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"House of the Dragon" FULL SHOW AND BOOK SPOILER thread!

jason10mm

Member


"Meats back on the menu, boys!!!" Oops, wrong reference.

Anyway, House of the Dragon is back on HBOmax and is doing that archaic weekly drop thing that allows us to have a FULL SPOILER thread without people at various stages of binging causing problems. The show drops EVERY SUNDAY at 9 PM EASTERN, so we can have a proper thread to discuss IN FULL, anything that has been released on HBOmax as well as the source material, George R.R. Martin's "World of Ice and Fire" faux history book, the "The Princess and the Queen, or the Blacks and the Greens" novella in the Dangerous Women anthology from 2013 or so, and the "Fire & Blood" book from 2018, which I believe reprints or expands on what is already in WIF and DW. Anything pulled from ASOIAF is also fair game.


Any show discussion about a released episode or speculation based on the books or "next on..." promos does NOT need to be spoilered. Any discussion of an upcoming episode based on your uncles brothers sisters cousin who had a beer next to a props guy who once passed the set of HotD SHOULD BE IN A SPOILER!

If you have NOT read the books and DO NOT want to know what might be happening in the show, DO NOT read this thread!!! I'll say though, that I do not think that just knowing who dies in what battle from the books will mean much because those books were written as a faux history, with several "accounts" for many major events, so the show has a lot of latitude to change things up. But you will find out who is likely to sleep with who and the broad strokes from the books, so be warned.

Here is a family tree to keep it all explained. This is from Afaq Hussain but I got it off pintrest, so apologies if I can't credit the work properly. Anyway, it is one of the more legible and current ones that accounts for the increased detail about lesser family members. I've outlined King Visery's in green and "X"ed out his cousin/wife, Queen Aemma. I'll try to keep it updated, which I think is gonna get hard, and if I can find better ones that maybe don't have as much downstream stuff. Plus I'm sure the show will change some names to avoid confusion, probably even delete some of the lesser kids. Definitely a work in progress :p

 
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jason10mm

Member
All right, maybe we can have a proper water cooler discussion of the show without the need for spoilers and all that. I've read the relevant parts of World of Ice and Fire and the novella in DW, which mostly recounts the later "Dance of Dragons" war. I've got Fire and Blood on order.

So far the show seems fairly close to the book, other than the age issues, understandable as they seem to want to play up the Rhaenrya/Alicent relationship (WIF suggests she was sleeping with old king Jaehaerys!) and made them closer in age. Poor Princess Rhaena and King Viserys seem perpetually locked into middle/old age as they both should have been in their 20's at the start and early thirties during the tourney. Life is hard in Westeros apparently :p

I'm curious how quickly we will jump to an older Rhaenrya to fill in all the stuff between her heir apparent announcement and the actual start of the war. They gotta spend some time on it, I'm sure, but seems to me that all the meat is once Viserys dies and we have, potentially, 24 years or so of time till then and I know they are gonna want to show Daemon's battles, the marriages of Rhaenrya to Laenor and Daemon to Laena, so I don't expect Viserys to die till maybe the send of the season. I'm curious why they are making him seem so feeble now with the infected wound and all, maybe he dies earlier before Rhaenrya and Alicent can have as many kids?
 

AlteredForms

Gold Member
We have fantasy shows coming out the ass now and ironically it's large in part due to Game of Thrones. House of the Dragon, Wheel of Time, LOTR: The Rings of Power, The Witcher and I'm sure there will be many more to come...
 

jason10mm

Member
So I got "Fire and Blood" and while it is basically an expanded version of the first half or so of WoI&F, it is surprisingly readable and interesting. So if you think it's gonna read like the Silmarillion or something and just be a dry text, give it a shot. GRRM manages to inject his style in there quite a bit. It's supposed to be just "Part 1" though, I'm sure George is HARD at work on part 2...right??

I've noticed the show is pulling stuff in but mixing it up. The timeline for ep1 is a bit different from the books, in 101 King Jaehaerys convenes the Council to decide on the succession and in the show Princess Aemma is pregnant (with Rhaenrya) but in the book it is Princess Rhaenys pregnant with what she HOPES is a male heir to secure her succession as Queen. Then the show jumps to 110 for the death of the Queen in labor while in the book that happened in 105. I suppose they are trying to get more out of that child Rhaenrya actress and have her cover all of Rhaenrys youth and adolescence in a shorter period of the show.

The "I don't want more kids" line was attributed to a prior Queen as well, I forget which one, but not Aemma. So it's cool to see how the show tries to bring as many GRRMisms as possible even if they don't quite match up. I'm VERY curious if we will see a dwarf court jester character as one of the main "contributors" to this history is Mushroom. He supposedly is privvy to lots of guarded conversations by virtue of being seen as an idiot so he is necessary to the book, but I'm not sure we will see him in the show as he will just be a silly version of Tyrion.
 

jason10mm

Member
Some interesting divergences in eo2.

Book Rhaenrya picked Cole for the Kingsguard because she though he was charming and attractive, not due to any canny tactical plan. I'm guess they will still have her throw herself at him though. I did like how she schooled Daemon and called his petulant bluff. Not sure what Otto and his merry band thought they were gonna do.

Book Daemon DID get Mysaria pregnant, present her with the egg, and get the King mad at him. Her loss of the baby on the trip back to Lys is what REALLY drove Daemon against Viserys. I guess they don't want to tip his hand too early in the show.

I feel like Show Laenra, depicted as a meek child instead of the firey spirit in the book, is to differentiate her from Rhaenrya and prop up Alicent, who gets short shafted a bit in the show. Having Viserys seem like a broken old man at this time, instead of a 30 year old in the prime of life, also adds a creeper element to the entire remarry thing when they keep throwing kids at this guy.

Not sure where they are going with the horror-masked Craghas Crabfeeder. Is he suffering from greyscale and wears that mask to hide from it? Just a way to dehumanize him so his inevitable death in battle is a universal "good thing"? Hard to tell the way they show him. I expect the stepstones will get resolved next ep, maybe it'll get dragged out 2 at most.

All in all, a pretty solid ep. I REALLY gotta stop watching the producers pontificate on their "themes" though, they seem, or are at least edited to seem, quite contradictory.
 

jason10mm

Member
Guess there aren't a lot of book readers here interested in contrasting the books versus the show. But I'm interested in the differences and the possible narrative changes they cause.

