Support NeoGAF

[LakeOf9]

with the hype for ff16 and totk I've been thinking about this. as a pc first player I always got the sense that the two big console franchises that defined the market were final fantasy and Zelda. I remember in the 1990s hearing non stop about how amazing final fantasy 7 and ocarina of time were, and that continued into the ps2 era, where final fantasy 10 and twilight princess both saw an insane amount of hype.

but im thinking of today, and today, it doesnt feel like the two share that same level of prestige anymore. final fantasy is still obviously a big, major, and loved franchise, but it feels like it lost a lot of its stature from the ps1 days. meanwhile Zelda seems to be an even bigger deal now than it has ever been before.

its even weirder because Zelda is actually much rarer with game releases, but final fantasy has multiple major releases so you would think that final fantasy should be able to stay top of mind easier than something that shows up like once every eight years.

so how exactly did this happen?

 

[xXRedxSlugXx]

Though its subjective, I'd have to say the overall quality of a Zelda release is higher than a Final Fantasy release. I also think that since the releases are further apart they mean more when one comes out. As they say absence makes the heart grow fonder.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Zelda has been just as up and down as Final Fantasy with just as much divisiveness for some of its titles

BOTW was simply a reinvention of the franchise that hopefully FF16 can successfully achieve as well

 

[LakeOf9]

Zelda has been just as up and down as Final Fantasy with just as much divisiveness for some of its titles

BOTW was simply a reinvention of the franchise that hopefully FF16 can successfully achieve as well

The only real "down" for zelda I remember is skyward sword. final fantasy seems to have had more misses than hits after 10. wind waker I remember got some flack before release because it looked like a cartoon but I remember that dying out pretty much as soon as it released, so I wouldn't count that.

I guess in terms of time period skyward sword missing means zelda had a low point for like five years, is that what you meant?

 

[Abriael_GN]

Nintendo fans are way less demanding and more forgiving.

 

[hyperbertha]

Is it really that hard? Zelda has never had a bad entry in its mainline, whereas final fantasy has given us masterpieces such as ff13, ff13-2, ff 15, the initial version of ff14 etc. There's just been a lot of bad press around ff. Foraying into mmo's didn't help either. Multiplayer always invites negative reputation.

 

[LakeOf9]

Nintendo fans are way less demanding and more forgiving.

both these franchise's appeal and popularity goes way beyond their respective fanbases obviously

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The only real "down" for zelda I remember is skyward sword. final fantasy seems to have had more misses than hits after 10. wind waker I remember got some flack before release because it looked like a cartoon but I remember that dying out pretty much as soon as it released, so I wouldn't count that.

I guess in terms of time period skyward sword missing means zelda had a low point for like five years, is that what you meant?

Skyward Sword and Wind Waker are not as fondly remembered when it comes to mainstream appeal even though they have their fanbase and I consider them to still be good. Final fantasy is similar.

Zelda is probably more consistent overall though it certainly hasn’t been perfect, we are just ending on a high note with BOTW

 

[Fredrik]

I think this is mostly how you feel.

FF16 looks more like an action game than RPG to me and Zelda TOTK looks like a BOTW expansion. If you’re hyped then it’s because the games align perfectly with your taste in games, it’s not because they’re doing something magical managing the IPs.
I’ll play both but I’m not really hyped for any of them at this point. Reviews could change it I guess.

 

[hyperbertha]

The only real "down" for zelda I remember is skyward sword. final fantasy seems to have had more misses than hits after 10. wind waker I remember got some flack before release because it looked like a cartoon but I remember that dying out pretty much as soon as it released, so I wouldn't count that.

I guess in terms of time period skyward sword missing means zelda had a low point for like five years, is that what you meant?

Skyward sword was considered the best wii game by the majority of people. I wouldn't call it a miss.

