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[adamsapple]

I am not sure you realize this but game engines don’t code and optimize themselves. Yet.

If it were a case of developers purposefully skipping optimizing for Xbox because of sales, there wouldn't be as many games which "win" on Xbox in Gaf's favorite-pastime, aka Digital Foundry.

Engine and tools like UE are ubiquitous and both consoles run on almost an interchangeable architecture and specs anyway.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Obviously MS has been doing that for a very long time. There’s always going to be a gap between a PC running a regular OS and a console.


I am not sure you realize this but game engines don’t code and optimize themselves. Yet.

Absolutely, I wouldn't deny that. It's also true that as modern engines take advantage of specific direct x techniques that are accelerated on the Series GPU, those devices will benefit. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Remember that MS interfaces with Nvidia and AMD when laying out the roadmap of future graphics tech. All three companies are swimming more or less in the same direction downstream. The Series consoles apu was not developed on a vacuum.

This didn't play out to well in the Xbox one generation due to its inemic gpu, but in the OG xbox and 360 generation, this strategy proved to be effective.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Whats funny about this picture to me was I was in voice chat with a few people watching the road to PS5 show that included Mike Ybarra and Jason Ronald who were both with Xbox at the time and they both were getting a decent laugh at how much time, effort and money Sony spent on the SSD and didn't go for pure brute force power

This picture just seems to show Cerny KNOWING he is superior almost like he knew what he was doing all along

 

[Panajev2001a]

Whats funny about this picture to me was I was in voice chat with a few people watching the road to PS5 show that included Mike Ybarra and Jason Ronald who were both with Xbox at the time and they both were getting a decent laugh at how much time, effort and money Sony spent on the SSD and didn't go for pure brute force power

This picture just seems to show Cerny KNOWING he is superior almost like he knew what he was doing all along

This picture was from the PS4 reveal though, but still “Pretty cool right?”.

I keep watching the Road to PS5 video sometimes for how well he presented, well paced, purposeful, and engaging. Giving tech presentations like this is tough/requires lots of practice.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

This picture was from the PS4 reveal though, but still “Pretty cool right?”.

I keep watching the Road to PS5 video sometimes for how well he presented, well paced, purposeful, and engaging. Giving tech presentations like this is tough/requires lots of practice.

I figured that pic wasn't from the Road to PS5 show as they had that whole fake audience thing in front of him

But yeah still that I am coming to take your sole look

 

[Jboemios]

Unofficial xbox mascot

 

[adamsapple]

Unofficial xbox mascot

 

[Jboemios]

Also, if what developers says is true, then the gap between Xbox Series and Playstation will be bigger than is right now. This reminds me the unreal demo that only was possible to run in PS5, because of the SSD, lol.

 

[Mr Moose]

Also, if what developers says is true, then the gap between Xbox Series and Playstation will be bigger than is right now. It feels good to be a green rat

Did you even read what was said?

“Due to faster clockspeed, PS5 gives us direct, simpler performance advantages from previous generation,” Jacquier said in a recent interview with GamingBolt. “Although the Xbox Series X’s GPU raw performance is better, it’s harder to exploit- it requires a better parallelism to exploits the 52 CUs. But I suppose devs could, in the long term, obtain better performance on the Xbox Series X.”

It doesn't mean it will get bigger, it is just a bit harder to fill those CUs than it is with the less CU/faster clock. It means nothing at the end of the day because everyone knew this already.

 

[MarkMe2525]

I'm sure this comparison has been made before, but Cerny straight up looks like the Grinch who stole MS's Christmas.

Edit: Impressive name drop HeisenbergFX4

 

[Jboemios]

Did you even read what was said?


It doesn't mean it will get bigger, it is just a bit harder to fill those CUs than it is with the less CU/faster clock. It means nothing at the end of the day because everyone knew this already.

Do you even read? The key part is that according to that developer, the XS power is not fully used, and even with that is still winning against PS in most third party games. It is logical that the gap will increase when all the cappabilities of XS are used.

