issue: For Gamepass to be profitable and sustainable, it needs more games that retain players for a longer time in the service. But the games that are usually seen as “killer apps”, the ones that draw players to a certain ecosystem in the first place, are most of the time one-and-done games, barring exceptions. In other words, single player games. Not to mention that this need to focus on games with replayability also lessens the appeal of the service, because it lowers the amount of diversity of genres in it, at least from its exclusive games. And what is the biggest appeal for a console or a service? Its exclusive content.

Don’t believe it? Just check for yourself. Sea of Thieves? You can’t even manage a proper ship without other players, which is the only way to traverse around the game. Halo Infinite? Not only has its multiplayer portion been released as Free to Play with constant battle passes being created for it, but the single player portion was once promised to be constantly updated with new content. Grounded? A co-op focused game. Even games that can be played alone without feeling like you are missing out have multiplayer or co-op features put into them, like State of Decay 2. And even before the Series X and S was released, many of Xbox’s beloved IPs, like Gears of War 5 and the Forza series, had stuff like microtransactions put into them, since it would be the most obvious way to “compensate” the financial loss, compared to how much they could gain for multiplayer centric games, since the single player retention appeal would be lower. And which service would benefit from such inclusion, since the game would basically be given for “free” in said service? Gamepass. I mean, Microsoft measures a game’s success nowadays not by how many copies it sold, but by how many players the game has(Basically measures how many downloads the game has, regardless if someone played 100 hours of it, or just 1), and how much time the players have spent on total in the game. That tells you everything you need to know.

And it goes without saying: This need to put… mechanisms into place to make even single player games “viable” in a platform like Gamepass ultimately influences the game’s quality. And recently we just had the perfect example of this: Redfall. Redfall was a game that was marketed at being completely playable and enjoyable solo but much, if not all, of its marketing focused on the co-op aspect. The studio that made it, Arkane, is known for its Immersive sims single player games, and yet here they are doing something completely different from what they usually do. And when playing through the game, you feel the conflicting designs in it, as if there was no clear direction other than appealing to their current fanbase, and what the platform they were publishing their game demanded of them to be successful. There are stealth and the possibility to sneak through, but the game never rewards you for taking that route, and in fact it's always easier, and more fun, to just blast through everything with your guns and powers. The game has four different characters to choose from, but the game never really differentiates them so much that you feel like changing to another character makes any significant change to your play style. And the story in Redfall, of which Arkane at least always delivers something interesting, is poorly presented and boring at best, something that multiplayer games are known for since the story isn't their focus.



And there is a case to be made whether first party games from Xbox really NEEDS to be constantly great. Sure, Redfall’s technical state is unacceptable to anyone’s standard, so the game shouldn’t really be shipped in that state, but the game’s problem runs deeper. The game needed a complete overhaul from the ground up, as many of its mistakes were on a design level. Because underneath all the bugs and performance issues, lies a decent game, not an outstanding one. But the real question is: Do people really care if most games are of exceptional quality? Or rather, do people that use Game Pass to game really care about having killer apps, when all it takes to wash the bad taste of a disappointing game is to just install another game from a catalog of hundreds of games? Even if that catalog consists mostly of “only” good games? Not great, not masterpieces, but good enough games? Game Pass's biggest strength lies in the bang for your buck that it gives, the sheer size of games it provides for the relatively low price, lessening the impact of a few bad games, and even the absence of truly groundbreaking games. Why? Because “it's cheap enough, I don’t care” and “ I’ll just uninstall it, and install another game inside the service. There are plenty of games to play, so who cares?”




Honestly? Microsoft needs to figure out what they want to do with their gaming segment. If they want to ditch the hardware business and focus on services like Gamepass, then they should drop the pretense and start making games that mesh better with that kind of strategy. Instead of going for these Frankenstein single-player-games-that-have-alot-of-multiplayer-focused-features-in-them products that they have been putting out recently. Or if they still want to be a player in the hardware business, or being a storefront in which players flock to get all of their gaming need, they have to stop putting these half-assed multiplayer features in single players, like season passes and co-op modes, in a effort to artificially increase the amount of time players would spend with the game, and stick to a single philosophy that gives said game the identity that every great game needs. Either way, Microsoft needs to figure out what they want to do with Xbox, because this strategy on being a jack of all trades is not only not working for them, but it's actively destroying the Xbox brand.
 
Game Pass is not the reason why it is failing. It's failing because the games are being released in poor states and not being put under good-quality control. And too be quite frank, there are plenty of solid titles on Game Pass including SoT, Grounded, Gears 5, Forza Horizon 5 and Halo Infinite. All of these games play well, have good performance and are fun to play and have plenty of content. Plus, there are plenty of solid indies on Game Pass as well.

Sea of Thieves you can manage a solo sloop fine if you are not bad at the game. It's' called patience and learning, its also one of the best games ever made, has a stupid amount of content, great cosmetics, and they're constantly adding features to the game and its a great time with your friends.

This whole - Game Pass = Bad myth is really getting old. Stop blaming Game Pass and start blaming shitty development and quality checks/poor management.

Halo Infinite was NOT straight up horrible lol. It has the best gameplay out of all the Halo titles, multiplayer is fun and addicting. Now as for content management and the promise of co-op and split-screen that's a whole different story. Halo Infinite is a fun game. Could it have released in a better state? Yeah sure, but it was still plenty of fun and a good game now.

