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I just uncovered why AAA games are declining: developers aren't as good as they used to be
- Thread starter GigaBowser
- Start date
- Opinion Poll Analysis
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Another one of these cringy thread about bla, bla, bla “how gaming used to better in good old days”.
There are great games and there are shitty games just like it used be back then, the only difference is now we have internet/social media which people have much easier way to bit*** about it.
There are great games and there are shitty games just like it used be back then, the only difference is now we have internet/social media which people have much easier way to bit*** about it.
Guilty_AI
Member
Thats a very liberal definition of topping, or rather the article itself is suggesting the show isn't really doing well.
Its another poorly written and produced show that only manages to get any sort of relevance because of its famous IP, i don't know why you're even bothering trying to stand up to it.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I'm just picturing running backs in 1906 complain about the forward pass.
"It's not real football!"
"It's not real football!"
Captain Toad
Banned
IlGialloMondadori
Member
It’s a silly sitcommy show targeted at women. It’s not that big of a deal if you don’t love it.
Guilty_AI
Member
Can't be any women since the average women has good taste
Oof85
Member
How much of this admittedly beautiful imagery is actually interactive though?Frikken Genius.
Its Wokeness fault
Women and Minorities always spoiling Game development.
Some recent-ish works by women.
Environment textures, set dressing and shaders
Environment textures and shaders
Concept Art:
Environment textures, shaders and set dressing:
I could go all day.
Preset routes with fixed focus interactivity isn't best in class gameplay, imo.
I will say screw op for attacking women designers/artists/etc when it's not a gendered thing, it's an audience thing.
These glossy corridor games sell so that's what they make.
Thank God for Japanese developers and they're arcadey game design though. Holding up the banner for forward progress.
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SSfox
Member
You can still have a great game with 600 devs, the key is to have the directors, it can be 1,2 or 3, that have a clear vision, and the 600 people staffs will follow, you can of course have devs that gives an opinion or idea, but the final word must always be from the head of the studio and that must have a clear vision of what he/she wants. Or else the final thing will just end being just a bunch of random mishmash
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cireza
Banned
Pretty disappointing post honestly.Another one of these cringy thread about bla, bla, bla “how gaming used to better in good old days”.
There are great games and there are shitty games just like it used be back then, the only difference is now we have internet/social media which people have much easier way to bit*** about it.
Let's turn a blind eye on anyone that says it was better in some form before indeed. This is without a doubt much smarter than having a decent discussion about what has changed and how it could be seen as better before ?
A quick look at the pool results demonstrates that the answer isn't as obvious as some would like us to think. Current AAA games and past "AAA" games are certainly different enough in many aspects for 50% of the voters to think that it was better before...
As an amateur of JRPGs, I am constantly turned over by how modern games in the genre are made, being bloated with a ton of useless stuff to do, checklists to no end, and even dedicated bland dungeons to unlock character skills. This has become ridiculous to no end. We lost something essential in this genre today, and only a handful of big games actually skip all this shit and try to stay close to the roots of what made these games interesting... while before, it was the norm.
People should replay games such as Chrono Trigger, Phantasy Star I to IV, Final Fantasy I to IV, Shining Force games, Luner Sega-CD games etc... and many others. These games did not last for 80+ hours. They were filled with meaningful content and a fast paced story. They weren't checking stupid boxes on how long a game should be, neither were they telling you every 2 seconds what you should do. Back then, buying a weapon in a shop actually offered a meaningful choice to the player.
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Those were literally the first two game folders in my "steal dev work folder". Ive got gigs on gigs of development footage, images and code stealing.
Theres practically no AAA game you could mention that doesnt have a plethora of women developers working on it.
I simply pointed out those two cuz GAF generally seems to love those titles.
Further in the thread I also posted work from Returnal.
And as I said, following alot of developers from many studios including support studios its relatively easy for me to point out that all your favorite games past and present have women devs who made sizeable contributions to the games final design.
So saying women being in development suddenly made games worse is absolute nonsense, there arent many female game directors or lead designers, so we really cant blame them for the perceived shortcomings of modern AAA game design.