I just found out that Milly Alcock is TWENTY-TWO! Now I'm very curious what they did to make her seem so young early on. Mess with her height and make-up, do a little CGI on her face, or just bank on her being very slim and acting? Either way, it was well done. Though if she is 17 in ep3 that would have put her at 14 in ep2 and already 13ish in ep1 so maybe not as much of a stretch, I had been assuming she was supposed to be 10-12 in the pilot. Then we can back track to her being borne in 101 (assuming Aemma was pregnant with her during the Council, not one of the stillborns) and "9 years of Viserys rule" would mean Jaehaerys lived for 4 more years, dying in 105 instead of 103 and the show 'starting' in 114 instead of 105 with the birth (followed by the death of Baelon and Queen Aemma). That makes Rhaenerya a bit younger than in the book since she was born there in 97, so now they are running out of time to hit the 129-131 era for the Dance of the Dragons. Guess they are just gonna fudge the dates?

They seem to be setting up Laenor as a fighter, instead of the....well...we know what he was in the book, so I'm curious if he will get cucked in as obvious a manner. They name dropped Ser Harwin Strong but didn't show him IIRC, nor does Rhaenrya seem to have much romantic affection towards Cristan Cole (in fact, she seems almost entirely asexual, a far cry from her book actions), so maybe that whole thing will get dropped. Makes sense as brown hair would be the least of the tip offs from that relationship. But all that stuff was the juicy bits, cutting it would significantly dull the show I think. Still, I just don't see how they manage another 15+ year time jump to allow for Aegon to grow up enough to have kids of his own so we get the fantastic Blood and Cheese scene, which MUST be in the show and still show Rhaenyra with Laenor and then move to Daemon.

I kinda assumed this season would end with Viserys death and some sort of "Who is gonna rule?!?" cliffhanger. Might still do that, but they are already making Viserys seem so old and feeble, how is he gonna make it another 20 years? I guess they need to differentiate his party boisterousness from Robert Baratheon in GoT and set him up as a lesser successor to what Rhaenys MIGHT have been, though I feel that if that was the intent, they are not doing the best job. Rhaenys needs more scenes doing the kind of stuff they are giving to Corlys or they need to bring up more of Jaehaerys' accomplishments with the roads and building Kings Landing to show how little Viserys gets done in comparison.

Anyway, TL:DR, right? Anyone else got thoughts? Maybe it is just too hard to compare these two experiences this early on.
 

jason10mm

Member
So, ep4 is accelerating things nicely. Interesting that they are making Alicent so passive about supporting her own childrens right to rule. At this point in the book, when Rhaenyra and Daemon have their "incident", Alicent was more proactive. The infamous "greens and blacks" party takes place after dismissing Otto but before Daemon returns to court from the Step Stones so they are messing with that timeline a bit.

We FINALLY get Rhaenrya as she is in the book, a more aggressive (sexually at least) woman. The Cole relationship in the show seems more one of opportunity versus a long burning flame (on Rhaenyra's part, at least) so I'm curious if he will spurn her (he must, right?) or confess love for her and be spurned in return. I suspect he will fawn over her in the show and she will reject him, that seems to be the kind of "girl power" writing we are seeing for her. The show runners thought Daemon coming on to her was "a form of abuse" but they TOTALLY overlook the OUTRIGHT SEXUAL ASSAULT of a woman forcing a man who works for her, and whom she could put to death on a whim, into bed, so it is what it is :p

We finally get Harwin "Breakbones" Strong as well. Not sure how well he can cuck Laenor as the infidelity will be VERY OBVIOUS at this point, but who can say.

Did I see Mushroom in the promo for next week????

There is no mention of drama at Rhaenrya and Laenor's wedding, so I'm guessing the "Blacks and greens" divide will occur there.

I saw Alicent with a baby, looks like a girl, so I'm assuming it was Helaena with Aemon and Daeron still to come.
 

jason10mm

Member
The way the book is written, it has several versions, 'collected' centuries later from folks writing about it. A frequent "source" are septons but there is also a jester character named Mushroom who created a book full of very raunchy stories of his time as a targeryen jester.

So there are several versions of the event of Daemon being exiled from court. One theory is he had sex with Rhaenyra, either because they liked each other or because she wanted "experience" in order to seduce Cristian Cole.
 

jason10mm

Member
For those curious, in F&B Ser Cole is rumored to have made his plea for Rhaenyra to run away with him...in one account. Another (from our unseen Mushroom) is that SHE threw herself at him (using pleasure arts learnt from Daemon) and he rebuked her. The books imply this was a single encounter, on the show we have a bedding and Cole's proposition later. This is when Harwin Strong comes in and sweeps Rhaenyra off her feet and supplants Cole (now Commander of the Kingsguard) in her affections.

The wedding of Rhaenyra and Laenor goes on for the full 7 days, Rhaenyra gives her favor to Harwin, Laenor gives one to Joffrey. Cole, now working for Alicent, beats Joffrey to death in tourney and injures Harwin pretty severely. Alicent wearing green (versus Rhaenyra in black) happened at an earlier tournament. So the crude events still occur, just a very different context for Cole killing Joffrey, seems he was more mad at Rhgaenyra and just wanted to hurt her in any way possible.

Lady Royce does fall and crack her head, but she lived for 9 days and actually could get out of bed, then suddenly dies. So seems very unlikely that Daemon or some agent killed her (as he was off at the Stepstones at the time, maybe he ordered her killed when it is clear she would survive). He loses his bid to get the Runestones as well. In an act of desperation, he asks for Laena's hand, but first has to call out her betrothed (some rando Braavosi) and kills him in a duel.

As it stands, the players are in place. If they open ep6 with the 10 year jump, we are going to miss Daemon and Laena's world dragon tour and their kids, Rhaenyra and her three "not Laenor" kids, and two more kids from Alicent (since it seems like she is still caring for Helaena). Cole will likely be the Commander of the Kingsguard (in the show, Ser Harrold is still alive at the wedding), Harwin will be "guarding" Rhaenyra, and Laenor will have a new boy toy. It's probably going to open on the conflict between Alicent and Rhaenyra's kids at the funeral of Laena, dead in childbirth with Daemons third child and only son (stillborn).
 

jason10mm

Member
I've also been listening to the HBO podcast for "House of the Dragon" which is fairly informative. One thing that does stand out as a potential MAJOR change to ASOIAF is the idea that Aegon the Conqueror had a "vision" that drove him to take Westeros and try to make it as hard a target for "evil from the North" as possible. Viserys is clearly making decisions based on this and the implication form the showrunner, talking with GRRM, is that ALL the kings, perhaps Maegor excepted, have acted to fulfill that prophecy. Wouldn't surprise me to have this pop up with Daenerys in the next book.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Thanks for making this thread. I am going to picture you as Jason Lannister in my head now.

Man this episode. The writers are delving deep on these characters that weren't really fleshed out much in the book. Up to this moment many readers assumed Larys Strong had a more prescient role but I don't think anyone was expecting him to be Little Finger turned up to eleven with a splash of Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes thrown in. And Criston Cole is forming nicely into the bastard he was from the book.