Did you know The Last of Us also has microtransactionsfor Factions since TLOU Remastered on PS4? Destiny 2 does as well. So does World of Warcraft, now what? None of them are player power.

I am sorry dude, but this post reads like a Sony Fanfic imo. I respectfully disagree.

EVERYONE is doing MTX - Games are extremely expensive now and they need other ways to make money. None of the Microsoft titles you mentioned like Gears 5 or SoT are selling player power.
 
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Nautilus

Banned
Game Pass is not the reason why it is failing. It's failing because the games are being released in poor states. And too be quite frank, there are plenty of solid titles on Game Pass including SoT, Grounded, Gears 5, Forza Horizon 5 and Halo Infinite. All of these games play well, have good performance and are fun to play and have plenty of content. Plus, there are plenty of solid indies on Game Pass as well.

This whole - Game Pass = Bad myth is really getting old. Stop blaming Game Pass and start blaming shitty development and quality checks/poor management.
Read the post next time before critizicing my point. Here the part that mostly talks about why Gamepass is influencing the quality of MS titles:

"
Don’t believe it? Just check for yourself. Sea of Thieves? You can’t even manage a proper ship without other players, which is the only way to traverse around the game. Halo Infinite? Not only has its multiplayer portion been released as Free to Play with constant battle passes being created for it, but the single player portion was once promised to be constantly updated with new content. Grounded? A co-op focused game. Even games that can be played alone without feeling like you are missing out have multiplayer or co-op features put into them, like State of Decay 2. And even before the Series X and S was released, many of Xbox’s beloved IPs, like Gears of War 5 and the Forza series, had stuff like microtransactions put into them, since it would be the most obvious way to “compensate” the financial loss, compared to how much they could gain for multiplayer centric games, since the single player retention appeal would be lower. And which service would benefit from such inclusion, since the game would basically be given for “free” in said service? Gamepass. I mean, Microsoft measures a game’s success nowadays not by how many copies it sold, but by how many players the game has(Basically measures how many downloads the game has, regardless if someone played 100 hours of it, or just 1), and how much time the players have spent on total in the game. That tells you everything you need to know.

And it goes without saying: This need to put… mechanisms into place to make even single player games “viable” in a platform like Gamepass ultimately influences the game’s quality. And recently we just had the perfect example of this: Redfall. Redfall was a game that was marketed at being completely playable and enjoyable solo but much, if not all, of its marketing focused on the co-op aspect. The studio that made it, Arkane, is known for its Immersive sims single player games, and yet here they are doing something completely different from what they usually do. And when playing through the game, you feel the conflicting designs in it, as if there was no clear direction other than appealing to their current fanbase, and what the platform they were publishing their game demanded of them to be successful. There are stealth and the possibility to sneak through, but the game never rewards you for taking that route, and in fact it's always easier, and more fun, to just blast through everything with your guns and powers. The game has four different characters to choose from, but the game never really differentiates them so much that you feel like changing to another character makes any significant change to your play style. And the story in Redfall, of which Arkane at least always delivers something interesting, is poorly presented and boring at best, something that multiplayer games are known for since the story isn't their focus.
"

This is important too:

"And there is a case to be made whether first party games from Xbox really NEEDS to be constantly great. Sure, Redfall’s technical state is unacceptable to anyone’s standard, so the game shouldn’t really be shipped in that state, but the game’s problem runs deeper. The game needed a complete overhaul from the ground up, as many of its mistakes were on a design level. Because underneath all the bugs and performance issues, lies a decent game, not an outstanding one. But the real question is: Do people really care if most games are of exceptional quality? Or rather, do people that use Game Pass to game really care about having killer apps, when all it takes to wash the bad taste of a disappointing game is to just install another game from a catalog of hundreds of games? Even if that catalog consists mostly of “only” good games? Not great, not masterpieces, but good enough games? Game Pass's biggest strength lies in the bang for your buck that it gives, the sheer size of games it provides for the relatively low price, lessening the impact of a few bad games, and even the absence of truly groundbreaking games. Why? Because “it's cheap enough, I don’t care” and “ I’ll just uninstall it, and install another game inside the service. There are plenty of games to play, so who cares?”"
 
Last edited:

leo-j

Member
Nope:

Bioshock new ip exclusive GOTY LEVEL
Mass effect new ip exclusive GOTY LEVEL
Gears of war new ip exclusive GOTY LEVEL
Halo 3 established IP exclusive
Forza
Lost odyssey trash but exclusive AAA
Blue dragon tras but exclusive AAA

We can do a beautiful list war comparing Xbox 360 to series consoles….. it’s night and day, the reason Xbox was winning was:

Better online
Better games
Better price

They lost when Sony invested in psn and their first party, and Microsoft switched to mass market with Kinect and Xbox one.

