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GamesRadar: Sorry Redfall, I'm not going back to 30FPS console games

Fredrik

Member
I played RDR2 on both console and PC and the controls felt like shit on console due to animation input delay and 30fps as a combo. PC was fine and a night and day difference due to 60+fps and M/K.
The control latency don’t come from 30fps there and mouse and keyboard is always better for aiming, I also played it on PC too and tried using a controller which made it feel similar to console. Camera rotation stutter is always there with 30fps though, hate it.
 
I'm never going back to 30fps console gaming. I only tolerated it on PS4 because I loved Sony's exclusives so much. As a PC gamer it was always hard jumping between 60+fps on my PC and going down to 30fps on my PS4.

Now that next gen consoles are giving us the option of 60fps or higher I refuse to go back. I'm glad Sony seems to prioritize having framerate options in their games from 60fps to even higher with 120Hz support.


I don't know what the hell is going on at Microsoft but it doesn't seem like they've gotten the memo yet. They need to get with the program, console players this gen demand more options for framerates in games. I don't care about what fidelity or particle effects/physics you are pushing, give gamers the option for 60fps at the bare minimum even if things have to be downgraded a bit. Gone are the days when console gamers blindly accepted 30fps, they've tasted 60fps and they want more. I'm glad as a PC and console gamer I don't have to adjust my eyes to horrible framerates when I leave my PC and switch to PS5 like I did with the PS4. I don't mind worse resolutions in games, framerate is king for me especially with fast paced competitive shooters that I still like to play on consoles.
 
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aries_71

Junior Member
I would say, let's give Arkane the benefit of the doubt. They are playtesting the game, and surely believe that the compromise between graphics and fps is at sweet spot for their game. They are the only one to know it right now, and the rest is just drama and speculation. They also are aware that many players would prefer a higher FPS. Fine, they said that they will patch it in as soon as they can. Lets support the guys, their are pouring all their effort on this.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
60 fps is a must, so I'll only be playing on PC until its patched.....imagine the damage that does to this kind of game?

Dead, with a hard road to recover from imo.

I think their only chance is that it ends up being a great game and that 60 fps patch comes quick and they can support the game like rare did with sea of thieves.

The one thing we know MS I'd good at is, if the game has something going for it and can be turned into a good long term game...they will give the studio the funds required to continue to support it.
 

Rykan

Member
I understand having a preference for >30fps, but not playing a game because it's 30 FPS is outrageous as far as I'm concerned. When did we stop playing games because they were good games, and only play them as long as the framerate/resolution was above some arbitrary threshold
Because standards are raised. Much in the same way that we don't tolerate 15fps or 20fps games anymore.

The more you get used to playing 60 fps games, the harder it is to go back to 30 fps. It simply diminishes the enjoyment of the game. 30 FPS games need justification for running at that framerate and Redfall simply isn't doing that.
 

samoilaaa

Member
30 fps is innevitable , unless you want to play games in 2024-2025+ at 1080p low settings

ofc redfall shouldnt be one of those games , it looks just as good as deathloop , maybe the ligthing is a little better but no way does it look like it can only do 30 fps
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
I guess it's worth making that stand but at least you have a PC version that exists if you want to try the game.

More people will end up playing this on console though so it is a shame it won't ship with s performance mode.
 

Bernardougf

Gold Member
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We recently learned that Redfall is going to hit Xbox Series X/S without a Performance Mode, locking the game to a 30FPS Quality Mode until a patch arrives sometime after release. Now, I need to speak to Redfall directly here: You look awesome, and I've spent a lot of years loving console games that ran at 30FPS - or worse. But PS5 and Xbox Series X have given us a glimpse of a glorious future where console games can run at 60FPS, and I'm not willing to give that up now.

Obviously, 60FPS performance modes are not yet universal on current-gen consoles. But we've begun to expect modern games - even gorgeous cinematic powerhouses like Sony's Horizon Forbidden West and God of War Ragnarok - to offer the option to go beyond 30FPS. These options have been common at least in part because many of these games were also built with the previous generation in mind, and if something can run to a reasonable standard on PS4 and Xbox One, surely it can be that much better on newer hardware.