Good times. This show has so exceeded my expectations it's wild.
 

jason10mm

Member
Yeah, they are REALLY working the source material. I'll try to post a summary today.

But one thing that is REALLY ticking me off is that we are never really getting a playful irty musty side of Rhaenyra. How did she really feel about Cole, a man she sexyally .assaulted? What about Strong, a man she was never shown speaking with but now has had 3 kids with? Why him and why for so long, especially given how obvious the infedelity is?

I feel the alicent actresses, with far less book material, get more emotional range and a better motivation.
 

jason10mm

Member
All right, ep6 has a LOT going on. We have caught up with older characters, though we are still a few years off from the Dance with the Dragons since it doesn't look like Alicent and Viserys have had Daeron yet (maybe that won't happen since he should be as old as Jace), I'm guessing Aegon/Helaena will happen though, and Rhaenyra/Daemon with their kids as well. I'm still guessing the end of the season is Viserys death.

So after the death of Ser Joffrey, Laenor does hook up with a Ser Quarl Correy. Mushroom, always the perv, says those two AND Rhaenyra shared a bed at times (kinda like the Renly/Loras/Margarey threeway in GoT) but it seemed likely they did have sex a few times. The cuckholding was FAR more subtle, with the three kids having "brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose" but obviously the total lack of skin pigmentation wasn't an issue.

They overlook Daemon dueling and killing Laenas betrothed, but they did do the tour of Essos (or get to Pentos as least). No hint how Viserys feels about this though. His daughters by Laena are twins in the book, not sure how obvious that is in the show (they look to be a little different in age to me). They head back to Driftmark, not staying in Pentos though. This causes us to miss out on any Rhaenyra/Laena relationship and the betrothal of her two sons to Laena's two daughters,

I LOVED the depiction of Laena, wish we had more of her. For a show supposedly focused on women being just as able as men, they give short shrift to all the great woman characters in this story, IMHO. Anyhoo, she does give birth to a "twisted and malformed" son who promptly dies. Laena spends some days in bed and TRIES to get to Vhagar, but dies on the way, so the show at least ennobles her death. Rhaenyra was there and comforts Daemon.

The fire at Harrenhall does happen, taking Lord Lyonel and Ser Harwin with it. Numerous causes were put forth, from natural, the curse of that dread place, Corlys Velaryon getting vengence on the man who cuckholded his son, Daemon to make way for a move on Rhaenyra (this fire occurs later in the year after Laena's death), and Larys Strong to take over the family seat. Another is the King ordered it to clear his daughters name and set her straight. This last is possible because Lyonel wasn't supposed to accompany his son so his death was possibly by chance and the true target was Harwin alone.

In the absence of Lyonel, the book says Viserys considers making Rhaenyra hand, but decides against it because she has, for some time now, been at Dragonstone and there are some events between the kids that make this untenable. Here it seems likely Alicent will drive the decision to bring Otto back.

The timeline is pretty jacked up at this point betwix book and show. All of this to date is up to 120 AC, with Rhaenyra still just 23, Viserys 43, etc. But now we have a much older Rhaenyra and Viserys literally clawing at deaths door. So we will likely need another 5 years or so for the Aegon/Helaena matchup can produce at least 2 kids and Rhaenyra/Daemon can have their 2. In the book Rhaenyra gives birth to Daemons first son IN THE SAME YEAR as Laenas and Laenors deaths, so either they started knocking boots IMMEDIATELY, Targaryens gestate for a few months less than normies, or a year is a bit longer on Westeros :p
 
I had tried to read Fire and Blood before but I couldn't handle it, to me it was so inferior to ASoIaF and Tales of Dunk and Egg.

Now after watching the series it was pretty enjoyable to listen to the dance related chapters, it doesn't even spoiled much because you get multiple version of events and it makes the wait for new episodes/season easier to handle.

I think the Laena death change for the series was terrible, she actually has a pretty beutiful death in the books, where she just wanted to ride her dragon one last time and it makes Vhagar changing sides hurt even more.

It also seems like the series is going out of their way to make Alicent even more unlikable and white washing Rhaenyra. Book Rhaenyra sucks so much and I say that as someone who would support the Blacks.
 
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jason10mm

Member
Agree, the show helps liven up the text. It's easy to lose track of the cast and then it's just lists of "Ser XXX killed Ser YYYY to take over Castle ZZZZ". But I love how the show pulls out those little GRRM nuggets like Laenor getting mocked by Alicent to "try harder to get a kid that looks like you". It's not totally dry history.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
I had tried to read Fire and Blood before but I couldn't handle it, to me it was so inferior to ASoIaF and Tales of Dunk and Egg.

Now after watching the series it was pretty enjoyable to listen to the dance related chapters, it doesn't even spoiled much because you get multiple version of events and it makes the wait for new episodes/season easier to handle.

I think the Laena death change for the series was terrible, she actually has a pretty beutiful death in the books, where she just wanted to ride her dragon one last time and it makes Vhagar changing sides hurt even more.

It also seems like the series is going out of their way to make Alicent even more unlikable and white washing Rhaenyra. Book Rhaenyra sucks so much and I say that as someone who would support the Blacks.

I never finished in its entirety. I read a few chapters, got bored, jumped forward to where I knew the show would take place, read that, and then skimmed through the rest focusing on characters I thought would be interesting.

My favorite change was how they turned the tables on the Cole and Rhaenyra relationship. It gets wonky because they had to finagle with the order of events and timeline a bit, but I thought it was a good decision because it gives more reasoning as to why Cole grows cold and dishonorable. In the book he just kind of reads like a one-note villain at times.

I wish they had included Mushroom, but I guess they didn't want to have a little person in the role of a jester given today's politics and all. Could have been a bad look. But you can feel his influence in the writing, IMO, given the way they seem to be going with his more salacious takes on events.
 

jason10mm

Member
Yeah, I feel like if this show was made just a few years earlier we would have gotten the "full mushroom" with all the three ways, orgies, and a lot more Daemon grooming Rhaenyra. As it is, they turned the "lust" dial down quite a bit.

They could have done a bit more to play with the idea this is a retrospective telling of history as well. More attempts to show that it's the WRITING DOWN of stuff that determines what folks will remember, having the same few folks always lingering on the background as witnesses, stuff like that. Hell, they could have even had a narrator or cut to "modern" historians maesters discussing events.

Take Cole killing Joffrey at the feast for example. They could have said they went ahead and had the tourney the next day and got some Mook to wear his armor, his family crest, and keep his visor down, then have Cole knock him over and tell everyone that was how Joffrey died. Obviously the Velaryons and Targaryens would know the truth, as well as a dozen helpers, but the "official story" would then match the book.