 
Last edited:

feynoob

Banned
Read the post next time before critizicing my point. Here the part that mostly talks about why Gamepass is influencing the quality of MS titles:

"
Don’t believe it? Just check for yourself. Sea of Thieves? You can’t even manage a proper ship without other players, which is the only way to traverse around the game. Halo Infinite? Not only has its multiplayer portion been released as Free to Play with constant battle passes being created for it, but the single player portion was once promised to be constantly updated with new content. Grounded? A co-op focused game. Even games that can be played alone without feeling like you are missing out have multiplayer or co-op features put into them, like State of Decay 2. And even before the Series X and S was released, many of Xbox’s beloved IPs, like Gears of War 5 and the Forza series, had stuff like microtransactions put into them, since it would be the most obvious way to “compensate” the financial loss, compared to how much they could gain for multiplayer centric games, since the single player retention appeal would be lower. And which service would benefit from such inclusion, since the game would basically be given for “free” in said service? Gamepass. I mean, Microsoft measures a game’s success nowadays not by how many copies it sold, but by how many players the game has(Basically measures how many downloads the game has, regardless if someone played 100 hours of it, or just 1), and how much time the players have spent on total in the game. That tells you everything you need to know.

And it goes without saying: This need to put… mechanisms into place to make even single player games “viable” in a platform like Gamepass ultimately influences the game’s quality. And recently we just had the perfect example of this: Redfall. Redfall was a game that was marketed at being completely playable and enjoyable solo but much, if not all, of its marketing focused on the co-op aspect. The studio that made it, Arkane, is known for its Immersive sims single player games, and yet here they are doing something completely different from what they usually do. And when playing through the game, you feel the conflicting designs in it, as if there was no clear direction other than appealing to their current fanbase, and what the platform they were publishing their game demanded of them to be successful. There are stealth and the possibility to sneak through, but the game never rewards you for taking that route, and in fact it's always easier, and more fun, to just blast through everything with your guns and powers. The game has four different characters to choose from, but the game never really differentiates them so much that you feel like changing to another character makes any significant change to your play style. And the story in Redfall, of which Arkane at least always delivers something interesting, is poorly presented and boring at best, something that multiplayer games are known for since the story isn't their focus.
"

This is important too:

"And there is a case to be made whether first party games from Xbox really NEEDS to be constantly great. Sure, Redfall’s technical state is unacceptable to anyone’s standard, so the game shouldn’t really be shipped in that state, but the game’s problem runs deeper. The game needed a complete overhaul from the ground up, as many of its mistakes were on a design level. Because underneath all the bugs and performance issues, lies a decent game, not an outstanding one. But the real question is: Do people really care if most games are of exceptional quality? Or rather, do people that use Game Pass to game really care about having killer apps, when all it takes to wash the bad taste of a disappointing game is to just install another game from a catalog of hundreds of games? Even if that catalog consists mostly of “only” good games? Not great, not masterpieces, but good enough games? Game Pass's biggest strength lies in the bang for your buck that it gives, the sheer size of games it provides for the relatively low price, lessening the impact of a few bad games, and even the absence of truly groundbreaking games. Why? Because “it's cheap enough, I don’t care” and “ I’ll just uninstall it, and install another game inside the service. There are plenty of games to play, so who cares?”"
Any of your points will make people quit gamepass.

If MS is doing as you are saying, they will lose more subs at a faster rate.
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
Imagine if XBOX just focused on releasing 360 tier games with locked 60fps on gamepass. Reasonable budgets, reasonable development times.

The whole notion that games need to be AAA tentpoles is so insanely dumb. People just want fun games to play. Give some solid single player and coop games. It could be an absolute playground for games that you can't get anywhere else.

And don't give me lol crap about 360 tier games. That generation was so much fun cause videogames felt like videogames and were damn fun to play. Somewhere along the way, major studios lost the plot and are just bleeding as a result. Xbox has more than enough resources to just experiment and create all kinds of things on an affordable budget and timeframe.
 
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It’s the only reason I own an Xbox at this point.

Also Re: Redfall - this is almost acting like it was built for gamepass - but it was the opposite - it was conceived before xbox acquired them. If they made a good single player immersive game like they used to it could probably do well in game pass
 
Last edited:

feynoob

Banned
Nope:

Bioshock new ip exclusive GOTY LEVEL
Mass effect new ip exclusive GOTY LEVEL
Gears of war new ip exclusive GOTY LEVEL
Halo 3 established IP exclusive
Forza
Lost odyssey trash but exclusive AAA
Blue dragon tras but exclusive AAA

We can do a beautiful list war comparing Xbox 360 to series consoles….. it’s night and day, the reason Xbox was winning was:

Better online
Better games
Better price

They lost when Sony invested in psn and their first party, and Microsoft switched to mass market with Kinect and Xbox one.


They dropped their 3rd party partnership.
One of reason why Phil fucked up this brand.

Xbox could have had exclusive games from 3rd party devs.

Scalebound scared them away.
 
Last edited:
Read the post next time before critizicing my point. Here the part that mostly talks about why Gamepass is influencing the quality of MS titles:

"
Don’t believe it? Just check for yourself. Sea of Thieves? You can’t even manage a proper ship without other players, which is the only way to traverse around the game. Halo Infinite? Not only has its multiplayer portion been released as Free to Play with constant battle passes being created for it, but the single player portion was once promised to be constantly updated with new content. Grounded? A co-op focused game. Even games that can be played alone without feeling like you are missing out have multiplayer or co-op features put into them, like State of Decay 2. And even before the Series X and S was released, many of Xbox’s beloved IPs, like Gears of War 5 and the Forza series, had stuff like microtransactions put into them, since it would be the most obvious way to “compensate” the financial loss, compared to how much they could gain for multiplayer centric games, since the single player retention appeal would be lower. And which service would benefit from such inclusion, since the game would basically be given for “free” in said service? Gamepass. I mean, Microsoft measures a game’s success nowadays not by how many copies it sold, but by how many players the game has(Basically measures how many downloads the game has, regardless if someone played 100 hours of it, or just 1), and how much time the players have spent on total in the game. That tells you everything you need to know.