 

[LakeOf9]

Is it really that hard? Zelda has never had a bad entry in its mainline, whereas final fantasy has given us masterpieces such as ff13, ff13-2, ff 15, the initial version of ff14 etc. There's just been a lot of bad press around ff. Foraying into mmo's didn't help either. Multiplayer always invites negative reputation.

I dont agree though, skyward sword I would say is ff13 level bad. I do agree the others are all at least good but there are also fewer of them compared to ff.

I dont know, I just assume a bad ff game's negative sentiment sticks around for shorter time than zelda. if you hate skyward sword you're not getting a good Zelda game for six years. ff is much quicker (though it slowed down after ps3 era).

 

[TrueLegend]

Hmm, what can I say, I haven't played much of Zelda but pretty much all FF entries have been good. FF13 and FFXV are also good final fantasy games, however they both misdirected players heavily through trailers.

 

[LakeOf9]

Skyward sword was considered the best wii game by the majority of people. I wouldn't call it a miss.

isn't the entire reason they made breath of the wild because skyward sword underperformed critically and commercially

I think this is mostly how you feel.

FF16 looks more like an action game than RPG to me and Zelda TOTK looks like a BOTW expansion. If you’re hyped then it’s because the games align perfectly with your taste in games, it’s not because they’re doing something magical managing the IPs.
I’ll play both but I’m not really hyped for any of them at this point. Reviews could change it I guess.

Im not talking about which game looks better (I think ff16 looks much better), im talking about how a new Zelda release is always a bigger deal for some reason than a new ff release

 

[Days like these...]

Is it really that hard? Zelda has never had a bad entry in its mainline, whereas final fantasy has given us masterpieces such as ff13, ff13-2, ff 15, the initial version of ff14 etc. There's just been a lot of bad press around ff. Foraying into mmo's didn't help either. Multiplayer always invites negative reputation.

Don't forget X, that was the beginning of the end imo

 

[Abriael_GN]

both these franchise's appeal and popularity goes way beyond their respective fanbases obviously

Nintendo console users are simply way less demanding in general. It's a younger user base, with a much larger percentage of casual gamers. The part of the fanbase that isn't young is also way more influenced by nostalgia because Nintendo has basically programmed them like that.

That goes a long way in games getting a lot more slack.

This is not to say that Zelda games are generally bad, but they are often *highly* overrated.

 

[hyperbertha]

I dont agree though, skyward sword I would say is ff13 level bad. I do agree the others are all at least good but there are also fewer of them compared to ff.

I dont know, I just assume a bad ff game's negative sentiment sticks around for shorter time than zelda. if you hate skyward sword you're not getting a good Zelda game for six years. ff is much quicker (though it slowed down after ps3 era).

This is revisionist history. Look at how much Skyward sword is rated on metacritic. Look up top ten wii game lists at the time. Skyward sword is the best wii game of all time according to consensus.

 

[LakeOf9]

Nintendo console users are simply way less demanding in general. It's a younger user base, with a much larger percentage of casual gamers. The part of the fanbase that isn't young is also way more influenced by nostalgia because Nintendo has basically programmed them like that.

That goes a long way in games getting a lot more slack.

again, critics and developers are also the ones who sing endless praises for Zelda. its not like every nintendo game gets this kind of crazy praise, almost everything except Mario and Zelda really doesnt. your point doesnt make any sense when actual industry veterans, not just media who can be paid off or whatever, but actual developers, are also consistently stopping and making note of these franchises.

and once they used to for ff too, but now they dont as much. and the question was about the difference in that.

This is revisionist history. Look at how much Skyward sword is rated on metacritic. Look up top ten wii game lists at the time. Skyward sword is the best wii game of all time according to consensus.

If we are going by metacritic, lists, or sales, both Mario galaxy games are better Wii games. twilight princess is a better Wii game. some smash bros. game is a better Wii game.

this is also ignoring the game flopped sales wise, and even critically it got totally overshadowed in a way Zelda never does, and players hated it, and nintendo themselves have admitted the backlash to it was what made them make botw.