Or the show could spend more time on Why Viserys keeps Rhaenyra his heir despite now having lots of sons. I feel like the show wants that conflict but is afraid to really explore it from Viserys' POV.
 

jason10mm

Member
All right, all right, all right, we are officially off to the races! The Year of the Red Spring is in full swing! go team green!

We are again kinda collapsing events. After Laena's funeral (no mention of that cool stone(? weighted wood?) sarcophagus burial at sea...well, shore anyway, Laenor is killed by Qarl in a MUCH more public way, whilst at a fair in Spicetown and in full view of numerous witnesses. Ser Qarl does vanish without a trace. I'm ambivalent about the change. I'll have to watch the ep again because I'm not sure how they know it is supposed to be Laenor in the fire, by the boots? Did he leave hair around? Seems logistically very difficult but as a poetic bookend for the choice Rhaenyra DIDN'T make with Cole I'll allow it. Within the context of Fire and Blood being a restrospective history book this kind of stuff is permissible, Ser Corlys even explicitly calls it out with the "they only remember names" line.

F&B says Laenor tried to dump Qarl for a 16 yo boy, or Daemon arranged it then killed Qarl at sea. The truth was never known.

So it is at LAENOR'S funeral that Aemon takes Vhagar. The twin girls were not present, but Joffrey tried to stop Aemon before he rode, he and his brothers were awaiting him when Aemon landed. I liked the show version with Baela(?) upset that she got usurped and Aemon, starting his villain path early, mocks her (rightly so?). Then he is jumped by 4, even if younger or female, with at least one knife so I think his response pretty justified. Aemon now has lost an eye in book and show (and from the preview of next ep, wears it VERY well).

In the book we do get a proclamation by Viserys that any word of Rhaenyra's boys being Strongs will end with tongues cut, though there is no recorded direct fight between Alicent and Rhaenyra. It's worth noting Harwin Strong was still alive in the book but dies in a fire later with Otto being reappointed as hand. Daemon as the mastermind moving pieces seems a stronger theory in the book, Rhaenyra having more agency in her own path fits the show I 'spose.

So, we then get R+D, a move that ENTHUSED my wife to NO ENDS, almost a little shocking to me :p She will bear two sons for Daemon, clearly Targaryen boys. First is Aegon, the second Viserys. F&B suggests this wedding was rushed because Rhaenyra was already pregnant from a post funeral hook up with Daemon.

Looks like we get yet another time jump so I expect we will see both boys by then. Curiously, the Aemon actor is replaced with a guy with a GIANT CHIN, he looks shocking like a relative of Matt Smith. There is another man there, possibly Aegon but maybe Daeron? No hint so far of Viserys third son and the teen Aegon actor looks nothing like this preview guy, so I'm hoping that is Daeron. Helaena is spooky as shit, I wonder if they are making her flighty and prophetic as a reason why she contributes so little to the upcoming war versus being a grieving mother. Hope not, that scene will BREAK the internet when they get to it.
 

jason10mm

Member
Finally getting into the meat of this story, when the Greens show up those pesky Blacks :p

We jump ahead a bit to allow for the birth of Rhaenyra and Daemons two boys, Aegon (the Younger, to avoid confusion with his....uncle? Aegon the Elder the oldest sone of Alicent and King Viserys) and Viserys II. She is now pregnant with her sixth child, Daemons fifth, their third together (I see taking away the internet and TV helps in the bedroom!) at the start of the show.

What we do NOT see is any evidence of young Daeron, the third son of Alicent and Viserys, nor any indication that Helaena has given birth to the twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, or the younger son Maelor. Aegon the Elder lives up to his book rep as a womanizer (well, probably far too kind a word) however by assaulting a chambermaid. So I'm guessing, barring another time jump (which seems unlikely) we will never see Daeron at all, the Blood and Cheese scene was deemed too graphic even for HBO GoT, and a lot of the kids stuff will get dumped. Aegon the Younger and Viserys will stay far too young to be involved in the later battles.

The Sea Snake does fall ill, but from fever in Driftmark, not a battle wound. Vaemond, his nephew in the book, not a brother, does contest passing the titles to Lucerys. Rhaenyra orders DAemon to behead him and then the body is fed to her dragon, Syrax. It's Vaemond's relatives that flee to King's Landing, protest to the king, mention the Strong Bastards, and are summarily de-tongued in response. Viserys is wounded by the Iron Throne in this meeting, takes ill, and Rhaenyra comes to his bedside. Here is where he loses two fingers, something that happened DECADES earlier in the show, in fact he has lost most of an arm, an eye, and more at this point in the show.

There is a feast of all the family, Viserys makes them swap colors in fact. Aemond does make that FANTASTIC toast once His Grace left, calling out the "strong sons", Jace does dance with Helaena (or at least asks her to), and Rhaenyra and family depart on the morn.

Viserys holds on for 2 more years after this feast with some debate over Maester (which I can never keep straight on the show). Viserys is more distant during this time, more like what is show at the beginning of the episode. Interestingly, we never even get a HINT of Lord Beesbury's, Master of Coin, wife, who was the smart one in the relationship. ANOTHER organic strong woman character dumped in the show.

I'm also surprised that they have Rhaenyra peddling her kids so freely with ZERO concern for their welfare, opinion, or desires. Daemons twins have ZERO agency or barely any lines. Kinda surprising since Rhaenyra herself was rather vocal about being 'sold off' as a bride yet now she sits on the other side of that table and has no internal understanding of doing it to her own kids. Kinda like how Baela said the dragon Vaghar "is mine from my mother", as if a sentient creature can be OWNED. Little bits like that really undermine the message IMHO.

Still, Viserys' passes at last, in what will surely be an Emmy winning performance. In the book Viserys does tell a tale of Aegon the Conqueror to Helaenas kids just before passing peacefully in his sleep at 52, king for exactly half of his life. This prophecy stuff is new to the show, curious how much of it will later drive the actions of "The Mad King" and others, or how Rhaenyra will in any way pass it down to Aegon the Younger the toddler.

Very curious about the last two eps. Seems like Corlys will reappear. There may be enough time from the King's death to open warfare that some more kids can be born. We have MANY more characters to introduce or reintroduce since the struggle between the Blacks and Greens spreads so far and wide. I feel like the show is really boxing in Alicent as having to choice. There has been ZERO mention of what to do with Aegon the Elder, Aemon, or Helaena. Would one of them get Dragonstone (I'm assuming Rhaenyra would want to pass that to Aegon the Younger, Joffrey, or even Viserys)? Are they just gonna all head back to Hightower land? Given they are all dragon riders this is exactly what Targaryens AVOID, as that would create a potential second hub of dragonriders across Westeros. Rhaenyra seems to give no shits about these older, and in Aemons case, FAR more capable, men versus her own. I do like how Aegon the Elder is totally directionless and lost through no real fault of his own.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Finally getting into the meat of this story, when the Greens show up those pesky Blacks :p

We jump ahead a bit to allow for the birth of Rhaenyra and Daemons two boys, Aegon (the Younger, to avoid confusion with his....uncle? Aegon the Elder the oldest sone of Alicent and King Viserys) and Viserys II. She is now pregnant with her sixth child, Daemons fifth, their third together (I see taking away the internet and TV helps in the bedroom!) at the start of the show.