And it goes without saying: This need to put… mechanisms into place to make even single player games “viable” in a platform like Gamepass ultimately influences the game’s quality. And recently we just had the perfect example of this: Redfall. Redfall was a game that was marketed at being completely playable and enjoyable solo but much, if not all, of its marketing focused on the co-op aspect. The studio that made it, Arkane, is known for its Immersive sims single player games, and yet here they are doing something completely different from what they usually do. And when playing through the game, you feel the conflicting designs in it, as if there was no clear direction other than appealing to their current fanbase, and what the platform they were publishing their game demanded of them to be successful. There are stealth and the possibility to sneak through, but the game never rewards you for taking that route, and in fact it's always easier, and more fun, to just blast through everything with your guns and powers. The game has four different characters to choose from, but the game never really differentiates them so much that you feel like changing to another character makes any significant change to your play style. And the story in Redfall, of which Arkane at least always delivers something interesting, is poorly presented and boring at best, something that multiplayer games are known for since the story isn't their focus.
"

This is important too:

"And there is a case to be made whether first party games from Xbox really NEEDS to be constantly great. Sure, Redfall’s technical state is unacceptable to anyone’s standard, so the game shouldn’t really be shipped in that state, but the game’s problem runs deeper. The game needed a complete overhaul from the ground up, as many of its mistakes were on a design level. Because underneath all the bugs and performance issues, lies a decent game, not an outstanding one. But the real question is: Do people really care if most games are of exceptional quality? Or rather, do people that use Game Pass to game really care about having killer apps, when all it takes to wash the bad taste of a disappointing game is to just install another game from a catalog of hundreds of games? Even if that catalog consists mostly of “only” good games? Not great, not masterpieces, but good enough games? Game Pass's biggest strength lies in the bang for your buck that it gives, the sheer size of games it provides for the relatively low price, lessening the impact of a few bad games, and even the absence of truly groundbreaking games. Why? Because “it's cheap enough, I don’t care” and “ I’ll just uninstall it, and install another game inside the service. There are plenty of games to play, so who cares?”"
I did read it. And I've been a Game Pass subscriber for many years now and never had problems and I knew exactly what I was getting and I got a ton of value..

You are acting like microtransactions are a new concept for Forza and 3rd person shooter games. Did you forget that Gran Turismo 7 also has MTX? GT7 is not even on any type of a subscribtion service and is being sold as a full on $70 price title on PS5 and the game has MTX so you can get cars faster. Why would they need MTX if its being sold at a full $70 price? lol. This is where your point is falling apart.

Source - https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...microtransactions-are-totally-out-of-control/

Also, are you aware that Sony is also releasing 10 Live Services titles by 2026? Sony bought Bungie so they can have their "live-service" expertise for their future investments in GaaS titles. GaaS is the future whether you like it or not, it has NOTHING to do with Game Pass.

Source - https://www.thegamer.com/sony-plays... confirmed that it has,them all by March 2026.
 
Last edited:

leo-j

Member
They dropped their 3rd party partnership.
One of reason why Phil fucked up this brand.

Xbox could have had exclusive games from 3rd party devs.

Scalebound scared them away.
Yea the fact call of duty was mountains more popular on Xbox live and 360 in the late 2000s, and Sony somehow took the marketing rights and dlc rights from Microsoft (it is as if they didn’t even think they needed it because they were leading most of the generation?) no idea what happened there but Sony went off late ps3 gen.
 

feynoob

Banned
I did read it. And I've been a Game Pass subscriber for many years now and never had problems and I knew exactly what I was getting and I got a ton of value..

You are acting like microtransactions are a new concept for Forza and 3rd person shooter games. Did you forget that Gran Turismo 7 also has MTX? GT7 is not even on any type of a subscribtion service and is being sold as a full on $70 price title on PS5 and the game has MTX so you can get cars faster. Why would they need MTX if its being sold at a full $70 price? lol. This is where your point is falling apart.

Source - https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...microtransactions-are-totally-out-of-control/

Also, are you aware that Sony is also releasing 10 Live Services titles by 2026? Sony bought Bungie so they can have their "live-service" expertise for their future investments in GaaS titles. GaaS is the future whether you like it or not, it has NOTHING to do with Game Pass.
Mtx has existed before gamepass.
Ea and Ubisoft have it on their games.
 

Nautilus

Banned
Any of your points will make people quit gamepass.

If MS is doing as you are saying, they will lose more subs at a faster rate.
No it wont. At least not for now. Because most games are still good enough, with plenty of great games from third parties that MS pays good money for to be on the service.

My point being is that Gamepass primarily needs content. Quantity. And for Game Pass, which is a service that thrives on providing excellent value in terms of the quantity of games you get versus the ammount of money you spent on it, the games inside it doesn't need to be exceptional, masterpieces. Because the main appeal is the quantity of games itself. Everytime MS or any other publisher puts a game in it, the person that plays it will just go "Eh, its fine that this one game sucks, because I can simply play something else, since I dont have to pay anything extra for it". And chances are, that same person will eventually stumble upon something that is good enough for his tastes and he will be satisfied.

