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God of War Ragnarok's combat could've been better if it was more like Ryse: Son of Rome

If I can beat GMGOW and you cant, of course I am a better player than you. Like what else would it be lol?
How do you know I can’t complete Ragnarok on GMGOW? I’ve never tried. I completed my first play through on GMNM. So, you think the combat system is flawless right? Your opinion is worth more than the rest of us as you’ve completed the game on GMGOW. Any criticism is simply a product of our deficiencies as gamers right? That’s really what you are going with?
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
I didn’t play Ryse but I do somewhat agree the camera it’s too fucking close to Kratos and the Berserker fight with two sisters really showed the flaw of this camera system.

Even in God Hand the camera is that close to the character.
 
How do you know I can’t complete Ragnarok on GMGOW? I’ve never tried. I completed my first play through on GMNM. So, you think the combat system is flawless right? Your opinion is worth more than the rest of us as you’ve completed the game on GMGOW. Any criticism is simply a product of our deficiencies as gamers right? That’s really what you are going with?

I know you cant beat GMGOW because all the stuff you complaining about eg: cant interrupt enemy combo, cant stagger every enemy (LOL), barely do any damage etc. And on top of that you rely on camera lock on. Like if this stuff is giving you problems in lower level aint no way you beating GMGOW.

At some point you need to stop blaming the game and adapt and learn to play better or accept you are not good as you think you are. Seriously, like you complaining about how you getting hit all the time when you evade and then you got players posting zero hit combat combo vids using level 1 armor on GMGOW.
 

Three

Member
Are you seriously gonna compare throwing an axe in the midst of a melee fight to firing a machine gun from behind cover?
Where did I compare anything? I only said GoW is a mix of on the fly ranged combat and crowd control and the camera system is built around that. I couldn't care less if you think Gears' camera is good/justified in comparison or not.

There is reticle based free aiming required in GoW. It's an integral part of the leviathan axe combat system. To be able to throw the axe at the head of an enemy or make an enemy stumble by aiming at their foot. That left stick free aiming mechanic both in melee and free aiming ranged attacks is part of what makes the combat good and have depth. It's built for it.


That's because no one asked that question but fine, whatever.
I asked in your thread right here. Maybe you're not reading the replies.

This wouldn't be that difficult anyway. Just look to Ryse for another good example because that game also had ranged attack option in the form of a throwable spear. Holding down left trigger enters aim mode, right trigger throws the spear. Tap left and then quickly right trigger to throw the spear without aiming at the closest enemy in range.
The combat in Ryse is clunky and slow, it autolocks and has no deeper aiming mechanics like GoW. You don't free aim. That's how it allows a more forgiving and unpredictable camera system. Show the video of this transition from zoomed out almost locked side view that turns into a fluid pilum throw with free aim in Ryse. You can't.

It's still a third person camera so I don't see how you'd have to dumb down anything unless you have no imagination whatsoever.
Because the camera system plays a large part in a combat system being fluid, predictable and playable rather than frustrating the player. If the camera zooms out completely and starts changing the pivot point from where the projectile is being thrown massively you don't have a good aiming system anymore, unless you have a lock on system.

It's dumbed down in ryse, the combat is dumbed down in ryse to get rid of any frustration that would occur from this camera system. If you have really dumbed down combat you can move the camera however you like without causing any player frustration. The QTE mechanic is the extreme of this.

A pilum throw in Ryse doesn't require precision aiming, it isn't like aiming the axe in GoW. If GOW copied Ryse it's a lot more difficult to aim if the camera has a mind of its own, that zooms out and pans of its own accord. Free aiming over the shoulder is different.

You can learn about GOWs targeting system in this video especially the part where they were contemplating making it behave like a shooter and how they made a good combat system that mixed ranged attacks and melee crowd control.




It's not that others don't have an imagination. It's that you haven't considered the nuances of the camera system and how they affect combat. How Ryse's camera system only works and isn't frustrating because the combat system is simplistic and built to not frustrate the player. That camera system is built for the bad combat system.
 
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I know you cant beat GMGOW because all the stuff you complaining about eg: cant interrupt enemy combo, cant stagger every enemy (LOL), barely do any damage etc. And on top of that you rely on camera lock on. Like if this stuff is giving you problems in lower level aint no way you beating GMGOW.

At some point you need to stop blaming the game and adapt and learn to play better or accept you are not good as you think you are. Seriously, like you complaining about how you getting hit all the time when you evade and then you got players posting zero hit combat combo vids using level 1 armor on GMGOW.

