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[SlimySnake]

The problem isnt more choice.

No one would have had an issue with Sony if their first party came out and showed 8 games if there of them were GAAS and the other 5 were what we actually bought a PlayStation for. The problem is that they came and showed like 3/4 first-party games and all but one was a GAAS-type game.

And why is that really fucked up? Its that the almost 40M people that have bought a PS5 to date.... did not buy it for GAAS. This show was catered to a market that hasn't yet bought a PS5. Of course, those that have would be upset.

I have been ringing alarm bells on this ever since Jim told investors to expect 12, yes TWELVE first party GaaS games between 2023 and 2025. Thats 4 per year.

I was repeatedly told that they would not come at the expense of their first party output. Well, seeing as how we got one single player game this conference and FIVE first party GaaS games, we can safely say that they did come at the expense of their first party output.

Just a day before the showcase, Sony said their GaaS games will take up 60% of their first party budget. I read it mentioned secondhand here so correct me if Im wrong on what that 60% figure implies. If true, we are not even 50-50 anymore.

Another problem is just what these gaas games are. They are not killzone, socom, resistance, and other IPs we love. They are complete fortnite clones, absolute filth that no one here wants to play. Even Marathon looked like a fortnite clone. They start the show off with a CG redfall/fortnite clone then show helldivers looking generic Outriders as fuck then show two more CG trailers from Firewalk and Bungie. They dont even have faith in their gaas games to show us actual footage. Likely scared off by Suicide Squad's awful reception.

P.S this got buried in the Days Gone director thread, but he said that 90 people from that studio have left since shipping Days Gone. That studio was a 100-120 person studio max. that means 90% of the talent has left. No wonder we havent seen anything from them in 4 years, they have no one working there. Sony is secretive about the state of their studios but how do we know that their gaas focus hasnt caused most single player devs to leave from other studios as well. It honestly doesnt make sense that studios with 2.5-5 years of dev time under their built would be no shows.

 

[midnightAI]

What do you think Factions is?

Are their single player games being affected by it? (We don't know the answer to this, but they have already released Last of Us Part 1 on PS5, and they have multiple teams within Naughty Dog)

If suddenly Insomniac, Bend, SSM, Sucker Punch etc. all had GAAS games in development instead of making single player games then I'd be worried, but so far that isn't the case and probably never will be so pointless worrying about it.

 

[GymWolf]

I'm yet to be convinced that this is sufficient enough time for any of those studios to be ready to ship another game, especially since most of them kept working to expand their latest games or got sidelined with other minor projects.

They are well enough to have a vertical slice to show.

Not everyone is rockstar that need 9 years for a game, sony games are usually made in 3-5 years, so 3 years or close to that is well enough to have a vertical slice, even a 5 min one just to hype people.

All their past ps4 games had vertical slices years before release.

Nobody is asking the moon here, we are just asking what sony gave to us for many, many years during their events.

 

[DeepEnigma]

What do you think Factions is?

Tell us, what is it?

Cause at this moment, none of us know shit about it, at all.

As frustrating as that is right now, that's real talk.

 

[Ozriel]

Tell us, what is it?

Cause at this moment, none of us know shit about it, at all.

As frustrating as that is right now, that's real talk.

We know it’s an online multiplayer game, from Naughty Dog. The first Factions was a GaaS game. This will build on that, and is claimed to be much more ambitious.

 

[DeepEnigma]

We know it’s an online multiplayer game, from Naughty Dog. The first Factions was a GaaS game. This will build on that, and is claimed to be much more ambitious.

First game was not a "GaaS" game. The first one was your run of the mill traditional online multiplayer that has added MTX. Like most back in the day. It was not your GaaS model of constant updates every 3 months.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I'm not defending them, I'm saying they aren't affecting single player output. Show me evidence that Sony's first party studios that are well renowned for their cinematic single player games are affected by their GAAS push? (The only one I can think of is Studio London, even then we don't know if they have other plans besides their GAAS game)

I already did. The very existence of them. All those resources, the manpower, the time and energy to make them could have gone to other SP experiences. That objectively affects other studios. Those are resources that could be used by them.

 

[ProtoByte]

There is, how on earth is 60% of resources on GaaS not impacting their more expensive than ever single player games? Those games theoretically lost 60% of their budget.

