Support NeoGAF

[Lunatic_Gamer]

Gaming technology moves at a breathtaking pace, even if console generations make it feel static for years at a time - advancements are always happening out of sight.

Artificial intelligence is a buzzword at the moment, but in gaming it generally means something simpler than in the wider world - opponents and allies. AI is shorthand for the bots you play against or alongside, whether those are singleplayer enemies or multiplayer targets.

Players can finally race against Sony's GT Sophy AI, a bot that it's spent years honing with researchers. Unveiled a year ago, it's been facing trials since then and is now out for all of us to match up against.

It's an amazing experience doing so - carefully crafted to play with your expectations. A series of races are on offer, each with multiple difficulty levels, starting you in an overpowered car compared to the AI racers before eventually offering a totally level playing field.

Once you get up to that final level, GT Sophy's sophistication is manifest, in the form of a racer that is unpredictable and opportunistic like no AI we've ever raced.

This isn't just a simple system like Forza's Drivatar options, making the bot more or less aggressive - it's a racer that reacts in real-time and spots opportunities to pull off moves that we didn't even see.

It drives like a player would, if that player were the most reliable and mistake-free driver on the circuit, and it's amazing how revolutionary that can feel.

The question it casts, though, is how it'll impact the scene - is this the future of practice racing, against a perfect machine that can push you to new heights? Or is it the death of competitive Gran Turismo, as people's hopes are snuffed out by a Terminator-like chaser?

The good news is that the AI is in Sony and Polyphony Digital's own hands - unlike in other games, where third-party bots can infiltrate from the outside to crush competitive integrity. Rocket League recently had its own inquest into how a bot called Nexto was being used in ranked play, for one, an almost existential threat to a game's ecosystem.

Meanwhile, ChatGPT and other AI implementations are threatening the worlds of publishing and programming with AI-created scripts that are hard to pick out from authored content, making GT Sophy's release feel all the more timely.

For now, all we can recommend is that any racing fans seek out the Race Together event to try it for themselves. Getting destroyed by an AI is nothing new, but playing one that's indistinguishable from an ace human driver leaves its own distinct glow of admiration.

Gran Turismo may have just blown gaming AI wide open

Its GT Sophy racers are wildly challenging.

www.pocket-lint.com

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Is this going to trickle down into the AI of regular racers in GT7?

 

[Unknown?]

Driving against these bots has been a pleasure. Not comparable to any other game. AI in other games(and GT7) are just algorithms, not actually able to learn.

 

[Senua]

PD typically underdeliver in my eyes but this is not one of those times, seriously impressive tech

 

[geary]

They describe this AI like is cooking meals, washing and ironing cloths for you. The article looks like it's written by a person who is hearing for the first time the word AI.

 

[Crayon]

I haven't tried it. It's hard to imagine how even a sophisticated ai can show these neat qualities while it's driving like the fucking terminator but word of mouth is positive all around.

 

[Senua]

They describe this AI like is cooking meals, washing and ironing cloths for you.

She's a goods lass, our Sophie

 

[Con-Z-epT]

Is this going to trickle down into the AI of regular racers in GT7?

Not anytime soon i guess. The amount of AI's on track seems still restricted and while it's already much better than the current AI it still needs a lot of work.

 

[reksveks]

CICERO: An AI agent that negotiates, persuades, and cooperates with people

Meta AI has built CICERO, the first AI to achieve human-level performance in the popular strategy game Diplomacy. It's a breakthrough toward building AI that can use language to work with people to achieve strategic goals.

ai.facebook.com

At some point, these game playing ai as do most narrow ai models do feel rather samey but it's still pretty cool.

 

[geary]

She's a goods lass, our Sophie

Unless she cuts wood and goes hunting, i dont bite it.

 

[vivftp]

I maintain that Sophy may be a testbed for an AI that Sony/Honda's joint venture Afeela may use in their goal towards creating self driving cars. They can have Sophy learn by pitting it against millions of GT7 players once it fully launches.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Polyphony later releases a city driving game in addition to the traditional GT games so Sophy can learn about driving in something closer to the real world

That's my guess

 

[ANDS]

They describe this AI like is cooking meals, washing and ironing cloths for you. The article looks like it's written by a person who is hearing for the first time the word AI.

They are literally describing the things the AI SHOULD be capable of within the context of a video game simulation racer. Not sure where you are extrapolating all this other stuff from.

I maintain that Sophy may be a testbed for an AI that Sony/Honda's joint venture Afeela may use in their goal towards creating self driving cars. They can have Sophy learn by pitting it against millions of GT7 players once it fully launches.

This would be manifestly a stupid idea. The "stakes" in virtual racing are nowhere near the same as in real life so any data gleaned from this would be dubious at best.