But dont surprise me that Soniers are still in denial after all those fanfic stories about SSD and RDNA 3.

 

[Mr Moose]

Do you even read? The key part is that according to that developer, the XS power is not fully used, and even with that is still winning against PS in most third party games. It is logical that the gap will increase when all the cappabilities of XS are used.

But dont surprise me that Soniers are still in denial after all those fanfic stories about SSD and RDNA 3.

That's not what it says at all, but OK.

Although the Xbox Series X’s GPU raw performance is better, it’s harder to exploit-

Does not mean it isn't, hasn't been and won't be.

 

[Lysandros]

At the end of the day this untimely comment with poor choice of words could only feed the "tools" narrative, helping to keep the sacred hidden power of the legendary 52 CUs mirage alive and that's what is happening on this very thread. Thanks for reminding us how in fact and truly more powerful XSX is GamingBolt, don't worry we are not at all fooled by the results we are seeing since two years in this reality.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

*Looks at post history*

Literally only console warring.

They're telling the truth, though. Teraflops only matter but so much when it comes to a game's performance. Geometry culling, triangle rasterization, pixel fillrate, texture fillrate, the speed of the GPU caches, cache optimization subsystems etc. all play just as much if not more important roles in gaming performance than peak FP32 throughput. Out of the things I just listed, the Series X's only advantage over PS5 is the texture fillrate (379.2 Gtexels/sec vs 321 Gtexels/sec).

Series X does have other advantages like the (nominally) faster CPU and the larger RAM bandwidth, but the CPU speed doesn't make a lot of difference (maybe 2 or 3 more FPS average at best in CPU-limited scenarios) and its RAM advantage is nullified some by having it on a smaller capacity of RAM (10 GB) than PS5 would be able to leverage its full bandwidth on capacity-wise for the GPU (up to 12 GB, if the OS takes up 2 GB and CPU & audio would need 2 GB as well). The cache coherency engines and cache scrubbers in PS5 also help nullify some of the Series X's bandwidth advantage (and if Series X does have cache coherency it's handled through the CPU and not a dedicated ASIC).

If teraflops were all that mattered, why aren't games performing 3x better in framerates and resolution going from the 6900 XT to the 7950 XTX? Or from a 3080 to a 4090? The TF jump in the new AMD & Nvidia cards sure are magnitudes higher, but performance in games aren't reflecting that. Even if/when Mesh Shading (another area Series X would theoretically have an advantage in; not because the PS5 can't do mesh shading, but because Series X has more raw CUs) becomes more readily utilized, that isn't going to result in the explosion of a performance delta some people are holding out hope for with Series X. Because various parts of game performance will still rely on fixed function hardware alongside mesh shading or primitive shading.

But when developers like this make these statements, they could also be referring to the ease of use of the APIs.

 

[LordOfChaos]

FYI, RBEs (Render Back End that contains color ROPS and z-ROPS) are not the only hardware for read/write I/O.

The programmer has the option to use the compute shader/TMU for the read/write IO path.

After applying delta color compression (DCC), be aware that any pixel fillrate argument will be bound by external memory bandwidth.


Read http://www.humus.name/Articles/Persson_LowlevelShaderOptimization.pdf

Doom Eternal has extensive Async Compute usage.

Basic AMD Vega/RDNA GPU 101 design

Your pixel fill rate argument is processed via the pixel engine I/O path.

AMD's Async Compute argument is processed via compute engine I/O path which includes TMU (texture management units) and this is a known workaround for ROPS bottlenecks.

This likely goes hand in hand with the PS5's GPU being more easily used to its peak, while the XSX needs some workarounds to show more of its power. This workaround would work just the same on the PS5 as well, worth remembering, unless the move to being bandwidth bound ends up mattering.

There's been a lot of people referencing the PS5's system design being amazing on developers and I feel like we didn't really know what they meant, even the now Xbox exclusive Todd Howard said the PS5 was a beastly system design on the Lex interview, I think they made a really great unbottlenecked system design, it sounds like a meme but it's really not. We're also seeing games that lean into the SSD offload tech like Returnal need 32GB of RAM to do the same thing on PC, because while on paper PC SSDs can already be faster, again in practice becomes very different and it's all that offload it did which would be the equivalent of 16 Zen 2 cores or something along those lines.

