Support NeoGAF

[Captain Toad]

What's your argument: that people can't tell the difference or that they are okay with the visual feedback, because your are conflating two things here.

My comment was directed the person who said they can't tell the difference between 30 and 60. Not that no one would choose a fidelity mode.

 

[lostinblue]

when that 60FPS patch hits it's going to feel like the training weights have come off. But I don't think I'm going to have the patience to wait for that moment.

Have they committed to a 60 fps patch?

Are you willing to acept a compromise down to locked 40 fps?

EDIT: It seems like Arkane is stuck doing lesser games now. Are they only aproving multiplayer shit for them? Who the fuck is greelighting this?

They were one of the best single player focused studio last gen, and late gen before that one too. Getting multiplayer focused games from them feels like eating vegetarian food on mcdonalds, it can still be good, but fuck this shit.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

I don't see the point in delaying it further over this because they aren't going to sell that many copies on XBox anyway.

How bad of shape do you think the PC version is?

 

[Ozriel]

but this game looks like a mid ps4 game and can't run at 1440p60 on a 12tf console? that's even worse than zelda.

Nobody ever said that, though. All they’ve said is 60fps support will be patched in post launch.

I think microsoft could have saved a lot of face in those previews if the footage had a watermark that said “footage shown is not indicative on xbox series console performance”. Sony is great about being upfront if something is being shown running on a pc or ps5.

It would not have changed the reaction and in fact the reaction thread on GAF one bit of they’d put that watermark.

“This game doesn’t look that good, why is it 30fps” is the general sentiment. A platform disclaimer wouldn’t have changed anything.

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

How fucking trendy of them.

At least play the game then decide if your done with 30.

 

[Ozriel]

Microsoft has found the way to fuck up the reception/release of yet an other game, it's incredible
I guess they had to pick their poison, either the shitstorm over an other delay or a shitstorm around the lack of 60fps at launch.
At least in this way some people will still enjoy the game I guess and for those who want to play it at 60fps the game is effectively delayed?
I wonder if the issue is 60fps on Series S because I find hard to believe this game can't run at 60fps in some way on Xbox Series X...

The reception of this game is entirely dependent on its quality - and that’s down to Arkane. Most review scores won’t hinge on the framerate.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Some of us have higher ambitions than "nice-looking". We want NEXT GENERATION GAMING.

Destruction.
Insane Fidelity.
Next Gen physics.
Larger scale battles.
Smarter A.I
Advanced Game design.

Where are the articles about that?

This is the much bigger issue. And it's what makes an article like this a downright embarrassment coming from a games journalist.

Basically, they are fine to indefinitely continue to play PS4/X1 games at 60fps on current gen systems vs. even considering upgrades outside of visuals that might benefit or even need that extra 16ms per frame on this hardware. Not that the hardware still isn't an upgrade at 60fps, with the CPUs being about 4x more powerful than last gen you can use half of that getting to 60 and still have uplift. But, there might be things that are just too intensive to get there, we'll see.

 

[Elios83]

The reception of this game is entirely dependent on its quality - and that’s down to Arkane. Most review scores won’t hinge on the framerate.

And yet there are already articles and videos all over the net shitting on the 30fps thing and drawing away attention from everything else ruining the conversation and any kind of pre-release hype the game could have.

 

[DaGwaphics]

And yet there are already articles and videos all over the net shitting on the 30fps thing and drawing away attention from everything else ruining the conversation and any kind of pre-release hype the game could have.

I'm sure this is the expected result, which is why they bothered to announce this in advance vs. having it hit when the review embargoes lifted. They are letting this run its course now and will focus on the game itself at launch, as they should.

 

[gothmog]

I find it interesting that we haven't heard anything from Xbox yet on the backlash. I'm probably more interested in how they respond than arguing 30 vs 60. I don't even understand people arguing it. It's a preference and console gaming has set an expectation that the gamer gets to decide what's more important to them. This has been the norm since at least the pro consoles last generation.

Some PS games released performance vs quality features post launch. So it's okay to add on more things later but you kinda have to hit the mark on the basics at launch. At the very least a chart of the upcoming visual modes and features of each would at least help people set their expectations accordingly. If the performance mode doesn't hit 60 locked all hell is going to break loose. Lol.

 

[Elios83]

I'm sure this is the expected result, which is why they bothered to announce this in advance vs. having it hit when the review embargoes lifted. They are letting this run its course now and will focus on the game itself at launch, as they should.

