Support NeoGAF

[Portugeezer]

Win/win for MS as you'll keep paying your gamepass subscription as you wait.

5D chess from Phil Spencer.

 

[Patrick S.]

As cringe and clickbaity as it is, these articles need to happen when mediocrity gets shoved into the hands of consumers used as beta testers for incomplete games.

I guess we need an Alexander Battaglia video where he explains how to make proper Xbox versions.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

The difference is that Zelda is limited by the hardware and can't be 60fps unless they completely redesigned the game to something different. The same can't be said for this one, it's just taking the usual "release first, fix later" approach.

There will Yuzu mod to play the new Zelda at 60fps I have no doubt.

 

[Ozriel]

What misinformed chatter ? The game doesn't look good in previews, in released videos or most of commentary. We shall see in reviews, but expectations should be very low for this one. Developer pulled 60 fps performance mode close to release. This is an online only game.

There’s a ‘previews’ thread. Previews were nearly unanimously positive.
Is it possible final reviews can be worse and the game gets harshly reviewed? Of course. But it’s strange to make the definitive claim for yourself that the game is mediocre without seeing reviews

Point being that potentially empty promises for future fixes cannot be utilized to sell games if customers half any sort of relevant common sense left. We have seen issues many times over last couple years with broken or badly performing games on PC being released and sold on promises of future improvement.

An additional 60fps mode isn’t really a ‘fix’, though. It’s a post launch visual setting.

Shame. Games like Dish and Prey were at least relatively unique in the market. Now they're stuck doing GaaS onlineshooters like every other studio.

The game isn’t GaaS. It’s been covered extensively. But it wouldn’t be a Redfall thread without uninformed trolling.

 

[Bojji]

Is the game fun to play? If yes, play, if no, stop. Frame rates, resolutions, particle effects, ray tracing, bullshit bullshit bullshit, I don’t play buzzwords.

30fps games can't be that much fun to play, gameplay is limited by high input lag and bad image quality (looks shit in motion). Gameplay and FPS are connected, graphics quality isn't.

They could have made it 1080p at launch but with 60fps and people would enjoy it more.

 

[Team Andromeda]

The difference is that Zelda is limited by the hardware and can't be 60fps unless they completely redesigned the game to something different. The same can't be said for this one, it's just taking the usual "release first, fix later" approach.

I was being sarcastic and watch GamesRadar have no issues with 30 FPS next month.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Because the technical requirements for what Redfall is doing isn't happening in Destiny, Division, and Far Cry. My metrics are what Redfall is doing. The closest is Gotham Knights. That was my goal from the beginning and hasn't changed. Pointing to other older games that aren't doing the same thing is meaningless.

And what is that?

Can you name a few things that Redfall is doing that other games like, say, Far Cry and Destiny 2 aren't doing?

 

[The_Mike]

I remember when the majority in here were fine with the "quality" of graphics with 30 fps.

And now people can't stand it after being fed with 60 fps.

I don't even get why people go 4k for 60 fps. I can't go below 120 fps again it runs so slow.

 

[Astray]

Makes no sense to call it ‘false advertising’ when PC players will run at that at launch.

Not if you are showing said PC previews with controller button prompts (because you told previewers to use a controller on PC for game that is clearly best played on a kb+m).

That's a kind of dishonesty.

 

[xrnzaaas]

There should always be an option between performance and quality modes, even if performance mode takes a big hit in the visuals department. And if you can't make your game run in 60fps in any resolution & graphics settings, then it means it's not ready for launch.

 

[geary]

Satya Nadella reaction to the news he paid 7.5 billions for 30 FPS

 

[DenchDeckard]

I'm actually happy this backlash is happening, becuase 60 fps should be the baseline for any game you are making. 30 fps should not even be an option imo.

I mean, if you are dealing with switch hardware I get you have no option, but these consoles should have enough power to do 60 fps games.

 

[DarkMage619]

And what is that?

Can you name a few things that Redfall is doing that other games like, say, Far Cry and Destiny 2 aren't doing?

