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[ShadowNate]

Yeah, it's not that I hate it, but I'm certainly burnt out -- I used to look forward to the movies or tv series episodes. Now it's very likely that I'll stop watching halfway through (the movies are sometimes too long and boring themselves).

I think I'm mostly done with the genre for a while, unless something hugely original comes out, and there hasn't been anything like that for a few years now.

Multiverse makes things worse with the lack of originality and the general feeling of recycling material, although I did like a few select moments from the latest Spiderman (which sadly overall was a disappointment to me).

 

[Kilau]

I always find it funny when my wife watches a Marvel movie with me and points out unrealistic things and I just tell her “Honey, you didn’t have any concerns with the giant green guy who’s mass just expands out of nowhere and now you are complaining that physics don’t add up?”

But I absolutely see your point: Many things have been established for quite some time now and newer stuff just feels like “plot device”.

Yeah, my wife and I will say to each other "THAT'S where you're calling bullshit?" when one of us points out something absurd in an already absurd movie or show.

 

[DeafTourette]

I've never seen so much disdain for almost ANYTHING except here. Y'all don't like Marvel, DC, star wars, harry Potter, fantastic beasts... And I can go on... And when folks have something somewhat new to suggest that isn't just like what came before... y'all are amazingly quiet.

The multiverse was JUST introduced (on the big screen) in Spider-Man No Way Home... And y'all are tired of it ALREADY?!?! I thought it would just be OP but it's almost all of y'all! WTH?!? It's like you WANT things to hate... And barely any of what OP says would happen HAS happened. Pre-2014 GotG came back? Cool. Pre-Infinity War Thanos came back? He's dead or doesn't exist now.

I'm intrigued what the Eternals will do when they're brought together with the rest of the MCU on screen. I can't wait to see Spectrum finally on film. Can't wait to see Daredevil in all his MCU canon glory! Can't wait to see so much more...

Yeah... That's what happens when one saga closes, another begins. Keeps the whole franchise from getting stale. Bringing in new blood, new stories (which the mainstream hasn't seen), etc. Y'all are a bunch of old azz sourpusses that would make Walter Matthau cringe!

Just say you hate life and anything that brings others joy... Like dang, man! Do y'all enjoy ANYTHING that others do? Or are you just gatekeeping because you were fans of these things first before it became popular?

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

I agree. The whole concept of "timelines" / "universes" in science fiction is trash, and has progressively ruined much of the genre decade by decade as everyone falls into this braindead style of writing.

It takes all the stakes and weight away, as you said. It's also the perfect vehicle for corporate milking of franchises, because it basically means a free ticket to shuffle actors, reimagine characters, etc ad inifinitum. Anything multiverse is basically just "let's make the characters a franchise-ready brand we can control, rather than having them stand alone." No surprise that Disney loves it. You can swap your character out for a million different actors and contrary portrayals in serial without even the slightest respect for the source material, because there is no "true" single version of a character or story anymore. They become corporate action-figures.

(Mike of RedLetterMedia has a great comment on this, by the way, in the context of Star Trek. A single episode in the final season of The Next Generation briefly introduced a "multiple timelines" concept and Mike rightly says that to accept that as canon means to deflate the weight and importance of the entire franchise. He calls it the worst episode of the entire series for this reason.)

 

[DeafTourette]

I agree. The whole concept of "timelines" / "universes" in science fiction is trash, and has progressively ruined much of the genre decade by decade as everyone falls into this braindead style of writing.

It takes all the stakes and weight away, as you said. It's also the perfect vehicle for corporate milking of franchises, because it basically means a free ticket to shuffle actors, reimagine characters, etc ad inifinitum. Anything multiverse is basically just "let's make the characters a franchise-ready brand we can control, rather than having them stand alone." No surprise that Disney loves it. You can swap your character out for a million different actors and contrary portrayals in serial without even the slightest respect for the source material, because there is no "true" single version of a character or story anymore. They become corporate action-figures.

(Mike of RedLetterMedia has a great comment on this, by the way, in the context of Star Trek. A single episode in the final season of The Next Generation briefly introduced a "multiple timelines" concept and Mike rightly says that to accept that as canon means to deflate the weight and importance of the entire franchise. He calls it the worst episode of the entire series for this reason.)

None of what you said is happening! Even Loki is the same Loki from 2012 ...

None of that extra ish you posted is even happening! DC and Marvel have had their multiverses since the 1950s!

Like I said... Y'all are devoid of joy or want others to have THEIR joy! You hate everything! And y'all keep bringing up RLM as if they speak the truth. No, they speak with what YOU agree with.