You probably don't know how the review system works and how gullible reviewers are. They just echo what the sentiment is around certain things.
Also 30fps have an impact on the quality of the game at launch because the game will be judged on how it plays and how the action does not feel smooth at that frame rate.

 

[DaGwaphics]

You probably don't know how the review system works and how gullible reviewers are. They just echo what the sentiment is around certain things.
Also 30fps have an impact on the quality of the game at launch because the game will be judged on how it plays and how the action does not feel smooth at that frame rate.

It still serves them well to get this out in advance vs. getting this reaction right at launch (as silly as it all is anyway).

 

[damidu]

beyond dumb move for a fps, especially if you are going to add 60 anyway.
finish your shit and then release.

deserved backlash honestly, enjoy the whiny comments at every promo material you post

 

[Elios83]

It still serves them well to get this out in advance vs. getting this reaction right at launch (as silly as it all is anyway).

Destroying the conversation and hype (although there wasn't a lot tbh) about your game just before the launch is not the positive you seem to believe it was a necessity due to the state of the game.
Also again, the game will be judged for how not fluid the action feels at 30fps and a lot of reviewers will cling to the controversy that create the most drama and clicks for their articles. This is the review system we have in gaming.

 

[adamsapple]

Destroying the conversation and hype (although there wasn't a lot tbh) about your game just before the launch is not the positive you seem to believe it was a necessity due to the state of the game.
Also again, the game will be judged for how not fluid the action feels at 30fps and a lot of reviewers will cling to the controversy that create the most drama and clicks for their articles. This is the review system we have in gaming.

i do agree with the drama clicks. I wonder if the author of this article exclusively plays 60 FPS game, what their opinions on Tears of the Kingdom are etc.

cause that headlaine and blurb is certainly spicy and directly capitalizing on the immediately recent news, instead of the broader picture.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Destroying the conversation and hype (although there wasn't a lot tbh) about your game just before the launch is not the positive you seem to believe it was a necessity due to the state of the game.
Also again, the game will be judged for how not fluid the action feels at 30fps and a lot of reviewers will cling to the controversy that create the most drama and clicks for their articles. This is the review system we have in gaming.

Maybe you have a bit of trouble with reading. LOL

Their choices were have a bit of a shitstorm about this now or right at launch, they chose the former. If they could do the 60fps mode at launch and avoid the entire discussion they would have done that, obviously. My goodness.

If they thought they had a shot to sneak the 60fps mode in under the wire they would have kept quiet about it. The fact that they made the early statement is an indication that launching with the 60fps mode looked very unlikely to them internally.

 

[Lysandros]

The Switch is not marketed as the worlds most powerful console, nor is it an FPS.

XSX isn't marketed as the world's most powerful console either.

 

[Elios83]

Maybe you have a bit of trouble with reading. LOL

Their choices were have a bit of a shitstorm about this now or right at launch, they chose the former. If they could do the 60fps mode at launch and avoid the entire discussion they would have done that obviously. My goodness.

Probably you're not understanding my answer.
The shitstorm won't end and won't run out of its course before launch like you suggest.
It will have an impact on how the game is received at launch because reviewers will complain about how the action does not feel smooth at 30fps and, like they always do, they will cling to and echo all the controversies that generate the most drama.
Also not announcing this until launch was not an option, they would have created an other small Cyberpunk case with all the footage released at 60fps?

 

[DaGwaphics]

XSX isn't marketed as the world's most powerful console either.

Really "the most powerful console" would be a comparative thing anyway. Said console could simultaneously be the best performing while also not hitting a specific fps target in a given game. The most powerful one is 20fps the pleb machines are at 15fps in that scenario.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Probably you're not understanding my answer.
The shitstorm won't end and won't run out of its course before launch like you suggest.
It will have an impact on how the game is received at launch because reviewers will complain about how the action does not feel smooth at 30fps and, like they always do, they will cling to and echo all the controversies that generate the most drama.
Also not announcing this until launch was not an option, they would have created an other small Cyberpunk case with all the footage released at 60fps?

That discussion would have existed regardless. But the reason perceived "bad news" is typically dumped in advance is because it will lose potency quickly instead of being the new topic of discussion.

 

[Moses85]

@GR

30 FPS is totally fine

 

[simpatico]

Damn Games Radar. Ya held out longer than I did. I dumped 30fps console games 2/3s the way through the PS360 era. Haven't looked back.

 

[RickSanchez]

made this comment in another thread as well:

Arkane's days of making awesome single-player immersive sims feel like a lifetime ago.