For some, I think its just time to move on from this hobby....seemingly everything is trash or woke or "not nextgen" or basic or generally just not good.
If your hobby isnt bringing you pleasure, you should probably just leave that hobby alone.
GAF offtopic might be where people should spend their time if every thread made on GAF Gaming irks them.
captainnapalm
Member
There's definitely some truth in what the OP is saying - you're never going to convince me that men aren't generally better at working on their own inventions, passions and pursuits than women. You see this in movies and TV where so many shows based on things men love have become so awful you can scarcely believe it as writing and production teams have increasingly "diversified".
However, gaming is at least to a certain extent shielded from this because you're always going to need people who are extremely competent both technically and artistically to take charge of making games - which is why to this day most of the highest positions in gaming are still almost all exclusively male.
Unfortunately, one area of gaming where you can more easily get your diversity quotas in is in the writing department, and so again, a lot of things men made for other men to enjoy are now being written by women. Even worse, women with woke, feminist and anti-male agendas.
But you can't just blame women either because these games companies are now filled with weak, ball-less men looking to protect their jobs and positions in life by going along with this nonsense. So men can sometimes be even worse offenders. The main people behind that new Saints Row game were men. The main people behind the Rings of Power TV series are men.
However, gaming is at least to a certain extent shielded from this because you're always going to need people who are extremely competent both technically and artistically to take charge of making games - which is why to this day most of the highest positions in gaming are still almost all exclusively male.
Unfortunately, one area of gaming where you can more easily get your diversity quotas in is in the writing department, and so again, a lot of things men made for other men to enjoy are now being written by women. Even worse, women with woke, feminist and anti-male agendas.
But you can't just blame women either because these games companies are now filled with weak, ball-less men looking to protect their jobs and positions in life by going along with this nonsense. So men can sometimes be even worse offenders. The main people behind that new Saints Row game were men. The main people behind the Rings of Power TV series are men.
delirium trigger
Member
We're gonna learn a lot when GTA 6 eventually comes out.
Oof85
Member
I have no issue with women developers. My post goes out of its way to make that clear.
My query was about the interactivity of those places in game.
That was me coming for AAA game design failures, not women.
Klosshufvud
Member
Instead of crying about women, cry instead of the devastating brain drain of the industry. How big publishers have choked all creative and talented people away due to mismanaged projects, shitty hours and lack of autonomy. The golden age of developers is over. Not because of women, but because big publishers made the conscious decision to replace demanding creative people with minimum wage grunts. The best employee a publisher like Activishit can have is one that keeps his mouth shut and knows his place. And also has a fairly mediocre education as not too be deemed "overqualified" for his job as sheep labor.
The reason why we don't get new Kojimas or Uedas is because the system actively cripples the talented trouble makers and risk takers. This is the future we got post 2008.
The reason why we don't get new Kojimas or Uedas is because the system actively cripples the talented trouble makers and risk takers. This is the future we got post 2008.
Raonak
Banned
Anyone with an ounce of development knowledge knows that games are simply way more complicated to make than before. That's all it really is.
Graphics and optimisation technologies especially have made a workflow so large.
And because of this, it's so expensive to make games that you have to go for things that aren't too risky to break even.
Graphics and optimisation technologies especially have made a workflow so large.
And because of this, it's so expensive to make games that you have to go for things that aren't too risky to break even.
Let me put this in no uncertain terms.
Game-industry has been pushing people out of game-industry for practically as long as it existed. By 1999 (so about 20 years into the industry proper) - people who lasted 5 years or more were considered seasoned veterans. Mainly because so very few ever did, and by and large that had to do with dysfunctional elements of this industry since its conception. And then it all got, much, much worse in the next decade (you are right that 'bloated teams' did not help things - but the ones that got the sharp end of that stick were the developers for most part too).
By the time we reach the so called 'woke' timeline (2016?) most of the people who actually developed(not the 5 names public remembers on the box - those that made-up the teams) your favorite childhood games have likely left the industry(depending on when you grew up), sometimes multiple times over. So no - cancel culture and wokeness hasn't been pushing away talent - the industry has perfected the art of that decades before the term was even coined.