Joy soul suckers you lot are. It's amazing! What planet do y'all come from? Planet Cynic?

 

[Jsisto]

None of what you said is happening! Even Loki is the same Loki from 2012 ...

None of that extra ish you posted is even happening! DC and Marvel have had their multiverses since the 1950s!

Like I said... Y'all are devoid of joy or want others to have THEIR joy! You hate everything! And y'all keep bringing up RLM as if they speak the truth. No, they speak with what YOU agree with.

Joy soul suckers you lot are. It's amazing! What planet do y'all come from? Planet Cynic?

I didn‘t see anyone suggest you or anyone else shouldn‘t enjoy something. I for one have plenty of thing I enjoy, Marvel movies just haven’t been one of them for a very long time. Not everyone has to enjoy all things.

 

[sol_bad]

I didn‘t see anyone suggest you or anyone else shouldn‘t enjoy something. I for one have plenty of thing I enjoy, Marvel movies just haven’t been one of them for a very long time. Not everyone has to enjoy all things.

People who love the MCU and Star Wars are generaly looked down upon here though. I'm sure I'll continue to be called a Disney sycophant event though I'm the first to admit how terrible Boba Fett is.

This thread is weird, some say the multiverse is shit because they can easily recast popular characters, then others are saying they should basically reboot tings and start fresh. Seriously, what the hell is the difference between these 2 options?

*EDIT*
talk about perfect timing. LOL

 

[strange headache]

I've never seen so much disdain for almost ANYTHING except here. Y'all don't like Marvel, DC, star wars, harry Potter, fantastic beasts... And I can go on... A
Yeah... That's what happens when one saga closes, another begins. Keeps the whole franchise from getting stale. Bringing in new blood, new stories (which the mainstream hasn't seen), etc. Y'all are a bunch of old azz sourpusses that would make Walter Matthau cringe!
Just say you hate life and anything that brings others joy... Like dang, man! Do y'all enjoy ANYTHING that others do? Or are you just gatekeeping because you were fans of these things first before it became popular?

Joy soul suckers you lot are. It's amazing! What planet do y'all come from? Planet Cynic?

Look man, you're a good dude but some people are just more picky or have higher standards. Some people enjoy critiquing the media they consume and others are just fed up by the formulaic production-line character of these franchises.

People have presented plenty of rational argument as to why the multiverse is just a bad plot device that further cheapens these movies and mostly serves as a marketing ploy. From a storytelling point of view, there is certainly a lot to criticize. Heck, I've even given a famous example from the comics where they tried to get rid of the multiverse, so we're certainly not the only ones who seem to be aware of these issues. If that triggers you, feel free to put this thread on ignore instead of waltzing in here and throwing around ad hominems that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Feel free to disagree and enjoy whatever you like to enjoy, that doesn't give you the right to make baseless assumptions about those who do not share your subjective tastes. The people commenting here, including myself, got plenty of things that they enjoy in life. Inversely, somebody that is hyped about every superhero movie isn't automatically a happy person in life.

These movies have become the equivalent of cinematic fast food. Sure, it might taste good, but from a nutritional perspective, it's unhealthy crap. You wouldn't go around calling people who have a distaste for unhealthy fast food "old azz sourpusses" and "joy soul suckers".

...though I'm the first to admit how terrible Boba Fett is.

Oh no you sourpuss, can't you enjoy anything in your miserable life? /s

 

[sol_bad]

strange headache There aren't any rational arguments yet as we haven't seen how things will play out yet. People are just assuming what will happen.

 

[Ionian]

strange headache There aren't any rational arguments yet as we haven't seen how things will play out yet. People are just assuming what will happen.

Isn't one argument being put forward is that the stakes are lowered when decisions can be stepped around, thus never truly resolving to a complete picture? That's undeniably true.

After all, what is dead may never die.

 

[sol_bad]

Isn't one argument being put forward is that the stakes are lowered when decisions can be stepped around, thus never truly resolving to a complete picture? That's undeniably true.

After all, what is dead may never die.

Gamora and Loki are basically the only examples we have right now and we don't know how those situations are going to play out yet.

*EDIT*
and look at one of my last posts in this thread where I point out that the multiverse isn't needed to bring back dead characters.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

I've never seen so much disdain for almost ANYTHING except here. Y'all don't like Marvel, DC, star wars, harry Potter, fantastic beasts... And I can go on... And when folks have something somewhat new to suggest that isn't just like what came before... y'all are amazingly quiet.

What do you expect when most of the entries in those series are crap?

 

[sol_bad]

What do you expect when most of the entries in those series are crap?