That's about all the technical analysis you're going to get here, because I'm not qualified to provide much more and it ultimately doesn't matter much. 60FPS games simply feel dramatically better to play, and now that I've spent nearly three years getting used to console games with higher frame rates, I don't think there's any level of graphical fidelity impressive enough to make me willing to go back.

Redfallen​





Redfall is a particularly curious example, given how the vast majority of pre-launch gameplay videos we've seen have been recorded at 60FPS, an experience console players will be unable to enjoy for some (unknown amount of) time.

That makes this sudden Performance Mode announcement feel like a bit of a bait and switch. For as dumb as controversies like Spider-Man's puddlegate are, console Redfall fans are genuinely going to get a launch experience that is demonstrably less smooth than what we've seen in extensive pre-release footage.

Plus this is a cooperative action game, one that'll presumably offer rewards for taking on enemies at escalating difficulty levels over time. I'm sure none of that will be impossible at 30FPS, but when that 60FPS patch hits it's going to feel like the training weights have come off. But I don't think I'm going to have the patience to wait for that moment.

The new-gen crossroads​


6rCYTxmfT7HNE5QRreAdNF-1200-80.jpg.webp


This console generation is finally hitting its stride, and we're starting to see a strong run of current-gen exclusives. Games like the Dead Space remake and Forspoken have continued to offer 60FPS Performance Modes, while games like A Plague Tale: Requiem and Redfall are purely offering 30FPS options. We're at a bit of a crossroads here, and as devs start to really push the capabilities of the new machines, they're going to start asking the question: do we prioritize fancy visuals or smooth performance?

For me, that question is barely worth asking. We've seen loads of nice-looking games this generation already, but the true revelation of PS5 and Xbox Series X has been just how fast and snappy everything is. Quick resume, instant loading times, and, yes, high framerates. These are the features that have defined the new console generation, not better lighting or antialiasing.

Please, developers, I'm begging you. If you have to make me choose between Performance Mode and Quality Mode at launch, give me the one that actually makes the game play better.

Fingers crossed that more than a few of the biggest new games for 2023 will go the 60FPS route.


Who knew... thats one article from the game press I can stand behind... well done
 

Bernardougf

Gold Member
Y'all are the biggest bunch of little crybabies on the planet. Just try the damn game and see if the 30fps difference actually hurts the game in anyway or if you're just a bunch of prima donna's and won't be able to tell diff.
If your brain is damaged and cant see the clear difference between 30 fps diarrhea and 60fps dont be this condescending and blame us for your lack of visual capacity
 
Y'all are the biggest bunch of little crybabies on the planet. Just try the damn game and see if the 30fps difference actually hurts the game in anyway or if you're just a bunch of prima donna's and won't be able to tell diff.
You're right none of us have ever played a face paced 30 FPS game before. We don't know what we're talking about.
 

Bernardougf

Gold Member
People should spend less time listening to op-ed videos/reading articles, being told how to feel about things. If you don't want to go back to 30fps then wait for the announced 60fps patch, or buy it for PC where your options are dictated by your hardware and settings boxes.
Yeah the article told me .. so now I hate 30 fps... not everyone is a shill who listens to phil "the god" spencer talks and turn into gospel ....some of us can read something and think for ourselfs.. gtfo
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
These devs are doing a really great job so far... at sabotaging their own game, that is.

First cancelling the PS5 version, then the always-online controversy, and now this. They're making it really hard for me to give a shit about this thing at this point.
 

j.k.2021

Banned
I don't see casual audience caring much about it being 30 fps.What will hurt this game though is it being sandwiched between Star Wars Jedi: Survivor and Zelda.That's a disastrous release date.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
While this Redfall looks like ass graphically and has no real reason to be 30 FPS, I would say anybody expecting 30 FPS to not start coming back as we leave cross gen is deluding themselves

I'm prepared for Spiderman 2 to potentially be 30 FPS. And Naughty Dogs first fully next gen single player game will most certainly be
I don't think 30 FPS will be the norm. Unless you have shit developers and an awful production pipeline.

