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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

This kind of graphics i expect in 4-5 years.
Even in the next 10 years we won’t have videogames that look like that. Right now in the year 2022 there is no retail videogame on the market that looks significantly better than Crysis 3 (2013 released) in regards to assets, lighting, effects, animation and just overall detail density.

Unlike that cg trailer videogames still have to solve the geometry problem. Let’s not even talk about the obvious difference in the clothing and hair simulation. The amount of shit animating in that cg trailer on a frame to frame basis compared to current video games, bruh try the next 20 years my man.
 
Even in the next 10 years we won’t have videogames that look like that. Right now in the year 2022 there is no retail videogame on the market that looks significantly better than Crysis 3 (2013 released) in regards to assets, lighting, effects, animation and just overall detail density.

Unlike that cg trailer videogames still have to solve the geometry problem. Let’s not even talk about the obvious difference in the clothing and hair simulation. The amount of shit animating in that cg trailer on a frame to frame basis compared to current video games, bruh try the next 20 years my man.
Stopped reading right about here. Like c'mon man 😂
 
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rofif

Gold Member
TLOU2 already looks like this.
Yeah it's true.
But Death Stranding looks even more real at times !
(sorry, only my old ps4 screenshots! I really need to replay on ps5...)


 

ChiefDada

Member
People fail to acknowledge just how close the comparisons are between real-time fidelity from consoles and offline rendering. For example, there are aspects of Aloy's in game character model that are much better than the offline trailer they released just prior to launch, notably sub surface scattering; when has this ever happened in the historty of console gaming? Here is a pic taken from the HFW photo thread. Credit to TGO TGO


This is being rendered by a $500 console. It is pure insanity and frankly beyond what I expected in 2022. And it's a cross gen game. Of course there is area for improvement such as lighting and animation but we have plenty of reason to be optimistic based off of what we've seen so far.
 
People fail to acknowledge just how close the comparisons are between real-time fidelity from consoles and offline rendering. For example, there are aspects of Aloy's in game character model that are much better than the offline trailer they released just prior to launch, notably sub surface scattering; when has this ever happened in the historty of console gaming? Here is a pic taken from the HFW photo thread. Credit to TGO TGO



This is being rendered by a $500 console. It is pure insanity and frankly beyond what I expected in 2022. And it's a cross gen game. Of course there is area for improvement such as lighting and animation but we have plenty of reason to be optimistic based off of what we've seen so far.
Also that is cross gen ^^^. Can't imagine what games will look like at the tail end of this gen.
 
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This kind of graphics i expect in 4-5 years.
I don't really see why it won't be feasible to see God of War 3 look close to that considering it will be built from the ground up for PS5 and have an almost unlimited budget / dev time. The most impressive aspect of that trailer to me is the physics animation. Ragnarok looks insane in it's last trailer and it's built around PC GPU hardware from 2011 and the limitations of a tablet CPU / standard HDD.
 
Consoles now are just budget gaming PCs sold at cost. There is no proprietary Cell or Emotion engine for developers to figure out and optimize.
What about optimization and the advantage there is to developing on a set piece of hardware? Or the various specialized hardware and api's? Or first party studios that can share knowledge and tech?

They're not like for like. Consoles still have potential to punch above their weight, somewhat. Obviously, the raw power of PC will ultimately beat any amount of extra optimization but this idea that since consoles individual components are "nothing but PC parts" does not tell the whole story even today in '22.
 
What about optimization and the advantage there is to developing on a set piece of hardware? Or the various specialized hardware and api's? Or first party studios that can share knowledge and tech?

They're not like for like. Consoles still have potential to punch above their weight, somewhat. Obviously, the raw power of PC will ultimately beat any amount of extra optimization but this idea that since consoles individual components are "nothing but PC parts" does not tell the whole story even today in '22.
This is true just by looking at Insomniac and Guerilla and how they improved the image quality of their games after release and offered/plan to offer additional graphics modes, optimizations seem to matter more than ever these consoles have a lot of untapped potential. I can't even imagine what late generation games are going to look and play like with more mature api's and dev familiarity of the hardware.
 
Even in the next 10 years we won’t have videogames that look like that. Right now in the year 2022 there is no retail videogame on the market that looks significantly better than Crysis 3 (2013 released) in regards to assets, lighting, effects, animation and just overall detail density.