Don't forget the haters are in the minority.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I hate capeshit too

 

[Midnight Bliss]

This is the best description I've ever heard of capeshit or any modern funkopop tier fandom like final fantasy or starwars

These products aren’t even about anything anymore. The story doesn’t matter, it’s just a product for people who want to see the characters waved around in front of their eyes in a consequence free world that goes on forever and ever.

 

[strange headache]

strange headache There aren't any rational arguments yet as we haven't seen how things will play out yet. People are just assuming what will happen.

But they have already done it and considering the series and movies to come, they will abuse this even more. The new Strange movie seems indicative of that. Besides, this thread is not about a specific movie, but about discussing the multiverse as a plot device and its possible impact on storytelling and audience engagement.

Don't forget the haters are in the minority.

So people who care about quality entertainment, good storytelling and narrative structure are haters now? Bugger off, your precious fanboy feelings getting hurt doesn't give you the right to trash every thread that isn't to your liking. You're like a fast food junkie lashing out at everybody telling him that his diet is bad.

I don't get why you are so frikkin' defensive about everything. Apparently we can't have discussions that go beyond box office numbers and silly character cameo speculations, without you getting triggered. My main indicator of how bad these movies have become is how every discussion surrounding these films is only about the following things:

• Did you have fun watching the movie?
• Was superhero movie x better than superhero movie y?
• Did it make a lot of money?
• What characters made an appearance or are being teased to make an appearance?
• How does that movie connect to the narrative mess of all the other movies?

The discussion is never about the following things:

• What meaningful message did the movie try to convey?
• What themes, issues and views did the story touch upon?
• What did we learn from watching the movie?
• What essential struggles of human life did it portray?
• How are the characters portrayed and what do they stand for?
• Are internal consistency, narrative structure and tone maintained?
• Are the dialogues relatable and to they tell us something interesting?
• etc...

With meaningful movies, you never have discussions about whether the movie was good or not. Instead you have discussions about its message and what it tries to convey. Most superhero movies are so devoid of substance that there is really nothing to talk about other than box office numbers and it shows in the discussions surrounding these movies. Softening the already weak narrative structure of these movies by introducing a multiverse is only going to make things even more meaningless and inconsequential.

In the beginning, I used to watch all these movies because I enjoyed them. Nowadays, just like with fast food, I usually feel bad and bloated afterwards.

 

[sol_bad]

But they have already done it and considering the series and movies to come, they will abuse this even more. The new Strange movie seems indicative of that. Besides, this thread is not about a specific movie, but about discussing the multiverse as a plot device and its possible impact on storytelling and audience engagement.

How have they already done it?
Do you mean how the Avengers time traveled to get new Infinity Stones to save the day? Are you trying to say that is less creative than having the Avengers go to Thanos' farm, beat him, steal his gauntlet and stones and snap everyone back?

Even outside of the MCU, we have no idea how DC is going to handle it in the films. I think they have already done it in the TV shows but that won't be indicative of how they'll do it in the theatres.

I can't think of any other franchises that have used a multiverse.

RE what you wish people would discuss about films, no one discussed those topics for Back to the Future, Indiana Jones or Jaws either. They are just fun blockbuster films, nothing has changed in that regard. And you should check the Eternals thread again on various forums, their is quite a bit of discussion about its story and whether it make sense or not and if characters actions make sense or not.
Also, I watch more than just "fast food" films but this forum barely discusses anything else, just look at the threads for The Green Knight and Antlers for example.

 

[Jsisto]

I don’t think it’s fair to just shit on these movies because they lack a deep message or theme. You really cant deny that they are entertaining to a lot of people. The problem, for me at least, is the complete over saturation of them. We all have guilty pleasures. I love cheesy Jason Statham action movies. The Transporter Trilogy are some of my favorite action movies ever. The martial arts, cheesy one liners, laughably over the top villains and absurd ever increasing scale of the dangers all while knowing hes never really at risk. However, if there was a Jason Statham expanded universe and a new movie and TV series coming out every month, I would quickly lose interest. I need variety in the entertainment I consume,

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Don't forget the haters are in the minority.

I’m sure in your eyes, anyone with a legitimate criticism of those movies are haters.

 

[sol_bad]

I’m sure in your eyes, anyone with a legitimate criticism of those movies are haters.

You're the one that said the majority of movies in those franchises are crap. Are you saying you aren't a hater? Are you saying you love all that crap?

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

You're the one that said the majority of movies in those franchises are crap. Are you saying you aren't a hater? Are you saying you love all that crap?

Don’t try to change the definition of hater on the internet. You know full well that hater means someone who hates something for illogical reasons.

