Trogdor1123
Gold Member
depends on the game for me. I really like turn based rpgs and always will. I like action games too though.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Games without real time combat are deal breaker for me.... you?
- Thread starter GigaBowser
- Start date
- Social Poll Hype
lyan
Member
13 is the evolved version If you think of each paradigm role as a preconfigured gambit tree, they just didn't explore deeper in that regard while also suffered with pacing problems.
intbal
Member
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Turn based for me isn't that fun unless they include a mechanic to keep it entertaining. Deltarune and Undertale (which don't get enough recognition on this forum) did this perfectly with how it's turn based but there's bullet hell elements inserted in the gameplay to keep it from being a snorefest. Alot of those game's bosses (Sans, Undyne, Spamton NEO, Dark King, omega flowey, list goes on) especially took advantage of these mechanics to make all of them standout and very fun to replay. There's also Paper Mario, South Park stick of truth and bug fables, all of which include gameplay and timing elements to keep the combat from being boring as well as all having badge/perk systems with tons of badges to keep the game replayable and expirimental with each playthrough
Although real time combat isn't that good either. most JRPGs with realtime don't have the gameplay complexity of something like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta to really be that entertaining. there's some outliers like nier automata and the tales franchise, but most of them aren't that well implemented or fun to me. if you want to go the real time route, make the combos actually really fucking fun to do and not just slow awkward and sluggish
Although real time combat isn't that good either. most JRPGs with realtime don't have the gameplay complexity of something like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta to really be that entertaining. there's some outliers like nier automata and the tales franchise, but most of them aren't that well implemented or fun to me. if you want to go the real time route, make the combos actually really fucking fun to do and not just slow awkward and sluggish
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
ProgenitorCastle
Banned
I'm almost exclusively action based real time combat, but I don't have anything specific against turn based these days. When I was younger I didn't like them, but these days I wouldn't mind trying them
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
About that last part: Dragon's Dogma came to me as the best combat system in any ARPG, ever. It feels really good, and not some half assed solution.
I also agree with the first part of your post. Turn based combat is nice unless it ends up beign "just spam your strongest attack dude". That's what got me in love with the SMT games, as you can't rush a single fight in those games.
Other pretty cool turn based systems could be that of the Grandia games, or those games in which you juggle your enemies in the air, like Valkyrie Profile or the Mugen no Frontier ones.
BossLackey
Gold Member
I like both, it's really about the depth for me.
March Climber
Member
There are too many games out there that have done turn-based combat wrong, that it's easily understandable why the genre has mostly moved to mobile platforms. Here's a list of flaws of what most turn-based combat game developers usually don't consider on the user side of things:
1) Taking forever during combat(this is the biggest offense). In old school NES Final Fantasy, after you've selected to cast a spell or do an attack, it lasted up to 5 seconds long at most. Most other usual attacks were 1-3 seconds long. It was very quick, like snap a finger and a move happened type of quick.
_04.gif)
This snappy animation gave you almost instant results as to what damage was done once the action started happening. Once the fight was over you had a 2 second celebration animation and you moved on. SNES-era and onwards, Square and other devs started adding more and more animations to everything, and then adding 'fight begins' animation, 'fight ending' animations, 'flashy attack' animations, and 'charge up' animations on top of that. Then you have the games that add a 'spin the wheel' mechanic or something else, while fun in the first few hours, just ends up being more of a time waster overall.
/Update%2002/10-bZWE6To.gif)
Keep in mind I'm not saying these games are all bad. I'm simply stating that they don't respect the user's time enough. While this doesn't seem like a lot at first, you start to add up how many times you're going to see these same animations repeated throughout the game and also the time being wasted on every single character animation, and you end up with fights that have lasted 5 minutes or more when 9 times out of 10 you already knew you were most likely going to win the fight anyway. And that brings me to my next point:
2) The difficulty of most turn based games became too easy. Yes, I know that games like SMT, X-com, and Darkest Dungeon exist, but for every one of those games we get about 5 to 10 JRPGS that just feel like cruise control. There are games so bad about it that you feel like you can just sit the controller down and just let things ride out with the A.I. Thank goodness a fast forward button has been popping up in turn-based RPGS in recent years. While some games out there add cool mechanics, what does it matter when the fight is essentially over before it began? When it doesn't challenge your mind? All you're left with at that point is mashing a button on the same menu options repeatedly. Most turn based RPGs used to feel like chess against a high level player or at worse Checkers. Now most turn based RPGs feel like Tic-Tac-Toe or Connect 4, giving you just enough of that dopamine to feel smart and good, making sure you don't think too long or hard about anything, including the quality of the game itself like the story. That brings me to my next point:
3) Storytelling quality fell down a cliff. There are a lot of factors at play here. Most of the creative minds out there have moved on to other genres, and then you add the massive influence of slice of life anime and other things prevalent in Japanese culture that are another topic entirely, and we've ended up where we are today, where some turn based games just don't have a decent story at all. They'll trade all good plot and scenario writing for half-assed character writing, where for some reason I need to know a side character's favorite ice cream flavor and what their favorite music playlist contains. Persona games ride that fine line but the key difference is that they at least have better writers who can approach the serious stuff just as well as the slice of life side. For some reason, there's a big enough subset of people out there who love this stuff so devs keep feeding into it to get easy enough money.