What we do NOT see is any evidence of young Daeron, the third son of Alicent and Viserys, nor any indication that Helaena has given birth to the twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, or the younger son Maelor. Aegon the Elder lives up to his book rep as a womanizer (well, probably far too kind a word) however by assaulting a chambermaid. So I'm guessing, barring another time jump (which seems unlikely) we will never see Daeron at all, the Blood and Cheese scene was deemed too graphic even for HBO GoT, and a lot of the kids stuff will get dumped. Aegon the Younger and Viserys will stay far too young to be involved in the later battles.

The Sea Snake does fall ill, but from fever in Driftmark, not a battle wound. Vaemond, his nephew in the book, not a brother, does contest passing the titles to Lucerys. Rhaenyra orders DAemon to behead him and then the body is fed to her dragon, Syrax. It's Vaemond's relatives that flee to King's Landing, protest to the king, mention the Strong Bastards, and are summarily de-tongued in response. Viserys is wounded by the Iron Throne in this meeting, takes ill, and Rhaenyra comes to his bedside. Here is where he loses two fingers, something that happened DECADES earlier in the show, in fact he has lost most of an arm, an eye, and more at this point in the show.

There is a feast of all the family, Viserys makes them swap colors in fact. Aemond does make that FANTASTIC toast once His Grace left, calling out the "strong sons", Jace does dance with Helaena (or at least asks her to), and Rhaenyra and family depart on the morn.

Viserys holds on for 2 more years after this feast with some debate over Maester (which I can never keep straight on the show). Viserys is more distant during this time, more like what is show at the beginning of the episode. Interestingly, we never even get a HINT of Lord Beesbury's, Master of Coin, wife, who was the smart one in the relationship. ANOTHER organic strong woman character dumped in the show.

I'm also surprised that they have Rhaenyra peddling her kids so freely with ZERO concern for their welfare, opinion, or desires. Daemons twins have ZERO agency or barely any lines. Kinda surprising since Rhaenyra herself was rather vocal about being 'sold off' as a bride yet now she sits on the other side of that table and has no internal understanding of doing it to her own kids. Kinda like how Baela said the dragon Vaghar "is mine from my mother", as if a sentient creature can be OWNED. Little bits like that really undermine the message IMHO.

Still, Viserys' passes at last, in what will surely be an Emmy winning performance. In the book Viserys does tell a tale of Aegon the Conqueror to Helaenas kids just before passing peacefully in his sleep at 52, king for exactly half of his life. This prophecy stuff is new to the show, curious how much of it will later drive the actions of "The Mad King" and others, or how Rhaenyra will in any way pass it down to Aegon the Younger the toddler.

Very curious about the last two eps. Seems like Corlys will reappear. There may be enough time from the King's death to open warfare that some more kids can be born. We have MANY more characters to introduce or reintroduce since the struggle between the Blacks and Greens spreads so far and wide. I feel like the show is really boxing in Alicent as having to choice. There has been ZERO mention of what to do with Aegon the Elder, Aemon, or Helaena. Would one of them get Dragonstone (I'm assuming Rhaenyra would want to pass that to Aegon the Younger, Joffrey, or even Viserys)? Are they just gonna all head back to Hightower land? Given they are all dragon riders this is exactly what Targaryens AVOID, as that would create a potential second hub of dragonriders across Westeros. Rhaenyra seems to give no shits about these older, and in Aemons case, FAR more capable, men versus her own. I do like how Aegon the Elder is totally directionless and lost through no real fault of his own.
Helaena did give birth. During the scene where Alicent is chastising Aegon for raping the servant she comes in and asks where the servant is because she is supposed to dress the children.
 

jason10mm

Member
Helaena did give birth. During the scene where Alicent is chastising Aegon for raping the servant she comes in and asks where the servant is because she is supposed to dress the children.
Ahh, sweet, missed that brief offhand line. Musta thought the maid was referring to Alicent's kids, not Helaena's. Joffrey was absent from this ep as well, IIRC, so perhaps we will see more kids next ep. IIRC Daeron was sent off to Old Town to squire for Hightower so it's also possible he will just pop up one day as they have set that up as a thing with Baela at Driftmark.
 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
The dragons seem bigger than ever, the African American aspect shows the evolution of the show, there’s a lot of aggressive politics, but I still don’t feel the threat of the targaryens.
 

jason10mm

Member
The dragons seem bigger than ever, the African American aspect shows the evolution of the show, there’s a lot of aggressive politics, but I still don’t feel the threat of the targaryens.
Threat of the Targaryens to whom? True, the Dorne conflicts are minimized, but Dorne was mostly subdued prior to the show and will get properly conquered (or united, depnding on your POV) later on. We do see dragons f shit up in the Stepstones though I agree, that conflict is somewhat downplayed as well though it is the most prominent one in the show.

Come season 2 we are gonna see a VERY different side to the Targaryens and why EVERYONE else fears them.

I don't think there are any African-Americans in the show, they are all black brits I believe.
 

jason10mm

Member
Whew, where to begin with this episode. Probably our tightest timeline yet, I don't think it spans more than a day or so (the need to drive folks into the Dragonpit suggests there wasn't much, if any, time between finding Aegon and getting him crowned). Ending aside, I liked it quite a bit. They are giving the Alicent actress SO MUCH to work with, it's great.

So a little blonde boy runs out of the King's room. Was this just a rando page/servant or one of Helaena's kids? I'm guessing a servant since he goes straight to the handmaiden/spy. We later see two kids playing with Helaena, presumably the twins Jaeherys and Jaehaera, not sure if the younger boy, Maelor, is around.

Rhaenyra left the night(?) before, but for some reason Rhaenys stayed, perhaps wanting some beauty sleep before flying back. She is presumably at Driftmark in the book since the brief succession conflict was actually some time earlier.

They bring in the twins, Erryk and Arryn Cargyll, though in the book Ser Erryk was guarding Rhaenyra on Dragonstone at this time.