This is not to say any fanboy nonsense like Microsoft didn't think about their system design, it does have higher shader performance, but there's some workarounds needed to really show it off fully.

 

[Kiraly]

What else is new

 

[I Master l]

Yep

 

[solidus12]

Edit: sorry for the double post

 

[solidus12]

Whats funny about this picture to me was I was in voice chat with a few people watching the road to PS5 show that included Mike Ybarra and Jason Ronald who were both with Xbox at the time and they both were getting a decent laugh at how much time, effort and money Sony spent on the SSD and didn't go for pure brute force power

This picture just seems to show Cerny KNOWING he is superior almost like he knew what he was doing all along

Was Penello with you?

 

[ChiefDada]

Yep

Definitely no cherry-picking going on here amirite?

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Do you even read? The key part is that according to that developer, the XS power is not fully used, and even with that is still winning against PS in most third party games. It is logical that the gap will increase when all the cappabilities of XS are used.

But dont surprise me that Soniers are still in denial after all those fanfic stories about SSD and RDNA 3.

What he said is not incongruous with what your takeaway is so how are you twisting that into a pro Sony comment? Your comment makes you look like a fan boy more than anything because you've got that tell-tale overly defensive mindset where you think any comment not for your box is a comment against it.

 

[ChiefDada]

Whats funny about this picture to me was I was in voice chat with a few people watching the road to PS5 show that included Mike Ybarra and Jason Ronald who were both with Xbox at the time and they both were getting a decent laugh at how much time, effort and money Sony spent on the SSD and didn't go for pure brute force power

Wait, what?

Also, I thought Mike Ybarra was one of the one's excited for PS5 i/o tech at launch?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yep

Strange how that isn't the case with all games. Something is definitely failing here.

 

[March Climber]

This picture just seems to show Cerny KNOWING he is superior almost like he knew what he was doing all along

Live footage of Cerny vs Phil:

 

[twilo99]

“Raw” performance doesn’t matter, I think the Xbox has more “features” to exploit, more future proof if you will.

 

[3liteDragon]

Whats funny about this picture to me was I was in voice chat with a few people watching the road to PS5 show that included Mike Ybarra and Jason Ronald who were both with Xbox at the time and they both were getting a decent laugh at how much time, effort and money Sony spent on the SSD and didn't go for pure brute force power

This picture just seems to show Cerny KNOWING he is superior almost like he knew what he was doing all along

Lmao, who else were in the voice chat & what else were they saying?

There's been a lot of people referencing the PS5's system design being amazing on developers and I feel like we didn't really know what they meant, even the now Xbox exclusive Todd Howard said the PS5 was a beastly system design on the Lex interview, I think they made a really great unbottlenecked system design, it sounds like a meme but it's really not. We're also seeing games that lean into the SSD offload tech like Returnal need 32GB of RAM to do the same thing on PC, because while on paper PC SSDs can already be faster, again in practice becomes very different and it's all that offload it did which would be the equivalent of 16 Zen 2 cores or something along those lines.

A few people here caught on to that 2 years ago & were saying the exact same thing. Epic’s Sweeney also called it a “masterpiece” in systems design which got mocked here & now you got Todd saying the same thing lol, can’t wait to see the kind of games we get this gen from this beast.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Lmao, who else were in the voice chat & what else were they saying?

From what I remember was about 10 of us or so that was the regular group who gamed together and just mainly remember Mike kept saying "they fucked up" in regards to Sony trying to get "cute" with the SSD and should have gone with more power.