Unlike that cg trailer videogames still have to solve the geometry problem. Let’s not even talk about the obvious difference in the clothing and hair simulation. The amount of shit animating in that cg trailer on a frame to frame basis compared to current video games, bruh try the next 20 years my man.
Guess you haven’t played the matrix demo.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
What does everyone in this thread (my graphics whore bros) think of all the last gen looking NEXT GEN only games announced at E3 this year?

TLOU remake, Forza 8, Final Fantasy 7-2, FF16 and RE4 remake are all supposedly next gen only but I honestly cant tell the difference between these games and their predecessors. The difference is minimal at best and definitely not the next gen leap we have spent 28 fucking pages discussing in this thread.

It begs the question, why cant these multi million dollar studios with hundreds of employees cant produce next gen graphics like the ones we saw in the UE5 demos and several other independent projects done by 1 person? It cant be the money. It cant be lack of talent. It cant be time. These games are taking forever to make and creating and importing assets in Unreal engine (even in 4) is easier than ever.

Why is this Australia demo made by one guy using his OWN photocaptured assets look better than anything shown by AAA studios?


Why cant they produce photorealistic visuals we saw in this Unreal Engine FOUR trailer in 2019 THREE years ago?


Why is it that Unity is able to create a tech demo with insane looking visuals in this realtime trailer but AAA studios making PS5 games cant even make their games look better than the games they made last gen?


Why is it that a fucking Vin Diesel studio released the best looking realtime trailer at E3?


Forza 8 is no longer chasing photorealistic visuals in a closed circuity racing game even though an open world game with 45,000 cars and 15,000 pedestrians was able to get us this.

 

ChiefDada

Member
SlimySnake SlimySnake I chalk most of it up to extended cross gen period. Insomniac seems to be the most competent AAA studio ready and willing to ditch prior gen. Which leads me to my next statement...

Forza 8 is no longer chasing photorealistic visuals in a closed circuity racing game even though an open world game with 45,000 cars and 15,000 pedestrians was able to get us this.

Spider-man 2 will look better than the Matrix demo.
 

tommib

Member
What does everyone in this thread (my graphics whore bros) think of all the last gen looking NEXT GEN only games announced at E3 this year?

TLOU remake, Forza 8, Final Fantasy 7-2, FF16 and RE4 remake are all supposedly next gen only but I honestly cant tell the difference between these games and their predecessors. The difference is minimal at best and definitely not the next gen leap we have spent 28 fucking pages discussing in this thread.

It begs the question, why cant these multi million dollar studios with hundreds of employees cant produce next gen graphics like the ones we saw in the UE5 demos and several other independent projects done by 1 person? It cant be the money. It cant be lack of talent. It cant be time. These games are taking forever to make and creating and importing assets in Unreal engine (even in 4) is easier than ever.

Why is this Australia demo made by one guy using his OWN photocaptured assets look better than anything shown by AAA studios?


Why cant they produce photorealistic visuals we saw in this Unreal Engine FOUR trailer in 2019 THREE years ago?


Why is it that Unity is able to create a tech demo with insane looking visuals in this realtime trailer but AAA studios making PS5 games cant even make their games look better than the games they made last gen?


Why is it that a fucking Vin Diesel studio released the best looking realtime trailer at E3?


Forza 8 is no longer chasing photorealistic visuals in a closed circuity racing game even though an open world game with 45,000 cars and 15,000 pedestrians was able to get us this.

Tech demos aren’t games. Get over it.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
Tech demos aren’t games. Get over it.
Wrong. We had a long extended discussion on whether or not last gen games looked better than the unreal engine demos and several comparisons were posted where the games looked just as good if not better.

Besides, these tech demos are playable. You can play the magic demo. You can play the Australia demo. They are playing the rebirth demo at 60 fps on a 1080 ti. You are talking about game logic being the reason why games are looking last gen as if game logic is run by the GPU.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
SlimySnake SlimySnake I chalk most of it up to extended cross gen period. Insomniac seems to be the most competent AAA studio ready and willing to ditch prior gen. Which leads me to my next statement...



