Support NeoGAF

[Cyberpunkd]

but they do in their store right?

Yes, but now the question is how many copies are sold digital vs. retail?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Yes, but now the question is how many copies are sold digital vs. retail?

we know digital has overtaken physical right?

 

[Bragr]

I’m not sure where this is coming from. GowR has sold faster than any first party of theirs.

You can have a GoWR fail if a bunch of other titles succeed, but the failures should be exceedingly rare.

Technology will improve development. I don’t think budgets from here on out will get much worse. We’ve topped out on expected hours for games, and the visual Fidelity is limited more by hardware than artistry constraints

How can you say they topped out on expenses when it's been growing on a yearly basis? We are talking huge increases in a few years, there is nothing to indicate it will stop.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

https://magazine.artstation.com/2023/02/santa-monica-studio-god-of-war-ragnarok-art-blast/

https://magazine.artstation.com/2023/02/santa-monica-studio-god-of-war-ragnarok-art-blast-part-two/

At the very least, in terms of artistic value, it’s damned good money spent.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

How can you say they topped out on expenses when it's been growing on a yearly basis? We are talking huge increases in a few years, there is nothing to indicate it will stop.

It will always grow on a nominal basis due to inflation. They can improve costs on a real basis going forward or at the very least not grow on a real basis.

 

[mrmustard]

Most of that money doesn't even go into the actual development of AAA games.

It's mainly used for aggressive marketing campaigns and in hiring expensive actors.

A lot of assets are mainly outsourced these days.

Are you sure marketing is already included in that number? Marketing for this game was easily >100 million.

 

[Bragr]

Show me where they (as in Sony) said that.

They have not said they wanted more anywhere

They released zero first party games in the quarter

I have not said Sony said anything, I don't know why are you pushing this.

This is not about the quarter, this is about in general.

I said they wanted more, based on a topic we see coming up from analysts, people who work on this for a living.

"...there are also concerns that the PS5’s earlier hardware supply issues are having a knock on effect on software sales and subscriptions, which are important if the company wants to build a “virtuous cycle” of mutually reinforcing console and game sales."

Sony reports strong PS5 hardware sales as it closes in on 40 million units sold

Good news for hardware, less so for games.

www.theverge.com

 

[Yoboman]

Marketing is generally inclusive, here’s another.

That's the Live From PS5 campaign. Totally different budget used to push messaging about the PS5 stock improving this year

 

[The Cockatrice]

Most of that money doesn't even go into the actual development of AAA games.

It's mainly used for aggressive marketing campaigns and in hiring expensive actors.

A lot of assets are mainly outsourced these days.

I can confirm, as a corporate slave. Everything is being outsourced these days. It's why most games turn out buggy and riddled with performance issues, I doubt there are any companies left with internal Q&A for example. EA has outsourced this almost completely. The things I could say about their upcoming games. Not in very good quality, especially one specific major game from a company they own. Oh well. Maybe with all the trash we received lately, things might change a bit.

 

[Bragr]

It will always grow on a nominal basis due to inflation. They can improve costs on a real basis going forward or at the very least not grow on a real basis.

Maybe, but not likely. The budgets for games are going drastically up.

"According to the report, AAA games that are greenlit now with potential releases in 2024 or 2025 typically receive development budgets of $200 million or higher..."

"These costs demonstrate a significant increase from five years ago, when most AAA games had budgets between $50 and $150 million."

Major Publishers Report AAA Franchises Can Cost Over a Billion to Make

Games Like Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto already require over $250 million in development costs alone.

nordic.ign.com

 

[ByWatterson]

If budgets are going up, that almost certainly means potential revenues are rising, too.

Publishers aren't stupid nor do they have infinite cash. They're making bets, the bets pay off, so they up their wager.

 

[GHG]

I have not said Sony said anything, I don't know why are you pushing this.

This is not about the quarter, this is about in general.

I said they wanted more, based on a topic we see coming up from analysts, people who work on this for a living.

"...there are also concerns that the PS5’s earlier hardware supply issues are having a knock on effect on software sales and subscriptions, which are important if the company wants to build a “virtuous cycle” of mutually reinforcing console and game sales."

http://[URL]https://www.theverge.co...sony-ps5-q4-2022-console-sales-game-shipments

[/URL]

Be serious now. This is what you said which started this sub-thread discussion:

Even now, there are talks about how Playstation ain't selling the amount of software they wanted.

Now you're doubling down by quoting journalists from the verge.

I'll make this very simple for you, find a transcript of their latest earnings call, read it. Find their quarterly earnings summary, read it. That's if you want facts though. Warning: it might shatter whatever narrative you seem to have built up.

 

[Bragr]

Be serious now. This is what you said which started this sub-thread discussion:



Now you're doubling down by quoting journalists from the verge.

