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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

Animation is cool and all but even Elden Ring has an incredible animation system with physics that make the combat feel realistic. The motion matching is cool though. I give props about that. R&C though is as basic as they come. 100% pure art direction. The SSD use in that game is only teleporting. Most game companies don't even have that as something they need in their own games.

Rendering is what everyone wants milestones in. And unfortunately, the consoles don't drive that initiative. Now since Sony games are coming to PC, perhaps they can innovate beyond what the 3rd party AAA studios do with their own PCs with high-end GPUs.
Sony exclusives and some 3rd party titles, along with select PC games are the ONLY games pushing tech and milestones IMO…
 
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Dampf

Member
Continuing from above. When it comes to performance modes, even a poorly optimized title like the Matrix UE5 demo can easily run at higher framerates if you just disable hardware accelerated lumens. Software lumens has a far lower performance hit. The traffic and pedestrian density also has a massive hit so if you can also tone that down for performance mode.

Here is what Alex found. With Software Lumens and traffic turned off, he was able to take his framerate from 38 to 95! over a 2.5x increase without ever dropping resolution. If you drop resolution from 1440p to 1080p, use fsr, use software lumens and turn down some CPU intensive settings like A.I density then you can easily have a 1440p 30 fps game running at 1080p 60 fps with very little visual downgrades.
If anything, Im surprised Epic didnt choose software lumens for the series s version. It wouldnt have needed to dip significantly below 533p if it was using software lumens since it is 38% more efficient.

And this is a very poorly optimized single threaded demo which devs will surely optimize for release.


This is just a CPU issue, has nothing to do with the GPU. Hardware Lumen is almost free on HW-RT capable GPUs.

But it adds a lot of rendering time because it is heavily single threaded at the moment. This will be improved in the future.

Speaking of future, there is a new build available that uses a newer engine version, and it already runs a lot smoother than before and features cool new reflections on cars.


This is the best build to date and even features a settings menu that can be changed in runtime.

I would appreciate it if someone here could make performance comparisons. If you were running the previous build with DLSS, keep in mind the older build defaults to DLSS Quality.
 
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Sony exclusives and some 3rd party titles, along with select PC games are the ONLY games pushing tech and milestones IMO…
To say that Sony games such as Ratchet is "pure art direction" is a bit over the top. First of all, how are we defining what constitutes great graphical fidelity? Obviously, the ps5 is not anywhere on the level of the type of PC he has in mind, so given that fact it's clear VFX will never believe any ps5 or series x game will ever be anything more than having great art direction. The only kudos I've ever seen vfx give to a console game is Last of Us 2's animation. Vfx, you have a very rigid way of looking at things.

Is it enough though to point out that a game takes great advantage of the Ps5's hardware? In that case Ratchet is at the top in terms of visual fidelity because Insomniac has done an excellent job. That game looks phenomenal along with Demons Souls, Spiderman, msfs, fh5 (in 30 fps mode) and Horizon:fw Ratchet still seems to me the most next gen looking console game though. FW is up there too. After Cyberpunks "next gen" patch I would put that on the list too but only in its 30 fps mode, which is unplayable thanks to the awful input lag and aiming deadzones.

I'm not an expert in tech but with Ratchet the rendering, image quality, rt reflections, lighting, materials, etc all seem damn good and just a little bit better than other console games. The caveat though is these games are all pretty much running at 30 fps to achieve this which begs the question of "does it count if it's only 30 fps"? To someone like me I'd say yes since I can still play and enjoy them (though it still sucks they're not 60 fps). Credit to Demons Souls and Returnal for achieving 60 fps and looking great doing so.

Just bought a Series X and I'm disappointed in what their studios have done visually. Msfs is extremely impressive but I get bored quickly. Forza Horizon 5? I was hoping for more out of the 60 fps mode. It certainly doesn't look like the reveal demos at 60. Gears 5 looks good but not on the level of Ratchet and FW even with its Series x optimization. HALO INFINITE is very disappointing visually. Best I can say is it looks 'nice'. MS needs to step their game up big time, especially after Starfields delay. Get back to upscaling Back Compat gamed because that's the only area where they have the advantage over Sony right now.

I know, tldr..
 