Sony doesn't have those problems and even their next-gen only games continue to offer 60 FPS (or sometimes even 120 FPS): Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart, Destruction All-Stars, FFXVI, Demon's Souls, Returnal, TLOU P1, etc.

HFW and GoWR, although cross-gen, are the best looking games currently out there in the market, and they offer up to 120 FPS.

If you have a good console, engine, developers, and production pipelines and tech, 60 FPS on next-gen only games wouldn't be a problem. We already have a precedence with PS Studios games.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Instead of a new thread, I'll put Forbe's Tassi's take on it here:


Should Xbox Delay ‘Redfall’ Again? Can It?​


On Wednesday, Arkane generated an intense amount of backlash when they announced that Redfall, their upcoming co-op loot shooter, would be launching only with “Quality Mode,” meaning it would maximize visuals but only run at 30 FPS on both the Xbox Series S and Series X. Performance Mode, which would get up to 60 FPS, would come at a later, unannounced date.



The announcement was thoroughly ratioed with 6,600 replies and 4,400 quote tweets, the general consensus being two things:

1) This is totally unacceptable, a sentiment even devoted Xbox fans and defenders seemed to agree with

2) The game should be delayed until it can launch with a 60 FPS performance option.

It’s additionally frustrating this is happening because all previews and marketing for Redfall have been in 60 FPS to date, which now paints an inaccurate picture of how the game will run on consoles at launch. Though it has been noted that Bethesda’s Todd Howard previous said that 30 FPS was acceptable for their games, and now it seems like we’re probably heading toward a 30 FPS Starfield launch too.

But Redfall seems like a different case where it’s not traversing 1,000 planets, but is a single map and stylized graphics that at least make it seem like hitting that FPS mark shouldn’t be hard (albeit this is a bit of armchair game dev-ing). Regardless, the end result is a lot of angry people and calls for a delay.



I would argue there are probably two main reasons for a delay. One of them might be this FPS issue, which may call into question overall console performance and what the PC port will look like. But the other is Redfall’s pretty silly release date on May 2, sandwiching it between Jedi Survivor (April 28) and Zelda’s Tears of the Kingdom on May 12. It feels like another delay (and yes, it was supposed to come out 6-8 months ago already) may be what it needs.

But I don’t think it’s going to happen. We are three weeks away from Redfall’s launch now. It’s not completely unheard of but I think Microsoft is pretty pot-committed at this point, and they have already made this calculation, hence the FPS announcement. I’m sure there are stats that more people play games on Quality Mode (which is usually the default setting in most games) and most “normie” gamers don’t care about this FPS controversy. So, the idea is probably that delaying the game might be the worse move, as then you have a different narrative of how unprepared they are for launch to do a last minute switch like this. Albeit that’s kind of already coming across.

I don’t think Arkane is used to the kind of scrutiny they’re getting here, but this is one of Microsoft’s big releases in the “we bought all these studios so start producing good games” era of Xbox, and they’re essentially going first with a AAA blockbuster. But yes, this is very much not a good start. Hopefully the game itself will turn out, even if this FPS issue remains present at launch.


 

Umbasaborne

Banned
If you thought that console games were gonna stay 60 fps after the cross gen period ended, then i have a bridge to sell you.

Edit: i didnt realize that they were previewing this game at 60 fps…yeah, thats false advertising, hope the game bombs
 
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Topher

Gold Member
And that somehow changes the picture when it comes to playability? 😂

“I literally can’t play 30fps games, it’s a slideshow. Though if it’s on weaker hardware, 30fps games suddenly becomes smooth enough to enjoy”

Integrity goes out the window when these guys write clickbait titles for their articles. As I said in the other thread, I think most people understand they that they are not getting a high performance console when they buy Switch. So as much as I have railed against 30 fps only games on PS5 and XSX, I do think it is reasonable to have a different set of expectations for Switch games. So this writer set himself up for this criticism, which I think is warranted, because he is more interested in his article being noticed than having consistency. The guy has written half a dozen Zelda articles in the last week or so and none of it is complaining about frame rate. He can't have it both ways if he is going to pretend to be so absolute in his stance about 30 fps games.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Instead of a new thread, I'll put Forbe's Tassi's take on it here:


