HFW is proof that 30fps needs to die.

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bitbydeath

Gold Member
Grand Theft Auto is one of the biggest game franchises ever created, made famous on PlayStation and it dipped well into the teens.

If they tried to make it 60FPS then it wouldn’t have accomplished everything it set out to do and it would have looked absolutely terrible in the process.

It probably wouldn’t even be around today. Now think what new game designs devs could come up with @30FPS on today’s hardware.

Frame-rate isn’t everything, having power to design complex systems is more important.
 

Hunnybun

Banned
If it weren't for Unreal 5 then I'd say that 60fps would definitely become the standard, or at least there'll always be performance modes. But unreal 5 is such a big leap that it seems likely to become the standard. And the early signs are that the consoles will struggle to run those titles at 60fps.

So, I'm torn. I think the popular idea that the standard must *automatically* revert to 30fps because developers will always target the maximum fidelity is misguided and simplistic. But in this particular case it might prove correct, because the leap is so big and doesn't seem very scalable.

This is why pro consoles are so necessary this generation.
 

Hunnybun

Banned
1440 @ 40 fps ala Ratchet/Spiderman MM is a very good balance: 60 fps can be hard to achieve in these graphically demanding AAA titles, which have a "mandate" to showcase the capabilities of the machine; and 4k is, imo, a waste of resources in most cases.

Those games are 4k @ 40fps, aren't they?

Insomniac literally said that vast majority prefers performance mode.

Did they? That's great news.
 

Hunnybun

Banned
High frame rates make you feel like what youre seeing looks better. The graphical difference in 30 and 60fps modes in demons souls is so insignificant when you realise how much better everything looks when you can actually see it in motion. That game is stunning in 60fps.

Yep. Personally I always choose 60fps over "graphics", but only ever because of how it looks. I don't play to an exacting standard or anything, so response times are unimportant to me. I just genuinely love how 60fps games look in motion.

30fps often looks like a joke in comparison.
 

TrueLegend

Member
Grand Theft Auto is one of the biggest game franchises ever created, made famous on PlayStation and it dipped well into the teens.

If they tried to make it 60FPS then it wouldn’t have accomplished everything it set out to do and it would have looked absolutely terrible in the process.

It probably wouldn’t even be around today. Now think what new game designs devs could come up with @30FPS on today’s hardware.

Frame-rate isn’t everything, having power to design complex systems is more important.
The enormous library of PS2 title disagrees with you.
 

Hunnybun

Banned
But higher graphical fidelity by targeting 30fps is clear as day in trailers so obviously Devs will focus on that.

Is it? On YouTube, compressed to hell? Or even worse, Twitter?

And on a 6" phone screen, which is how most people probably see this stuff?

60fps displays perfectly well on YouTube, otoh. 4k certainly does not.

So is it really so obvious that a "4k" 30fps YouTube video looks so much more impressive than a 60fps 1440p one?
 

RPSleon

Member
Yep. Personally I always choose 60fps over "graphics", but only ever because of how it looks. I don't play to an exacting standard or anything, so response times are unimportant to me. I just genuinely love how 60fps games look in motion.

30fps often looks like a joke in comparison.
The only time ive taken the frame rate down is if the game actually looks bad because of it. Tried fortnite at 120fps and distant buildings looked awful. Went back to 60.
 

Chastten

Member
Out of the 10 million people or so who buy a game like Horizon, only maybe 500k or something give a rats ass about FPS and stuff like that.

The rest is happy playing it at 30ish FPS on their sub $600 Walmart TV.
 

Hunnybun

Banned
The only time ive taken the frame rate down is if the game actually looks bad because of it. Tried fortnite at 120fps and distant buildings looked awful. Went back to 60.

I have to admit I can't tell the difference between 60 and 120. It genuinely seems to be invisible to me.

40fps is pretty good and certainly a decent compromise for me.

But yeah, visuals are important to me so I refused to buy HFW because of the dodgy performance mode. Just waiting on the 40fps mode now.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
In 2009 back on PS3.............
So? Was 30fps less problematic then? 30fps in HFW is no worse now than 30fps in HZD in 2017 or Driveclub in 2015 or in Uncharted in 2007 or in Wipeout in 1995, etc. There has always been people saying 30fps is enough or that they can’t see the difference. Meanwhile the rest of us has always been there frowning since way back in the 80s.
Devs really just choose who they want to listen to based on what type of fidelity they want for their game. And fans will defend whatever choice they take. I’d say that fans like 60fps more now because there is a choice to play in 60fps now.
 