 

[Kvally]

Sophy AI is slick. I know it's limited right now in the game, but I would love to see them spread this to the entire game's campaign.

Gaming technology moves at a breathtaking pace, even if console generations make it feel static for years at a time - advancements are always happening out of sight.

Artificial intelligence is a buzzword at the moment, but in gaming it generally means something simpler than in the wider world - opponents and allies. AI is shorthand for the bots you play against or alongside, whether those are singleplayer enemies or multiplayer targets.

Players can finally race against Sony's GT Sophy AI, a bot that it's spent years honing with researchers. Unveiled a year ago, it's been facing trials since then and is now out for all of us to match up against.

It's an amazing experience doing so - carefully crafted to play with your expectations. A series of races are on offer, each with multiple difficulty levels, starting you in an overpowered car compared to the AI racers before eventually offering a totally level playing field.

Once you get up to that final level, GT Sophy's sophistication is manifest, in the form of a racer that is unpredictable and opportunistic like no AI we've ever raced.

It is pretty sweet.

This isn't just a simple system like Forza's Drivatar options, making the bot more or less aggressive -

That isn't how Drivatar works, "Pocket Lint". Never even heard of that website, lol. Anyway, here is how the drivatar system works. It's not just making a bot aggressive.

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/how-forza-s-drivatar-actually-works

Got to just love "game journalists" these days.

Meanwhile, ChatGPT and other AI implementations are threatening the worlds of publishing and programming with AI-created scripts that are hard to pick out from authored content, making GT Sophy's release feel all the more timely.

Seems like ChatGPT is garbage in many scenarios. Cool in theory though.

 

[Alexios]

Sega had racing AI learning from you like 3 decades ago. Fighting game AI too for that matter. Various user made FPS bots like RealBot for Counter-Strike back in the day had similar features. Personalities, skillsets, learning you could customize in many different ways. It's cool but hardly a first or groundbreaking. Nor does it fit all games (and is why every single player shooter doesn't have its regular enemies behave like a multiplayer bot and thus closer to a player, as the way players behave in a game is not how they would behave in such a scenario in real life thus different types of AI are needed for immersion and gameplay purposes), hence why after they were first introduced that didn't mean that every game had to have them to present the desired experience, though it was cool to have some pretty damn competent official bots to practice duels against in Unreal Tournament 3.

 

[nowhat]

Seems like ChatGPT is garbage in many scenarios. Cool in theory though.

I think ChatGPT's problem (as cool as it is, and I've been especially impressed with its Finnish capabilities - not perfect by any means, but as the language is basically elvish, impressive at any rate) is twofold: the basic model (that you can access via chat.openai.com) only can answer questions that were present in the source dataset it was trained on. Thus anything very recent will be excluded. And if you combine it with the ability to do web queries, the results can be... interesting. Which is why MS pulled the plug on Bing integration, at least in a non-restricted fashion, quite quickly.

It's certainly impressive tech in its own right. But at the same time, far from perfect, and at times, completely incorrect while sounding convincing (even with the base language model using static data).

 

[Zimmy68]

Not impressed. I was shocked that GT7 still used the "let's give the AI drivers half a lap lead" because we don't know how to match with you.

 

[Max_Po]

I will be blown away if the AI driver rolls down the window and yell... YOU SUCK!!!!

 

[Unknown?]

Not impressed. I was shocked that GT7 still used the "let's give the AI drivers half a lap lead" because we don't know how to match with you.

That's not Sophy.

 

[T4keD0wN]

Can a person who isnt resposible for creating this specific AI tell any difference?

 

[Kvally]

Not impressed. I was shocked that GT7 still used the "let's give the AI drivers half a lap lead" because we don't know how to match with you.

One thing that FM and GT need to add to their campaign is qualifying.

 

[Unknown?]

One thing that FM and GT need to add to their campaign is qualifying.

Yeah they do, which is weird, because they used to. At least they did in older GT games.

 

[Kvally]

Yeah they do, which is weird, because they used to. At least they did in older GT games.

That is why I play Assetto Corsa Competizione for my true sim desires. I love the campaign qualifying. And of course the insanely good physics and sounds. If I had a powerhouse PC, I would probably be iRacing all day.

 

[Klosshufvud]

I wish fighting games learned. Instead we still have the same input-reading cheating AI that pull off moves at impossible reaction speed. It kills all the joy off single player fighting games.

 

[Abriael_GN]

It's interesting, but no, it did not "Blow anything wide open." This kind of stuff has been in the works for a long time and AI applied to gaming isn't new.

And no. Drivatar isn't just a "simple system." It's actually a very similar concept, but funny to see how this writer underestimates it (without explaining) to make the hype in their own article sound more legit.

Incidentally:

"It drives like a player would, if that player were the most reliable and mistake-free driver on the circuit, and it's amazing how revolutionary that can feel."