I'll make this very simple for you, find a transcript of their latest earnings call, read it. Find their quarterly earnings summary, read it. That's if you want facts though. Warning: it might shatter whatever narrative you seem to have built up.

Their earnings call are obviously not gonna have industry commentary about their software sales.

The quotes from The Verge are not from "verge journalists", but from Hideki Yasuada from Toyo Securities and Serkan Toto. Experts.

And this is all in the context of the discussion around triple-A expenses which is the real discussion before you cherry-picked a quote and created a false narrative around it.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Ragnarock was also building on the foundations and systems from the 2018 game, so its crazy to me it cost this much.

I dread to think how much something like FFXVI is costing building the engine, systems and foundations from scratch. Probably $150mil easily. Maybe higher than $200mil? I suppose Asia does have cheaper development costs which may stop it from ballooning too much, but still...!

 

[PeteBull]

Ragnarock was also building on the foundations and systems from the 2018 game, so its crazy to me it cost this much.

I dread to think how much something like FFXVI is costing building the engine, systems and foundations from scratch. Probably $150mil easily. Maybe higher than $200mil? I suppose Asia does have cheaper development costs which may stop it from ballooning too much, but still...!

U either get high quality game or u get redfall, and im sure redfall costed some pretty penny too, yet it will bomb big time.

 

[Banjo64]

Funny thing about games is that you can spend as little or as much as you want. Look at the production costs of something like Animal Crossing or even Ori, and yet the polish and fun is still present in both.

 

[DenchDeckard]

He says sony games like god of war...so to me, Horizon won't be far off that... last of us 2 will have easily eclipsed god of war....

Yeeesh

Not sustainable.

 

[GHG]

Their earnings call are obviously not gonna have industry commentary about their software sales.

The quotes from The Verge are not from "verge journalists", but from Hideki Yasuada from Toyo Securities and Serkan Toto. Experts.

And this is all in the context of the discussion around triple-A expenses which is the real discussion before you cherry-picked a quote and created a false narrative around it.

What are you talking about man? Here's the full earnings call transcript, read it for yourself:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/45...oration-sony-q4-2022-earnings-call-transcript

Edit:

Pastebin just in case because seekingalpha is not a free resource:

https://pastebin.com/ZwMrtsKE

 

[Black_Stride]

200 million dollars......thats hollywood blockbuster budgets.....god damn.


I pray for the AA future....atleast we can expect new IPs from them.
At 200+ million new IPs are far far too risky.

Asobo had two character artists for Requiem.......75 person team all in.
GOTY nominated.

 

[NikuNashi]

Horizon cost $100 million. For this game to cost double that is nonsense. GG did so much more to improve the visuals and production values which is where most of the budget is supposed to go. Horizon also took 6 months more in development in a studio twice the size of GG.

If it indeed cost $200 million to make then Sony should shut that studio down because someone in that studio is embezzling money.

Salaries in west coast US are 2-3 times that of Europe. You get far less for your money there than you do in Europe or Asia. Hence the bloated budget.

 

[Bragr]

What are you talking about man? Here's the full earnings call transcript, read it for yourself:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/45...oration-sony-q4-2022-earnings-call-transcript

I'm not gonna read through the entire call to look for whatever you think is in there. If you think the QA has answers that debunk the analysts, then share them.

 

[GHG]

200 million dollars......thats hollywood blockbuster budgets.....god damn.


I pray for the AA future....atleast we can expect new IPs from them.
At 200+ million new IPs are far far too risky.

Asobo had two character artists for Requiem.......75 person team all in.
GOTY nominated.

The reality is, with the way that budgets are what they are, AA is now equivalent to the AAA of 5-10 years ago.

 

[Danjin44]

Highly expensive game and yet they couldn’t give us the option to prevent characters spoiling puzzles for the player. this shows games being super expensive doesn’t always mean quality.

 

[Duchess]

All that money and they lost to Vampire Survivors at the BAFTAs

(note: I fucking loved GOW:R - it's a goddamn masterpiece)

 

[GHG]

I'm not gonna read through the entire call to look for whatever you think is in there. If you think the QA has answers that debunk the analysts, then share them.

Being informed is a choice, especially so when you are being provided with answers and solutions. I don't not exist to solve or fix your voluntary ignorance.

If you can take time out of your day to fill your brain with false statements and false narratives then you can also take some time out of your day to read some factual statements.

 

[mrmustard]

Crayon
Thanks for the Gold man!

 

[Bragr]

I don't not exist to solve or fix your voluntary ignorance.

When you engage in the conversation and claim the call can refute the experts, then yes, it's absolutely on you to prove that.

 

[GHG]

When you engage in the conversation and claim the call can refute the experts, then yes, it's absolutely on you to prove that.

I have provided you with proof, along with a pastebin in case you get met with the website's paywall.