Trying to shame the skill level of a stranger based on the fact he didn’t play his first Ragnarok play-through on the hardest difficulty setting is clown world shit.

In regards to combat. Parry not breaking enemy combo is bullshit. Inconsistent stagger depending on enemies being animation locked is a problem. The camera being too close during hectic fights is an issue many people have with the game. I could go on. The issue here is that you don’t understand the difference between a critique and a complaint. You act like everyone that didn’t like a mechanic played the game on easy mode and struggled all the way. That any issue anyone has with the game is simply due to lack of skill. I’m at a loss at the absurdity. Be better brother, be better.
 

Gudji

Member
Season 1 Lol GIF by NBC
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
Where did I compare anything? I only said GoW is a mix of on the fly ranged combat and crowd control and the camera system is built around that. I couldn't care less if you think Gears' camera is good/justified in comparison or not.

There is reticle based free aiming required in GoW. It's an integral part of the leviathan axe combat system. To be able to throw the axe at the head of an enemy or make an enemy stumble by aiming at their foot. That left stick free aiming mechanic both in melee and free aiming ranged attacks is part of what makes the combat good and have depth. It's built for it.



I asked in your thread right here. Maybe you're not reading the replies.


The combat in Ryse is clunky and slow, it autolocks and has no deeper aiming mechanics like GoW. You don't free aim. That's how it allows a more forgiving and unpredictable camera system. Show the video of this transition from zoomed out almost locked side view that turns into a fluid pilum throw with free aim in Ryse. You can't.


Because the camera system plays a large part in a combat system being fluid, predictable and playable rather than frustrating the player. If the camera zooms out completely and starts changing the pivot point from where the projectile is being thrown massively you don't have a good aiming system anymore, unless you have a lock on system.

It's dumbed down in ryse, the combat is dumbed down in ryse to get rid of any frustration that would occur from this camera system. If you have really dumbed down combat you can move the camera however you like without causing any player frustration. The QTE mechanic is the extreme of this.

A pilum throw in Ryse doesn't require precision aiming, it isn't like aiming the axe in GoW. If GOW copied Ryse it's a lot more difficult to aim if the camera has a mind of its own, that zooms out and pans of its own accord. Free aiming over the shoulder is different.

You can learn about GOWs targeting system in this video especially the part where they were contemplating making it behave like a shooter and how they made a good combat system that mixed ranged attacks and melee crowd control.




It's not that others don't have an imagination. It's that you haven't considered the nuances of the camera system and how they affect combat. How Ryse's camera system only works and isn't frustrating because the combat system is simplistic and built to not frustrate the player. That camera system is built for bad combat system.

All I'm gonna say is that you should pay more attention to what I'm writing because I never said that the combat and all of the surrounding mechanics should be replicated exactly, just that the camera could work more similarly to what Ryse did to give you a better view of the battlefield during combat.

Also, I don't know why it's such an incomprehensible concept for you to imagine that a camera could still zoom in on the targeting reticle when aiming something, and then zoom back out to a wider view of the battlefield, especially if Ryse was able to do it smoothly without problems. The proof is in the pudding, you're just unwilling to see it. And no, in case you really need me to spell this out for you, I'm not suggesting that God of War should also snap to targets automatically like it does in Ryse. The aiming would still work the same, I'm just talking about the camera work. Like, come on dude, think for a second.
 

Three

Member
All I'm gonna say is that you should pay more attention to what I'm writing because I never said that the combat and all of the surrounding mechanics should be replicated exactly, just that the camera could work more similarly to what Ryse did to give you a better view of the battlefield during combat.
Maybe you should pay a little more attention to what I'm writing and realise that I'm saying Ryse's camera system only works because of the simplified combat system that goes with it.
Also, I don't know why it's such an incomprehensible concept for you to imagine that a camera could still zoom in on the targeting reticle when aiming something, and then zoom back out to a wider view of the battlefield, especially if Ryse was able to do it smoothly without problems. The proof is in the pudding, you're just unwilling to see it. And no, in case you really need me to spell this out for you, I'm not suggesting that God of War should also snap to targets automatically like it does in Ryse. The aiming would still work the same, I'm just talking about the camera work. Like, come on dude, think for a second.
But you're failing to realise that keeping the leviathan axe near the centre of the camera and the distance between it and the camera close makes the long range aiming mechanics work fluidly and without it requiring some clunky transition time whereas in Ryse's simplistic automatic snap to target combat this isn't a requirement allowing this freeform move all over the place camera.
 