Spider-man 2 will look better than the Matrix demo.
Spider-Man 2 didn’t look as good as the matrix to me. If anything it looks cross gen now after the matrix demo. Besides, HFW beats out ratchet in visual fidelity when comparing open world, character models and overall fidelity so it’s not like insomniac is that much better either. No one should be getting beat out by cross gen games.

The fact that ratchet runs at 45-55 fps at native 4k after the vrr patch shows just how much raw gpu power insomniac is wasting in ratchet. They could be doing so much more at a lower resolution like 1440p or 4kcb.
 

ChiefDada

Member
Spider-Man 2 didn’t look as good as the matrix to me. If anything it looks cross gen now after the matrix demo.

Lol SM2 trailer showed a midnight sequence, we didn't get to see much of anything.

Besides, HFW beats out ratchet in visual fidelity when comparing open world, character models and overall fidelity so it’s not like insomniac is that much better either.

Nah buddy it's irresponsible to compare the two, ratchet is a cartoonish title by design. Even if I was forced to I would give the fidelity advantage to ratchet. Horizon is the best cross gen game I've ever seen, but something about it still let's me know it's a cross gen game. I don't get that same feeling with Ratchet.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
Lol SM2 trailer showed a midnight sequence, we didn't get to see much of anything.



Nah buddy it's irresponsible to compare the two, ratchet is a cartoonish title by design. Even if I was forced to I would give the fidelity advantage to ratchet. Horizon is the best cross gen game I've ever seen, but something about it still let's me know it's a cross gen game. I don't get that same feeling with Ratchet.
I hope I’m wrong about Spider-Man, but ratchet comparisons hold if you compare the two open world levels. The foliage, level of detail and even lighting quality is not up to par with hfw. They should be obliterating hfw imo.
 

tommib

Member
Spider-Man 2 didn’t look as good as the matrix to me. If anything it looks cross gen now after the matrix demo. Besides, HFW beats out ratchet in visual fidelity when comparing open world, character models and overall fidelity so it’s not like insomniac is that much better either. No one should be getting beat out by cross gen games.

The fact that ratchet runs at 45-55 fps at native 4k after the vrr patch shows just how much raw gpu power insomniac is wasting in ratchet. They could be doing so much more at a lower resolution like 1440p or 4kcb.
Matrix demo runs at 15 fps 1080p with constant stuttering. It’s a fucking mess. Is that your next-gen? You’ll be suffering a lot this generation.
 
Lol SM2 trailer showed a midnight sequence, we didn't get to see much of anything.



Nah buddy it's irresponsible to compare the two, ratchet is a cartoonish title by design. Even if I was forced to I would give the fidelity advantage to ratchet. Horizon is the best cross gen game I've ever seen, but something about it still let's me know it's a cross gen game. I don't get that same feeling with Ratchet.
The lighting is pretty flat in a lot of places... especially indoors. Ratchet has much better lighting.
 

Neilg

Member
It begs the question, why cant these multi million dollar studios with hundreds of employees cant produce next gen graphics like the ones we saw in the UE5 demos and several other independent projects done by 1 person? It cant be the money. It cant be lack of talent. It cant be time. These games are taking forever to make and creating and importing assets in Unreal engine (even in 4) is easier than ever.

do you think the software does all the work for people, and there's no human artistic vision involved in those tech demos? that anyone who learns UE well enough then has the ability to make decisions that produce something that looks as good?

You're taking tech demos put together by the best in the industry and expecting to scale effortlessy across a 20hr+ game - andrew hamilton was one of the best art directors at DICE before he left. the guy who directed the quxel short film doesnt even work in games, he works in advertising. The enemies short film was done by a film director with an assembled team of very talanted freelancers.
Now you're asking that a game that requires 200+ artists to make over 3-5 years have visuals that match - which means you need multiple people this talented as leads. it means every single artist involved has to be working at the top of their game and can keep up with that standard. not even considering the fact that that's frankly impossible to hire for, people that good generally don't like to work on 3yr projects (andrew hamilton excluded, as he is leading the look of arc raiders) - film and advertising work pays better and results in more varied, interesting work to do. and exclusively hiring artists who are used to earning north of 100k/yr starts to make production a little expensive. And then if you do scoop up all the talent in the industry and tell them to work with no limits, make everything look as good as humanely possible, then it a) wont fit on a disc, and b) wont run on a console.