So MS is not as pressured as Sony and Nintendo to put out exceptional games(Though they still need to be good, which Redfall isn't for example), because just like a major reason people pick up a Switch is because its a hybrid and not JUST its games, a major reason people get a Game Pass is the hundreds of games inside it and the almost garanteee that there will be plenty that will satisfy you there, and not everything will.

And so, without that pressure for every game, or almost every game to perform, MS don't try as hard as Nintendo and Sony for all its games to shine. And honestly, thats what we have been seeing happens for the last 4 or 5 years.
 

feynoob

Banned
Yea the fact call of duty was mountains more popular on Xbox live and 360 in the late 2000s, and Sony somehow took the marketing rights and dlc rights from Microsoft (it is as if they didn’t even think they needed it because they were leading most of the generation?) no idea what happened there but Sony went off late ps3 gen.
MS ended their with Activision contract and paid the price.

They even refused marvel offer for their IPS.
 
Last edited:

feynoob

Banned
No it wont. At least not for now. Because most games are still good enough, with plenty of great games from third parties that MS pays good money for to be on the service.

My point being is that Gamepass primarily needs content. Quantity. And for Game Pass, which is a service that thrives on providing excellent value in terms of the quantity of games you get versus the ammount of money you spent on it, the games inside it doesn't need to be exceptional, masterpieces. Because the main appeal is the quantity of games itself. Everytime MS or any other publisher puts a game in it, the person that plays it will just go "Eh, its fine that this one game sucks, because I can simply play something else, since I dont have to pay anything extra for it". And chances are, that same person will eventually stumble upon something that is good enough for his tastes and he will be satisfied.

So MS is not as pressured as Sony and Nintendo to put out exceptional games(Though they still need to be good, which Redfall isn't for example), because just like a major reason people pick up a Switch is because its a hybrid and not JUST its games, a major reason people get a Game Pass is the hundreds of games inside it and the almost garanteee that there will be plenty that will satisfy you there, and not everything will.

And so, without that pressure for every game, or almost every game to perform, MS don't try as hard as Nintendo and Sony for all its games to shine. And honestly, thats what we have been seeing happens for the last 4 or 5 years.
The people who sub to gamepass want quality games. People who are buying Xbox are expecting these games.

If MS does as you are suggesting, they will destroy both gamepass and their console business. That is not smart business move.

Plus gamepass has other games outside of 1st party games.
 

Nautilus

Banned
I did read it. And I've been a Game Pass subscriber for many years now and never had problems and I knew exactly what I was getting and I got a ton of value..

You are acting like microtransactions are a new concept for Forza and 3rd person shooter games. Did you forget that Gran Turismo 7 also has MTX? GT7 is not even on any type of a subscribtion service and is being sold as a full on $70 price title on PS5 and the game has MTX so you can get cars faster. Why would they need MTX if its being sold at a full $70 price? lol. This is where your point is falling apart.

Source - https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...microtransactions-are-totally-out-of-control/

Also, are you aware that Sony is also releasing 10 Live Services titles by 2026? Sony bought Bungie so they can have their "live-service" expertise for their future investments in GaaS titles. GaaS is the future whether you like it or not, it has NOTHING to do with Game Pass.

Source - https://www.thegamer.com/sony-playstation-live-service-games/#:~:text=PlayStation's acquisition of Bungie looks to be part of this new initiative.&text=Sony confirmed that it has,them all by March 2026.
I'll just quote the answer I gave to the other user because that pretty much sums what I think.

"No it wont. At least not for now. Because most games are still good enough, with plenty of great games from third parties that MS pays good money for to be on the service.

My point being is that Gamepass primarily needs content. Quantity. And for Game Pass, which is a service that thrives on providing excellent value in terms of the quantity of games you get versus the ammount of money you spent on it, the games inside it doesn't need to be exceptional, masterpieces. Because the main appeal is the quantity of games itself. Everytime MS or any other publisher puts a game in it, the person that plays it will just go "Eh, its fine that this one game sucks, because I can simply play something else, since I dont have to pay anything extra for it". And chances are, that same person will eventually stumble upon something that is good enough for his tastes and he will be satisfied.

So MS is not as pressured as Sony and Nintendo to put out exceptional games(Though they still need to be good, which Redfall isn't for example), because just like a major reason people pick up a Switch is because its a hybrid and not JUST its games, a major reason people get a Game Pass is the hundreds of games inside it and the almost garanteee that there will be plenty that will satisfy you there, and not everything will.

And so, without that pressure for every game, or almost every game to perform, MS don't try as hard as Nintendo and Sony for all its games to shine. And honestly, thats what we have been seeing happens for the last 4 or 5 years."

And neither Sony or Nintendo have that. Each game have to live up to its own expectation. If the game isn't good, it wont sell, and it will be a total failure. For Gamepass, a game doesn't have to sell well, it just have to provide enough value to keep its subscribers inside the service. And that's very different objective than having necessarily a great game. It has to be addictive and replayable, not "great". And that very different from a game that has microtransactions, but has to sell on its own, or a GAAS game that will be its own contained ecosystem.
 