(I know this isn't a turn based JRPG but this youtube thumbnail and the present dialogue are what I'm talking about)
I'm not saying yesteryear turn-based RPG writing was master class or anything, but you could feel the passion they had to try and tell a deep story with cool twists and potential life lessons included.
On a side note regarding this, voice acting(when it's just two still images talking to each other) also slows down the story pacing a ton and ends up going to my 1st point again.
I've learned to be thankful for the few devs out there still working hard to bring high budget turn-based games to the public. Turn based RPGs and especially JRPGs have needed a shakeup for years, but unfortunately the audience is perfectly fine with the genre becoming just as niche as current day MMOs(That aren't WoW, ESO, and FFXIV). Sorry for the wall of text but I used to love this genre and it used to be the king of genres during a certain moment of time(I'd say 1990 to around 2006). The people who said 'turn based can go away now that the tech has caught up' just never understood that it was never about the tech.
1) Taking forever during combat(this is the biggest offense). In old school NES Final Fantasy, after you've selected to cast a spell or do an attack, it lasted up to 5 seconds long at most. Most other usual attacks were 1-3 seconds long. It was very quick, like snap a finger and a move happened type of quick.
This snappy animation gave you almost instant results as to what damage was done once the action started happening. Once the fight was over you had a 2 second celebration animation and you moved on. SNES-era and onwards, Square and other devs started adding more and more animations to everything, and then adding 'fight begins' animation, 'fight ending' animations, 'flashy attack' animations, and 'charge up' animations on top of that. Then you have the games that add a 'spin the wheel' mechanic or something else, while fun in the first few hours, just ends up being more of a time waster overall.
Keep in mind I'm not saying these games are all bad. I'm simply stating that they don't respect the user's time enough. While this doesn't seem like a lot at first, you start to add up how many times you're going to see these same animations repeated throughout the game and also the time being wasted on every single character animation, and you end up with fights that have lasted 5 minutes or more when 9 times out of 10 you already knew you were most likely going to win the fight anyway. And that brings me to my next point:
2) The difficulty of most turn based games became too easy. Yes, I know that games like SMT, X-com, and Darkest Dungeon exist, but for every one of those games we get about 5 to 10 JRPGS that just feel like cruise control. There are games so bad about it that you feel like you can just sit the controller down and just let things ride out with the A.I. Thank goodness a fast forward button has been popping up in turn-based RPGS in recent years. While some games out there add cool mechanics, what does it matter when the fight is essentially over before it began? When it doesn't challenge your mind? All you're left with at that point is mashing a button on the same menu options repeatedly. Most turn based RPGs used to feel like chess against a high level player or at worse Checkers. Now most turn based RPGs feel like Tic-Tac-Toe or Connect 4, giving you just enough of that dopamine to feel smart and good, making sure you don't think too long or hard about anything, including the quality of the game itself like the story. That brings me to my next point:
3) Storytelling quality fell down a cliff. There are a lot of factors at play here. Most of the creative minds out there have moved on to other genres, and then you add the massive influence of slice of life anime and other things prevalent in Japanese culture that are another topic entirely, and we've ended up where we are today, where some turn based games just don't have a decent story at all. They'll trade all good plot and scenario writing for half-assed character writing, where for some reason I need to know a side character's favorite ice cream flavor and what their favorite music playlist contains. Persona games ride that fine line but the key difference is that they at least have better writers who can approach the serious stuff just as well as the slice of life side. For some reason, there's a big enough subset of people out there who love this stuff so devs keep feeding into it to get easy enough money.
(I know this isn't a turn based JRPG but this youtube thumbnail and the present dialogue are what I'm talking about)
I'm not saying yesteryear turn-based RPG writing was master class or anything, but you could feel the passion they had to try and tell a deep story with cool twists and potential life lessons included.