The onus is now on you to do the necessary reading.

 

[Crayon]

Crayon
Thanks for the Gold man!

No, thank you for killing me. I'd pay five bucks a day to laugh that hard if I could.

 

[Bragr]

I have provided you with proof, along with a pastebin in case you get met with the website's paywall.

The onus is now on you to do the necessary reading.

What proof??? proof of what? is there proof in the QA that the analysts are wrong?? jesus man, the analyst's take is based on the conference call!!

 

[reksveks]

1) analysts expectations aren't Sony's expectations
2) shareholders place different value on different people's expectations
3) Sony doesn't give alot of forecast at the sub-segment level
4) may as wait for the business segment meeting/event in the next 1/2 weeks.

 

[Slothbeing1209]

.

 

[Black_Stride]

Oh shut up. This is probably the best game of the gen.

Last gen.

 

[RevGaming]

Last gen.

Both. Still 4 years to go.

And HFW is AMAZING too.

This site hates cinematic games for no reason.

 

[tommycronin]

What a moneysink. Hopefully they move on from doing this and make some more cheaper unique games.

 

[GHG]

What proof??? proof of what? is there proof in the QA that the analysts are wrong?? jesus man, the analyst's take is based on the conference call!!

Not true either. Based on what he said it's pretty much based on his feelings alone.

Do you even read your own "sources" at this point?

Here's a starting point for you from the earnings call transcript I already provided:

First is the Game and Network Services segment. FY'22 sales were ¥3,644.6 billion, mainly due to the impact of foreign exchange rates and increased sales of PlayStation 5 hardware. Operating income was ¥250 billion, primarily due to an increase in software development expenses, and the recording of acquisition related expenses, despite the impact of increased sales of first party software and improved profitability of hardware. For FY'23, we forecast sales to be ¥3,900 billion, operating income to be ¥270 billion, and adjusted OIBDA forecast to be ¥365 billion.

Happy reading.

 

[StereoVsn]

$200 mil have to include Marketing costs I imagine. Those run same or more as development for AAA games now days.

If it's $200mil just for dev, not sure what the heck happened there considering they had to have new tools pipeline done for the first game as well as a lot of concepts, art assets, etc...

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Still crazy to me how “cheap” games are.
Most blockbuster movies cost 200+ million to make and are under 3 hours, oftentimes horrible writing and plot, and don’t even look as impressive as games do sometimes. We’re pretty lucky - game devs work for cheap

Sounds like a case for Jason S

 

[Black_Stride]

Still crazy to me how “cheap” games are.
Most blockbuster movies cost 200+ million to make and are under 3 hours, oftentimes horrible writing and plot, and don’t even look as impressive as games do sometimes. We’re pretty lucky - game devs work for cheap

When 200 million for a video game is considered cheap, you know the AAA game industry is untenable.

We are doomed for new AAA games, I hope all these small studios starting up give us some new IPs that dont cost Hollywood blockbuster money to make with 5-10 year dev cycles.

By the time another Red Dead game gets made, Ill be dead.

 

[The artful mincer]

http://[URL]https://www.glitched.online/god-of-war-ragnarok-reportedly-cost-200-million-to-make/

[/URL]



This is about what I stated previously, but many people said there's no way it could have cost that amount.

200 million well spent considering they already generated at least $600 million in revenue already. First party as well so I think Sony are at a minimum at least getting 70% of that.

Does include marketing as well?

 

[fermcr]

I said a few weeks back that an average AAA game costs more then 100 million to make... many people didn't believe me.
Marketing cost are an extra XXX million.

For example, Sony are one of the official sponsors of the UEFA Champions League. I remember Kratos appearing on TV during several Football Champions games halftime. Do people have any idea how much money that costs?... I'm guessing A LOT.

 

[midnightAI]

I have not said Sony said anything, I don't know why are you pushing this.

This is not about the quarter, this is about in general.

I said they wanted more, based on a topic we see coming up from analysts, people who work on this for a living.

"...there are also concerns that the PS5’s earlier hardware supply issues are having a knock on effect on software sales and subscriptions, which are important if the company wants to build a “virtuous cycle” of mutually reinforcing console and game sales."

Sony reports strong PS5 hardware sales as it closes in on 40 million units sold

Good news for hardware, less so for games.

www.theverge.com

Psst, hey, hey you, come here... (Whispering) ... Quick tip... Don't use Bloomberg as a news source

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

So how much of that went into Teal'c pocket, 20 mil?

 

[Bragr]

Not true either. Based on what he said it's pretty much based on his feelings alone.

Do you even read your own "sources" at this point?

Here's a starting point for you from the earnings call transcript I already provided:



Happy reading.

It's based on his feelings alone? well yes, it's based on his feelings on the current situation, he's an analyst, that's the whole point lol.