Vick, you know better than this. The graph has been explained countless times over.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I have been ringing alarm bells on this ever since Jim told investors to expect 12, yes TWELVE first party GaaS games between 2023 and 2025. Thats 4 per year.

I was repeatedly told that they would not come at the expense of their first party output. Well, seeing as how we got one single player game this conference and FIVE first party GaaS games, we can safely say that they did come at the expense of their first party output.

Just a day before the showcase, Sony said their GaaS games will take up 60% of their first party budget. I read it mentioned secondhand here so correct me if Im wrong on what that 60% figure implies. If true, we are not even 50-50 anymore.

Another problem is just what these gaas games are. They are not killzone, socom, resistance, and other IPs we love. They are complete fortnite clones, absolute filth that no one here wants to play. Even Marathon looked like a fortnite clone. They start the show off with a CG redfall/fortnite clone then show helldivers looking generic Outriders as fuck then show two more CG trailers from Firewalk and Bungie. They dont even have faith in their gaas games to show us actual footage. Likely scared off by Suicide Squad's awful reception.

P.S this got buried in the Days Gone director thread, but he said that 90 people from that studio have left since shipping Days Gone. That studio was a 100-120 person studio max. that means 90% of the talent has left. No wonder we havent seen anything from them in 4 years, they have no one working there. Sony is secretive about the state of their studios but how do we know that their gaas focus hasnt caused most single player devs to leave from other studios as well. It honestly doesnt make sense that studios with 2.5-5 years of dev time under their built would be no shows.

Couldn't agree with you more.

And what's disturbing to me is this. I don't have a problem with them doing GAAS, I mean they bought Bungie... I would have expected Bungie to have at least one or two GAAS games. And ok Firewalk... a third. that's enough for something that you only need one to succeed. But 12???? What the fuck do they need 12 for? And we know Factions 2 is going to be another one.

It's almost as if Sony are just sitting and scheming on how best to fuck themselves over.

 

[Chiggs]

I've been sidelined all week with a project at work, but I finally watched the Showcase and, wow, was it bad.

From the terrible opening, which featured some Redfall-looking trash, to the underwhelming finale with Spiderman 2...I was left stunned in the worst possible way.

I realize there's some truth to the thread created by DeepEnigma , but I can't shake the feeling that something just isn't right.

 

[Ozriel]

First game was not a "GaaS" game. The first one was your run of the mill traditional online multiplayer that has added MTX. Like most back in the day. It was not your GaaS model of constant updates every 3 months.

Games as a Service just means games that are monetized post release.
TLOU MP had paid DLC packs and post launch content updates, including map packs in 2013 and 2014.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Games as a Service just means games that are monetized post release.
TLOU MP had paid DLC packs and post launch content updates, including map packs in 2013 and 2014.

You are splitting hairs here and you know it.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Games as a Service just means games that are monetized post release.
TLOU MP had paid DLC packs and post launch content updates, including map packs in 2013 and 2014.

GAAS does not mean Games that are Monetized post release.

GAAS means games that are designed to be unfinished and slowly gain content over years and years, if they are *successful*, and if they are not - devs/publishers can pull the cord on the project and lose minimal investment. Sea of Thieves, Halo Infinite, GT7, Avengers, Nintendo Sports, Mario Soccer, etc. All GAAS. All far worse than they would be if they were just made like games used to be made.

 

[ProtoByte]

Couldn't agree with you more.

And what's disturbing to me is this. I don't have a problem with them doing GAAS, I mean they bought Bungie... I would have expected Bungie to have at least one or two GAAS games. And ok Firewalk... a third. that's enough for something that you only need one to succeed. But 12???? What the fuck do they need 12 for? And we know Factions 2 is going to be another one.

It's almost as if Sony are just sitting and scheming on how best to fuck themselves over.

They need 12 because they understand that most of their efforts will fail.
The live service field is not easy to maintain yourself in and not easy to predict. There's no preempting the issue of constant and persistent development in parallel to people playing the game, sometimes there's no way to convince enough of a userbase to play the game irrespective of quality. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong branding, wrong PR statement, wrong economy change, wrong update, whatever. 10 different things can go wrong, and they have a high probability to do so, and sink the games prospects.