I do remember them saying we will never see any real world in game differences as what that SSD tech would do as compared to the Xbox option

Maybe people don't find my little stories interesting and maybe I should stop since I am name dropping and all

 

[FireFly]

That's some very basic take coming from a developer actually but NDAs and such i understand to some degree. I also find "Xbox Series X’s GPU raw performance is better" comment to be somewhat misleading. I think what he really means is "XSX has a higher theoretical 'compute' ceiling/power", 'performance' alludes to final real world thoughtput which is contradictory to the context and also compute is only one facet of it. More so than parallelism XSX's main problem is that its higher CU count design is coupled with a slower GPU back and front end compared PS5, which naturally reduces its real/whole GPU power. Thus i am not adhering to XSX is "more powerful but harder to exploit" narrative as being the main reason behind the real world results. PS5/XSX situation is very far from being analogous to PS3/X360 one.

The PS5 has a higher fillrate and triangle rate and the XSX has a higher texture rate and more bandwidth and compute. So which ends up faster depends on the bottleneck in a given frame.

 

[damidu]

Yep

lol is this supposed to be average of every game ever released or something? at least put some context to your console warring bullshit

 

[Panajev2001a]

From what I remember was about 10 of us or so that was the regular group who gamed together and just mainly remember Mike kept saying "they fucked up" in regards to Sony trying to get "cute" with the SSD and should have gone with more power.

I do remember them saying we will never see any real world in game differences as what that SSD tech would do as compared to the Xbox option

Maybe people don't find my little stories interesting and maybe I should stop since I am name dropping and all

Please continue .

 

[Topher]

Yep

Post the source. This is "launch day" averages of frame rate? What good is this?

 

[SplunkyMunkey]

Despite PlayStation has a slight lower Rez compared to Xbox but ps5 has the slight performance advantage alot of the times not just on performance mode but also quality mode in some cases. Despite ps5 running at 3.5ghz and Xbox at 3.6/3.8ghz due to the powershift on ps5 makes me think the CPU doesn't throttle much compared to Xbox

 

[FrankieSab]

Will be easier to optimize with newer game engines like Unreal Engine 5. Look at Fortnite.

 

[Topher]

Despite PlayStation has a slight lower Rez compared to Xbox but ps5 has the slight performance advantage alot of the times not just on performance mode but also quality mode in some cases. Despite ps5 running at 3.5ghz and Xbox at 3.6/3.8ghz due to the powershift on ps5 makes me think the CPU doesn't throttle much compared to Xbox

I think in most cases, no one is going to be able to tell the difference between a game running side by side on an XSX and a PS5 and that includes load times. The ones that will stand out are going to be the ones that are typically lacking in optimization on one or the other.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I think in most cases, no one is going to be able to tell the difference between a game running side by side on an XSX and a PS5 and that includes load times. The ones that will stand out are going to be the ones that are typically lacking in optimization on one or the other.

I am going to add this after seeing it run on one of my TVs that I regularly game on a 65" Sony X900H

Most CASUAL gamers walking into a room with a game running on a Series S would have a hard time telling a difference

 

[MasterCornholio]

Please continue .

Same

 

[adamsapple]

Post the source. This is "launch day" averages of frame rate? What good is this?

That is from A Plague Tale Requiem's DF comparison.

Will be easier to optimize with newer game engines like Unreal Engine 5. Look at Fortnite.

Yes, the results will vary depending on engine as well. EG, the Modern Warfare 2019 engine seems to favor the PS5 architecture more, hence even the newer games have a slight performance advantage there.

UE5's latest outing, Fortnite's UE5 update runs the same in terms of performance (thanks to DRS) but SX averages ~15% higher resolution thanks to the GPU.

I am going to add this after seeing it run on one of my TVs that I regularly game on a 65" Sony X900H

Most CASUAL gamers walking into a room with a game running on a Series S would have a hard time telling a difference

Bruh Witcher 3 has a better, more stable, 30 FPS mode on Series S compared to PS5 and SX. Y'all think more people will notice the darker shading in the corner or the less chugging when horse riding in Novigrad

 

[Topher]

I am going to add this after seeing it run on one of my TVs that I regularly game on a 65" Sony X900H

Most CASUAL gamers walking into a room with a game running on a Series S would have a hard time telling a difference

Wouldn't surprise me a bit. I've said many times that when I had my XSS my only issue with it was storage space. If it had 1 TB then I'd still have it today.