The Greens convene and debate the succession. This plays out pretty close to the book, though the manner of death for Lord Beesbury seems more accident in the show, in the book he is either shanked by Cole right there (or tossed out a window) or imprisoned. They also bring up the point that IF Rhaenyra becomes Queen, her bastard children would succeed her AND Prince Daemon, a man of known dangerous appetites would rule next to her, making this a bit more of a problem of her own making rather than just a "I don't wanna gurl on the throne" bit of nonsense. The legal wrangling, on my opinion, makes this more of a balanced call rather than a straight usurpation of the King's Will, (though Alicent tries that ploy as well). We didn't get the blood oath led by Lord Larys Strong either (no hint of his foot fetish either, not even by Mushroom), which might make some future actions make less sense as in the show the commitment to the Greens is less clear.

Aemon is ready, as shown in the show. Aegon was found in a brothel. We do get the little bit of color about feral kids with filed teeth and nails fighting. We also see a bastard Targaryen, which will likely be useful later. Aegon ius more willing to lead as well, especially since they are CONVINCED Daemon will kill them, even if Rhaenyra says otherwise.

It takes them a few days to consolidate power, suss out those who may be loyal (to them) or true to Rhaenyra, they also go over the voting record of 101 A.C. to see which houses might lean towards a male heir over any female one. Aemon is sent to marry a Baratheon, didn't matter which one, to secure Storm's End. This is VERY likely to happen next ep instead, to tragic consequences.

After a week or so it is announced that the king is dead (he'd been rotting in his bed this whole time) and a coronation is held in the Dragonpit. They do use Aegons iron crown and Jaehaerys & Viserys' golden one gets smuggled out by a faithless (or faithful, if you are a dirty Black :) Kingsguard, Ser Steffon Darklyn and taken to Dragonstone (we see this in the trailer for ep10).

Needless to say, the coronation goes off without a hitch or interruption BY A GODDAMNED DRAGON SMASHING THROUGH THE FLOOR. Sheesh. Instead, Aegon flies around King's Landing on Sunfyre and then ascends the Iron Throne to apparent acclaim all around.

I feel like the Greens have a much more plausible case in the book. Despite Viserys being quite clear about his desire for Rhaenyra to follow him, Rhaenyra sabotaged herself with Harwin Strong (made PAINFULLY obvious in the show) AND by marrying Daemon. She has also removed herself from the nexus of power and did little to shore up her allies. Otto and Alicent, on the other hand, have a pretty legit claim as well and are sitting on the seat of power. Fear for Aegon, Aemon, and Daeron, as well as Helaena's 2 boys as Aegons heirs, is quite understandable given how nefarious Daemon's rep is (even if this show tends to stray from it other than his killing of his first wife). Book Aegon doesn't seem as useless either, just a lusty teen, while in the show he has the makings of a new Maegor or at least be mostly incompetent.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Another great shot. That guy on the small council begins screaming at the queen.... and in slides Criston Cole behind him, blurry and out of focus. You know what may happen - but is he really that extreme? And seconds later we find out, yes, of course he is. He's the ultra white knight once he latches onto a woman.

This show is full of so many excellent villains. I love how they're making the Lord Commander of the King's Guard the only truly good person in the room.
 

jason10mm

Member
This show is full of so many excellent villains. I love how they're making the Lord Commander of the King's Guard the only truly good person in the room.
Sad thing is that character died years ago in the book. Not sure what they will do with him other than stand in for any of the other unnamed Kingsguard.

I wonder if they will use him in place of Ser Darklyn, seems likely.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Sad thing is that character died years ago in the book. Not sure what they will do with him other than stand in for any of the other unnamed Kingsguard.

I wonder if they will use him in place of Ser Darklyn, seems likely.

Yea I know. If I remember he was only mentioned once, and that involved how he died.
 

jason10mm

Member
Hooo boy, what a final ep to close out the season! I had guessed Viserys' death would be the closer, but pushing that up t get to the Aemond/Luc 'fight' was a good call.

Another ep that hewed very close to the source, though naturally Lord Corlys, long since recovered from his fever, was far more hawkish than shown here. I'm not really sure what they are doing with Rhaenys, it seems like she flip flops around, all the while with this all knowing smugness that seems quite unjustified considering she has LOST at every turn.

Seems to me the Velaryons are far more open to a side deal with Alicent at this point in the show versus the books. Cut out the bastard boys, turn over Rhaenyra and Daemon (who was not nearly as suspected in Laenor's death as in the show), and Baela and Rhaena, with proper husbands (say, the absent Daeron perhaps?), get Driftmark and Dragonstone while Viserys and Aegon the Younger are sent far away to be conveniently 'forgotten'.

Anyhoo, Ser Arryk brings Viserys' crown in place of Ser Darklyn, who seems to have been on Dragonstone already, and Rhaenyra has her crown. Her miscarriage happens much as it does in the book, minus the "MONSTER, MONSTER,.....get out" part, making it seem like she could have been commanding her midwives to leave or her child in the show (Condal confirmed this was to her child in the podcast) and it takes three days of labor. We get what looks to be a relatively normal stillborn, lacking the obvious hole in the chest and scaled tail from the book. Did seem to be not quite normal, but hard to say. Thus passes Visenya. Rhaenyra gets over this loss, her only daughter, SUPER FAST though and is right back in action.

The black council happens much like the book, down to the verbatim recounting of forces on Dragonstone. Dug the light up table, that's gonna be REAL popular on etsy :p WE miss on the tidbit that all the Black Council lords got direct summons to King's Landing, thus participating in the Council is instant traitordom and execution. THere is no "lets take a poll and see where we stand" prevaricating nonsense, it is ALREADY a struggle to the death. Otto showing up to recite what they already know, that Aegon II looks, feels, and for all practical purposes, IS the new King.

The dragon count is the same, minus poor Daeron and Tessarion, seemingly deleted from the show, and at least indirect references to the three wild dragons. Looks like we should get the Dragonseeds. Curious if Mysaria's female helper will end up as Nettle, the one actual "brown girl" in the entire text. We miss out a bit on their fear of Vhagar, Rhaenyras inability to ride due to the recent miscarriage, and that most of their dragons belong to young children. Daemon is FAR more calculating and cunning in the book, not just headstrong into battle, most of his arguments end up in Rhaenyra's mouth. Once crowned, Rhaenyra is much more direct, naming Otto and Alicent as traitors and giving them a demand to berd the knee and be spared.

It's Rhaenys that seems so sure the Baratheons will stand with them. They have a rather immediate plan to blockade King's Landing, use Rhaenys as cover in case Aegon or Aemon ventured out against the fleet. Jace and Luc volunteer to be messengers and do get the command to not fight. Jace heads to the Eyrie though, then White Harbor, the North considered too far way to be able to help in time, though he does go there eventually. Luc is sent to Storm's End (alas alas).