This is exactly the worst flaw of the system. Driving against a perfect robot that never makes mistakes may be good for the challenge and self-improvement, but it's not at all immersive and certainly does not give the impression that you're driving against humans.

The true test of the quality of a gaming AI is the ability to simulate human mistakes, not how skilled it is.

 

[Zimmy68]

One thing that FM and GT need to add to their campaign is qualifying.

Great idea, I think GT4 or 5 did it. I usually don't mind but when they force you to race low powered cars like the K-Cup, it becomes a boat race and you have to sink $100,000 into restricted upgrades just to hope to finish in 3rd place.
I also like the idea of a better AI racer but would love to see them mess up a turn once in awhile instead of being a basic ghost of the perfect lap time.

 

[vivftp]

They are literally describing the things the AI SHOULD be capable of within the context of a video game simulation racer. Not sure where you are extrapolating all this other stuff from.



This would be manifestly a stupid idea. The "stakes" in virtual racing are nowhere near the same as in real life so any data gleaned from this would be dubious at best.

I'm not saying they plop Sophy into a real car and call it a day. I'm saying it'd be the early stages of such an AI. One that can analyze and react to Human actions, learn and adapt.

This is an idea that was floated when Sophy was first introduced.

AI Outraces Human Champs at the Video Game Gran Turismo

The program also challenges certain assumptions about self-driving cars

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[EverydayBeast]

AI and bots are huge in video games.

 

[Kvally]

AI and bots are huge in video games.

Butts are huge in video games?

 

[Spukc]

when i just crashed my car, sophy turned around and asked me if she was real. And that she wanted to stop racing.
this AI is insane

 

[DeepEnigma]

Not impressed. I was shocked that GT7 still used the "let's give the AI drivers half a lap lead" because we don't know how to match with you.

That is not what Sophy does. At all.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

I maintain that Sophy may be a testbed for an AI that Sony/Honda's joint venture Afeela may use in their goal towards creating self driving cars. They can have Sophy learn by pitting it against millions of GT7 players once it fully launches.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Polyphony later releases a city driving game in addition to the traditional GT games so Sophy can learn about driving in something closer to the real world

That's my guess

I would hope this is the case.

I don’t know why GT doesn’t have a mode thats basically drivers ED for many countries. Especially now with VR.

 

[Comandr]

I don’t really care for GT7 or simulation racers. I prefer arcade racers. But I do like AI. How is Sophy categorically different than any other CPU opponent for the last… since there have been video games? ELI5 please.

 

[hyperbertha]

It seems some people in this thread think of Sophy as traditional hand written AI. lol.

 

[xrnzaaas]

It drives like a player would, if that player were the most reliable and mistake-free driver on the circuit,

So it doesn't drive like the player would. Even the best drivers in the world make dumb moves and mistakes.

Here's an idea - I don't want to go against a Terminator, I want to against a Terminator pretending to be a human being.

 

[Gamerguy84]

The making of Sophy was awesome. There are several videos out and I cant find the exact one I'm looking for. Here is a similar one.



Sophy wasn't preprogrammed to run a perfect lap. She was given every piece of information about tired, track, suspension, curvature of turns. everything and let loose.

Done through lots of learning and input, Sophy was programmed to do run the track as fast as possible with all variables, including humans in the way.

I watched 3 of these videos.

 

[Abriael_GN]

So it doesn't drive like the player would. Even the best drivers in the world make dumb moves and mistakes.

Here's an idea - I don't want to go against a Terminator, I want to against a Terminator pretending to be a human being.

That's exactly the issue. And that's something that has been (weirdly) touted since it was first introduced.

Sophy is a very skilled driving model but a rather poor representation of what an AI should be to make a game more immersive.

She was given every piece of information about tired, track, suspension, curvature of turns. everything and let loose.

Only, a real driver doesn't have that information.

These people keep blabbering about "superhuman performance" and they 100% miss the point that "superhuman" is not what they should be aiming for. It's very impressive tech... used entirely the wrong way. Gaming AI should be at the service of the player's fun and immersion, not aiming to overwhelm the player with perfect performance. The subset of players for which competing against a "superhuman" driving model is actually fun beyond the novelty is very, very small.

 

[Skifi28]

I liked what I saw, but they need to be able and add a few more AIs on track if possible and hurry up and bring them to SP instead of just a time-limited demo.

 

[vivftp]

I liked what I saw, but they need to be able and add a few more AIs on track if possible and hurry up and bring them to SP instead of just a time-limited demo.

This is Sophy's first trial out in the real world with millions of players. It's a gradual process to build something so sophisticated and this trial is to let them gather data for Sophy to have an eventual full launch down the road. Things take time and testing.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

This is a good thing.