Well first off all 4 players in Redfall are completely untethered in the open world. You cannot do that in Destiny or Division. Far Cry has only 2 player co-op and you must be within 250m of each other. Plus Redfall's world is much larger as well. Have you played Gotham Knights? That is closest parallel. Just because one last gen FPS runs at 60fps doesn't mean all FPSs offer the same features or run the same engine. The technology is different so each will have different performance parameters.

Not if you are showing said PC previews with controller button prompts (because you told previewers to use a controller on PC for game that is clearly best played on a kb+m).

That's a kind of dishonesty.

Windows uses Xbox controller prompts when you play with an Xbox controller on PC. It makes sense seeing how MS makes both Windows and Xbox. How is that dishonest? What would MS use if they aren't going to use the controller prompts of the controller they make?

I'm actually happy this backlash is happening, becuase 60 fps should be the baseline for any game you are making. 30 fps should not even be an option imo.

I mean, if you are dealing with switch hardware I get you have no option, but these consoles should have enough power to do 60 fps games.

I'm thinking gamers need to realize that not all games are alike and just because one game runs at 60fps does not mean any and all games will. Without knowing the underlying technology compromises are usually made to get higher frame rates.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Well first off all 4 players in Redfall are completely untethered in the open world. You cannot do that in Destiny or Division. Far Cry has only 2 player co-op and you must be within 250m of each other. Plus Redfall's world is much larger as well. Have you played Gotham Knights? That is closest parallel. Just because one last gen FPS runs at 60fps doesn't mean all FPSs offer the same features or run the same engine. The technology is different so each will have different performance parameters.


Windows uses Xbox controller prompts when you play with an Xbox controller on PC. It makes sense seeing how MS makes both Windows and Xbox. How is that dishonest? What would MS use if they aren't going to use the controller prompts of the controller they make?


I'm thinking gamers need to realize that not all games are alike and just because one game runs at 60fps does not mean any and all games will. Without knowing the underlying technology compromises are usually made to get higher frame rates.

I just think a studio should be targetting 60 fps from inception and then make the game work around that.

 

[Astray]

Windows uses Xbox controller prompts when you play with an Xbox controller on PC. It makes sense seeing how MS makes both Windows and Xbox. How is that dishonest? What would MS use if they aren't going to use the controller prompts of the controller they make?

I use a controller on PC, I know that Xbox button prompts show by default (some games give you options in case you're using a PS/Switch controller, others you have to mod in).

I still don't understand why not just have the previews play with keyboard and mouse like the vast majority of PC gamers will. The only reason you would make all previews use controllers on PC (while conveniently not mentioning the system used) is if you wanted people to assume that Xbox would run it in 4k60.

Even the IGN First preview didn't mention anything about it being a PC copy (until that Steam overlay popped in). Here's the description:

Get a first look at one of Redfall's tougher Vampire enemy variants, the Rook. Summoned in a barrage of red lightning, Redfall's Rook is sure to give you and your team a tough time, though your efforts will be generously rewarded with some sweet, sweet loot. Redfall is the IGN First for the month of April 2023. Throughout the month we'll be showing off new looks at gameplay, boss fights, character profiles and their backstories, as well as some in-depth developement insights from the studio heads at Arkane Austin.

 

[StereoVsn]

There’s a ‘previews’ thread. Previews were nearly unanimously positive.
Is it possible final reviews can be worse and the game gets harshly reviewed? Of course. But it’s strange to make the definitive claim for yourself that the game is mediocre without seeing reviews


An additional 60fps mode isn’t really a ‘fix’, though. It’s a post launch visual setting.


The game isn’t GaaS. It’s been covered extensively. But it wouldn’t be a Redfall thread without uninformed trolling.

We have had multiple previews, gameplay deep dives and so on. I mean sure, miracles can happen. We shall see soon.

For the 60fps feature, no, it's not just a visual setting. If it was they would have it at launch. They must have a bottleneck somewhere.

To be fair, the game isn't true GaaS game it seems (we will see their DLC/MTX structure post release), but it's always online. Issue is they are under some of the same pressure. If the game doesn't sell enough, what's the incentive for MS to keep the lights on?