To say that Sony games such as Ratchet is "pure art direction" is a bit over the top. First of all, how are we defining what constitutes great graphical fidelity? Obviously, the ps5 is not anywhere on the level of the type of PC he has in mind, so given that fact it's clear VFX will never believe any ps5 or series x game will ever be anything more than having great art direction. The only kudos I've ever seen vfx give to a console game is Last of Us 2's animation. Vfx, you have a very rigid way of looking at things.

Is it enough though to point out that a game takes great advantage of the Ps5's hardware? In that case Ratchet is at the top in terms of visual fidelity because Insomniac has done an excellent job. That game looks phenomenal along with Demons Souls, Spiderman, msfs, fh5 (in 30 fps mode) and Horizon:fw Ratchet still seems to me the most next gen looking console game though. FW is up there too. After Cyberpunks "next gen" patch I would put that on the list too but only in its 30 fps mode, which is unplayable thanks to the awful input lag and aiming deadzones.

I'm not an expert in tech but with Ratchet the rendering, image quality, rt reflections, lighting, materials, etc all seem damn good and just a little bit better than other console games. The caveat though is these games are all pretty much running at 30 fps to achieve this which begs the question of "does it count if it's only 30 fps"? To someone like me I'd say yes since I can still play and enjoy them (though it still sucks they're not 60 fps). Credit to Demons Souls and Returnal for achieving 60 fps and looking great doing so.

Just bought a Series X and I'm disappointed in what their studios have done visually. Msfs is extremely impressive but I get bored quickly. Forza Horizon 5? I was hoping for more out of the 60 fps mode. It certainly doesn't look like the reveal demos at 60. Gears 5 looks good but not on the level of Ratchet and FW even with its Series x optimization. HALO INFINITE is very disappointing visually. Best I can say is it looks 'nice'. MS needs to step their game up big time, especially after Starfields delay. Get back to upscaling Back Compat gamed because that's the only area where they have the advantage over Sony right now.

I know, tldr..
Great graphic fidelity are games that push limits and break boundaries…Ask yourself what are the best looking games available and what milestones do they achieve…If you ever played Cyberpunk 2077 on PC with Max settings you’ll know…
 

SlimySnake

Member
This is just a CPU issue, has nothing to do with the GPU. Hardware Lumen is almost free on HW-RT capable GPUs.

But it adds a lot of rendering time because it is heavily single threaded at the moment. This will be improved in the future.

Speaking of future, there is a new build available that uses a newer engine version, and it already runs a lot smoother than before and features cool new reflections on cars.


This is the best build to date and even features a settings menu that can be changed in runtime.

I would appreciate it if someone here could make performance comparisons. If you were running the previous build with DLSS, keep in mind the older build defaults to DLSS Quality.
Yeah, i downloaded that a couple of weeks ago. It's fine. I didnt notice a big difference but I will run a test or two tonight, and yes im aware the previous build defaults to DLSS. I didnt even need it on because native 4k was running so well.

My 3080 especially the 12 GB overlocked one was running it really well. 4k 45 fps which is basically 4x more pixels and 2x more framerate compared to the console versions. But DF's testing clearly showed that turning off hardware lumens boosted frames by 38%.

Epic themselves have confirmed this back when the originally revealed UE5 on xbox. They said that UE5 targets 1440p 30 fps on consoles when using software lumens and 1080p 30 fps when using hardware accelerated lumens.
 

GustavoLT

Member
Is a 3080ti with a Ryzen 7 5800x enough to hold the hole current generation!? I am a console gamer, but i'm tyred of low specs in performance mode!!! I have a PS5 and SX... I want my games at 4k 60fps all maxed out!!
 

kikkis

Member
Is a 3080ti with a Ryzen 7 5800x enough to hold the hole current generation!? I am a console gamer, but i'm tyred of low specs in performance mode!!! I have a PS5 and SX... I want my games at 4k 60fps all maxed out!!
Hard to say. Games are typically limited by single thread performance since gameplay code is impossible to fully get scaling to multiple cores. So 30fps to 60fps on from console to pc might not be the norm since cpus onconsoles are capable. If games run at around 1080p in consoles then native 4k is most likely unattainable if base game is 30fps or even 60fps. Vram is most likely enough unless you want extra ray tracing options or other higher effects.
 