And not only has this been the 'status quo' for decades - a lot of the 'industry leaders' have been fully aware of it throughout, and never cared, because 'fresh talent' is so readily available to grind through.
The other bit is that yes - a lot of the other tech-industry branches pay substantially better, and many of them have real needs for the same type of talent that games 'produce'. While the general dysfunction is just as prevalent in said industries, the better pay is a good added incentive for why many experienced game devs leave as well.
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KellyM
Member
Rieko Kodama from Sega.
Stooky
Member
I’m showing this thread to all the 15+ year vets I’m working with. We’re all having a good laugh 
I wish I had the time debunk some of these statements like ‘vet devs leaving the industry” the truth is the games industry has ballooned and there not enough of us to go around I would say if there was ever a time to get in this industry it would be now
I wish I had the time debunk some of these statements like ‘vet devs leaving the industry” the truth is the games industry has ballooned and there not enough of us to go around I would say if there was ever a time to get in this industry it would be now
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JackSparr0w
Banned
No wonder games suck when 15 year olds are getting hired these days.I’m showing this thread to all the 15+ year vets I’m working with. We’re all having a good laugh
Stooky
Member
To many restrictions 15 year olds to work in the games industry. There are some super talented 15 year olds out there. 15+ year vet here, still in this.
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PonyStation4
Member
Assuming each booklet cost 15 cents, that cost would be negligible compared to development costs and certainly not affect the sales price of a game. If anything, them removing booklets was huge positive for the environment. Strange behavior to bring something like this up...
Considering inflation and development costs, you do realize even at $70 they're still making far less profit per game than in the past?
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
How is this thread's vote 50% -50%?
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
VFXVeteran never worked in the games industry.
His experience has always been in Visual FX for the movie industry. It's all offline rendering and very different from game development.
vodka-bull
Member
Sounds like you‘re mansplaining!
jayj
Banned
Seems like a lot of talent has left most of these formerly great names. That's probably why they seem like completely different companies these days, because they are completely different. When you got an entirely different group of people working for you, the company culture changes, and when you're in a creative industry like gaming, the talent is literally everything that gives them value.
jayj
Banned
When you lose creative talent, you enter creative bankruptcy.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
No discovery needed. It is known in the corpo world that dev/coding/project leads are in short supply. IT companies are paying huge contracts/salaries to even low-mid tier level talent. It stems across senior coders down to testers even. We have one of the world's largest software companies in Australia and they push work from home, lower hours, potentially 4 day work weeks and all while paying $110K entry salaries for basic IT positions that aren't even hardcore coding. It's nuts and they're hiring over 1,400 staff right now too.
Passion is one thing. Talent and dedication to the craft are two entirely separate things.
Passion is one thing. Talent and dedication to the craft are two entirely separate things.
It's one of the problems, but another major problem is that the western development side is fucking too messy, you have pre plannings that take years only to be scrapped at the full development, you had one X game idea and it turns to Y with the equivalent of a whole game being scrapped in the process, no wonder why they take so long.
jayj
Banned
I think you hit the nail on the head for why gaming communities have fallen on such hard times lately. There's too many bad actors with too loud/large of a presence. I think the problem really exasperated with the corporatization of developers, like all the big name developers got absorbed by big publishers, and the big media outlets got absorbed by big investment groups, so it was only a matter of time until the executive suits started calling all the shots.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
I still don't understand why devs/studios don't plan to release 2-3 games out of the same engine, fuck all tweaks, just go after the content and refining the game experience over the engine and iterations. I see far too much bloat focused on bashing out tech for the sake of it or high end graphics that subjectively miss the mark anyhow, regardless of their tech prowess or performance gains etc. If the direction or art sucks, the tech/game generally aren't fun. It's lovely seeing things like Sony/Xbox partner with so many indie devs, A/AA studios etc, it really gives some innovation and quirkiness with high levels of talent driving the game vision. Honestly, it's a pretty amazing time in gaming right now, reminds me of the golden age of 80s-90s in gaming. Lots of variety and creativity in various genres at the moment.