Prey 2017 and the two Dishonored games are among the best video games of all time for me.........but after that.....what the fuck even happened to Arkane man ??

And don't tell me about Deathloop. Whether it is by itself a good game or not, it does not match Prey or Dishonored.

 

[Topher]

XSX isn't marketed as the world's most powerful console either.

"Xbox Series X, the most powerful next-generation console, empowers developers to deliver on their creative visions and dreams."

"Developing two consoles in parallel from the beginning enables us to deliver the most powerful console ever in Xbox Series X and make next-gen gaming available and affordable to more players on day one with Xbox Series S."

Power Your Dreams: Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S Now Available Worldwide - Xbox Wire

Experience the thrill of gaming at 120 frames per second, with faster loading times, richer, more dynamic worlds and much more on Xbox Series X, our fastest most powerful console ever, and Xbox Series S, delivering next-generation performance at an affordable price in the smallest Xbox ever...

news.xbox.com

 

[vaibhavpisal]

made this comment in another thread as well:

Arkane's days of making awesome single-player immersive sims feel like a lifetime ago.

Prey 2017 and the two Dishonored games are among the best video games of all time for me.........but after that.....what the fuck even happened to Arkane man ??

And don't tell me about Deathloop. Whether it is by itself a good game or not, it does not match Prey or Dishonored.

Deathloop underwent a lot of iterations to make it more understandable to players.

You can see that, first 4 hrs is just tutorials. Then next few hours you are piecing together a way to kill some visionaries.

It really gets going at 10 hrs mark or so properly. Then they ruin it at the end by spelling out solution for you.

Overall there is a good game in there. Just wish Arkane could trust players more to find solution by themselves.

 

[Fredrik]

i do agree with the drama clicks. I wonder if the author of this article exclusively plays 60 FPS game, what their opinions on Tears of the Kingdom are etc.

This is missing the point. Zelda isn’t ruined by 30fps, neither was TLOUP2 or Ghost of Tsushima or RDR2 or God of War or any other big 30fps release in the third person genre.

The problem here is the first person view, while you aim a reticle in the third person games mentioned you don’t play the whole game that way.

Everytime you rotate the camera or strafe you’ll see stutter, can’t move a screen sideways at 30fps without seeing it, and there is no weighty turn animation and rubberbanded Lakitu camera system to hide it, and if they motion blur it then the hyped up 4K resolution is wasted.

And in Zelda you’ll likely have gyro aiming too which helps a lot for aiming in 30fps.

I wish people would actually go back and try how it is instead of parroting that Zelda don’t get a backlash for running at 30fps. It’s not the same thing.

 

[JackMcGunns]

Talk about sucking hard on negative energy GamesRadar, your only focus is the framerate? how stable is it? what about the other elements of the game? you're like a vampire feeding on... oh wait a minute, I get it, we're going to slay blood sucking GamesRadar when we play RedFall and they don't like it

 

[adamsapple]

This is missing the point. Zelda isn’t ruined by 30fps, neither was TLOUP2 or Ghost of Tsushima or RDR2 or God of War or any other big 30fps release in the third person genre. The stutter when rotating a camera might’ve been annoying but hardly game breaking, it mostly look worse in motion.

The problem here is the first person view, while you aim a reticle in the third person games mentioned you don’t play the whole game that way.

Everytime you rotate the camera or strafe you’ll see stutter, can’t move a screen sideways at 30fps without seeing it, and there is no weighty turn animation and rubberbanded Lakitu camera system to hide it, and if they motion blur it then the hyped up 4K resolution is wasted.

And in Zelda you’ll likely have gyro aiming too which helps a lot for aiming in 30fps.

I wish people would actually go back and try how it is instead of parroting that Zelda don’t get a backlash for running at 30fps. It’s not the same thing.

We've gone through multiple generations of 30 FPS first person shooters, games which were some of the best received and reviewed games like the Bioshock franchise, the Deus Ex revival and its sequel.

This is not a new phenomenon. Nor is it a permanent one as we already know there's going to be a 60 FPS performance patch post-release.

Commentary like "oh my god this is completely ruined now" is hyperbolic at best. Is it optimal ? no, is it unplayable ? also no.

I'm, personally, going to wait till launch if the patch is ready then otherwise I'm ready to wait a few more days for it. But if it reviews well, I'll probably give it a shot at launch anyway.

 

[Fredrik]

We've gone through multiple generations of 30 FPS games, games which were some of the best received and reviewed games like the Bioshock franchise, the Deus Ex revival and its sequel.