The envoy led by Otto actually comes now, and naturally Otto isn't in it. The mesage is the same though. Rhaenyra is FAR more provocative, as she forces Maester Orwyle to admit he turned from her, dismisses his legal arguments, and strips him of his chain of office to give to her own Maester. No "holding the realm together" shit here, she is straight up going for BLOOD. "Tell my half-brother that I will have my throne or I will have his head".

We also miss the last possible dialogue betwixt the twins, Sers Arryk and Erryk Cargyll, as they part with brotherly love knowing their next meeting will likely be to the death.

Storm's End goes much like the book as well. I'm not sure which daughter Aemon is chatting up (other than it is unlikely to be Maris, the clever one), so it's probably Cassandra. Aemon is far more bullying to Luc in the book. And we miss out on the aforementioned Maris, scorned to be passed over, straight up MOCKING Aemond with "Was it one of your eyes he took, or one of your balls?" (can't have catty women in this show, I suppose :p Aemond is likely more of a willing participant in this battle than in the show (which implies the dragons are fighting on their own) and he earns the unfortunate sobriquet "Aemond the KInslayer" for his troubles, though for his allies I'm not sure it was a negative.

Supposedly they are writing season 2 now, so I imagine we are looking at 18 months to 2 years for release. Hopefully we get some tidbits to show how far they intend to go, I gotta think HBO will straight up approve the 2-3 more seasons necessary to wrap up this story given the extreme popularity so hopefully they can at least get the child actors filmed before they age out of their roles, lest the Dance of Dragons take 5 years instead of 2.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
It was interesting seeing Daemon sing like the old ways, and probably learned that from spending time with King Jaehaerys I (Vermithor's old rider). Since that King wasn't a warrior king, and handled things with more diplomacy, art and wisdom.

I wonder if they will stray from the book and have Daemon take over Vermithor, rather than have Ser Hugh Hammer ride him. Probably not, though. Daemon is seemingly getting them accustomed to choosing a rider again, since they've been without for so long.
 
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jason10mm

Member
I gotta think they will have at least some new riders. Without Daeron (still a strange omission IMHO) and Viserys and Aegon the younger FAR too young to participate in any battles, they will need more dragonriders I think. Will they do some sneak aging of the kids and have them 'die' in the sea battle? Probably. Will Corlys present his bastards after Rhaenys goes? Hard to say. I give even odds on Laenor reappearing under a guise versus Addam and Alyn Hull showing up. Nettle will pop up for sure, though I'm curious what her relationship with Daemon will be as this show is turning down the sex on almost all fronts.

I'm actually a little worried about S2. We are losing the tight focus on Alicent and Rhaenyra with Viserys the glue. I'm not super confident that they will mature Rhaenyra into the gluttonous half mad rage monster we see in the book as she sustains loss after loss and everything descends into blood and war. In order for most of these battles to mean anything we need to know the people in them and to set that up is gonna really slow the pace. So either we will keep seeing the same 5 faces in every conflict or they will have to restructure the show significantly to get farther out from the characters we have so far. I 'spect Rhaenys will get a lot more to do, Aegon II will be around for far longer as a hale and healthy man, and this prophecy stuff will play into it more.

Still, I feel like there are enough ground work and audience memory of GoT that they don't need to really explain the Starks, Tullys, and Vale, so they could just keep on a rocking with the battles and betrayals. Seeing how they are doing lots of characters a bit dirty though, if they space out battles for intrigue I'm a bit worried they will have too many irrational and circular characters, kinda like Rhaenys. At least someone over at HBO has a firm hand on the editing, all those post-show interviews with the showrunners seems like they are talking about an earlier version of the episode, one that was a lot more overt in the messaging, versus what we actually see. So hopefully they can keep the show focused on the external struggle and a bit less on whether or not Rhaenyra feels like a woman AND a ruler today. A bit more levity, even if gallows humor, would be nice as well. Aemond seems likely for this, that guy is gonna SKYROCKET to fame/infamy after this show :p
 

IDKFA

Gold Member
Hope the budget increases for future seasons. Don't want HBO to skimp out on the storming of the dragon pit, Battle above the God's Eye, Second Battle of Tumbleton etc.
 

jason10mm

Member
Yeah, wonder how many battles of THOUSANDS turn into a dozen guys flailing from a burning haycart or swinging wildly at each other :p Sapochow is stepping down as exec producer I think, and he was the guy doing all these mass battle episodes.

I'd rather a few really well done fights than lots of half assed ones. Even RoP money can't do this justice on TV, the time constraints, I think, are just too much. And I'm not sure how many military units are sitting around these days to be used for large scale scenes as extras. We've seen that even just crowd stuff like the Dragonpit gets REAL dodgy.
 

Mattdaddy

Gold Member
Interesting in the show they made it seem like Aemond didnt want to actually kill Luke... he just lost control of Vhagar who was pissed.

From the book I thought it was implied that Aemond 100% intended to kill him, or am I remembering wrong?

If they did change that from the books, thats twice they've gone out of their way to make this whole war seem like it was driven by accidents (misinterpretation of the Kings deathbed rambling the other). I guess probably to make it seem even more tragic and drive sympathy for the characters versus just making them look all look like pure power mongers maybe.
 
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jason10mm

Member
Interesting in the show they made it seem like Aemond didnt want to actually kill Luke... he just lost control of Vhagar who was pissed.

From the book I thought it was implied that Aemond 100% intended to kill him, or am I remembering wrong?

If they did change that from the books, thats twice they've gone out of their way to make this whole war seem like it was driven by accidents (misinterpretation of the Kings deathbed rambling the other). I guess probably to make it seem even more tragic and drive sympathy for the characters versus just making them look all look like pure power mongers maybe.
Aemond was more aggressive towards Luc and with the goading by Maris, it seems VERY likely that Aemond was out for blood. So to remove the female taunting, a very common and INCREDIBLY overlooked form of female toxicity, it robs Aemond of motivation, which is replaced by dragon intent.

While there is no direct writing from Aemond himself, the scholars suggest he expected a heroes welcome, thus he at least was happy that Luc died. Alicent and Otto admonish him severely, but King Aegon II lavishes him with praise and a party.

I've NO DOUBT that s2ep1 will end with Blood and Cheese now, all the pieces are in place for it and its about the most GoT thing since the Red Wedding.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Interesting in the show they made it seem like Aemond didnt want to actually kill Luke... he just lost control of Vhagar who was pissed.

From the book I thought it was implied that Aemond 100% intended to kill him, or am I remembering wrong?

If they did change that from the books, thats twice they've gone out of their way to make this whole war seem like it was driven by accidents (misinterpretation of the Kings deathbed rambling the other). I guess probably to make it seem even more tragic and drive sympathy for the characters versus just making them look all look like pure power mongers maybe.