I'm not saying it wont get there - just that looking at a tech demo and acting like a pissy little bitch because your 5yr long hundred million dollar projects dont look as good yet is dumb as fuck. it absolute IS the lack of talent, time, and money, and there a fuckload more that goes into it than 'importing assets into unreal engine', which you seem to think was the big technical hurdle everyone was struggling to cross (it isnt, and wasnt)
 
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And those cross-gens don't even run at 4K60, tells you everything you need to realize how little power there is in those consoles aside from very few unused features. Before cross-gen period is even over a low-end RTX 4050 will be doing circles around PS5/XSX.
The ps5 has over 600+% the performance of the ps4. The question is what the F are dev.s doing. The issue is lack of talent. Nanite already solved geometry for environments, and nanite by itself was said to run at 60+fps at 1440p on ps5. Lumen was the reason the ps5 ue5 demo was limited to 30ish fps, and I think that was before they used h/w acceleration or optimizations either. I'm not sure why matrix performance is lower, might be number of metahuman npcs, as number of objects practically shouldn't matter with nanite.

Nanite like technology is believed possible for animate objects with deformable geometry, but it will still be years before such is developed. Again had there been enough talent, we'd have deformable geometry like nanite like tech by now.
 
What does everyone in this thread (my graphics whore bros) think of all the last gen looking NEXT GEN only games announced at E3 this year?

TLOU remake, Forza 8, Final Fantasy 7-2, FF16 and RE4 remake are all supposedly next gen only but I honestly cant tell the difference between these games and their predecessors. The difference is minimal at best and definitely not the next gen leap we have spent 28 fucking pages discussing in this thread.

It begs the question, why cant these multi million dollar studios with hundreds of employees cant produce next gen graphics like the ones we saw in the UE5 demos and several other independent projects done by 1 person? It cant be the money. It cant be lack of talent. It cant be time. These games are taking forever to make and creating and importing assets in Unreal engine (even in 4) is easier than ever.

Why is this Australia demo made by one guy using his OWN photocaptured assets look better than anything shown by AAA studios?


Why cant they produce photorealistic visuals we saw in this Unreal Engine FOUR trailer in 2019 THREE years ago?


Why is it that Unity is able to create a tech demo with insane looking visuals in this realtime trailer but AAA studios making PS5 games cant even make their games look better than the games they made last gen?


Why is it that a fucking Vin Diesel studio released the best looking realtime trailer at E3?


Forza 8 is no longer chasing photorealistic visuals in a closed circuity racing game even though an open world game with 45,000 cars and 15,000 pedestrians was able to get us this.

Cross gen engines, laziness, greedy companies, they want to make that money from the big install bases from last gen…Only Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart, Horizon Forbidden West, Microsoft Flight Simulator, TLOU II and Remake, Matrix Demo and maybe a few others look a leap over last gen titles…
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
The ps5 has over 600+% the performance of the ps4. The question is what the F are dev.s doing. The issue is lack of talent. Nanite already solved geometry for environments, and nanite by itself was said to run at 60+fps at 1440p on ps5. Lumen was the reason the ps5 ue5 demo was limited to 30ish fps, and I think that was before they used h/w acceleration or optimizations either. I'm not sure why matrix performance is lower, might be number of metahuman npcs, as number of objects practically shouldn't matter with nanite.

Nanite like technology is believed possible for animate objects with deformable geometry, but it will still be years before such is developed. Again had there been enough talent, we'd have deformable geometry like nanite like tech by now.
You dont even need Nanite or UE5 features to make games look better than what we are getting next year. UE4 have had photorealistic environments and lighting on PCs since 2018. Nanite just makes things easier. The Rebirth trailer was playable in early 2019 before the PS5 was even announced on a 1080 Ti. A GPU roughly as powerful as a PS5 in standard rasterization with no ray tracing support.

Some dude on youtube made this all by himself and got it to run on a GTX 970. A 3.5 tflops GPU with just 3.5 GB of VRAM. There hasnt been a single game doing the physics and wind simulations this demo is doing at such a high level of fidelity.