SlimySnake

Member
This is just a CPU issue, has nothing to do with the GPU. Hardware Lumen is almost free on HW-RT capable GPUs.

But it adds a lot of rendering time because it is heavily single threaded at the moment. This will be improved in the future.

Speaking of future, there is a new build available that uses a newer engine version, and it already runs a lot smoother than before and features cool new reflections on cars.


This is the best build to date and even features a settings menu that can be changed in runtime.

I would appreciate it if someone here could make performance comparisons. If you were running the previous build with DLSS, keep in mind the older build defaults to DLSS Quality.
Ran some tests. Unfortunately, the screenshots didnt capture the Geforce Now framerate bar and the game doesnt run with MSI afterburner on so cant provide any FPS screencaps.

But both gameplay demos are basically the same. Maybe 2-3 fps difference at native 4k. DLSS performance is a bit better but very hard to say since the framerate fluctuates so much. But in static shots it was maybe a 3-4 fps difference between the first DLSS demo and this second one.

While walking I get 40-42 fps in native in both demos. 35-40 fps while driving. 40-45 fps while flying. Reflections do seem better in the cinematic demo.
 

VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
R&C?
Have you looked at the main characters? The fur system on them looks more impressive than any real time fur system on any game pc or console.
Yes, I've been down this road before and no, they don't look any better than any other game with fur. They are still using a very simple Kajiya model that's rendered in an extremely small pixel area on the screen (i.e. the camera is pretty far away from the main character so that the detail doesn't take up a lot of framebuffer budget during most of the gameplay).

Advanced graphical features for fur has yet to be realized in any game to date. I'm talking about using the more complex Marschner Lighting model with 2 specular lobes, 1 backscatter lobe, and 1 glint lobe + 1 diffuse lobe. Hasn't been done and won't be for awhile.
 
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SlimySnake

Member
Is a 3080ti with a Ryzen 7 5800x enough to hold the hole current generation!? I am a console gamer, but i'm tyred of low specs in performance mode!!! I have a PS5 and SX... I want my games at 4k 60fps all maxed out!!
Hard to say. Games are typically limited by single thread performance since gameplay code is impossible to fully get scaling to multiple cores. So 30fps to 60fps on from console to pc might not be the norm since cpus onconsoles are capable. If games run at around 1080p in consoles then native 4k is most likely unattainable if base game is 30fps or even 60fps. Vram is most likely enough unless you want extra ray tracing options or other higher effects.
Yep thats exactly whats happening with the Matrix demo. It's cpu bound and mostly because the demo is single threaded. Might not be the case in properly optimized next gen releases, but you never know. Will devs ever fully saturate all 16 threads at 3.5 ghz on consoles? What would the tdp be of that cpu.

A 3080 Ti should run the poorly optimized Matrix demo at around 50-55 fps at native 4k if my 3080 benchmarks are anything to go by.
 

SlimySnake

Member
To say that Sony games such as Ratchet is "pure art direction" is a bit over the top. First of all, how are we defining what constitutes great graphical fidelity? Obviously, the ps5 is not anywhere on the level of the type of PC he has in mind, so given that fact it's clear VFX will never believe any ps5 or series x game will ever be anything more than having great art direction. The only kudos I've ever seen vfx give to a console game is Last of Us 2's animation. Vfx, you have a very rigid way of looking at things.

Is it enough though to point out that a game takes great advantage of the Ps5's hardware? In that case Ratchet is at the top in terms of visual fidelity because Insomniac has done an excellent job. That game looks phenomenal along with Demons Souls, Spiderman, msfs, fh5 (in 30 fps mode) and Horizon:fw Ratchet still seems to me the most next gen looking console game though. FW is up there too. After Cyberpunks "next gen" patch I would put that on the list too but only in its 30 fps mode, which is unplayable thanks to the awful input lag and aiming deadzones.

I'm not an expert in tech but with Ratchet the rendering, image quality, rt reflections, lighting, materials, etc all seem damn good and just a little bit better than other console games. The caveat though is these games are all pretty much running at 30 fps to achieve this which begs the question of "does it count if it's only 30 fps"? To someone like me I'd say yes since I can still play and enjoy them (though it still sucks they're not 60 fps). Credit to Demons Souls and Returnal for achieving 60 fps and looking great doing so.