Gamepass is not a problem, it's the "Day and Date on Gamepass" is the really bad decision. It's so stupid. Should have done how Sony's doing.
Why do you think that's dumb? It's what helps to sell the service though. To play a title like Starfield or Fable day 1 at basically almost no cost and without pre orders or any extra waiting. It's so good that it should be illegal.
 
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We just saw that God of War Ragnarok cost 200 million to make. That's the cost of a high-quality AAA game these days.

If you're going to do several of those just to keep subscription numbers up, you better have an absurdly high number of subscribers. More likely, you won't be able to afford many of those and you'll have to make due with indie-style or AA games like Pentiment or Hifi rush.

But, even when those are good, they aren't enough, so you end up shipping out AAA games on a budget and a time crunch. That clearly hasn't been working.

And I don't care how much money the company Microsoft has. They aren't going to eat losses for GamePass indefinitely. He has to be profitable or there's no justification to burn money.
 
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Nautilus

Banned
The people who sub to gamepass want quality games. People who are buying Xbox are expecting these games.

If MS does as you are suggesting, they will destroy both gamepass and their console business. That is not smart business move.

Plus gamepass has other games outside of 1st party games.
Quality games doesn't mean that they will be exceptional. And quality game for a certain business strategy is very different for a service than it is for a ecosystem. One needs to sell the game by itself, that can only be obtained through it, as simply owning the ecosystem will not bring more money down the road. A service only has to keep you inside of it, and most of the appeal of a subscription service lies in how much you save money versus how much you get(as long as there is enough quality content there), and the more effective way to keep people invested inside it versus not expending hundreds of millions of dollars for every game that will only keep a user inside the system for a month, is to make its games more replayable oriented(Co op, multiplayer, GAAS, etc), which in turn affect the types of games that appear on that type of service.
 

Nautilus

Banned
We just saw that God of War Ragnarok cost 200 million to make. That's the cost of a high-quality AAA game these days.

If you're going to do several of those just to keep subscription numbers up, you better have an absurdly high number of subscribers. More likely, you won't be able to afford many of those and you'll have to make due with indie-style or AA games like Pentiment or Hifi rush.

But, even when those are good, they aren't enough, so you end up shipping out AAA games on a budget and a time crunch. That clearly hasn't been working.
EXACTLY. Thats what I have been saying. Since doing God of War kind of games constantly to keep people subscribed isn't either profitable or possible, then you either make lower budget games that do things just good enough to keep things moving, or you invest on games that people play for months or years, like multiplayer games, co-op games or GAAS. So just by the nature of the service, you change what types of games you develop.Most of them anyway
 

feynoob

Banned
Quality games doesn't mean that they will be exceptional. And quality game for a certain business strategy is very different for a service than it is for a ecosystem. One needs to sell the game by itself, that can only be obtained through it, as simply owning the ecosystem will not bring more money down the road. A service only has to keep you inside of it, and most of the appeal of a subscription service lies in how much you save money versus how much you get(as long as there is enough quality content there), and the more effective way to keep people invested inside it versus not expending hundreds of millions of dollars for every game that will only keep a user inside the system for a month, is to make its games more replayable oriented(Co op, multiplayer, GAAS, etc), which in turn affect the types of games that appear on that type of service.
In order for the service to keep you there, they need to have what you want. They don't hold you hostage there.

Netflix would have kept their userbase, if what you are saying is true.
 

Crayon

Member
I'm not sold on the gp dream working out for them at this point but i don't think it's as solidly linked to the fuss rn as you say. The thing is a) no games for long long time b) the legion of warriors they have cultivated over the decades getting super mad about not being the playstation killer c) people in online communities who had it up to their ass with those whiney sycophants and are taking the chance to kick them when they're down

This whole thing needs to settle for a week without more bad news and then we can process all this better.
 

Nautilus

Banned
In order for the service to keep you there, they need to have what you want. They don't hold you hostage there.

Netflix would have kept their userbase, if what you are saying is true.
The difference is that Netflix started to have too much shit on it, and not enough good quality content sprinkled through to keep people invested. And they also started having though competition on that kind of service.

Who is competing right now with Game pass? You could argue that maybe Sony just started with their restructure of PS+, but not noly that on its infancy, but its also not on the level of Game Pass, since Sony first party games, one of the biggest drivers for the PS5 is not going to release day and date, and probably gonna take years to get in, at least for the most popular games. So for now MS has a monopoly on that service, and the ammmount of money you spend versus what you get in return is still too good to ignore.

If MS keeps butchering almost all of their first party games into the future, and more competitors appear on the market, you may have a point. But for now, thats not the case. And even if it was, the types of games more prevalent, at least from MS, would still shift to be more multiplayer/social oriented, because of the very nature of the service. And do you want to get, at least of their AAA input, just multiplayer/MMO/GAAS centric titles?
 

Astray

Gold Member
Honestly? Microsoft needs to figure out what they want to do with their gaming segment. If they want to ditch the hardware business and focus on services like Gamepass, then they should drop the pretense and start making games that mesh better with that kind of strategy.
The big problem in this statement is.. If Microsoft ever drops hardware and goes 3P, you will see the mother of all studio massacres.

Smaller studios like Compulsion or Double Fine can fit in a "Netflix of Gaming" approach, but you look around to the other big 3P players (like EA or Activision), and not only is the number of studios for each smaller than what Xbox has right now (Xbox has 23 studios total incl Bethesda and are trying for more, EA has something like 18 iirc, and Activision has 12-13), they are also far more focused on service games, with some of those studios doing the occasional 1P game (EA is focusing more on 1P than Activision). This cost basis cannot be sustainable for Microsoft if they ever want to make money thru being 3P.