And the comment you quoted, read the whole thing, man, they literally say they increased the software development expenses and that the biggest earner is mainly due to console hardware. This is EXACTLY why the analysts say what they say. You don't understand what you are reading lol.

 

[CGNoire]

I wonder what GTA6’s budget is

In the end probably astronomical but not in a good way. More in a "we rebooted this shit 1000 times" way.

 

[GHG]

It's based on his feelings alone? well yes, it's based on his feelings on the current situation, he's an analyst, that's the whole point lol.

And the comment you quoted, read the whole thing, man, they literally say they increased the software development expenses and that the biggest earner is mainly due to console hardware. This is EXACTLY why the analysts say what they say. You don't understand what you are reading lol.

No, you don't understand what you're reading at this point, or what you're saying clearly.

This is what you said:

Even now, there are talks about how Playstation ain't selling the amount of software they wanted.

This is what the analyst that you're referencing said:

“Sales of the hardware are increasing on par with Sony’s plan, but the momentum of software, the lucrative part of the game business, remains weak. This shows PlayStation users are not buying new games,”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-28/sony-casts-doubt-on-ps5-momentum-with-disappointing-outlook?sref=ExbtjcSG&leadSource=uverify wall


And this is the reality:

Operating income was ¥250 billion, primarily due to an increase in software development expenses, and the recording of acquisition related expenses, despite the impact of increased sales of first party software and improved profitability of hardware.

In addition, the positive impact of increased PS5 selling has begun to appear in engagement metrics, with data-based third-party software sales exceeding the same month of the previous fiscal year in February and March. Moreover, the number of monthly active users for PS as a whole increased 2.3 million accounts year-on-year in March.

And Sony's forward guidance:

And also regarding the software, it's a slight increase, but basically it will be flat. The add-ons is not going to particularly go down with -- in our assumption.

Regarding the third-party software, maybe we are a little bit careful. In the first quarter, we will look at the performance of the first quarter and then review it once again.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/45...oration-sony-q4-2022-earnings-call-transcript


Playstaion users are buying new games, first party software sales are up however their concern is with sales of third party software for the next quarter, not first party which is what this topic is about.


And by the way, these public analysts exist to prop up the positions that the hedge funds they represent have at any given time, nothing more, nothing less. They don't need to be bound to truth, they do what they do to influence physchology surrounding the sercurites their firms have positions on (or want to enter in some cases). They prey on those who are misinformed, vulnerable and impressionable in order to make money. What ever people end up doing with their stock as a direct result of what these people say is exactly what they want you to do.

 

[Bragr]

No, you don't understand what you're reading at this point, or what you're saying clearly.

This is what you said:




This is what the analyst that you're referencing said:


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-28/sony-casts-doubt-on-ps5-momentum-with-disappointing-outlook?sref=ExbtjcSG&leadSource=uverify wall


And this is the reality:





And Sony's forward guidance:



https://seekingalpha.com/article/45...oration-sony-q4-2022-earnings-call-transcript


Playstaion users are buying new games, first party software sales are up however their concern is with sales of third party software for the next quarter, not first party which is what this topic is about.


And by the way, these public analysts exist to prop up the positions that the hedge funds they represent have at any given time, nothing more, nothing less. They don't need to be bound to truth, they do what they do to influence physchology surrounding the sercurites their firms have positions on (or want to enter in some cases). They prey on those who are misinformed, vulnerable and impressionable in order to make money. What ever people end up doing with their stock as a direct result of what these people say is exactly what they want you to do.

First off, you ignore the first few words of the bolded quote from me. When I said, "there are talks about how Playstation ain't selling the amount of software they wanted". You are trying to make seem like I said that Sony said this. Which I never did, I was specifically talking about the analysts and I made that clear.

Secondly, the point you are missing here, is that Sony is just saying they saw an increase, that's it, it doesn't mean the software sales are super strong, it just means they increased.

Your hedge fund conspiracy theory is just copium.

I am not saying that Playstation struggles, all I am saying is that some analysts have talked about Playstation software sales not being what they could be. If you disagree then fine, but holy shit talk about throwing a fucking tantrum over nothing. Just say you disagree with the experts.

 

[GymWolf]

And people said that hfw costed only 100 mil? Fucking how?

 

[Edge Lord]

I just hope they reduce the bloat of their 1st party games.Need more games like sifu, re4 remake,returnal.
I feel like most of the studios have scope creep problem which they need to sort out.

 

[KungFucius]

Bloat. A lot of unnecessary stuff was done. People getting paid that shouldn't have been paid.

Maybe? Usually the bloat is cheap shit though. Collections, repeated open world things like towers, enemy strongholds, and excessive use of slow walking bullshit. The game wasn't too bad in the bloat department like Horizon was. Do you have any examples of what should have been excluded?