I dont think it's the lack of talent. They are just targeting the wrong specs. These games are likely all targeting the 1.8 Tflops PS4 specs and are using the PS5's 5x more raw GPU tlfops to target native 4k instead. FF7-2 and FF16 asset quality looks virtually identical to games we saw running on PS4. Even Starfield is targeting native 4k on the 12 tflops xsx. That means their 1080p target is likely 3 tflops at best. Same goes for Forza 8. I bet these games started off as cross gen. TLOU remake is 1440p 60 fps like the Uncharted 4 remaster. That means it will have a native 4k 30 fps mode just like U4. Just a gigantic waste of GPU power.

I'm not sure why matrix performance is lower, might be number of metahuman npcs, as number of objects practically shouldn't matter with nanite.
Matrix performance is bad on consoles because of poor CPU optimization. On PCs with higher clock CPUs, it runs just fine. The 13 tflops 6700xt runs it at 45 fps at 1080p. My 3080 runs it at 40-45 fps at native 4k with very few drops to 35 fps. It's threaded poorly and removing traffic and pedestrians improves performance everywhere so it is somehow tied to their traffic/pedestrian simulations. Besides, software lumens looks almost as good and gives almost a 40% boost so I hope they just stick with that instead.
 
Gears 5 looks like CGI.

Why do this? Just why? Why do you people keep doing this shit? That geometry isn't good enough, it's really bad compared to offline rendering, period! I can literally see pixels in those weak ass textures compared to offline. You got characters and objects in the environment glowing because the ambient occlusion is straight ass.

A cgi film released in 1999 wipes the fucking floor with that screenshot..

https://images.static-bluray.com/reviews/18867_16_large.jpg
\

And that's just a photo my man, once Toy Story 2 animates in motion on a frame to frame basis it's in a whole another realm, it's not close.
 
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Lethal01

Member


Final fantasy rebirth trailer seems to have provided a pretty nice comparison between the in engine footage(UE4/5) and the CGI scenes from a couple years a go.



The much better Motion Blur and hair physics of the CGI stand out.
 
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rofif

Gold Member
Holy shit look at this, and this is using the YouTube compression which makes it look worse than how it really looks in real life, yet it still looks phenomenal even with YouTube compression.

what?
Looks like jank indie flip flop asset game
 

jorgejjvr

Member
i havent played a current gen sony 1st party exclusive and thought 'this needs to look better'

like ratchet, returnal, ff7, miles, horizon, lou2, im good. i mean if it looks even better from here great, but games are fire already

but i also worry about diminishing returns, if looking better means going back to 30 fps as the norm, then nope plz. Although I do expect a 60 fps option in the majority of games nowadays
 
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Lethal01

Member
i havent played a current gen sony 1st party exclusive and thought 'this needs to look better'

like ratchet, returnal, ff7, miles, horizon, lou2, im good. i mean if it looks even better from here great, but games are fire already

but i also worry about diminishing returns, if looking better means going back to 30 fps as the norm, then nope plz. Although I do expect a 60 fps option in the majority of games nowadays

Realtime graphics looks like trash compared to prerendered stuff from even the shortest glance and we are nowhere close to being good enough to worry about the diminishing returns of how much better things will look from improving lighting just a bit.

But yeah, improving lighting just a bit takes strong hardware, I'd rather we actually get to something decent graphically before we start aiming for 60fps. IF vreators want to go for 60fps then they should be forced to make stylized games so it's not obvious how unrealistic their "photorealistic" games are.
 
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Sosokrates

Gold Member
What does everyone in this thread (my graphics whore bros) think of all the last gen looking NEXT GEN only games announced at E3 this year?

TLOU remake, Forza 8, Final Fantasy 7-2, FF16 and RE4 remake are all supposedly next gen only but I honestly cant tell the difference between these games and their predecessors. The difference is minimal at best and definitely not the next gen leap we have spent 28 fucking pages discussing in this thread.

It begs the question, why cant these multi million dollar studios with hundreds of employees cant produce next gen graphics like the ones we saw in the UE5 demos and several other independent projects done by 1 person? It cant be the money. It cant be lack of talent. It cant be time. These games are taking forever to make and creating and importing assets in Unreal engine (even in 4) is easier than ever.

Why is this Australia demo made by one guy using his OWN photocaptured assets look better than anything shown by AAA studios?


Why cant they produce photorealistic visuals we saw in this Unreal Engine FOUR trailer in 2019 THREE years ago?


Why is it that Unity is able to create a tech demo with insane looking visuals in this realtime trailer but AAA studios making PS5 games cant even make their games look better than the games they made last gen?