Additionally, they will have to be ruthless with future failures, things like Arkane fucking up Redfall would lead to them being folded if it was Bobby Kotick running things.
 

Nautilus

Banned
The big problem in this statement is.. If Microsoft ever drops hardware and goes 3P, you will see the mother of all studio massacres.

Smaller studios like Compulsion or Double Fine can fit in a "Netflix of Gaming" approach, but you look around to the other big 3P players (like EA or Activision), and not only is the number of studios for each smaller than what Xbox has right now (Xbox has 23 studios total incl Bethesda and are trying for more, EA has something like 18 iirc, and Activision has 12-13), they are also far more focused on service games, with some of those studios doing the occasional 1P game (EA is focusing more on 1P than Activision). This cost basis cannot be sustainable for Microsoft if they ever want to make money thru being 3P.

Additionally, they will have to be ruthless with future failures, things like Arkane fucking up Redfall would lead to them being folded if it was Bobby Kotick running things.
That's the point: They won't need to make money through the 30% cut they get from sales in the hardware. Being 100% in the service model and adapting their games for it will mean that most of the first party games will have microtransaction(which most already have anyway), but these games will be designed in a way to survive either off of these microtransactions, or be designed to keep people subscribed, which is where they will make a lot of money. The subs count does need to rise a lot though, to get to that point that MS will be happy about(I guess anyway). They would cut costs in a few key areas, as they would stop losing money on having to sell consoles at a loss, and everything associated with it(logistics, having to repair defects in warranty, etc)

Would it work? I dont know. But honestly? That's what it feels like MS is already heading torwards. Even if MS keeps making hardware, it will probably feel like a premium product for a very select market that wants that kind of thing.
 
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Jesus, another one.

I’m still waiting to hear about how all of this “rush out crap for GamePass” is supposed to work. In all the years people have been doomsday predicting MS would go this route, no one has been able to give a good reason why they would or why it makes a lick of financial sense.

“but Redfall!” - Redfall was in development for years before MS bought Bethesda and it used to be even more GaaS oriented than it is now, with an in game store and online requirement.

“but Forza and Gears now have MTX!!! why? To offset GamePass stealing sales. GaaS bad!!” - Both of these franchises had MTX long before GamePass and they both had monetization far worse before GamePass than they have afterwards. It’s like no one remembers Gears 4 or the early days of Gears 5, or FM6.

“they’re making more GaaS!!” - Yes they are, just like everyone else.

Please explain how they plan on making any money purposely rushing out bad games for GamePass when GP is a small revenue pool from them? And then they lose out on sales revenue, which is still their main money maker. And then why would people stay subscribed to GamePass in that scenario?

It’s make believe.
 
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feynoob

Banned
The difference is that Netflix started to have too much shit on it, and not enough good quality content sprinkled through to keep people invested. And they also started having though competition on that kind of service.

Who is competing right now with Game pass? You could argue that maybe Sony just started with their restructure of PS+, but not noly that on its infancy, but its also not on the level of Game Pass, since Sony first party games, one of the biggest drivers for the PS5 is not going to release day and date, and probably gonna take years to get in, at least for the most popular games. So for now MS has a monopoly on that service, and the ammmount of money you spend versus what you get in return is still too good to ignore.

If MS keeps butchering almost all of their first party games into the future, and more competitors appear on the market, you may have a point. But for now, thats not the case. And even if it was, the types of games more prevalent, at least from MS, would still shift to be more multiplayer/social oriented, because of the very nature of the service. And do you want to get, at least of their AAA input, just multiplayer/MMO/GAAS centric titles?
If MS messes up their games, it will be their downfall. It's not due to gamepass.

First party alone can't sustain a service like that. The entire industry will need to bend their knees to satisfy gamepass, because of how hungry it is.

To put it simply, MS needs not only their content on gamepass, but also EA play, and all other 3rd party studios that have agreement with MS. These games will have to be at the same level as MS. That is just impossible.

I think you need to drop your theory and examine the market outside of Xbox, and why companies are chasing this mtx model. You will gain more insight that way, instead of shifting the blame to gamepass.
 

MagnesD3

Member
I think it's definitely part of the reason thier console is failing at least, it's basically a big white we give up flag, has been since the start.
 

Nautilus

Banned
If MS messes up their games, it will be their downfall. It's not due to gamepass.

First party alone can't sustain a service like that. The entire industry will need to bend their knees to satisfy gamepass, because of how hungry it is.

To put it simply, MS needs not only their content on gamepass, but also EA play, and all other 3rd party studios that have agreement with MS. These games will have to be at the same level as MS. That is just impossible.

I think you need to drop your theory and examine the market outside of Xbox, and why companies are chasing this mtx model. You will gain more insight that way, instead of shifting the blame to gamepass.
You are thinking small, and not seeing the ramifications that a service like Gamepass would have on the quality and TYPE of game devs would need to produce to keep that service going. Actually, the consequences are already there, as more and more MS games are more GAAS/multiplaer/social focused, and most of them have microtransations in it. You could say that's simply a trend, that companies want to make more money off their products, and that's half of the truth. But the other half is that they want their games to last longer, and for them to last longer they need extra revenue to keep that game going. And that will be exarcebated in services like Game Pass. And only some types of game can be constantly updated, and thus certain genres end up taking a hit in quality(because they won't bring the desired profit in a platform that don't let them properly grow).