On a side note regarding this, voice acting(when it's just two still images talking to each other) also slows down the story pacing a ton and ends up going to my 1st point again.
I've learned to be thankful for the few devs out there still working hard to bring high budget turn-based games to the public. Turn based RPGs and especially JRPGs have needed a shakeup for years, but unfortunately the audience is perfectly fine with the genre becoming just as niche as current day MMOs(That aren't WoW, ESO, and FFXIV). Sorry for the wall of text but I used to love this genre and it used to be the king of genres during a certain moment of time(I'd say 1990 to around 2006). The people who said 'turn based can go away now that the tech has caught up' just never understood that it was never about the tech.
Last edited:
ZoukGalaxy
Member
My last turn based game was... BREATH OF FIRE 2 on SNES back in the 90s, borrowed from a friend: I finished it but I was so traumatized I never played again a turned bases RPG game since.
BTW the OST is EPIC until this day
BTW the OST is EPIC until this day
Lucifers Beard
Member
I understand why you feel that way but I love both types. X-Com wouldn’t be the same with real time combat.
Sorry mate, but this might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site.
Amazing.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sentenza
Member
There's plenty of bad turn-based combat around, sure, as there's plenty of bad action combat...
But if you are someone who dislikes GOOD turn-based combat, you're rotten garbage that should be set aflame and kicked down a precipice, in my humble opinion.
And if you think "turn-based is an obsolete design choice that exists only because technical limits from the past" you technically qualify as a bona fide retarded.
But if you are someone who dislikes GOOD turn-based combat, you're rotten garbage that should be set aflame and kicked down a precipice, in my humble opinion.
And if you think "turn-based is an obsolete design choice that exists only because technical limits from the past" you technically qualify as a bona fide retarded.
Last edited:
CamHostage
Member
I was that way as a kid, thinking, "Who are these people who like playing menus??", but as an adult, I've found myself craving more tactical, more measured, more risk-and-reward combat strategy in a good turn-based combat game. And frankly, I get bored of button-mashing or clicky-clicking. Auto-battles and turn-based combat, where I can see the possibilities like a chess match and can try things out for maximal impact (...or can see at a glance that I'm fucked and need to retreat or make some sacrifices to save my skin,) that has increasingly appealed to me these days. The modern Action-RPG, where they just give enemies 100x the hitpoints and don't add many of the attack patterns or hand-placed enemy locations of "real" action games, those games aren't better because they combine two genres, they just take longer to play that they need to for the amount of combat fun that's inherently in the game.
I think it's a shame that we may never see a traditional Final Fantasy turn-based or ATB game again...
I think it's a shame that we may never see a traditional Final Fantasy turn-based or ATB game again...
Last edited:
Keihart
Member
There some very cool hybrids but i guess there are very few devs interested into experimenting with it anymore.
I really like Tri-Ace attempts at it, Valkyrie Profile 2 and Resonance of Fate combat systems felt pretty unique and had lot of potential if iterated upon.
Keihart
Member
Yes, Yakuza combat is very skill based, totally.
On a serious note, strategy and mechanical are both types of skills, there is also luck as a skill set, believe or not. Calling mechanical skill , just skill, is selling games short.
Most game mechanics balance these 3 types of skills to create a specific type of challenge.
kunonabi
Member
Except real time systems never are. They're ways just mindless hack and slashes or mmo combat. If anything developers always dumb that shit down to make it as "accessible" as possible.
If you take it as one, indeed it is.
The_hunter
Member
I have no preference, as long as it's good.
Gamer_By_Proxy
Member
The only turn-based combat that I didn't completely hate was Mario+Rabbids, but even that I haven't played much of it.
Keihart
Member
Completly agree with how overplayed it is, but it worked on dissidia.
That being said, everyone is on the bandwagon of break this bar before doing real damage now, even action games.
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
When my fingers are destroyed from years of rhythm games and office work, I will always have my turn based JRPGs about Japanese teenagers killing God to rely on.
anthony2690
Banned
"Games without real time combat are deal breaker for me.... you?"
I assumed OP, was asking what is a deal breaker for us.
And it depends how slow it is, and how frequent, for example I dropped octopath traveller as it was frequent for my liking.
Captain Toad
Banned
I love turn-based games. I wish we got more AAA turn-based games. The SNES and PS1 was the peak of JRPGs, with constant great AAA turn-based games.
Flyingpanther
Member
Nope I hate turn base. Tried a couple of turnbase games persona 5 and yakuza but I just find it boring . I love yakuza, but because the turn base I will never buy a yakuza game anymore.
Guilty_AI
Member
I would shit my pants if i found some other me out there