However, the one thing that will make AI drivers feel human-like is the one thing they will never really let them do.

Cheat.

 

[Abriael_GN]

I liked what I saw, but they need to be able and add a few more AIs on track if possible and hurry up and bring them to SP instead of just a time-limited demo.

There's a reason why they did not. And that's because Polyphony isn't Sony AI. The people at Polyphony are game developers (as opposed to researchers) and know that applying a superhuman bot to the game as a whole would pretty much ruin it for 99% of players. It's good as a novelty and perhaps for training top players (and that's debatable), but not for day-to-day gameplay.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Don't let her speak. Just race, bitch.

Twitter taught Microsoft’s AI chatbot to be a racist asshole in less than a day

The Verge is about technology and how it makes us feel. Founded in 2011, we offer our audience everything from breaking news to reviews to award-winning features and investigations, on our site, in video, and in podcasts.

www.theverge.com

Microsoft’s racist chatbot returns with drug-smoking Twitter meltdown

Short lived return saw Tay tweet about smoking drugs in front of the police before suffering a meltdown and being taken offline

www.theguardian.com

 

[Captain Toad]

But, I LIKE dumb AI. I don't play a lot of games online, because it's too difficult to consistently beat actual players, most of whom probably play that particular game a lot more than me.

I love dealing with dumb AF enemies in Souls and hate being invaded by a person who won't let me just cheese them.

If AF starts acting like actual, thinking players, I'm screwed.

 

[mhirano]

Sega had racing AI learning from you like 3 decades ago. Fighting game AI too for that matter. Various user made FPS bots like RealBot for Counter-Strike back in the day had similar features. Personalities, skillsets, learning you could customize in many different ways. It's cool but hardly a first or groundbreaking. Nor does it fit all games (and is why every single player shooter doesn't have its regular enemies behave like a multiplayer bot and thus closer to a player, as the way players behave in a game is not how they would behave in such a scenario in real life thus different types of AI are needed for immersion and gameplay purposes), hence why after they were first introduced that didn't mean that every game had to have them to present the desired experience, though it was cool to have some pretty damn competent official bots to practice duels against in Unreal Tournament 3.

The AI algorithms made unbelievable advancementes in the last couple years.
ChatGPT, Stable Diffusion, Moses.ai, ESRGAN, Bing AI and probably this GT7 AI are orders of magnitude more advanced and complex than regular game ‘AI’ (that was not intelligent at all)

 

[Abriael_GN]

If AF starts acting like actual, thinking players, I'm screwed.

That's not what Sophy does. It acts like a perfect robot that has all the data (including the data that an actual player would not have) and doesn't make mistakes. Basically, it's worse.

Actual thinking players make a ton of mistakes, which is part of what makes playing against human opponents exciting.

 

[Chiggs]

Smells like hype.

 

[vivftp]

Reminder that Sophy was featured in Nature Journal, which is about as prestigious as it gets for scientific journals. Link to a snippet of the article, a sub is required for the full thing

Outracing champion Gran Turismo drivers with deep reinforcement learning - Nature

Using the game Gran Turismo, an agent was trained with a combination of deep reinforcement learning algorithms and specialized training scenarios, demonstrating success against championship-level human racers.

www.nature.com

Sophy is no mere small upgrade. Polyphony and Sony AI have done some good work and I'm curious to see how Sony AI works with other PlayStation studios on their games. Imagine if they took the already superb AI in TLOU 2 and gave it a Sophy-like bump for a future game. It'd be bloody amazing

 

[Unknown?]

That's not what Sophy does. It acts like a perfect robot that has all the data (including the data that an actual player would not have) and doesn't make mistakes. Basically, it's worse.

Actual thinking players make a ton of mistakes, which is part of what makes playing against human opponents exciting.

I hope it is perfect because players who drive like crap will claim it's dumb if it hits them even though a real racer would have done the same if they break hard in the wrong spot

 

[ToadMan]

I used VR to race Sophy and it was more stressful than a horror game.

However, she has race craft weaknesses that can be exploited and makes mistakes here and there.

Oh - she is capable of standing starts which is a nice change of pace.

I am by no means an alien - for me she was a challenge but not an overwhelming one.

And it was nice to finally be able to race wheel to wheel with an AI, and not feel they were just there as a moving chicane.

Oh and the AIs race each other too which can be a help or a hindrance.

 

[Guilty_AI]

AI has many applications in games however smart opponents aren't one of them, at least not extensively. People will realize at some point smart enemies =/= fun and engaging play.

They can be a nice challenge, but the average player might just find them to be frustrating to play against. Any application of the field on video game enemy AI would have to be severely controlled, gimped or directed at specific features like automated path finding or something else.

 

[Danknugz]

imagine growing up and having a job actually writing articles like this