This is not a new phenomenon. Nor is it a permanent one as we already know there's going to be a 60 FPS performance patch post-release.

Commentary like "oh my god this is completely ruined now" is hyperbolic at best.

It’ll play worse and look worse in motion at launch than all (?) first person games released now. What other first person games are 30fps?

And there is no announced date for the 60fps patch. The vague info there is like listening to Square Enix talk about the PC version of FFXVI.

If you have a PC you’re unaffected but this is a very hyped up next gen Xbox release. We’ll see if they dare to send out Xbox code for review.

The backlash is 100% warranted as far as I’m concerned.

 

[gothmog]

It’ll play worse and look worse in motion at launch than all (?) first person games released now. What other first person games are 30fps?

And there is no announced date for the 60fps patch. The vague info there is like listening to Square Enix talk about the PC version of FFXVI.

If you have a PC you’re unaffected but this is a very hyped up next gen Xbox release. We’ll see if they dare to send out Xbox code for review.

The backlash is 100% warranted as far as I’m concerned.

Agreed. And the vague info reminds me a bit of Halo where they just handwaved a bunch of features away with a "let's focus on what we're giving you instead of what you expected" kind of attitude.

I'd say this is just another example of bad management but at this point I'm not sure anyone is listening over there.

 

[BrutalTruth_]

Y'all are the biggest bunch of little crybabies on the planet. Just try the damn game and see if the 30fps difference actually hurts the game in anyway or if you're just a bunch of prima donna's and won't be able to tell diff.

Honestly the funniest thing about this mess is that half of the gaming world has been hating on this game for months, this is just more fuel to the fire.

Most of the people bitching have 0 intentions of even trying this game.

 

[TehGoomba7s]

The only reason we are getting 60 FPS is because games are supporting Xbox one and PS4; so I have some bad news for the dude that wrote the title of the thread. From here on out prepare to be disappointed. People have been asking for dedicated PS5 and Series X games, well here they come with 4K Ray tracing and beautiful 30FPS.

Except Redfall doesn’t look impressive at all. Neither did Gotham Knights. Ratchet and Clank is a PS5 only game and one of the best looking games on current gen consoles. Has a slew of options to choose from. Not having laptop CPUs allows devs to do this, and 95% of devs will continue to utilise it. Options aren’t going away, as much as people as wishing they are.

 

[adamsapple]

It’ll play worse and look worse in motion at launch than all (?) first person games released now. What other first person games are 30fps?

And there is no announced date for the 60fps patch. The vague info there is like listening to Square Enix talk about the PC version of FFXVI.

If you have a PC you’re unaffected but this is a very hyped up next gen Xbox release. We’ll see if they dare to send out Xbox code for review.

The backlash is 100% warranted as far as I’m concerned.

I agree that the promise of a patch is kind of meaningless without an actual release date or window, if they come out and say the patch will be ready in the launch window that'll be great.

Also, Ghostwire, despite having even 120hz support, kinda feels the best playing at a locked 30 cause it has so many stutters and drops in every other mode.

Not the best example, but it is a very recent one.

 

[DarkMage619]

Destiny 2 would be the closest, although not exactly open world, but it has 12 player free roam and 6 players raids, at 4k60.

That game came out on PS4 and X1 and as you acknowledged it isn't really open world either. Gotham Knights is the only game that really comes close. It's only 2 player co-op and it isn't 60fps on consoles either. I could really understand the demand for 60fps on this particular game if there were clear examples of other games doing the same thing at 60fps. I also happen to think that the game being fun should be the primary concern. If the game is horrible would 60fps really fix that?

 

[Fredrik]

I agree that the promise of a patch is kind of meaningless without an actual release date or window, if they come out and say the patch will be ready in the launch window that'll be great.

Also, Ghostwire, despite having even 120hz support, kinda feels the best playing at a locked 30 cause it has so many stutters and drops in every other mode.

Not the best example, but it is a very recent one.

I’m just thinking they should wait to have it ready. Doesn’t matter if it comes in a couple weeks, everyone who play it on console day 1 will have a subpar experience, then when the 60fps patch is out they might’ve already gone through it. Hurt their ”Day 1 on Gamepass” PR as well if we’re considering waiting to play it because it’s bad day 1.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Some people

 

[Justin9mm]

I understand having a preference for >30fps, but not playing a game because it's 30 FPS is outrageous as far as I'm concerned. When did we stop playing games because they were good games, and only play them as long as the framerate/resolution was above some arbitrary threshold

It's outrageous because the current gen consoles are more than capable and this comes down to shit development with shitty optimisation. Get a clue.