 

[Calverz]

Zelda releases have progressively gotten better and infrequent.

Final Fantasy has gotten progressively worse and more frequent releases with drivel (CHAOS).

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

This is revisionist history. Look at how much Skyward sword is rated on metacritic. Look up top ten wii game lists at the time. Skyward sword is the best wii game of all time according to consensus.

Every single Zelda game will get tremendous praise by the press

You won’t know the full story until a few months after it releases

I enjoyed SS but let’s not pretend it didnt have huge backlash

It was the most ho hum Zelda release and why BOTW turned the series around

 

[Abriael_GN]

again, critics and developers are also the ones who sing endless praises for Zelda.

It's almost like you think critics and developers aren't influenced by nostalgia and are somehow objective.

 

[SpiceRacz]

isn't the entire reason they made breath of the wild because skyward sword underperformed critically and commercially


Im not talking about which game looks better (I think ff16 looks much better), im talking about how a new Zelda release is always a bigger deal for some reason than a new ff release

Skyward Sword was critically acclaimed and one of the highest rated games ever. Also sold over 3 million copies.

 

[LakeOf9]

It's almost like you think critics and developers aren't influenced by nostalgia and are somehow objective.

so basically, we shouldnt listen to game developers, or critics, or audiences, but to your fantasy world where nintendo gets a free pass and final fantasy doesnt. k

Zelda releases have progressively gotten better and infrequent.

Final Fantasy has gotten progressively worse and more frequent releases with drivel (CHAOS).

I mean if we are counting spin offs then why won't we talk about hurdle warriors for Zelda, that was a mess wasn't it

Skyward Sword was critically acclaimed and one of the highest rated games ever. Also sold over 3 million copies.

yes, which nintendo viewed as an underperformance. again, they themselves have said multiple times thats why they decided to rethink things with botw

 

[emivita]

Don't forget X that was the beginning of the end imo

Wasn't it VII? /s

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Skyward Sword was critically acclaimed and one of the highest rated games ever. Also sold over 3 million copies.

Is 3 million good for a Zelda game?? How many did BOTW sell?

I rest my case

 

[Calverz]

I mean if we are counting spin offs then why won't we talk about hurdle warriors for Zelda, that was a mess wasn't it

Sure. What’s the final fantasy fighting game again?

 

[Abriael_GN]

so basically, we shouldnt listen to game developers, or critics, or audiences, but to your fantasy world where nintendo gets a free pass and final fantasy doesnt. k

The fantasy world is the one in which Nintendo doesn't get favorable treatment.

Anyone who has even the smallest experience in this industry and doesn't wear blinders is aware of this.

 

[LakeOf9]

The fantasy world is the one in which Nintendo doesn't get a free pass.

Anyone who has even the smallest experience in this industry and doesn't wear blinders is aware of this.

So if everyone ever is giving Nintendo a free pass, and you alone are not…

Have you ever stopped to consider that the entire rest of the world might not be wr-

You know what, no point. Carry on.

 

[hyperbertha]

If we are going by metacritic, lists, or sales, both Mario galaxy games are better Wii games. twilight princess is a better Wii game. some smash bros. game is a better Wii game.

this is also ignoring the game flopped sales wise, and even critically it got totally overshadowed in a way Zelda never does, and players hated it, and nintendo themselves have admitted the backlash to it was what made them make botw.

I'm really struggling to comprehend wtf you are talking about. Sure Mario galaxy may have a couple points above Skyward, but it's a critically acclaimed game that is on rank 1 spot on many top 10 wii game lists. Are you seriously struggling to understand why Zelda has never suffered a blow to its reputation compared to a franchise that's been wallowing in the low 80s on metacritic? Not to mention ff 10 and 12 also got huge backlash from players despite being somewhat critically praised.