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
those talented trouble makers are stuck making games as indie or AA publishers, and their games can't ever reach their full potential thanks to being sandbagged by lack of budget.
the saddest part is that's still a better idea than trying to talk to a gigantic publisher and getting bitchslapped with awful hours and low wage
ChorizoPicozo
Member
You say women I say soyboys.
TheNewGuyAtWork
Member
Games are actually getting better... what's this guy talking about, does he not see how much more work goes into these games..., especially now that consoles are more powerful devs want to innovate and take advantage of the power
jayj
Banned
Yeah the problem I got with AA games is how they just aren't that good most of the time. It's like most indie games manage to do something basic really well, but the AA games try to do something more sophisticated, and most of the time they fall short of the kinda games I would have played a decade ago.
Meicyn
Gold Member
bitch please
what part of
did you not understand
sid meiers pirates came out in 1987
its not my fault that you play nothing but aaa titles and then gripe and moan instead of playing the zillion other games on the market
btw games definitely came out incomplete back in the day
two examples
wing commander 2 cost 80 bucks in 1991 which is about 160 bucks in todays money
the speech pack had to be purchased separately for the voice acting which sold for 20 bucks, so thats another 40 bucks in todays money so we are at 200 dollars for the full launch title experience
oh btw the game was prone to crashing so that was neat and no internet to download patches
no problem though later they released special operations 1 which added some new missions which was the past equivalent to dlc and patching but this cost you another 20 bucks or 40 in today money
then they finished it off with special operations 2 which was another 20 bucks or 40 in today money
so in total for the complete wing commander ii experience back in 1992 it would cost you 280 dollars
if you want a console gaming example take a look at sonic the hedgehog 3 which was literally half a game
sonic and knuckles was the other half but thats okay fork over another 60 bucks and you can experience lock on technology
very cool
GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
Okay, I just added this to the OP because White Knights are derailing the thread and making it about something it's not. Problems in the industry go much deeper my friends.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Imo, the talent just isn’t as illustrious as it was in the past. People like Miyamoto, Yu Suzuki, Yuji Naka, Dan Houser, Itagaki, Hideo Kojima, Hironobu Sakaguchi, John Carmack, Keiji Inafune, etc to name a few paved the way for the industry. I don’t really see that anymore from companies especially AAA. Less risks, lack of creativity, less passion, greed everywhere and corporate suits replace artists and visionaries.
In all fairness, games are getting more expensive and complicated as well, but it just seems like gaming is getting more complacent and safe I guess? It’s not as bad as Hollywood, but it’s getting there. Seems like companies now are more worried about maximizing profits at any means necessary instead of trying creating the best games possible. Before it was about getting the best individuals for the job. Now game companies are seemingly more focused only filling in checklists and inclusivity.
In all fairness, games are getting more expensive and complicated as well, but it just seems like gaming is getting more complacent and safe I guess? It’s not as bad as Hollywood, but it’s getting there. Seems like companies now are more worried about maximizing profits at any means necessary instead of trying creating the best games possible. Before it was about getting the best individuals for the job. Now game companies are seemingly more focused only filling in checklists and inclusivity.
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MarkMe2525
Gold Member
Sure there are still some great studio's out there, but I just read a post where someone said game development talent have moved on to other industries or retired and aren't what they used to be,
and it struck me,
they were right
Think about the industry and all the most notable game developers...
Kojima, Itegaki, Miyamoto, Carmack, Mikami, Gabe...
They're all past their primes or outright retired.
What we're left with are a bloated teams of wannabe movie graphic designers who don't know the first thing about making fun games. Add to that cancel culture and wokeness pushing away all of the real talent and replacing them with blue haired smurfs because of equal opportunity, and what we're left with is watered down talent that are giving us crap like Batman: Gotham Knights and Saints Row between remastering and reselling us games from an era where developers actually knew what they were doing.