 

[Represent.]

I like you.....I like you alot.

 

[DaGwaphics]

There should always be an option between performance and quality modes, even if performance mode takes a big hit in the visuals department. And if you can't make your game run in 60fps in any resolution & graphics settings, then it means it's not ready for launch.

That's literally ridiculous. Do you realize how many last-gen games could have never been produced with that mindset?

And this gen of consoles are no different from the last, the hardware will age just as poorly. That's simply the nature of fixed hardware in an industry where the performance is constantly shifting forward around you. You either choose development stagnation and continue to play PS4/X1 games at higher res and framerates or you move forward which means you stress the CPUs on these systems more. Not all games will do that, but many will by the end of the generation.

 

[Ozriel]

Issue is they are under some of the same pressure. If the game doesn't sell enough, what's the incentive for MS to keep the lights on?

Online connection requirement for single player was needed only for telemetry type data, and devs have pledged to remove that.

Either way, this is a disingenuous ’concern’. It’s Microsoft. Game will remain online for the next decade at least.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

I remember when the majority in here were fine with the "quality" of graphics with 30 fps.

And now people can't stand it after being fed with 60 fps.

I don't even get why people go 4k for 60 fps. I can't go below 120 fps again it runs so slow.

I don't think anybody was preaching 30FPS for fast paced multiplayer first person shooters. That shit is abysmal.

 

[StereoVsn]

Online connection requirement for single player was needed only for telemetry type data, and devs have pledged to remove that.

Either way, this is a disingenuous ’concern’. It’s Microsoft. Game will remain online for the next decade at least.

Pledging to do shit and doing shit is a different animal. We have seen publishers pledging and never finishing what they pledged.

As for telemetry data not costing much, MS is in cost cutting mode, anything can be on the cutting floor now days. They are making serious changes and cutting engineers as an example.

If the game has decent engagement / sales, no issue. If it tanks, chances are dev resources will be pulled and all bets are off on long term maintenance.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Satya Nadella reaction to the news he paid 7.5 billions for 30 FPS

The fanboyism is a bit overdone with the attacks here but I alway love this meme.

Question: why the fuck are consoles not using FSR more? FSR it to 60 fps and improve later at least?

Arkane always has problematic engine performances honestly, I recall Dishonored 2 having dog shit performances on PC at launch. Hopefully Microsoft makes either an internal engine the de facto or to switch to UE5 after the wave of “pre-merge” games are done.

 

[therealmoonface]

30fps games can't be that much fun to play, gameplay is limited by high input lag and bad image quality (looks shit in motion). Gameplay and FPS are connected, graphics quality isn't.

They could have made it 1080p at launch but with 60fps and people would enjoy it more.

From what I’ve read, the game being untethered co-op puts a lot of strain on the CPU so lowering the resolution would’ve had minimum impact. Either way, those individuals can also wait for the 60 fps patch.

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

I agree 30 FPS is pathetic

 

[acm2000]

its very brave of GamesRadar to stop covering the switch

 

[DarkMage619]

I just think a studio should be targetting 60 fps from inception and then make the game work around that.

I think that 60fps titles tends to require lower resolution and lower effects experience and in a visual medium most developers are more likely to push graphical bells and whistles than framerate. With MS making every game on PC they are probably thinking that if a gamer wants to turn something off they can but they aren't necessarily developing around that.

Sometimes the tech in games doesn't support the higher framerate of even it if would be ideal. There has to be some acceptance that consoles especially have limitations and tech being pushed may limit the framerate. Hopefully more techniques are used to allow an easier time to reach higher frames. Perhaps a 40fps mode can be used more frequently.

I use a controller on PC, I know that Xbox button prompts show by default (some games give you options in case you're using a PS/Switch controller, others you have to mod in).

I still don't understand why not just have the previews play with keyboard and mouse like the vast majority of PC gamers will. The only reason you would make all previews use controllers on PC (while conveniently not mentioning the system used) is if you wanted people to assume that Xbox would run it in 4k60.