 

[Fredrik]

Im not talking about which game looks better (I think ff16 looks much better), im talking about how a new Zelda release is always a bigger deal for some reason than a new ff release

Why is it a bigger deal? I don’t think it is this time, the BOTW release was wild though.

 

[SpiceRacz]

Is 3 million good for a Zelda game?? How many did BOTW sell?

I rest my case

Breath of The Wild was the killer app at launch. Skyward Sword came out towards the end of the Wii's life. Skyward Sword has already sold more copies in 2 years on Switch than it ever did on Wii.

 

[Abriael_GN]

So if everyone ever is giving Nintendo a free pass, and you alone are not…

Have you ever stopped to consider that the entire rest of the world might not be wr-

You know what, no point. Carry on.

Oh, I'm certainly not alone. Plenty of people agree with me. It's simply a matter of percentages.

But it's fairly obvious from your answers that your initial question wasn't an honest question, considering how dismissive you are of the answers that don't fit your narrative.

 

[LakeOf9]

I'm really struggling to comprehend wtf you are talking about. Sure Mario galaxy may have a couple points above Skyward, but it's a critically acclaimed game that is on rank 1 spot on many top 10 wii game lists. Are you seriously struggling to understand why Zelda has never suffered a blow to its reputation compared to a franchise that's been wallowing in the low 80s on metacritic? Not to mention ff 10 and 12 also got huge backlash from players despite being somewhat critically praised.

I disagree there was any meaningful backlash to 10 or 12 (and the rereleases for both did amazingly well, if backlash had been real they wouldn’t have done well)

I guess 13 is the only one with real backlash? 15 I see a lot of hate for in forums but it sold 10 million and people loved the characters.

Why is it a bigger deal? I don’t think it is this time, the BOTW release was wild though.

Basing this on buzz I’m seeing on websites and YouTube and stuff. Which is weird to me because again I think TOTK looks good but ff16 legitimately looks like the best game ever but the buzz doesn’t reflect that

 

[Rickyiez]

Because the last few mainline FF are terrible, that's why.

 

[LakeOf9]

Because the last few mainline FF are terrible, that's why.

But they’re not? And if nothing else FF14 has been 90+ for over a decade that should count

 

[Abriael_GN]

Because the last few mainline FF are terrible, that's why.

Final Fantasy XIV is a better game than any Zelda will ever be.

 

[daninthemix]

Though its subjective, I'd have to say the overall quality of a Zelda release is higher than a Final Fantasy release. I also think that since the releases are further apart they mean more when one comes out. As they say absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Yes, good answers. There are quite a few bad FF games, and they are all over the place in terms of gameplay, style, tone. Zelda is more consistent.

 

[LakeOf9]

Oh, I'm certainly not alone. Plenty of people agree with me. It's simply a matter of percentages.

But it's fairly obvious from your answers that your initial question wasn't an honest question, considering how dismissive you are of the answers that don't fit your narrative.

Mate I have no idea what weird built up projected idea about me playing up Zelda you are trying to push on to me when I’ve said multiple times I think ff16 looks better than totk does but if this is how you view the world I guess it’s no wonder you think the entire industry worships Nintendo, just mentioning them seems to be giving them a free pass and building up a narrative in your conspiracy world

Anyway, you at least have good taste in games if you like ff14, which you do, so I’m going to wish you luck in your nice fantasy land and block you now

 

[Chukhopops]

FF had way more terrible episodes even if you only count the mainline games.

Zelda had SS and TP, which are only bad compared to other Zelda games, on their own they’re alright.

They are not the same.

 

[Abriael_GN]

Mate I have no idea what weird built up projected idea about me playing up Zelda you are trying to push on to me when I’ve said multiple times I think ff16 looks better than totk does but if this is how you view the world I guess it’s no wonder you think the entire industry worships Nintendo, just mentioning them seems to be giving them a free pass and building up a narrative in your conspiracy world

Anyway, you at least have good taste in games if you like ff14, which you do, so I’m going to wish you luck in your nice fantasy land and block you now

I rest my case.