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Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
he can easily wipe out a group of 10 mobs in seconds yet when you go back to Kratos/Atreus he cant even handle a single mob without needing help 🤣🤣
If Atreus killed all of the enemies for you while you play as Kratos then you'd be here complaining about Atreus being too helpful in combat...
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
Maybe you should pay a little more attention to what I'm writing and realise that I'm saying Ryse's camera system only works because of the simplified combat system that goes with it.
Why can't it work unless combat is simplified? Are you saying that dozens of other character action games that use wider, orbiting camera angles such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, or Nier Automata, are simplistic and don't compare to Ragnarok in terms of technical complexity?

But you're failing to realise that keeping the leviathan axe near the centre of the camera and the distance between it and the camera close makes the long range aiming mechanics work fluidly and without it requiring some clunky transition time whereas in Ryse's simplistic automatic snap to target combat this isn't a requirement allowing this freeform move all over the place camera.
How is it "clunky"? Explain, because it sounds like you're just using this word arbitrarily and there's no actual evidence to support such claim it in the game itself. You push the left trigger, the camera snaps behind your shoulder. You release the button, it transitions back into action. There's literally nothing that's clunky about it, you're just being a contrarian.
 

Three

Member
Why can't it work unless combat is simplified? Are you saying that dozens of other character action games that use wider, orbiting camera angles such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, or Nier Automata, are simplistic and don't compare to Ragnarok in terms of technical complexity?
I don't know all the gameplay or camera mechanics of those games. I'm talking about the camera mechanics you compared and showed in the ryse video. Where the camera is freeform. Doesn't maintain a set point of interest/pivot and moves in and out of action for QTEs. I'm saying how a game plays in combat is tied to the camera mechanics. I'm sure whatever camera mechanics they've deployed works for their game (or maybe doesn’t).
How is it "clunky"? Explain, because it sounds like you're just using this word arbitrarily and there's no actual evidence to support such claim it in the game itself. You push the left trigger, the camera snaps behind your shoulder. You release the button, it transitions back into action. There's literally nothing that's clunky about it, you're just being a contrarian.
"Snaps" behind your shoulder is easier said than done because you're not thinking it through. You're using Ryse as your example, now imagine the camera has gone into this position like Ryse does with its camera system:
Screenshot-20230415-232012-You-Tube.jpg

How would you "snap" to an over the shoulder free aiming view without a clunky (heavy/slow) or jaring transition and then back into this wide melee/crowd control view? Now if you had a simplified automatically locked on ranged attack like ryse does this doesn't matter.
 
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Drizzlehell

Banned
I don't know all the gameplay or camera mechanics of those games. I'm talking about the camera mechanics you compared and showed in the ryse video. Where the camera is freeform. Doesn't maintain a set point of interest/pivot and moves in and out of action for QTEs. I'm saying how a game plays in combat is tied to the camera mechanics. I'm sure whatever camera mechanics they've deployed works for their game (or maybe doesn’t).

"Snaps" behind your shoulder is easier said than done because you're not thinking it through. You're using Ryse as your example, now imagine the camera has gone into this position like Ryse does with its camera system:
Screenshot-20230415-232012-You-Tube.jpg

How would you "snap" to an over the shoulder free aiming view without a clunky (heavy/slow) or jaring transition and then back into this wide melee/crowd control view? Now if you had a simplified automatic locked on ranged attack like ryse does this doesn't matter.
Can you stop for a second and try to comprehend that there's a difference between concept and execution? You keep arguing with me as if I'm suggesting that God of War devs should literally copy the mechanics and control scheme from Ryse and implement them into their own game verbatim. Which, for the last time, is not what I was suggesting.

If you can't understand that then there's really no point in discussing this any further. I'm tired of talking about this with you anyway.
 

Three

Member
Can you stop for a second and try to comprehend that there's a difference between concept and execution? You keep arguing with me as if I'm suggesting that God of War devs should literally copy the mechanics and control scheme from Ryse and implement them into their own game verbatim. Which, for the last time, is not what I was suggesting.
If you can't understand that then there's really no point in discussing this any further. I'm tired of talking about this with you anyway.
You're suggesting another game's camera system as a solution to some kind of problem. You're saying Ryse's camera system is "an elegant solution for a melee action game of this sort and I think it would solve the majority of the problems with the combat that the recent God of War games are suffering from". Ryse's camera system in God of War would introduce problems that do not suit its gameplay and I'm giving you examples of how it would not work and how it works with Ryse's simpler combat mechanics. If you don't want to actually discuss it when getting into the details then that's something else.
 