Should Xbox Delay ‘Redfall’ Again? Can It?​


On Wednesday, Arkane generated an intense amount of backlash when they announced that Redfall, their upcoming co-op loot shooter, would be launching only with “Quality Mode,” meaning it would maximize visuals but only run at 30 FPS on both the Xbox Series S and Series X. Performance Mode, which would get up to 60 FPS, would come at a later, unannounced date.



The announcement was thoroughly ratioed with 6,600 replies and 4,400 quote tweets, the general consensus being two things:

1) This is totally unacceptable, a sentiment even devoted Xbox fans and defenders seemed to agree with

2) The game should be delayed until it can launch with a 60 FPS performance option.

It’s additionally frustrating this is happening because all previews and marketing for Redfall have been in 60 FPS to date, which now paints an inaccurate picture of how the game will run on consoles at launch. Though it has been noted that Bethesda’s Todd Howard previous said that 30 FPS was acceptable for their games, and now it seems like we’re probably heading toward a 30 FPS Starfield launch too.

But Redfall seems like a different case where it’s not traversing 1,000 planets, but is a single map and stylized graphics that at least make it seem like hitting that FPS mark shouldn’t be hard (albeit this is a bit of armchair game dev-ing). Regardless, the end result is a lot of angry people and calls for a delay.



I would argue there are probably two main reasons for a delay. One of them might be this FPS issue, which may call into question overall console performance and what the PC port will look like. But the other is Redfall’s pretty silly release date on May 2, sandwiching it between Jedi Survivor (April 28) and Zelda’s Tears of the Kingdom on May 12. It feels like another delay (and yes, it was supposed to come out 6-8 months ago already) may be what it needs.

But I don’t think it’s going to happen. We are three weeks away from Redfall’s launch now. It’s not completely unheard of but I think Microsoft is pretty pot-committed at this point, and they have already made this calculation, hence the FPS announcement. I’m sure there are stats that more people play games on Quality Mode (which is usually the default setting in most games) and most “normie” gamers don’t care about this FPS controversy. So, the idea is probably that delaying the game might be the worse move, as then you have a different narrative of how unprepared they are for launch to do a last minute switch like this. Albeit that’s kind of already coming across.

I don’t think Arkane is used to the kind of scrutiny they’re getting here, but this is one of Microsoft’s big releases in the “we bought all these studios so start producing good games” era of Xbox, and they’re essentially going first with a AAA blockbuster. But yes, this is very much not a good start. Hopefully the game itself will turn out, even if this FPS issue remains present at launch.



Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I still think that may be the plan.

Had MS delayed Redfall before this outcry, they'd have been criticized (and rightly so). Now they can delay the game by saying "we heard the community feedback" and people will praise them for the delay.
 

Yoboman

Member
I don't think 30 FPS will be the norm. Unless you have shit developers and an awful production pipeline.

Sony doesn't have those problems and even their next-gen only games continue to offer 60 FPS (or sometimes even 120 FPS): Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart, Destruction All-Stars, FFXVI, Demon's Souls, Returnal, TLOU P1, etc.

HFW and GoWR, although cross-gen, are the best looking games currently out there in the market, and they offer up to 120 FPS.

If you have a good console, engine, developers, and production pipelines and tech, 60 FPS on next-gen only games wouldn't be a problem. We already have a precedence with PS Studios games.
I don't really think those games have pushed graphical possibilities when we look at the likes of UE5.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Why would they delay it if some people don’t care and it will eventually get patched? What’s the point? 😵‍💫

Unless it’s completely broken just put it out.
 
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Umbasaborne

Banned
False advertising? There’s a PC version, and They’ve literally told you the launch Xbox framerate well before launch, and in enough time for you to cancel your preorder.