By the end of this generation, I expect Sony and others in the industry to be very disappointed in the level of success they'll get for these games, and mostly reverse course. That's what's happened to publishers even like EA, to some extent.

I can only direct so much irritation towards PlayStation over this. Expecting them not to take a heavy handed attempt here at some point was naive at best. Consumers have themselves to blame for putting the likes of Fortnite, Destiny, Apex, Warzone, GTA Online and a score of others on the financial pedestal for years of end, and for expressly asking PlayStation to provide in the multiplayer space when it's clearly not the lane they're suited for, or what their audience wants.

 

[Roman Empire]

The show showed the bare minimum. I only cared for Dragon's Dogma 2, Alan Wake 2, Helldivers 2, Phantom Blade 0 (which I'm still skeptical about being real gameplay), and Spiderman. And from all those that I listed only Spiderman was an exclusive... Shit was rough. I don't give a fuck about CGI trailers from Haven or Bungie.

 

[Ozriel]

GAAS does not mean Games that are Monetized post release.

GAAS means games that are designed to be unfinished and slowly gain content over years and years, if they are *successful*, and if they are not - devs/publishers can pull the cord on the project and lose minimal investment. Sea of Thieves, Halo Infinite, GT7, Avengers, Nintendo Sports, Mario Soccer, etc. All GAAS. All far worse than they would be if they were just made like games used to be made.

I didn’t make that definition up

Games as a service - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[DeepEnigma]

GAAS does not mean Games that are Monetized post release.

GAAS means games that are designed to be unfinished and slowly gain content over years and years, if they are *successful*, and if they are not - devs/publishers can pull the cord on the project and lose minimal investment. Sea of Thieves, Halo Infinite, GT7, Avengers, Nintendo Sports, Mario Soccer, etc. All GAAS. All far worse than they would be if they were just made like games used to be made.

GaaS can still be a finished game as well. Well in Sony's current GaaS models, such as GT7 which was a complete game and only getting better and better with new cars, race menus, scapes and tracks like a gift that keeps on giving without spending a single dime, and MLB The Show with the Diamond Dynasty mode where you never have to play and all the core single player (Season, Franchise, Road to the Show, etc) or online modes access is there as well.

But old school multiplayer games with a few skin, gun, or map packs were not the 'GaaS' model. Just a traditional MTX model.

 

[OCASM]

I'm hoping comments like these look like insanity in a couple of weeks.

It's obvious even the "perfectly" managed playstation studios have struggled with covid and moving to current gen.

Theyve basically had a great road map of ps4 games they've been able to spruce up to fill some gaps for ps5.

I am really hoping that in two weeks we get to see Microsoft struggled with the last 18 months in terms of triple A but have gotten through the worst of it and we will now see their true current gen offerings coming to the table that will release over the next 18 months.

Thanks to Sony we have also had the technical expectation of these consoles set with the recent ffxvi and spider man 2 demos. I expect microsofts games to be on par with spider man 2 technically. That's what I'm hoping for anyway.

Would be great to see some true unreal engine 5 games like gears to blow us away.

The launch window titles being cross-gen was decided before covid was a thing.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I didn’t make that definition up

Games as a service - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yes, and Factions did not have a "continuing revenue model," they received several finite MTX add-ons post release like most multiplayer games at the time and that was it. It was never designed to be "continuing," otherwise they would still be offering them ala Fortnite or PUBG since the Factions servers are still up and running till this day.

 

[Dr. Claus]

GaaS can still be a finished game as well. Well in Sony's current GaaS models, such as GT7 which was a complete game and only getting better and better with new cars, race menus, scapes and tracks like a gift that keeps on giving without spending a single dime, and MLB The Show with the Diamond Dynasty mode where you never have to play and all the core single player (Season, Franchise, Road to the Show, etc) or online modes access is there as well.

But old school multiplayer games with a few skin, gun, or map packs were not the 'GaaS' model. Just a traditional MTX model.

GT7 was *not* a complete game. It lacked major features, was missing half of its Menus that were datamined to already exist, and numerous cars that were already finished in the game's files only to be piecemealed to players via updates. Same goes for titles like Splatoon 1-3. If the game *was* finished, then they clearly cut out content to slowly release to players. Unacceptable.