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ZywyPL

Banned
30fps is only shit when you've experienced the same or a similar game at 60fps

Nah, 30FPS is shit regardless, it only works thanks to motion blur, plus then added natural blur of LCD displays on top of that, but just playing on OLED makes it unbearable, and god forbid if you dare to disable the in-game motion blur.

Sure, your brain will eventually adjust and you'll be fine as long as you don't experience anything other, we've been watching 24p TV for decades after all before BFI became a thing, but isn't the whole idea of newer and never generations to be better, to progress, to advance, instead of staying in the same spot forever, or going backwards?
 

Clear

Member
If you insist on 60+ fps this console gen, then don't whine about the upstep in visual quality being smaller than you'd like!

Its no more difficult to target 60 than 30, just there will inevitably have to be sacrifices made elsewhere to stay in budget.
 

FUBARx89

Member
I played through HFW in 30fps quality mode 🤷‍♂️ platinumed it that way too. Something about performance mode looked off to me.
 

01011001

Gold Member
So I have been reading comments in the recent fromsoftware article of eurogamer digital foundry and some dumbass said that most people prefer quality over performance version to which my response was what a fucking deluded guy. If anything recent patch of HFW highlights that 30fps needs to go.

To please 1 percent of retards like some kind of minority that require protection, is an absurd take on the whole game development process and creates a myriad of issues of which graphical fidelity is the tip of the iceberg. The whole thing is that this fetish of multiple modes need to stop and developers should focus on one 60 fps mode from start for modern consoles. Later they can add 30,40fps mode if they want but focusing on 60fps from start gives us games like gears 5 which is setup from start for 60fps. No more cloths physics, flying character like bugs once you make 60fps baseline.

If Guerilla focused on 60fps mode from start HFW would have been a better release on technical standpoint. And then for these 1% retards for which I am of strong opinion that their wishes should not be entertained we can have 4k30 fps mode for sake of future preservation. But there is no point in affecting the present experience for future preservation. Also now that PS5 has VRR there is absolutely no need for 30fps to exist, 40fps should be new standard for 4k because nearly all 2.1 hdmi port display support 120hz output. TLDR: Fuck 30fps.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't have worded it as strongly lol
 

ParaSeoul

Member
So? Was 30fps less problematic then? 30fps in HFW is no worse now than 30fps in HZD in 2017 or Driveclub in 2015 or in Uncharted in 2007 or in Wipeout in 1995, etc. There has always been people saying 30fps is enough or that they can’t see the difference. Meanwhile the rest of us has always been there frowning since way back in the 80s.
Devs really just choose who they want to listen to based on what type of fidelity they want for their game. And fans will defend whatever choice they take. I’d say that fans like 60fps more now because there is a choice to play in 60fps now.
Things change.
Especially since they've given their three PS5 titles higher frame rate modes and even made a statement saying they're going to continue that.
 
Grand Theft Auto is one of the biggest game franchises ever created, made famous on PlayStation and it dipped well into the teens.

If they tried to make it 60FPS then it wouldn’t have accomplished everything it set out to do and it would have looked absolutely terrible in the process.

It probably wouldn’t even be around today. Now think what new game designs devs could come up with @30FPS on today’s hardware.

Frame-rate isn’t everything, having power to design complex systems is more important.
Things have changed, imagine the cost of producing a game that can truly only run on a PS5/SSX at 30fps/1440p and that is able to justify that choice.
 
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So I have been reading comments in the recent fromsoftware article of eurogamer digital foundry and some dumbass said that most people prefer quality over performance version to which my response was what a fucking deluded guy. If anything recent patch of HFW highlights that 30fps needs to go.

To please 1 percent of retards like some kind of minority that require protection, is an absurd take on the whole game development process and creates a myriad of issues of which graphical fidelity is the tip of the iceberg. The whole thing is that this fetish of multiple modes need to stop and developers should focus on one 60 fps mode from start for modern consoles. Later they can add 30,40fps mode if they want but focusing on 60fps from start gives us games like gears 5 which is setup from start for 60fps. No more cloths physics, flying character like bugs once you make 60fps baseline.