You know it's a harbinger of doom when Rockstar goes from "toxic frat boy culture" and the Houser brothers,
to this
GTA 6 development slowed partly due to Rockstar reform — report
GTA 6 development is apparently slow-moving due to Rockstar Games' culture reform, which is working towards becoming a "kinder, more progressive company," a recent Bloomberg report has uncovered.www.trueachievements.com
Edit startling new thread development: White Knights, this isn't even aimed at women developers, it's a declaration that publishers are no longer attracting the best talent and assembling the best development teams in general because reasons........
Dude, do you know how many people work for Rockstar? You say this isn't aimed at women developers to then provide a picture of a group of women (that comprises .5% of their employees) as your example of what's wrong with Rockstar.
Sometimes you see what you want to see, and it's obvious who you would like to see as the problem. The problem is you are just out of touch. Games aren't made for you, me, or anyone in this forum anymore. You can accept that fact, or find a new hobby.
Edit: I love how you get called out on your half brain opinion, and it's the "white Knights" fault.
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GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
Gaming culture in general is not fostering games or game development at the same level of quality.Dude, do you know how many people work for Rockstar? You say this isn't aimed at women developers to then provide a picture of a group of women (that comprises .5% of their employees) as your example of what's wrong with Rockstar.
Sometimes you see what you want to see, and it's obvious who you would like to see as the problem. The problem is you are just out of touch. Games aren't made for you, me, or anyone in this forum anymore. You can accept that fact, or find a new hobby.
Edit: I love how you get called out on your half brain opinion, and it's the "white Knights" fault.
The picture was just one example. You're getting bent out of shape about it.
This article about Rockstar is another that was used in the OP.
GTA 6 development slowed partly due to Rockstar reform — report
GTA 6 development is apparently slow-moving due to Rockstar Games' culture reform, which is working towards becoming a "kinder, more progressive company," a recent Bloomberg report has uncovered.www.trueachievements.com
MarkMe2525
Gold Member
You can try to contextualize your example all you want, fact is it was very pointed and specific. It was also really dumb, and not just in a "you're a biggot" type of way, but also from a point of logic.
Your second example is referring to Rockstar placing unrealistic expectations on productivity and hours worked, amongst other things. This in a vacuum of course can effect the timelines of software development, but that can be offset with additional people placed in the project. Truth is, AAA devopment has become an almost impossible task and it's amazing that games such as RDR2 can even be made.
Edit: I find it fitting that you throw the triggered tag at my post considering how triggered you were to see a bunch XX chromosomed people working on video games.
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GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
RDR2 is 4 years old.
Rockstar is not in the even same shape now than they were when that game was made. The staff has changed, the culture has changed, the corporate message, society, censorship. It's a nicer, kinder more gentle company but one that is not making games with the same efficiency.
The proof is in the pudding as they say, and yeah pudding tastes great by AAA gaming is clearly on the decline.
Most people agree with my overall sentiment other than the vocal minority.
jayj
Banned
Nope, 90's was my favorite era because it wasn't like that. Today's indie scene has basically become the epitome of "copy and paste gaming" because I am literally seeing most devs just copying and pasting the same ideas and concepts. AAA has become even worse, arguable creatively bankrupt with few exceptions.
I think budgets is a big part of it. Like I remember early in the PS3/360 generation developers were complaining about how expensive and time consuming it had become to develop HD games, which says that made game development far more complex.
MarkMe2525
Gold Member
What does rdr2 being 4 years old have absolutely anything to do in relation to how I framed rdr2 in my statement??? My statement stands by itself, it was such a complex and monumental project, it's amazing that it and games like it even exist.
Edit: You sure like those triggered tags. Projecting much?
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GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
I brought up how gaming development is different today in 2022 and so is Rockstar because this discussion is about gaming development in 2022 and how it's not as good in 2022.
We haven't seen a game close to being as good as RDR2 this gen.
MarkMe2525
Gold Member
Exactly, my point being that maybe it isn't a lack of industry talent, but that these games are just really hard to make.