A finished game with occasional updates isn't GAAS. It is just a game with patches/expansions/dlc. As you said, a traditional MTX/DLC model.

 

[DeepEnigma]

GT7 was *not* a complete game. It lacked major features, was missing half of its Menus that were datamined to already exist, and numerous cars that were already finished in the game's files only to be piecemealed to players via updates. Same goes for titles like Splatoon 1-3. If the game *was* finished, then they clearly cut out content to slowly release to players. Unacceptable.

A finished game with occasional updates isn't GAAS. It is just a game with patches/expansions/dlc. As you said, a traditional MTX/DLC model.

Yes, it was set up for GaaS from the get-go, but it was far more of a complete game than 99% of GaaS out there. In fact, if it never received more updates, it had all the proper features that a complete game would have. You had all the menus to the credit roll (30+), over 400 cars, thousands and thousands of scapes, and over 35 different tracks, etc., etc..

It had more than most non GaaS racing games. Just because we knew it was set up as a GaaS model, does not make it any less feature complete at launch. All modes were available at launch, from online to sport, to time trials, to events, etc, etc..

It's just getting better and better each month since launch. It was not barebones like most other GaaS, a skeleton if you will.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Yes, it was set up for GaaS from the get-go, but it was far more of a complete game than 99% of GaaS out there. In fact, if it never received more updates, it had all the proper features that a complete game would have. You had all the menus to the credit roll (30+), over 400 cars, thousands and thousands of scapes, and over 35 different tracks, etc., etc..

It had more than most non GaaS racing games. Just because we knew it was set up as a GaaS model, does not make it any less feature complete at launch. All modes were available at launch, from online to sport, to time trials, to events, etc, etc..

It's just getting better and better each month since launch. It was not barebones like most other GaaS, a skeleton if you will.

I just can't agree. It is still a farcry from the PS2 days with GT4 and GT3. It is only marginally better to me compared to GT5 and 6. Being "better than other GAAS" doesn't make it great/good IMO. It needs to be better than the best in its franchise. Which it failed to do for me.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I just can't agree. It is still a farcry from the PS2 days with GT4 and GT3. It is only marginally better to me compared to GT5 and 6. Being "better than other GAAS" doesn't make it great/good IMO. It needs to be better than the best in its franchise. Which it failed to do for me.

I think it's the best racing model (physics and gameplay) they have done. The QoL excels with this game, getting in and out of races in mere seconds feels fantastic.

 

[Aenima]

GT7 was *not* a complete game. It lacked major features, was missing half of its Menus that were datamined to already exist, and numerous cars that were already finished in the game's files only to be piecemealed to players via updates. Same goes for titles like Splatoon 1-3. If the game *was* finished, then they clearly cut out content to slowly release to players. Unacceptable.

A finished game with occasional updates isn't GAAS. It is just a game with patches/expansions/dlc. As you said, a traditional MTX/DLC model.

If GT7 was an incomplete game at launch, then almost all racers out there are Alpha builds.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Everyone telling us, don't worry about the fact Jim Ryan doesn't play games and is just a suit.

Well guess what.... These are some executive ass moves that inspire zero confidence in fans. Where's the psvr2 games? That looks dead in the water.

Shu never let it get this bad out here. Herman's gotta up his game. You ain't at guerrilla anymore

 

[FBeeEye]

I wouldn't be surprised if many of you make up those responses. There are a lot of console war fanboys on there. They don't care about game, they just want to beat Xbox.

 

[Ronin_7]

Everyone telling us, don't worry about the fact Jim Ryan doesn't play games and is just a suit.

Well guess what.... These are some executive ass moves that inspire zero confidence in fans. Where's the psvr2 games? That looks dead in the water.

Shu never let it get this bad out here. Herman's gotta up his game. You ain't at guerrilla anymore

The games are being made and coming out.

 

[Lunarorbit]

The games are being made and coming out.

Yup. But spending up to 60% of your single player budget on gaas is dumb. Not showing us shit was hella dumb. Just cause they making games doesn't mean they will be worthwhile

 

[Ronin_7]

Yup. But spending up to 60% of your single player budget on gaas is dumb. Not showing us shit was hella dumb. Just cause they making games doesn't mean they will be worthwhile

Agreed but so far the games have been great.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Agreed but so far the games have been great.