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MarkMe2525

Gold Member
Why can't it work unless combat is simplified? Are you saying that dozens of other character action games that use wider, orbiting camera angles such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, or Nier Automata, are simplistic and don't compare to Ragnarok in terms of technical complexity?


How is it "clunky"? Explain, because it sounds like you're just using this word arbitrarily and there's no actual evidence to support such claim it in the game itself. You push the left trigger, the camera snaps behind your shoulder. You release the button, it transitions back into action. There's literally nothing that's clunky about it, you're just being a contrarian.
There really is no point in discussing this with him. By stating a Sony first party game could be improved upon, by his reasoning, makes your suggestion null and void. I mean c'mon, he is suggesting that a more pulled back camera rules out complex gameplay mechanics...get real.. how could one even come to that conclusion without being full of it.
 
I don’t really agree at all. But damn, I never played RYSE it looked that good? It looks as good as most games coming out right now that’s crazy

EDIT: also wouldn’t the simplest solution here just be zooming the camera farther out but keeping it fixed behind kratos and then going in close when he aims?
 
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Freeman76

Member
If Atreus killed all of the enemies for you while you play as Kratos then you'd be here complaining about Atreus being too helpful in combat...
Thats not what I'm suggesting, but you know that and obviously jusylt feel the need to be an ass for some reason
 

GymWolf

Member
Trying to shame the skill level of a stranger based on the fact he didn’t play his first Ragnarok play-through on the hardest difficulty setting is clown world shit.

In regards to combat. Parry not breaking enemy combo is bullshit. Inconsistent stagger depending on enemies being animation locked is a problem. The camera being too close during hectic fights is an issue many people have with the game. I could go on. The issue here is that you don’t understand the difference between a critique and a complaint. You act like everyone that didn’t like a mechanic played the game on easy mode and struggled all the way. That any issue anyone has with the game is simply due to lack of skill. I’m at a loss at the absurdity. Be better brother, be better.
In sekiro you parry a lot of consecutive hits without breaking enemy combos for the majority of time and people consider that one a top tier combat system.

LivelyClumsyKingfisher-size_restricted.gif
 

Three

Member
There really is no point in discussing this with him. By stating a Sony first party game could be improved upon, by his reasoning, makes your suggestion null and void. I mean c'mon, he is suggesting that a more pulled back camera rules out complex gameplay mechanics...get real.. how could one even come to that conclusion without being full of it.
How about you just say how this camera system would work instead for ranged aiming and melee?
 

kingyala

Banned
Another spicy premise, I know. But bear with me for a second, will ya?

Obviously Ryse isn't a perfect game. Most people would say that it's not even a good game. Others would say that it's a pretty shitty game. And all of those opinions have merit. Upon my recent replay of Ryse, I frequently found myself looking at my watch, wondering how long is it going to take to finish it, which is telling how much of a dull and repetitive slog the combat can be in this game. It's already a very short game and yet it still manages to overstay its welcome with its simplistic, repetitive gameplay, over-reliance on quick time event finishing moves, and overall emphasis on style and spectacle over any actual substance.

However...

There's one thing that Ryse does about its combat system that's pretty cool.



Notice how the camera works in this game. When you're outside of combat, it assumes a very familiar position over the player's shoulder with the controls resembling the traditional third person shooter scheme that's also used in recent God of War games. However, while the camera position and control scheme remains the same almost the entire time in God of War, as soon as you enter combat in Ryse, the game actually pulls its camera back and switches to a more orbiting view of the action while the player gains the ability to direct their attacks in any which way while also having the ability to parry any incoming attacks, regardless of where they're coming from. Frankly, that's quite an elegant solution for a melee action game of this sort and I think it would solve the majority of the problems with the combat that the recent God of War games are suffering from.

Now, the obvious question is: why God of War designers decided to use such a camera in the first place? Well, according to the commentary provided in the making of videos, it seems like they wanted to prioritize immersion and staying up close and personal with the characters. And that's a fine idea on paper, but as soon as you get into the fray with several monsters at once, some of which attack you from off-screen and when it's frequently difficult to notice, even with all the attack indicators and shit, it just becomes a bit of a clusterfuck and a constant source of frustration, especially on higher difficulties.