It is mentioned that Aemond even tried to snatch Luke’s letter and played a lot bigger villain’s role than shown in House of the Dragon. He followed Luke on Vhagar, intending to actually hurt him, unlike how it was shown in episode 10. In House of the Dragon, Vhagar disobeys Aemond and kills Arrax and Luke.

Aemond is shown to be innocent of Lucerys’s death. This technique of keeping the audience rooted for both sides is something House of the Dragon has done before with Alicent Hightower. They have shown that Alicent truly believes that Viserys wanted Aegon to be king. However, in Fire & Blood, she crowns Aegon king solely for power and influence over the seven kingdoms and, to some extent, listens to Otto Hightower, her father.
 
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jason10mm

Member
This prophecy stuff needs to either quietly be let go or REALLY played up, I just can't believe how strong of a hold some story has on Rhaenyra and a form of it now on Alicent. Unless Heleana starts spouting more direct prophecy or something it just doesn't seem to do anything other than justify some dodgy writing created by ignoring the very logical character decisions in the book.

Alicent acts the way she does because, in her mind, and in the mind of THOUSANDS, a male heir comes before a female one. That, combined with the SURETY of her kids inevitable deaths at the hands of Daemon (at the very least, if not directly by Rhaenyra herself) to remove the competitors to the VERY OBVIOUS BASTARDS in line to the throne it is completely natural for her to respond the way she does. This conflict mainly exists as a result of A. Viserys' inability/refusal to acknowledge reality and change his heir and B. Rhaenyra's unwillingness/blindness to how her actions have created grave mistrust in her decision making, allowing the green party to manifest in the first place.

Whether or not Aegon II would be a "better" ruler than Rhaenyra or Jace is kinda irrelevant, really.
 

Ionian

Member
Crazy the riots that happen in Brixton.

Crazy also the violent police response.

Shameful shit. Was carnage. Looting and beatings. I feel sorry for anyone that lived there. Was mayhem.

Brixton riots were extremely sad. Saw Faith No More years later. Were brilliant and the city was lovely. I'd go back in a heartbeat.
 

jason10mm

Member
Crazy the riots that happen in Brixton.

Crazy also the violent police response.

Shameful shit. Was carnage. Looting and beatings. I feel sorry for anyone that lived there. Was mayhem.

Brixton riots were extremely sad. Saw Faith No More years later. Were brilliant and the city was lovely. I'd go back in a heartbeat.
No spoilers for Fire and Blood volume three, please :p
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
I can't get over how good e8 dinner scene was, knowing all to come. These writers have their faults but they get the immediacy of these stories. As soon as the king left the room the stewing Aemond kicked everything off while candidly offering why. And for years his words should ring true.

And that brief standoff between him and Daemon. One could pull apart the air.
 
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The Critical Drinker said the show was good, so I started watching it but stopped after episode 3.
The race swapping/black lord casting really bothered and distracted me. I looked into it and defenders of the decision said his race was never stated in the book, but every time I saw him and his family, it completely pulled me out of the show and reminded me of modern politics. After the Witcher and now this, I guess I just gotta get used to it.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
The race swapping/black lord casting really bothered and distracted me. I looked into it and defenders of the decision said his race was never stated in the book, but every time I saw him and his family, it completely pulled me out of the show and reminded me of modern politics. After the Witcher and now this, I guess I just gotta get used to it.

To each their own, but the way they handled diversity in this show was pretty elegant. They merely made all pure Velaryons black with white hair. That was a great way to go about it.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but here in the USA we expect to see people of all races and ethnicities in our every day life because we're a huge melting pot. So seeing Corlys and his family as black was basically not a big deal at all.
 
To each their own, but the way they handled diversity in this show was pretty elegant. They merely made all pure Velaryons black with white hair. That was a great way to go about it.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but here in the USA we expect to see people of all races and ethnicities in our every day life because we're a huge melting pot. So seeing Corlys and his family as black was basically not a big deal at all.

I expect to see minorities in everyday life here in Sydney too, but seeing them in (what I consider to be) medieval Europe is too unbelievable for me - especially as nobles.
There was at least one Chinese/East Asian nurse too. It didnt look organic to me at all.
 
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jason10mm

Member
The problem (as I see it) with Velaryons being a black people (and not just Corlys and his children) is that the Targaryen have married Velaryons several times, so you'd expect Targs to be far darker. King Aegon the Conquorers MOTHER was Valeria Velaryon, King Jaehaerys MOTHER was Alyssa Velaryon. So by the time of the show, the Targaryens should be pretty dark skinned themselves because we see how strong the Velaryon skin tone carries through with Daemon's girls by Laena Velaryon, herself only half Velaryon.

Anyway, it is what it is. A ham fisted casting choice that contributes nothing to the narrative but at least makes some of the cast more distinguishable from the others.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
I expect to see minorities in everyday life here in Sydney too, but seeing them in (what I consider to be) medieval Europe is too unbelievable for me - especially as nobles.
There was at least one Chinese/East Asian nurse too. It didnt look organic to me at all.

Oh Sydney, OK. Your city is probably even more diverse than mine. Far more actually.

And I get it. Some of the casting in other adaptations recently have seemed narratively impossible, and, practically needless to me as well.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Just finished watching. I am Team Alicent & Otto all the way. They aren’t good people but fuck Rhaenerys, she is an annoying cunt even when she does the right thing. Never seen a protagonist who I swung from liking a lot to not caring for as much as her. I think the show wants me to dislike Otto but my guy just wants order and for his blood to continue in power. He also at least has a fairly normal motivation in the form of greed and isn’t a complete psychopath like Daemon.
 

Ballthyrm

Member
I expect to see minorities in everyday life here in Sydney too, but seeing them in (what I consider to be) medieval Europe is too unbelievable for me - especially as nobles.
There was at least one Chinese/East Asian nurse too. It didnt look organic to me at all.

This isn't medieval Europe though, and Valyrians are literally strangers from Westeros.
As for the Chinese/East Asian she may come from Yi Ti.

There is a lot of cultures in ASOIAF and as long as there is Trade, people move around even in the middle ages.
Byzantine emperors. famously had Varangian Guards from Scandinavia for example.

Just finished watching. I am Team Alicent & Otto all the way. They aren’t good people but fuck Rhaenerys, she is an annoying cunt even when she does the right thing. Never seen a protagonist who I swung from liking a lot to not caring for as much as her. I think the show wants me to dislike Otto but my guy just wants order and for his blood to continue in power. He also at least has a fairly normal motivation in the form of greed and isn’t a complete psychopath like Daemon.

This is why Fire and Blood is nice, no ones has the better claim and it is supposed to split the people appart. It benefit the show as well as it will encourage the audience to take sides and we are about to get a proper fight.
The more colorful characters are ahead so I'm pretty pumped if they can get this level of quality.
 
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