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I think Kojima made me reevaluate my stance on physical vs digital ownership of media

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.



After witnessing the uptake of social media censorship in the last few years, I have become more aware of the negative impact of censorship and how it affects me. If you disagree with the negative impact of censorship, then stop reading this thread, you’ll always be happy.

In the linked tweet, Kojima is describing a future in which digital content is censored retroactively to fit the ideals of the predominant culture forces of the future, and this concept made me very afraid.

In the past decade, I’ve preferred digital over physical due to the many benefits that digital formats offer over physical, however, retroactive censorship had never been a consideration in this argument up until today. All of the digital content I “own“ is tied to publishers that again and again have caved to the demands of the dominant cultural voices in pursuit of bigger profits.

While nothing that these publishers have done so far really bothers me (I actually embrace some of this change), due to the evolution of society, the time will come when these publishers and I disagree at a fundamental level.

Obviously, if this scenario occurs, I can opt to not to consume future digital content, but what if the option to consume the digital content I enjoy, the classics of today, is suddenly taken away? What if every digital copy of Halo is suddenly modified to use call the main character “Prime Officer”?

What do you think GAF?
 

reksveks

Member
Buy stuff that I love physically and buy stuff that I am 'trying' digitally, it does mean that I am buying some stuff twice but I am more restricted by my flat size than I am financially.

For PC, I am generally fucked so don't worry too much about it.

Also really not worried about 'the demands of the dominant cultural voices in pursuit of bigger profits.'
 
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Jadsey

Member
What do you think happens when you put a physical copy of Death Stranding in a PS4?

It downloads a digital copy of the game to your console. You're not playing it off the disk.

Since the PS4/Xbox came out, physical collecting is nothing more than a bunch of plastic keys on a shelf. Nothing wrong with that by the way, as it is nice to look at for some people and brings back memories of games played.

But it holds very little value as a means of 'preservation'.
 

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
This is assuming the official digital stores are the only way of obtaining digital media. If the digital media exists in the first place, chances are people will find ways to share it, maybe even more so than physical media. The exception may be streaming of interactive media, where the logic is executed server side, that makes it harder to recreate locally (if it all possible).
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
What do you think happens when you put a physical copy of Death Stranding in a PS4?

It downloads a digital copy of the game to your console. You're not playing it off the disk.

Since the PS4/Xbox came out, physical collecting is nothing more than a bunch of plastic keys on a shelf. Nothing wrong with that by the way, as it is nice to look at for some people and brings back memories of games played.

But it holds very little value as a means of 'preservation'.
You are right, perhaps having a backups strategy is my only option here. Also, voting with my dollar and favoring companies that provide digital copies that do not require internet authentication.
 

reksveks

Member
It’s more or less the same IMO and we had examples of that already with movies (Disney)
You have a bad way of doing it and a good way. Bad ways is just pulling the episode/movie and the good way is just putting a disclaimer at the front of the film.

They already do that on Disney+

Lots of old movies being edited because it was toxic in the current landscape.

Also did it before this current landscape. Disney do it quite often and its probably easier now and more frequently. I rather a disclaimer but I am not too fussed honestly.

 
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Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
They already do that on Disney+

Lots of old movies being edited because it was toxic in the current landscape.
It even happened to Taylor Swift songs on streaming services. The original physical release of her debut album has a line saying something like "I'll tell our friends you're gay" which got changed (presumably to protect her image).
 

8BiTw0LF

Banned
So the guy developing an all-digital cloud game for Xbox, doesn't support digital games?

beverley mitchell hollywood darlings GIF by Pop TV
 

packy34

Member
Well he’s just saying what physical defenders have been saying for 10 years. You don’t own digital.
Yes you do (in the US, at least). There's a reason so many publishers are trying to switch over to service-based games - by law, your purchases are either goods or services, and games being classified as "goods" gives the consumer too many rights that these publishers would rather you didn't have. Namely, the right of actually owning the product.

As for the main point of this topic - Kojima's comments are kind of dumb. We can just as easily lose physical media to infinite different types of damage, decay, loss, theft, etc. There is no catch-all answer for media ownership + preservation.
 