What else is new? 😀
Until now we were lead to believe that it was going to be 60 fps, previewing it at 60 fps was sneaky. Personally ill play it on pc, doesn't change the fact that this was false advertising, and i hope they face the circumstances for it
 
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Can anyone name any open world, untethered 4-player co-op, 1st person shooters that run at 60 fps on consoles? I'd like to see how other games pulled it off. Also does anyone actually care if this game is good or is the framerate the most important thing?
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
I don't really think those games have pushed graphical possibilities when we look at the likes of UE5.
I'm in the opposite camp; I think these games have already reached those UE5 tech demos.

The difference is that those UE5 demos didn't have other things that make it a "game", e.g., NPCs, a world, AI calculations, enemies that occupy space on screen, game mechanics, foliage, etc. If we added all that stuff in those UE5 demos, their quality would be very similar to what some of these games -- HFW, GoWR, Demon's Souls, R&C etc. -- would look like.

But as is the case in every generation, there is always room for improvement. And just like we do in every generation, those demos will be surpassed in games coming in the 2nd and 3rd phase of the generation, e.g., Uncharted 4 (2016) surpassed the UE4 tech demo (2012).
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Agree 60 fps option will not be the norm for all future games.

Until now we were lead to believe that it was going to be 60 fps, previewing it at 60 fps was sneaky. Personally ill play it on pc, doesn't change the fact that this was false advertising, and i hope they face the circumstances for it

The entire situation about Redfall is consonantly showing it at 60 fps....and finding out it was running on PC. I wonder how many ppl commented on any of the footage mentioning their XSX or Series S ...or how its gonna look on those 2 consoles.....before the recent 60fps coming later reveal.

From now on...I will just assume any first party MS game shown is running on PC. That alone is gonna make any showcase where they don't explicitly say what its running on ....interesting.

Some ppl seem fine going back to when bullshots were all over the place. Dont want transparency. Cool.
 
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Ozriel

M$FT
Until now we were lead to believe that it was going to be 60 fps, previewing it at 60 fps was sneaky. Personally ill play it on pc, doesn't change the fact that this was false advertising, and i hope they face the circumstances for it

Redfall is a Xbox Series and PC game. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with previewing it at 60fps, especially as that mode is supposedly coming to console post launch.

Makes no sense to call it ‘false advertising’ when PC players will run at that at launch.

They’ve disclosed this pre-launch, so you really have no leg to stand on with this ‘deceit’ argument. Can’t call something ‘false advertisement’ if it doesn’t lead to a sale.
 

Yoboman

Member
I'm in the opposite camp; I think these games have already reached those UE5 tech demos.

The difference is that those UE5 demos didn't have other things that make it a "game", e.g., NPCs, a world, AI calculations, enemies that occupy space on screen, game mechanics, foliage, etc. If we added all that stuff in those UE5 demos, their quality would be very similar to what some of these games -- HFW, GoWR, Demon's Souls, R&C etc. -- would look like.

But as is the case in every generation, there is always room for improvement. And just like we do in every generation, those demos will be surpassed in games coming in the 2nd and 3rd phase of the generation, e.g., Uncharted 4 (2016) surpassed the UE4 tech demo (2012).
The Matrix demo had most of those things. UE5 has had quite a few big updates since then too
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Redfall is a Xbox Series and PC game. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with previewing it at 60fps, especially as that mode is supposedly coming to console post launch.

Makes no sense to call it ‘false advertising’ when PC players will run at that at launch.

They’ve disclosed this pre-launch, so you really have no leg to stand on with this ‘deceit’ argument. Can’t call something ‘false advertisement’ if it doesn’t lead to a sale.
Some earlier footage of FF16 had a disclaimer that it was running on PC. Hell, one may have had development kit.

State of Play the other day for FF16 had Captured on PS5.

C'mon....there's no need to try to defend this.
 
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ANDS

King of Gaslighting
I find it difficult anyone can't tell the difference between 30 and 60 FPS. 60 vs 120, I can understand, but there is no way you can play a game at 60 for 10 minutes, switch it to 30 and think, "hmmm, this is fine".