Just bought a Series X and I'm disappointed in what their studios have done visually. Msfs is extremely impressive but I get bored quickly. Forza Horizon 5? I was hoping for more out of the 60 fps mode. It certainly doesn't look like the reveal demos at 60. Gears 5 looks good but not on the level of Ratchet and FW even with its Series x optimization. HALO INFINITE is very disappointing visually. Best I can say is it looks 'nice'. MS needs to step their game up big time, especially after Starfields delay. Get back to upscaling Back Compat gamed because that's the only area where they have the advantage over Sony right now.

I know, tldr..
Nah, this thread is about graphics discussion, i say too long must read. ;p

I think Ratchet's ray tracing implementation is the best we've seen on consoles. I know thats not saying much, but they are doing 4kcb reflections at what native 4k 50 fps in the vrr mode? not sure what the average fps is but ive seen footage hit 60 fps on rare occasions. thats insane from a 10 tflops so-called rdna 1.5 console that was only supposed to have audio or shadow only RT. It's arguably the biggest technical showpiece on next gen consoles alongside flight sim on the XSX.

The only knock I have against Ratchet is that they were aiming for native 4k 50 fps instead of pushing visual fidelity even further. We've seen that the consoles can do so much more thanks to the latest UE5 demos and that new cyberpunk demo that looks straight up CG. I saw the Spiderman trailer and even though its PS5 only and looks like a decent step up from the first game, it doesnt even come close to the Matrix demo or the new cyberpunk demo. It's almost like they are once again aiming for native 4k 30 fps. I actually think it might be a cross gen game. Cant trust jimbo anymore.

I think Horizon looks more visually spectacular at times. it's a very schizo game. Some areas look stunning, some dont. Game looks close to next gen in fidelity mode, looks like a ps3 game in performance mode. But a cross gen game should not even come close to a next gen game like ratchet in theory. The fact that it surpasses Ratchet in some aspects is equal parts impressive and depressing because its clear even Insomniac isnt pushing the PS5 to its limits.

Still whats here from HFW, Demon Souls and Ratchet is still better than 99% of the games released so far this gen with Flight Sim being the only exception. Likely because its the only next gen only game MS has shipped so far.




 
Yes, I've been down this road before and no, they don't look any better than any other game with fur. They are still using a very simple Kajiya model that's rendered in an extremely small pixel area on the screen (i.e. the camera is pretty far away from the main character so that the detail doesn't take up a lot of framebuffer budget during most of the gameplay).

Advanced graphical features for fur has yet to be realized in any game to date. I'm talking about using the more complex Marschner Lighting model with 2 specular lobes, 1 backscatter lobe, and 1 glint lobe + 1 diffuse lobe. Hasn't been done and won't be for awhile.
Let's look at a recent title also featuring furry main characters compared to ratchet and clank.



 
Doesn’t matter what’s used…its the results.
This is what VFX and Crossing Eden on the other site can't get through their thick skulls. Video games are not CGI.

I'll say it again so you don't miss it... VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT CGI...

Game developers are aiming for impressive results in real time, inside milliseconds not frames rendered for 20 hours on workstations...

The cutting edge in *VIDEO GAMES* are Demon's Souls, Returnal, Ratchet, GT7 and Horizon II on PS5 and Gears 5, Flight Sim, Forza Horizon 5 on Series X / PC and Star Citizen on PC.

Unreal Engine 5 is not only a generational shift but a industry wide shift but whether people see that much of a difference between Spider-Man on PS4 and The Matrix UE5 demo fidelity when used in a game is down to the individual.

Videogames like movies with CGI are both products to generate revenue... The results are all that matter.
 
This is what VFX and Crossing Eden on the other site can't get through their thick skulls. Video games are not CGI.

I'll say it again so you don't miss it... VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT CGI...

Game developers are aiming for impressive results in real time, inside milliseconds not frames rendered for 20 hours on workstations...

The cutting edge in *VIDEO GAMES* are Demon's Souls, Returnal, Ratchet, GT7 and Horizon II on PS5 and Gears 5, Flight Sim, Forza Horizon 5 on Series X / PC and Star Citizen on PC.