If Guerilla focused on 60fps mode from start HFW would have been a better release on technical standpoint. And then for these 1% retards for which I am of strong opinion that their wishes should not be entertained we can have 4k30 fps mode for sake of future preservation. But there is no point in affecting the present experience for future preservation. Also now that PS5 has VRR there is absolutely no need for 30fps to exist, 40fps should be new standard for 4k because nearly all 2.1 hdmi port display support 120hz output. TLDR: Fuck 30fps.
They couldn't because of the PS4 version.
 

yamaci17

Member
60 is easy for cross-gen. Now once games start REALLY taking advantage of the new hardware (the CPUs in particular, which we haven't really seen pushed at all yet), maybe not as easy. Of course it's all about priorities, but some people here seem to believe that the dev can always simply choose 60 if they want to, but in some cases that might not be true. In general, GPU stuff is easy to scale, CPU stuff not so much.
yup. and "console magic" is not a real thing, it maybe was with jaguar cpus somehow, but it does not seem to apply to new "zen 2" cpus found on consoles, considering it exactly behaves like my 2700x on games (case in point, it probably has to do with shitty Zen architecture that fails to properly scale with frequency. so having a whopping 3.6-3.7 ghz frequency does not even matter that much. going from 1.8 ghz to 3.6 ghz only yields %60-65 performance on this weird architecture. even pushing from 4 ghz to 4.2 ghz only yields %1-2 perf. increase for a whopping %30 electric consumption with a theoritical uplift of %5. its really saddening)

ps5 drops the exact same frames as much as a 2700x in jig jig town in cyberpunk. (45s-50s when running in the town). an expected performance drop, considering its an underclocked zen 2 CPU on consoles with only 8 mb cache. its going to be tough, even a 3700x cannot warrant a perfect 60 fps lock in many crossgen games unless you seriously reduce draw distance + CPU bound settings. even then, its a challenge. i did a lot of tests in other games, ps5 / xbox sx cpus behaves exactly like a 2700x on desktop. unless they unlock a "magical" thing that gets more out of that CPU marginally, stuff will be hard nextgen.

5600x is already %55-60 faster than the CPU found on consoles, 1 generation later, console equivalent CPUs will be found on tablets, considering zen 4 should easily push %100-130 above zen 2 8 m mb cache + 3.6 ghz found on consoles. the whole "tablet CPU limits things :(" talk will return lol. zen 2 3.6 ghz + 8 mb cache will most likely be included in a tablet oneday.

i think bigger problem or the challenge is the multithreading. on paper, 8 cores 16 threads seem like a beast, but in reality, i3 12100f absolutely destroys and decimates the 8/16 3700x even in games most people accept as "highly multihreaded".

wish consoles were delayed, got 6/12 zen 3 CPUs + complimentary ARM cpu to help with background tasks. 8 mb cache and zen 2 to me feels too low end and it will haunt and bite back the console developers at one point, just like how it happened with Jaguars

at best rate: it will not limit game development but some devs may only provide 30 fps modes (heavily CPU demanding ue5 titles, maybe)
at worst rate: some devs will simply not limit the development and instead make limitations around the CPU for 60 fps mode, causing most of the things to stay "current gen"
 
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Nah..rather 4k 30 fps with ray tracing. Still able to beat games on hard at 30 fps ( i beat elden ring on quality mode) guess if you cant then opt for the easy 60 fps and whine online how 30 fps is ruining games.
 
I've not played a single game in 30 FPS this console cycle, and I couldn't be happier. It looks like absolute trash (even with the dinky version of discount ray tracing everyone is so fond of) and anyone that disagrees is wrong.

This is the hill I choose to die on.
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
Things change.
Especially since they've given their three PS5 titles higher frame rate modes and even made a statement saying they're going to continue that.
Well it’s good that they’ve changed their stance of course. I just don’t think it has anything to do with data but rather that they can reach the fidelity they want at 60fps now and don’t need to fabricate any excuses to go lower.
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Mostly choose 60fps over 30fps, but calling anyone liking 30fps over 60fps modes retards then I think you need to take a step back there. Before you know it, someone would say 24fps movies should die and we should only see movies in 60fps.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
I played it with 30 fps on quality mode no problems. I don't get this whole 30 vs 60 fps disscusion.
Depends on the display, on OLEDs there's noticeable stutter, on LCDs less so (Samsung has game motion plus to lower 30 fps stutter even more).
 

Thirty7ven

Sony make cringe trainers.
So I have been reading comments in the recent fromsoftware article of eurogamer digital foundry and some dumbass said that most people prefer quality over performance version to which my response was what a fucking deluded guy. If anything recent patch of HFW highlights that 30fps needs to go.