 

[Lickety]

It's been exceedingly difficult for someone like me to find a good entry point into the Marvel Comics. Especially with all the different continuities and variations.

What I think eventually will happen, is that the cinema experience will get to a point (if it hasn't already) where the continuity really doesn't matter at all. And you'll be able to watch any film at any point in the series without even understanding a lick of the story (because the story obviously won't matter anymore).

 

[Lickety]

It's been exceedingly difficult for someone like me to find a good entry point into the Marvel Comics. Especially with all the different continuities and variations.

What I think eventually will happen, is that the cinema experience will get to a point (if it hasn't already) where the continuity really doesn't matter at all. And you'll be able to watch any film at any point in the series without even understanding a lick of the story (because the story obviously won't matter anymore).

You really only need two things to appeal to consumers.

1. Flashy colors
2. Sex appeal

 

[TonyK]

It was totally shit when in Loki they showed a drawer filled of Infinity stones. Suddenly, all the epicness of Thanos and the two last Avengers movies was lost and become a joke for the new Marvel universe. This new Marvel multiverse is pure crap.

 

[LaughingStock]

Well, this is being faithful to the source materials. Nothing matters because the next writer can undo what happened in the previous run.

 

[DeafTourette]

I do want apologize for my hyperbole.

However, a logical counter to what everyone has complained about: if they're making things to where there is a multiverse, why would they be introducing a ton of new characters? They aren't bringing back Steve Rogers. They aren't bringing back Iron Man. There might be cameos of alternate Rogers and Stark but that's all they are: cameos for Multiverse of Madness. They are bringing in WAY TOO many new characters to just bring in variants of these characters into the fold. Florence Pugh might be taking up the mantle of Black Widow... We already have a new Captain America now in Sam Wilson (Bucky was never GIVEN the shield in the comics... Sam was the only one Steve passed it down to). Vision was rebuilt and will probably be coming back (no multiverse anything there).

Like I said... Some of the arguments are just projection and not based on anything that's being done now or in the foreseeable future.

Edit: Loki and Gamora are basically the same persons that died but taken from earlier in the timeline... Basically the same but born out of the time travel shenanigans that created a split universe. They aren't pulled from the multiverse.

 

[ntropy]

time travel in movies is like the goto command in C/C++

 

[FireFly]

People have presented plenty of rational argument as to why the multiverse is just a bad plot device that further cheapens these movies and mostly serves as a marketing ploy. From a storytelling point of view, there is certainly a lot to criticize. Heck, I've even given a famous example from the comics where they tried to get rid of the multiverse, so we're certainly not the only ones who seem to be aware of these issues. If that triggers you, feel free to put this thread on ignore instead of waltzing in here and throwing around ad hominems that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

All the arguments so far seem to be theoretical arguments about what the multiverse could enable rather than specific critiques about how the multiverse is actually being used by Marvel or DC. Plenty of science fiction technologies can be used as cheap plot devices to remove stakes or provide easy doevers. If Marvel wanted RDJ back they could do so without needing to take him from another universe. Strange could have used the time stone to resurrect him before returning it, and he could be hiding out somewhere. Or some galactic level force can resurrect him.

I think the responsibility is ultimately on the writers to make sure that their characters are treated with respect and plot arcs are given closure. And at least in the MCU I think that's something Feige takes pretty seriously. He has made clear that re-telling the same story is not something Marvel has an interest in and that Iron Man's death is final.

Of course you're now going to respond that this doesn't mean Iron Man or other "dead" characters won't appear in films based on the multiverse. And that's true, but I think the whole point of the multiverse is to explore different versions of the same character. If there is another Iron Man, it won't be a RDJ Iron Man, and his story won't be like the Tony we know. Again, it comes back to it being the job of the writers not to endlessly recycle the same characters, but to stretch the definitions of what it means to be a hero. That's something Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse did amazingly well, by exploring what kinds of different characters could still be Spider-Man. Should that movie not exist because it broke the sacred rule of not crossing over universes?

These movies have become the equivalent of cinematic fast food. Sure, it might taste good, but from a nutritional perspective, it's unhealthy crap. You wouldn't go around calling people who have a distaste for unhealthy fast food "old azz sourpusses" and "joy soul suckers".

I like this analogy because debates about fast food involve the same kind of snobbery amongst people who consider it not "real" food. It's fine to go into a restaurant and order a high end steak, but when good quality meat is minced together and put between a bun and combined with fresh vegetables, it becomes "unhealthy". To me a good superhero movie is like a good burger. It's simple but satisfying comfort food that I don't need to eat every day to enjoy and still can be part of a healthy diet.