Unreal Engine 5 is not only a generational shift but a industry wide shift but whether people see that much of a difference between Spider-Man on PS4 and The Matrix UE5 demo fidelity when used in a game is down to the individual.

Videogames like movies with CGI are both products to generate revenue... The results are all that matter.
You're forgetting some other exceptional looking games- Spiderman remastered/miles morales, guardians of the galaxy, cyberpunk 2077, dying light 2 (PC version- the console version is so disappointing), Control (on PC), Metro exodus (pc).

Not sure if gt7 deserves to make the list. I'm disappointed in Polyphony because on one hand it looks really nice (great image quality/hdr/lighting) but on the other they could've done better. There should've been a mode that has the visuals of the replay mode, but playable at an unlocked framerate for VRR.
If you're going to include gt7 and gears 5 than you gotta at least include ghost of tsushima and last of us 2, and if you're going to include last of us 2 than you gotta include Uncharted 4/Lost legacy. Btw the opening level in Lost Legacy, the linear one I'm India, is my personal favorite graphics in any game, but it's linear and has hardly any dynamic elements to it. I would also put Shadow of Collossus remake on any best of list- it's almost as good as demons souls remake imo.
 

Hunnybun

Member
You're forgetting some other exceptional looking games- Spiderman remastered/miles morales, guardians of the galaxy, cyberpunk 2077, dying light 2 (PC version- the console version is so disappointing), Control (on PC), Metro exodus (pc).

Not sure if gt7 deserves to make the list. I'm disappointed in Polyphony because on one hand it looks really nice (great image quality/hdr/lighting) but on the other they could've done better. There should've been a mode that has the visuals of the replay mode, but playable at an unlocked framerate for VRR.
If you're going to include gt7 and gears 5 than you gotta at least include ghost of tsushima and last of us 2, and if you're going to include last of us 2 than you gotta include Uncharted 4/Lost legacy. Btw the opening level in Lost Legacy, the linear one I'm India, is my personal favorite graphics in any game, but it's linear and has hardly any dynamic elements to it. I would also put Shadow of Collossus remake on any best of list- it's almost as good as demons souls remake imo.

The best graphics in Lost Legacy have to be that network of caves where all the bodies etc are, about halfway through the game. That area is fucking STUNNING. Right up there with the best visuals ever imo.
 

VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
This is what VFX and Crossing Eden on the other site can't get through their thick skulls. Video games are not CGI.

I'll say it again so you don't miss it... VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT CGI...
But VIDEO GAMES ARE GOING TOWARDS CGI ..

Game developers are aiming for impressive results in real time, inside milliseconds not frames rendered for 20 hours on workstations...

The cutting edge in *VIDEO GAMES* are Demon's Souls, Returnal, Ratchet, GT7 and Horizon II on PS5 and Gears 5, Flight Sim, Forza Horizon 5 on Series X / PC and Star Citizen on PC.

Unreal Engine 5 is not only a generational shift but a industry wide shift but whether people see that much of a difference between Spider-Man on PS4 and The Matrix UE5 demo fidelity when used in a game is down to the individual.

Videogames like movies with CGI are both products to generate revenue... The results are all that matter.
Videogames has been trying to move to CG for decades. The hardware is getting there.

1) Film PBR shaders for years. Now since last gen, videogames have adopted PBR
2) Film used ray tracing since 2002. Now RT is available (albeit very small) in games this gen.
3) FIlm uses now path tracing since 2014. Games haven't gotten close to that yet but Nvidia showed it's possibility with Marble Demo.

The trend is undebatable. Videogames WANT to move to CG-like quality (i.e. Nanite/Lumen). It's only a matter of the hardware being fast enough to support it.
 
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You compare an in-game shot with a cinematic shot. Nice!

In any case, neither of those are "pretty" tbh.
I can tell you the hair looks the same in cutscenes of biomutant, and it seemed the same on camera close ups of ingame ratchet. To you it may not be pretty, but that hair looks quite decent and as good or better than some cgi films from sometime ago.

This was the state of the art in hollywood hair just a few decades ago


and you likely called it pretty at the time.
 