What's your argument: that people can't tell the difference or that they are okay with the visual feedback, because your are conflating two things here.

No one would take 30 over 60 if the fidelity of the two was the same. Obviously.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
The entire situation about Redfall is consonantly showing it at 60 fps....and finding out it was running on PC. I wonder how many ppl commented on the footage mentioning XSX or Series S before the recent 60fps coming later reveal.

From now on...I will just assume any first party MS game shown is running on PC. That alone is gonna make any showcase where they don't explicitly say what its running on ....interesting.

Some ppl seem fine going back to when bullshots were all over the place. Dont want transparency. Cool.

It’s been years now and some of you cannot understand that Xbox is console AND PC.

PC releases for xbox first party arent an after thought like some other console makers. It’s a day 1 part of the Xbox ecosystem. Calling a PC build a ‘bullshot’ is just weird.

Microsoft needs to detail performance on Xbox hardware well before launch, and show pre-launch gameplay footage captured on console. That’s pretty much it.

Knowing the build platform is pretty much the least interesting part of any showcase, anyway.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
It’s been years now and some of you cannot understand that Xbox is console AND PC.

PC releases for xbox first party arent an after thought like some other console makers. It’s a day 1 part of the Xbox ecosystem. Calling a PC build a ‘bullshot’ is just weird.

Microsoft needs to detail performance on Xbox hardware well before launch, and show pre-launch gameplay footage captured on console. That’s pretty much it.

Knowing the build platform is pretty much the least interesting part of any showcase, anyway.
With Sony getting so much heat from some for cross gen, at least they made sure to say what was captured on the better hardware.

So....you don't want more transparency.....?

Interesting.
 
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Ozriel

M$FT
Some earlier footage of FF16 had a disclaimer that it was running on PC. Hell, one may have had development kit.

State of Play the other day had Captured on PS5.
FFXVI isn’t launching on PC until at least 6 months post release on PS5.

why would they not show the PS5 version?

So....you don't want more transparency.....?

Interesting.

When did I say I wouldn’t want more transparency? its useful info
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
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Umbasaborne

Banned
Agree 60 fps option will not be the norm for all future games.



The entire situation about Redfall is consonantly showing it at 60 fps....and finding out it was running on PC. I wonder how many ppl commented on any of the footage mentioning their XSX or Series S ...or how its gonna look on those 2 consoles.....before the recent 60fps coming later reveal.

From now on...I will just assume any first party MS game shown is running on PC. That alone is gonna make any showcase where they don't explicitly say what its running on ....interesting.

Some ppl seem fine going back to when bullshots were all over the place. Dont want transparency. Cool.
I think microsoft could have saved a lot of face in those previews if the footage had a watermark that said “footage shown is not indicative on xbox series console performance”. Sony is great about being upfront if something is being shown running on a pc or ps5.
 

GymWolf

Member
Your eyes double the framerate when you play them on a weak console?

From the article

“60FPS games simply feel dramatically better to play”

Gamesradar’s argument is purely about how 30fps plays.
I was just doing devil's advocate, of course nintendo is also at fault for having such a weak console.

But we know the switch and nobody was expecting great performance for the new zelda, but this game looks like a mid ps4 game and can't run at 1440p60 on a 12tf console? that's even worse than zelda.
 

Ar¢tos

Member
Can anyone name any open world, untethered 4-player co-op, 1st person shooters that run at 60 fps on consoles? I'd like to see how other games pulled it off. Also does anyone actually care if this game is good or is the framerate the most important thing?
Destiny 2 would be the closest, although not exactly open world, but it has 12 player free roam and 6 players raids, at 4k60.
 

Elios83

Member
Microsoft has found the way to fuck up the reception/release of yet an other game, it's incredible :messenger_grinning_sweat:
I guess they had to pick their poison, either the shitstorm over an other delay or a shitstorm around the lack of 60fps at launch.
At least in this way some people will still enjoy the game I guess and for those who want to play it at 60fps the game is effectively delayed?
I wonder if the issue is 60fps on Series S because I find hard to believe this game can't run at 60fps in some way on Xbox Series X...
 
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