If the camera was allowed to zoom out a little bit and give you a more comprehensive view on the battlefield as well as bigger freedom of movement, then I think the combat in this game would work much better overall. Obviously the moveset, enemy variety, and everything else should remain the same, but the only change that I would welcome concerns the camera work and movement during combat.

nope they both suck... ryse sucks more... repetitive animations with weird jerky physics none of them are as smooth as batman ir ninja gaiden
 

MarkMe2525

Gold Member
How about you just say how this camera system would work instead for ranged aiming and melee?
Believe it or not, I'm not a video game developer, and while it is flattering that you put stock on the approach I would take to solve some of these issues, I don't believe I am the person that one should go to with such questions.

In saying that, I believe I am being presented a false dilemma here. The question of how would one implement the currently least mechanically fun system of GoW with this camera set up, isn't one worth asking. There have been plenty of games that have integrated melee and ranged combat that one could look to for inspiration or confirmation that it can be done in an engaging way. The point of the whole OP was discussing the merits of what would have been possible with this stated change.

Also, GoW was one of, if not my favorite, game of last gen. While it may not be particularly productive, I do find it amusing to debate "what if" scenarios like the one being talked a out here. It's odd that it would be suggested that the current camera set up, in GoW, is the only practical choice the devs could have made.
 

Three

Member
Believe it or not, I'm not a video game developer, and while it is flattering that you put stock on the approach I would take to solve some of these issues, I don't believe I am the person that one should go to with such questions.

In saying that, I believe I am being presented a false dilemma here. The question of how would one implement the currently least mechanically fun system of GoW with this camera set up, isn't one worth asking. There have been plenty of games that have integrated melee and ranged combat that one could look to for inspiration or confirmation that it can be done in an engaging way. The point of the whole OP was discussing the merits of what would have been possible with this stated change.
So the main battle system of being able to aim and throw the leviathan axe seamlessly and how that would work with Ryses camera system is not a question worth asking? Of course it is.

If you wanted a game to also play the same as "plenty of other games" out there that have gameplay differences suited to their camera system then just play those games. But the OP has come to the conclusion that the battle system in GOW is good but would prefer a pulled back orbiting camera. This would change the combat system though and they haven't thought that through.

Also, GoW was one of, if not my favorite, game of last gen. While it may not be particularly productive, I do find it amusing to debate "what if" scenarios like the one being talked a out here. It's odd that it would be suggested that the current camera set up, in GoW, is the only practical choice the devs could have made.
Nobody is saying don't talk about it. I'm asking how the aiming mechanic of the various weapons would be implemented if the camera were to go out and orbit the player. It wouldn't work well at all in fluid combat. You would need to change the gameplay or break the aiming mechanics in the game to some clunky slow transition and appropriate enemy combat speed in the game to not have a frustrating game. The camera system and gameplay go hand in hand.
 

MarkMe2525

Gold Member
If you wanted a game to also play the same as "plenty of other games" out there that have gameplay differences suited to their camera system then just play those games. But the OP has come to the conclusion that the battle system in GOW is good but would prefer a pulled back orbiting camera. This would change the combat system though and they haven't thought that through.
I can't speak for others, but that's exactly what I would want to happen. You can keep the melee combat as is, for the most part, but I would welcome a change to the ranged combat. As I mentioned in my last post, IMO the ranged combat is the least mechanically fun part of GoW combat. This isn't a knock on the game, I loved it, but naturally some parts are going to be stronger than others.
Nobody is saying don't talk about it. I'm asking how the aiming mechanic of the various weapons would be implemented if the camera were to go out and orbit the player. It wouldn't work well at all in fluid combat. You would need to change the gameplay or break the aiming mechanics in the game to some clunky slow transition and appropriate enemy combat speed in the game to not have a frustrating game. The camera system and gameplay go hand in hand.
Why would it have to "some clunky slow transition"? If they really had to keep the exact same ranged mechanics (which would not be ideal nor preferred) I can just as easily imagine a quick camera snap much like the shadow of war games, assassins creed, or how Ryse (the game originally referenced). Even if the camera was just pulled back some, that would open up gameplay opportunities, not limit them. Again, I'm not claiming that I have the answers, but I would assume that there are some talented game designers who do.

Regarding the gameplay and camera going hand and hand. While there is some causation in the game design that reflects the tight over the shoulder camera chosen for GoW, I wouldn't go as far as to say that the gameplay relies on said camera. The combat would be just as excellent with a different camera configuration, even if not exactly the same.
 

Drizzlehell

Banned
I didn’t play Ryse but I do somewhat agree the camera it’s too fucking close to Kratos and the Berserker fight with two sisters really showed the flaw of this camera system.

Even in God Hand the camera is that close to the character.
Criminally underrated game, lol.
 
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