I think having too many shooters in the gaas space is gonna be bad for Sony.

 

[Killer8]

I went back to the September 2022 State of Play to make sure my memory did not deceive me - this was somehow a better show crammed into one third of the time frame.

Tekken 8 was revealed.
A couple of PSVR2 games shown.
Yakuza Ishin remake revealed (*and released within 6 months).
Synduality revealed, new robot game from Namco.
Rise of the Ronin from the makers of Nioh - PS5 exclusive.
'PlayStation Stars' loyalty program revealed.
Stellar Blade trailer, for your Asian vaporware representation.
Only one indie game shown, Pacific Drive.
Some exclusive Hogfarts DLC for people who care.
Epic God of War Ragnarok trailer to cap it off.

Very lean and productive event. Meaningful announcements, pretty much everything shown was gameplay, not an online service game in sight, and the major exclusive (God of War) left more of an impact than the Spider-Man 2 showing.

It's evident that the not-E3 Showcase didn't have much more than this and had to pad out the runtime with CGI trailers and indie games.

September 2022 State of Play was also a Japanese focused event due to the timing coinciding with the Tokyo Game Show, so I guess it's also evident that Japan is the only thing keeping this wretched hobby afloat.

 

[FBeeEye]

I'm trying to picture Hermen Hulst walking around Playstation Studios with his tiny thin project folder with Spider Man 2 & Wolverine written next to 1 of 19 Studio's for the last 2 years.

AAA games take time to make.

 

[Aenima]

Yup. But spending up to 60% of your single player budget on gaas is dumb. Not showing us shit was hella dumb. Just cause they making games doesn't mean they will be worthwhile

They are not spending 60% of single player budget on gaas. They are actually increasing the budget spent on single player games for 2025. They are just investing alot of money on gaming (That otherwise they would not be investing if not for the gaas push) where the total investment comes with 60% being made on gaas.

 

[FBeeEye]

The best take I've seen so far explaining the root cause of many people's frustration with PS right now.

You got Spiderman Miles Morales at launch, you got Dark Souls at launch, you got Ratchet and Clank, Spiderman remastered, Horizon Forbidden West and an expansion. You got God of War Ragnarok. All of this in a span of 2 years when Xbox basically had jack and squat.

You guys sound like spoiled brats. Xbox owners would kill for that output. Microsoft made the decision to ditch cross gen and we saw the result. Now Sony's in their transition and it's going to take time for these new projects to come to fruition. It will take time for these games to get to a state where they can be seen. Have patience.

 

[StueyDuck]

Losers being losers?

Honestly I'm not sure what's more sad. Being the loser being this affected by a single showcase or the loser who scoured all of Twitter to be king of the losers and make a loser collage

Fuck gamers are embarrassing

 

[TGO]

You guys sound like spoiled brats

Expecting the Platform holder to announce something for their 3 year old console after 2 years of Deathloop specials = spoiled brats
But the stuff they announced at the Playstation Meeting 2020 has been released so everything is okay....

And some people was expecting a 5 year life cycle
No matter what you say or think, it's a joke and they're lucky MS are in the worse shape

 

[Ronin_7]

I think having too many shooters in the gaas space is gonna be bad for Sony.

It really depends on the quality but once again agreed.

 

[cormack12]

I think it's good were getting half finished games. When I read reviews now I know it's likely the journo may have completed most of it.

 

[ProtoByte]

Everyone telling us, don't worry about the fact Jim Ryan doesn't play games and is just a suit.

Well guess what.... These are some executive ass moves that inspire zero confidence in fans. Where's the psvr2 games? That looks dead in the water.

Shu never let it get this bad out here. Herman's gotta up his game. You ain't at guerrilla anymore

Whoever makes it to the CEO position is going to be a suit. The thing is that the best suits know that they're suits, have a holistic picture of their trade, and surround themselves with less suit-y people.

Eventually, I think people will recognize that the real "problem" as it pertains to live services is Hulst. I remember Jaffe mentioning that he doesn't know Hulst personally, but has been told before that he's very political.