 

[hyperbertha]

But they’re not? And if nothing else FF14 has been 90+ for over a decade that should count

You are selectively ignoring and minimising backlash to ff while waaay overblowing any 'backlash' to Skyward sword. Arguably Ff hasn't been good since 10 and many people will agree with me.

 

[LakeOf9]

You are selectively ignoring and minimising backlash to ff while waaay overblowing any 'backlash' to Skyward sword. Arguably Ff hasn't been good since 10 and many people will agree with me.

The entire point I’m making is that the level of backlash is roughly similar but that for Zelda it lasts longer because each game is the “main” game for years where ff gets a new one much sooner

Sure. What’s the final fantasy fighting game again?

Dissidia right?

 

[Robb]

The quality has always been there for Zelda. Even the worst Zelda game is an amazing and very polished game.

I don’t play FF but from what I’ve gathered it’s been a bit more hit and miss over time.

 

[Ozzie666]

Wow, it's like people forget what Zelda actually was before Breath of the Wild.

FF has many more spinoffs and an overall presence than Zelda. It used to be Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy; I don't recall Zelda being included with those.

BOTW changed Zelda and how people view it. Will see if they can do it a second time.

 

[Madjaba]

Because FF shakes the formula each games and offers novelty which won’t play nice with nostalgists.

Look, even turn based vs real time action battles is polarising the community and it’s but only one ingredient of the FF formula.

On the other end Zelda is more appealing to its fanbase and is finding a better balance between new system and what a Zelda game must be. Look at TOTK they won’t completely change something that’s working but they’ll bring more flavour to savour it better.

FF is more « Fuck the formula » and players have to adapt to their concept for each games so it can make or break and we’ve seen great things like Theatrythm emerge from their bold mindset but they go too far and lose themselves in the process.

But with FFXVI I’m hopeful because if you look at what they’ve done to FFXIV which is going the full « This is what players love in a FF game » we can hope for a game that will truly scratch the itch of what an actual Final Fantasy should be.

 

[Fbh]

Zelda stuck to the established formula for way longer. Yeah the art style and many of the details changed but the whole focus on dungeons with puzzles you solve with various items/gadgets remained the same. I think having established and recognizable characters like Link and Zelda in all games helps too.

Then when they finally decided to re-invent the formula they struck gold on the first try with BoTW.

FF on the other hand feels like they've been trying to re-invent the formula with every new entry since X, with mixed results.
XI was an MMO, then XII ditched the traditional turn based combat and felt a bit like an offline MMO, then XIII was a hyper linear game with no towns, almost no NPC's, No shops, no sidequests until late game and a new combat system, then XIV went back to an MMO which had to be rebooted before it became popular and finally XV was an open world game with real time xomab

 

[Fredrik]

Basing this on buzz I’m seeing on websites and YouTube and stuff. Which is weird to me because again I think TOTK looks good but ff16 legitimately looks like the best game ever but the buzz doesn’t reflect that

I don’t sense that TOTK buzz. What’s it about? Building vehicles and combining stuff to weapons?

 

[Days like these...]

Wasn't it VII? /s

I hated X so for me it was X.

 

[Freeman76]

I think developers of Zelda games know what their fans love about their franchise, but FF devs not so much.

 

[LakeOf9]

I don’t sense that TOTK buzz. What’s it about? Building vehicles and combining stuff to weapons?

After the last trailer? Have you not seen the buzz about the story and characters and music and dungeons?

 

[RGB'D]

Skyward Sword and Wind Waker are not as fondly remembered when it comes to mainstream appeal even though they have their fanbase and I consider them to still be good. Final fantasy is similar.

Zelda is probably more consistent overall though it certainly hasn’t been perfect, we are just ending on a high note with BOTW

Even Zelda downs aren't comparable to FF. There hasn't been a good FF since X