Even the IGN First preview didn't mention anything about it being a PC copy (until that Steam overlay popped in). Here's the description:

Did any of the previews claim the game was running on console? If so that is absolutely dishonest. People attack Colt Eastwood but I'm pretty sure he said he played on PC with a controller. When you are holding an event with a bunch of people known to play on console it makes sense to have those people use the controller like they are most likely used to.

PC version also tend to be the first version created and they are simpler to modify on the fly so it is easier to show those versions off. As long as the people writing the previews don't claim they are playing on something they are not I dont see the issue.

From what I’ve read, the game being untethered co-op puts a lot of strain on the CPU so lowering the resolution would’ve had minimum impact. Either way, those individuals can also wait for the 60 fps patch.

CPU was also cited as the reason Gotham Knights was 30fps on consoles as well. This also impacted PC too but it could be brute forced there. Many people are critical but have no idea what technology is running in the background affecting obtaining a higher framerate. Games like Flight Simulator would never hit 60fps on consoles because of the nature of how data is streamed from the cloud. Should we call for a boycott of that game until it hits 60fps on consoles as well?

Comparisons with offline single player games on different engines and tethered multiplayer titles in smaller areas shows how little some gamers know about game structure and how higher performance is obtained.

 

[Astray]

People attack Colt Eastwood but I'm pretty sure he said he played on PC with a controller.

Colt is being attacked for defending the game initially then making a u-turn when he saw sentiment turn and start claiming he was under NDA and couldn't talk (bullshit imo, there are ways to convey disatisfaction with a preview build without breaking NDAs, Giant Bomb preview video is an example). He then proceeded to talk shit about how the PC version also ran badly (which is a complete no-no under NDA imo). He's a clown and I have no idea how he has any status in any community.

One thing I don't understand about this game is why they can't have like a 1080p/60fps mode for now and then patch in a performance mode. 1080p scales pretty decently to 4K and it would at least give the early community something that resembles a 60fps mode. Very strange tbh.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

The fanboyism is a bit overdone with the attacks here but I alway love this meme.

Question: why the fuck are consoles not using FSR more? FSR it to 60 fps and improve later at least?

Arkane always has problematic engine performances honestly, I recall Dishonored 2 having dog shit performances on PC at launch. Hopefully Microsoft makes either an internal engine the de facto or to switch to UE5 after the wave of “pre-merge” games are done.

Exactly. Why the FUCK aren't more games on console using FSR2?! For these first party games the blame lies squarely on Microsoft. MS has failed over and over with their "tools" and bringing all these great new features of the Series consoles TO the consoles. Ultimately, games like Redfall and Starfield being 30 fps on Series X is a BAD look and a fail.

People can make excuses all day long for why we shouldn't expect 30 on consoles but I think it's a load of BS, unless we're looking at a very demanding game like Hellblade 2 or Avatar, if Microsoft (arkane/bethesda) really wanted to there's no reason they can't target 60 on the Series X. Use some form of reconstruction and lower some settings. Do whatever they need to.

We're not in the previous gen anymore. Series X is a huge step up from last gen consoles. Don't accept what these companies are attempting to do.

 

[CGNoire]

Represent.

 

[Fredrik]

I'm actually happy this backlash is happening, becuase 60 fps should be the baseline for any game you are making. 30 fps should not even be an option imo.

I mean, if you are dealing with switch hardware I get you have no option, but these consoles should have enough power to do 60 fps games.

You never don’t have an option, no matter the hardware, there are 60fps games on Switch and even on C64 with a 1Mhz CPU. They just need to always have 60fps as the baseline and add the other fluff if they actually can, and do clever things with LOD and dynamic resolution and lower object animation fps on distans objects etc.

 

[SHA]

Does this gen , practically speaking , suddenly starts with 30 fps ? There was literally no time before we saw the nice things about it, it's either Remasters/Remakes or pushing to its limit unpleasantly.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Deleted my post wanting more games using FSR2. I'm now convinced FSR 2 is destroying image quality in almost every game I've seen it used in.