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VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
I can tell you the hair looks the same in cutscenes of biomutant, and it seemed the same on camera close ups of ingame ratchet.
You should judge a game's graphics based on how you see it 90% of the time. If you took a screenshot of R&C while he's running around and collecting things with the default character distance away from the camera (i.e. not forcing the camera to move in closer when you go into a wall), you will barely even notice the hair shading. Biomutant, on the other hand, is noticeable. Both solutions are crude and need improvement when the hardware is powerful enough.

To you it may not be pretty, but that hair looks quite decent and as good or better than some cgi films from sometime ago.

This was the state of the art in hollywood hair just a few decades ago


and you likely called it pretty at the time.
I'm not going to go into this useless argument with you. Just wait until there is a game that utilizes a decent PBR hair shader model years from now. It is way too expensive right now even on 3x00 GPU boards let alone the consoles.
 
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But VIDEO GAMES ARE GOING TOWARDS CGI ..


Videogames has been trying to move to CG for decades. The hardware is getting there.

1) Film PBR shaders for years. Now since last gen, videogames have adopted PBR
2) Film used ray tracing since 2002. Now RT is available (albeit very small) in games this gen.
3) FIlm uses now path tracing since 2014. Games haven't gotten close to that yet but Nvidia showed it's possibility with Marble Demo.

The trend is undebatable. Videogames WANT to move to CG-like quality (i.e. Nanite/Lumen). It's only a matter of the hardware being fast enough to support it.
And they'll never get there because 16 or 33ms on limited hardware is not 20 hours on super renderers no matter how much real time visuals improve. So... accept that they'll never get to the same quality in real time and look at and praise what we have running at real time on $500 consoles. Your expectations of CGI level visual in real time are totally unrealistic but I think we all know the reasons you set the bar so high (so you can shit on Playstation visuals).

Also this is barely year two of the new generation. There will be massive visual improvements to come and even Ratchet will look dated by next gen only games out in late 2023.
 
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You're forgetting some other exceptional looking games- Spiderman remastered/miles morales, guardians of the galaxy, cyberpunk 2077, dying light 2 (PC version- the console version is so disappointing), Control (on PC), Metro exodus (pc).

Not sure if gt7 deserves to make the list. I'm disappointed in Polyphony because on one hand it looks really nice (great image quality/hdr/lighting) but on the other they could've done better. There should've been a mode that has the visuals of the replay mode, but playable at an unlocked framerate for VRR.
If you're going to include gt7 and gears 5 than you gotta at least include ghost of tsushima and last of us 2, and if you're going to include last of us 2 than you gotta include Uncharted 4/Lost legacy. Btw the opening level in Lost Legacy, the linear one I'm India, is my personal favorite graphics in any game, but it's linear and has hardly any dynamic elements to it. I would also put Shadow of Collossus remake on any best of list- it's almost as good as demons souls remake imo.
Yeah Metro is ridiculous looking on even my 2070 with RT at full, good shout. Ghost / TLOU II / U4+LL would all benefit greatly from proper PS5 patches, a shame it will never happen but agreed they're insane looking games. Almost every frame of Lost Legacy is like a piece of art.

I don't know if it's cause I'm sick to death looking at it from restarts and DF but 2077 doesn't do it for me at all anymore and those awful NPC's and the dead feeling of the city after playing even the GTAV PS5 remaster also don't help. Not played DL2 or Guardians yet. I also need to play Shadow of Colossus remake as I never played the original !

Games in general look phenomenal because of the relatively high resolutions, framerates and the latest shaders and PBR. Developers must read us moaning and roll their eyes through their skull lol. Shoutout to the developers you do great work !!
 
And they'll never get there because 16 or 33ms on limited hardware is not 20 hours on super renderers no matter how much real time visuals improve. So... accept that they'll never get to the same quality in real time and look at and praise what we have running at real time on $500 consoles. Your expectations of CGI level visual in real time are totally unrealistic but I think we all know the reasons you set the bar so high (so you can shit on Playstation visuals).

Also this is barely year two of the new generation. There will be massive visual improvements to come and even Ratchet will look dated by next gen only games out in late 2023.
physicists say even 1 million+ increase in computing performance is possible from current h/w. Also algorithmic improvements can sometimes do 1000+ performance increases too.
 
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