And no, it doesn't need all that people lol. If Game Pass got as big as you seem to insinuate, it would mean that MS and thus Gamepass would be too big to ignore, and Microsft could pay the price they want for the games comming into the service. So the costs of putting games there wouldn't ballon out of proportion, and would also mean that the subscriber number would be much bigger than they are today. It wouldn't be impossible. That's what Netflix did in the early days before all the competition started appearing, and they did just fine. Netflix had 232.5 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS at their prime. If Gamepass had even half that number(115 million), and each paid 20 dollars a month, totaling 2.3 billion dollars EVERY MONTH, do you really think it would be impossible to sustain that business model? That's what MS is trying to do.

The point being: MS has enough studios to feed Gamepass as it is today. They just need to get their shit together. 23 studios can very well produce 5 big games a year if they are properly managed. And the third party games flow we have today is more than enough to keep people plugged into the system.

Take a step back, and do the math. Wonder why Disney, Netflix, HBO, peacock, and most of the bigger films and tv shows companies are all doing and placing their bet on streaming services(subscription services). If they hit it big, they REALLY hit it big, and thats MS what is trying to achieve. Its only logical. And you will see why MS games are shifting more into the genres and structures of multiplayer games and less to single player games and know why Game Pass is the culprit.
 
Honestly the entire brand is being mismanaged in my opinion. They spent a metric f*ckton of money and haven't produced much of anything with it. I can see why the CEO is pissed. As far as Gamepass, i'm sure it results in a smaller ROI for games and that in turn mostly likely effects development. As much as i love Gamepass, i think the fact that we don't see any high quaility AAA games coming out from Microsoft speaks volumes about how the service is affecting them.
 
Holy shit the answers some of you have… instead of attacking the dude offer some proof on why he’s wrong or something. Maybe he wants Xbox to succeed and he’s looking for something to blame?
I mean he has OPINION on the damn title.
 

feynoob

Banned
You are thinking small, and not seeing the ramifications that a service like Gamepass would have on the quality and TYPE of game devs would need to produce to keep that service going. Actually, the consequences are already there, as more and more MS games are more GAAS/multiplaer/social focused, and most of them have microtransations in it. You could say that's simply a trend, that companies want to make more money off their products, and that's half of the truth. But the other half is that they want their games to last longer, and for them to last longer they need extra revenue to keep that game going. And that will be exarcebated in services like Game Pass. And only some types of game can be constantly updated, and thus certain genres end up taking a hit in quality(because they won't bring the desired profit in a platform that don't let them properly grow).
Only the person who can't see the state of industry believes this.
I suggest you check the industry first.


And no, it doesn't need all that people lol. If Game Pass got as big as you seem to insinuate, it would mean that MS and thus Gamepass would be too big to ignore, and Microsft could pay the price they want for the games comming into the service. So the costs of putting games there wouldn't ballon out of proportion, and would also mean that the subscriber number would be much bigger than they are today. It wouldn't be impossible. That's what Netflix did in the early days before all the competition started appearing, and they did just fine. Netflix had 232.5 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS at their prime. If Gamepass had even half that number(115 million), and each paid 20 dollars a month, totaling 2.3 billion dollars EVERY MONTH, do you really think it would be impossible to sustain that business model? That's what MS is trying to do.
And Netflix is losing people, because they canceling projects left and right plus cracking on passwords share. MS will face that issue if they act like shit and try to force shit on gamepass users.


The point being: MS has enough studios to feed Gamepass as it is today. They just need to get their shit together. 23 studios can very well produce 5 big games a year if they are properly managed. And the third party games flow we have today is more than enough to keep people plugged into the system.
No, MS does not. The beauty of gamepass is that you as a subscriber have the choice to play games that you want or like. MS puts all kind of genre to the service. Their first party alone isn't enough for gamepass. Especially for a service that will have 50m in the future.


Take a step back, and do the math. Wonder why Disney, Netflix, HBO, peacock, and most of the bigger films and tv shows companies are all doing and placing their bet on streaming services(subscription services). If they hit it big, they REALLY hit it big, and thats MS what is trying to achieve. Its only logical. And you will see why MS games are shifting more into the genres and structures of multiplayer games and less to single player games and know why Game Pass is the culprit.
You really don't understand it.
You keep thinking about the math, but not the process of getting there. To reach the end goal, MS should never piss off those users. Especially with Sony making the same service as gamepass.
 

bitbydeath

Member
They dropped their 3rd party partnership.
One of reason why Phil fucked up this brand.

Xbox could have had exclusive games from 3rd party devs.

Scalebound scared them away.
They had an opportunity to acquire Epic Games after Gears 3 (long before Fortnite) or at least got the 40% share Tencent had paid $330M for. Instead they only grabbed the Gears IP.
 
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feynoob

Banned
They had an opportunity to acquire Epic Games after Gears 3 (long before Fortnite) or at least got the 40% share Tencent had paid $330M for.
Not to mention Sega during early Xbox.
If MS were smart, Sega plus rare would have helped them make a must grab content for Xbox.
 
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