That is from A Plague Tale Requiem's DF comparison.

So ChiefDada was right. Cherry picking.

 

[adamsapple]

So ChiefDada was right. Cherry picking.

Every example is cherry picking in context. This developer is currently finding the PS5s simpler architecture easier as they're not doing parallelism.

Other developers and engines might already be proficient in parallelism.

 

[Topher]

Every example is cherry picking in context. This developer is currently finding the PS5s simpler architecture easier as they're not doing parallelism.

Other developers and engines might already be proficient in parallelism.

Why are you saying this developer is "not doing parallelism"?

 

[adamsapple]

Why are you saying this developer is "not doing parallelism"?

*

Not doing 'better' parallelism to exploit the GPU grunt.

it’s harder to exploit- it requires a better parallelism to exploits the 52 CUs. But I suppose devs could, in the long term, obtain better performance on the Xbox Series X.”

 

[Topher]

*

Not doing 'better' parallelism to exploit the GPU grunt.

"Requires better parallelism" is not the same as "not doing parallelism".

 

[adamsapple]

"Requires better parallelism" is not the same as "not doing parallelism".

Hence the asterisk and correction in my next post

 

[digoutyoursoul]

“Raw” performance doesn’t matter, I think the Xbox has more “features” to exploit, more future proof if you will.

It means nothing if it isn’t taken advantage of.

To a lesser extent look at the Microsoft marketing lately, it’s all about the Series S these days. All that talk of the most powerful console , it’s never mentioned now

To a less informed consumer they would be forgiven for thinking the Series X didn’t exist.

One thing is certain I will definitely be holding off any future Xbox console purchase until at least the second year of its release after my experiences with this console.

 

[Skifi28]

Post the source. This is "launch day" averages of frame rate? What good is this?

This is a picture from plague tale requiem from DF, about a very specific stress point with large framerate drops. The next second of the video showed huge improvements after the patch, but it wasn't that good for console warring I'm afraid. I discovered it randomly looking through the video thinking of buying the game when I remembered this thread, fun times!

 

[Topher]

This is a picture from plague tale requiem from DF, about a very specific stress point with large framerate drops. The next second of the video showed huge improvements after the patch, but it wasn't that good for console warring I'm afraid. I was randomly looking through the video thinking of buying the game when I remembered this thread, fun times.

So not just a cherry picked game, but a cherry picked portion of the analysis? Console warriors are having to work really hard this generation for material it seems.

 

[Skifi28]

So not just a cherry picked game, but a cherry picked portion of the analysis? Console warriors are having to work really hard this generation for material it seems.

Yeah, the majority of games look and perform so similar you have to really, really try and find something. And even then you must be very careful with context because the situation might reverse itself on the next frame of the video, console warring used to be so easy back in the day.

 

[Gaiff]

So not just a cherry picked game, but a cherry picked portion of the analysis? Console warriors are having to work really hard this generation for material it seems.

Yeah, the majority of games look and perform so similar you have to really, really try and find something. And even then you must be very careful with context because the situation might reverse itself on the next frame of the video, console warring used to be so easy back in the day.

The console warring on Gaf is some of the most pathetic I've seen. I saw guys going back and forth for pages, arguing over a 4% difference in pixel count, and timestamping DF vids for drops of 1-2fps for 1 second. I honestly couldn't believe my eyes.

 

[Corndog]

And that's my concern. That would be awful. Alternative such as GPGPU optimization would be much more interesting than improved resolutions that you typically see in PC environment.



Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'm assuming you're 3rd party?

Why would it be awful? Are you planning on buying the series s?

 

[MasterCornholio]

The console warring on Gaf is some of the most pathetic I've seen. I saw guys going back and forth for pages, arguing over a 4% difference in pixel count, and timestamping DF vids for drops of 1-2fps for 1 second. I honestly couldn't believe my eyes.

Like the days of Pro Vs X where the differences were much larger. Sad to see some people praying that they return and then get mad when the comparisons are close. If anything this is good for the industry.