Why is it that a fucking Vin Diesel studio released the best looking realtime trailer at E3?


Forza 8 is no longer chasing photorealistic visuals in a closed circuity racing game even though an open world game with 45,000 cars and 15,000 pedestrians was able to get us this.


Forza 8 has several improvements visually over the best looking racing simulation last gen.
The quixel rebirth tech is actually what is similar to the nanite tech used in UE5 (I heard a quixel engineer had the same ideas as the unreal engineers in reguards to improving polycounts, and that is what nanite is)
Also remember that rebirth demo looks so good because its using lots of cinematic angles. Current gen can do visuals like that.

I think your issue is that your expectations were higher then what is possible on these machines. This is not your fault though because judging by previous gens one would expect a similer leap, I did too.

But ive come to accept that we wont have visuals like this character shading and particles in gamplay. We will get close though. Im sure naughty dog and ninja theory, colaition, sucker punch will have some character models which look really close in the right lighting, but in sunlight im sure they will still be inferior.


In this demo, I think environments will be as good or even better(nanite seems superior to what unity was using for this), but I dont think there will be this level of particles (the black spaghetti coming from his bird friend). I think we will get character models as good in dimley lit indoor environments, but when I look at his face the shaders have a look that seperate it from say a meta human model, but I dont know quite what it is. Its probably a combination of sub surface scattering, very high textures, very high geomentry and multiple light bounces on the face itself.
I dont think this gen will be able to do particles as good as the white spaghetti at the end. But maybe i will be surprised.
 
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Consoles now are just budget gaming PCs sold at cost. There is no proprietary Cell or Emotion engine for developers to figure out and optimize.
Yeah, that's because Sony created a convoluted/proprietary CPU architecture for the PS3 that no developer outside of Sony first-party studios had time to figure out. You may get amazing looking games at the end of the generation like The Last of Us, but for 90% of the generation the people who bought your console will have the decidedly worst version of every 3rd party game. That's not a trade-off worth having for most people.
 

Sosokrates

Gold Member
Yeah, that's because Sony created a convoluted/proprietary CPU architecture for the PS3 that no developer outside of Sony first-party studios had time to figure out. You may get amazing looking games at the end of the generation like The Last of Us, but for 90% of the generation the people who bought your console will have the decidedly worst version of every 3rd party game. That's not a trade-off worth having for most people.

I think the TLOU looks so good (for the time) more because of ND's talent rather then the cell.
 
Why do this? Just why? Why do you people keep doing this shit? That geometry isn't good enough, it's really bad compared to offline rendering, period! I can literally see pixels in those weak ass textures compared to offline. You got characters and objects in the environment glowing because the ambient occlusion is straight ass.

A cgi film released in 1999 wipes the fucking floor with that screenshot..

https://images.static-bluray.com/reviews/18867_16_large.jpg
\

And that's just a photo my man, once Toy Story 2 animates in motion on a frame to frame basis it's in a whole another realm, it's not close.
I can see individual pores on the Gears of War 5 character's face. The same can't be said for the big fella on the couch from Toy Story 2.
 

ChiefDada

Member
But yeah, improving lighting just a bit takes strong hardware, I'd rather we actually get to something decent graphically before we start aiming for 60fps. IF vreators want to go for 60fps then they should be forced to make stylized games so it's not obvious how unrealistic their "photorealistic" games are.

Lighting/Ray tracing is arguably more of a memory issue than a computation/power problem. It's just apparently the industry was complacent in continuing down the path of memory inefficiency and throwing more processing power at the problem. The consoles, PS5 in particular will be able to implement Metro exodus level RTGI and beyond with UE5 like dense geometry and textures ONCE 1st party engines are optimized. Bookmark if you wish.
 

Sosokrates

Gold Member
If that were the case, the first 3 Uncharted games would look fairly comparable to TLoU. It's obvious Naughty Dog slowly over the years was learning to tap into the power of the Cell processor until finally squeezing everything out of it by 2013.


vs

Yes, no doubt NDs tech improved and they learned to better use the cell. But I dont think the results were only possible on the cell or ps3 in general.
Ive never understood why people use exclusives as testament to hardwares power, because with them being exclusives theres no way to know they would not be just as good on other herdware.
 
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