 

[adamsapple]

It's outrageous because the current gen consoles are more than capable and this comes down to shit development with shitty optimisation. Get a clue.

It probably wouldn't be an issue if this was announced with the game or even last E3. The fact that they waited 3 weeks before the release date to announce this is the kicker.

Coming in this late shows it's probably a last minute issue.

 

[Fredrik]

The fact that they waited 3 weeks before the release date to announce this is the kicker.

Coming in this late shows it's probably a last minute issue.

Yup.
Hopefully they aren’t doing the same thing with Starfield. If it’s 30fps too then the info needs to be out there, could just wait til after the big show if they don’t want it to be all people talk about, just put it out there so people have the time to accept it or to take the step and buy or build a PC ready for launch.

 

[damidu]

It probably wouldn't be an issue if this was announced with the game or even last E3. The fact that they waited 3 weeks before the release date to announce this is the kicker.

Coming in this late shows it's probably a last minute issue.

nah people would still have an issue with it.
because the game barely has anything to show for the lost 30fps. it looks mediocre at best.

 

[rofif]

This is made out to be too big of a deal. We all played 30fps whole ps4 gen...
And nobody cares about this game anyway

 

[rkofan87]

i am go in when the patch is a go you all think that because some of us want to not play before the patch that we are babies come on now.

 

[Ozriel]

And yet there are already articles and videos all over the net shitting on the 30fps thing and drawing away attention from everything else ruining the conversation and any kind of pre-release hype the game could have.

Eh. Majority of them are from folks like you who weren’t planning to play this, anyway.

Reviews are what will drive interest or disinterest in the game. How many editorials have you seen out there whining about 30fps in Zelda TOTK?

 

[SmokedMeat]

First person shooter
vs
Third person adventure

These genres don’t get ruined the same way with lower fps. In third person adventures you have character animations and weighty stop and turn movement masking the control issues coming from 30fps. RDR2 is the extreme example where 30fps definitely didn’t ruin the game.
But they’ll still stutter as much if you rotate the camera though and aiming usually sucks which is why I never go with 30fps unless I have to.

I wholeheartedly disagree. More frames of animation and snappier feedback to movement absolutely makes a world of difference in any game. Adventure games where you’re dealing with combat and platforming benefits immensely.

Red Dead 2 especially, is my biggest example of how a game can go from feeling like shit, to feeling good. I hated it on PS4, but on PC it’s my GoAT.

I can’t even play the Assassin’s Creed games on Switch (regretted that purchase), because of how awful the games feel. Response is like wading in mud.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I think I’ll just start this on PC where I can play at 60fps and then just transfer to Xbox once the inevitable update hits. Surely it’s cross save between the two, yes?

 

[Killer8]

Sorry Redfall, i'm not going back to Arkane games.

 

[wipeout364]

Except Redfall doesn’t look impressive at all. Neither did Gotham Knights. Ratchet and Clank is a PS5 only game and one of the best looking games on current gen consoles. Has a slew of options to choose from. Not having laptop CPUs allows devs to do this, and 95% of devs will continue to utilise it. Options aren’t going away, as much as people as wishing they are.

My point is that developers will push the systems hard once they are no longer constrained by the “laptop” CPU’s of last gen, 60 FPS is only a major selling point to the core. Shiny new graphics, large open worlds, 4K and various other buzzwords are what companies push, this will result in priorities being moved to those areas. Sure some games will work hard to maintain 60 FPS (competitive shooters for example) but I see us ending up where we were at the end of last generation with 30 FPS and 4K (instead of 1080p) being the standard.

 

[FrankWza]

Can’t call something ‘false advertisement’ if it doesn’t lead to a sale

Sure you can.

 

[bluecowboys]

My point is that developers will push the systems hard once they are no longer constrained by the “laptop” CPU’s of last gen, 60 FPS is only a major selling point to the core. Shiny new graphics, large open worlds, 4K and various other buzzwords are what companies push, this will result in priorities being moved to those areas. Sure some games will work hard to maintain 60 FPS (competitive shooters for example) but I see us ending up where we were at the end of last generation with 30 FPS and 4K (instead of 1080p) being the standard.

Very true. Luckily, I don’t think 8k will be a thing since there isn’t a big difference between 4K and 8k. Pushing 4K graphics is way to taxing even on modern hardware.

 

[FrankWza]

XSX isn't marketed as the world's most powerful console either.

It was around launch before the head to heads started coming out and then they changed it to most powerful xbox