To please 1 percent of retards like some kind of minority that require protection, is an absurd take on the whole game development process and creates a myriad of issues of which graphical fidelity is the tip of the iceberg. The whole thing is that this fetish of multiple modes need to stop and developers should focus on one 60 fps mode from start for modern consoles. Later they can add 30,40fps mode if they want but focusing on 60fps from start gives us games like gears 5 which is setup from start for 60fps. No more cloths physics, flying character like bugs once you make 60fps baseline.

If Guerilla focused on 60fps mode from start HFW would have been a better release on technical standpoint. And then for these 1% retards for which I am of strong opinion that their wishes should not be entertained we can have 4k30 fps mode for sake of future preservation. But there is no point in affecting the present experience for future preservation. Also now that PS5 has VRR there is absolutely no need for 30fps to exist, 40fps should be new standard for 4k because nearly all 2.1 hdmi port display support 120hz output. TLDR: Fuck 30fps.

What a retarded take.
 

Swift_Star

Banned
I failed to find a reasonable argument in this thread. What are your points? You said a lot, yet you said nothing at all.
Devs should do whatever they want to. You can buy a high end pc and have the games look and feel how you want them to.
 

recursive

Member
Out of the 10 million people or so who buy a game like Horizon, only maybe 500k or something give a rats ass about FPS and stuff like that.

The rest is happy playing it at 30ish FPS on their sub $600 Walmart TV.
Receipts? I guess I hand out rat asses.
 
I wonder....when people start playing at 60fps said: "oh 30 fps is shit, I can barely play, my brain hurts". Then they start playing at 120 fps and said the same thing of 60 fps"

I think is a phenomenon called being a fucking asshole, superiority complex and first world problems much.

So annoying.
 

yamaci17

Member
I wonder....when people start playing at 60fps said: "oh 30 fps is shit, I can barely play, my brain hurts". Then they start playing at 120 fps and said the same thing of 60 fps"

I think is a phenomenon called being a fucking asshole, superiority complex and first world problems much.

So annoying.

im an avid 120 fps enjoyer. for FPS games yes, 60 fps is un returnable for me

for tps games however, i can easily go back to 60 fps, and 40/30 fps even. for tps games like ac games, god of war etc. 60 to 120 really seems like a minor upgrade. for me personally however, 120 is a must for FPS games. it just becomes something else, probably has to do with direct eye involvement with the camera
 
im an avid 120 fps enjoyer. for FPS games yes, 60 fps is un returnable for me

for tps games however, i can easily go back to 60 fps, and 40/30 fps even. for tps games like ac games, god of war etc. 60 to 120 really seems like a minor upgrade. for me personally however, 120 is a must for FPS games. it just becomes something else, probably has to do with direct eye involvement with the camera
Because this is the thing.....The brain adapts. Not a big deal.

But some people create this drama just for the sake of "I play at 120 people I play at 120!!!!!! blah blah blah"

Is cringe when Digital Foundry people make these kind of statements.
 

TrueLegend

Member
I failed to find a reasonable argument in this thread. What are your points? You said a lot, yet you said nothing at all.
Devs should do whatever they want to. You can buy a high end pc and have the games look and feel how you want them to.
I have a PC. How am I supposed to play HFW on it?
 

Duchess

Member
Heh. After years of saying that 30fps is fine, I now can't go back to it after enjoying everything at 60 on PS5 :)
 
Fuck 30fps.
catch me outside GIF
 

yamaci17

Member
Wait a few years. Also, why are you calling people that favor fidelity over perfomance retards?
i honestly don't believe that games like hfw/ragnarok will land on PC in 2-3 years. it was probably one time deal to showcase their games on PC so that they can draw people to playstation (which, based on the small inquiry made on my 6 friends that played both games on PC, they say that they'd never get a ps5 for ragnarok or fw)

they will probaby land on pc 5-6 years later, when ps6 is about to launch, just like ps4 to ps5
 
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Rippa

Member
What a moronic statement.

Hey OP, I’m glad you don’t make the decision on giving us console peasants the OPTION to choose how we play.

Looks like you’ll just have to wait for your precious PC versions of games to play on your ELITE level. 🙄
 

iamvin22

Industry Verified
I mean the world doesnt revolve around you

the exact way you feel, there is as many people who feel same way for quality modes in games.

learn to accept other points of view, you will be less angry
I started looking at things this way about 7 Years ago and I am a better person because of it. So glad you posted this.
 
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