As for the main point of this topic - Kojima's comments are kind of dumb. We can just as easily lose physical media to infinite different types of damage, decay, loss, theft, etc. There is no catch-all answer for media ownership + preservation.
True. CDs and DVDs last a couple decades, Blu-Rays a bit longer. It's not a problem now but it could be one once we're old.
 

Kumomeme

Member
this is what lot of people been saying. imagine what happened with game preserverence if there is no physical copies available.
 

Matt_Fox

Member
Rewind to the early 90s I had a bookshelf full of my favourite movies on VHS - a curated library I'd enjoy until I died. Then DVD came out and my VHS became outdated.

Today with video games you can have a physical copy but thanks to digital delivery that game is constantly made better by patches, updates and DLC.

What I'm saying is that Kojima is taking an extreme glass half empty stance. The number of instances where a game is made better through digital delivery is 10,000 fold those where a game is made worse.
 
What do you think happens when you put a physical copy of Death Stranding in a PS4?

It downloads a digital copy of the game to your console. You're not playing it off the disk.

Since the PS4/Xbox came out, physical collecting is nothing more than a bunch of plastic keys on a shelf. Nothing wrong with that by the way, as it is nice to look at for some people and brings back memories of games played.

But it holds very little value as a means of 'preservation'.

Wait... not sure I'm understanding you here:

When you pop Death Stranding physical copy into the ps4 it plays it off the disc. It doesn't download a copy to play. Just the patches
 

Maogp

Member
Last week I tried one thing. I have a twenty years old cd, Diablo 2 with expansion. I said "let's try to check if I can activate the serial number into Battle.net" and I did it. Well, i was able to redeem my digital copy for my blizzard account, downloaded the game and play it.

If tomorrow I'll be unable to download my games because the digital world will be down for whatever reason downloading games will be last concern tbh.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
I think you have to accept that over time the vessel of delivery won't matter. We talk as though the current connectivity landscape is going to still be the same in many years to come. We're at the start of the journey still looking outwards in reality.

As the internet becomes ubiquitous, free and fast everywhere over time it's going to be impossible to not have devices online. And regardless of if you put the disc in or whatever you won't be able to stop the new version overwriting the original. At some point the workaround being used now is going to cease working for new games.

I don't agree with any sort of retrospective changes but for publishers and marketing it's the ideal world. Very little investment is needed to change existing IPs or slice up exsiting media and then resell it to the new emerging demographics. It's basically what happens. Whe the pendulum swings the other way, they will rerelease all the 'originals' remastered again. It's perfect storm of getting people to beg for a different version of an item to buy while knowing they can handwave any criticism/opposition away as being 'racist/sexist' etc.

It sounds like Kojima is talking more about losing to national cdns that aren't global though, through sanctions, disasters or censorship.
 

kingfey

Banned
Digital is much better, and convenient.

Physical media would be better, if you ignore the 90% of its problem.

1: scratch disc. N1 enemy of your disc.
2: disc breaking down.
3:limited disc production
4: you are only allowed to get what the company produces
5: you have to be lucky, there is store close to you, which sells these disc's.
6: there are no disc for MP, f2p, BR, indie games
7: your disc containes un patched game.
8: good luck getting dlc for your disc.
9: disc distribution have to available in your area.
10: space

These are my issues with physical games. While I have an issues with digital games, such as market shutdown, games being pulled, server crash, its still much better than physical games. All you have to worry is your internet and storage. No more disc scratches or being broken, which stops your game. Turn on your device, connect to the internet, and you are good to go.
 

supernova8

Banned
What do you think happens when you put a physical copy of Death Stranding in a PS4?

It downloads a digital copy of the game to your console. You're not playing it off the disk.

Since the PS4/Xbox came out, physical collecting is nothing more than a bunch of plastic keys on a shelf. Nothing wrong with that by the way, as it is nice to look at for some people and brings back memories of games played.

But it holds very little value as a means of 'preservation'.

Not sure about DS (didn't play it) but I've noticed for an increasing number of games (from PS4/XB1 of course because people's internet connections are such that it isn't necessarily weird to download a 10GB update file) there is often some sort of game-breaking/enjoyment-ruining bug that requires a day-one patch. I understand that publishers want to get the game out ASAP so they recoup their investments but it also seems like a convenient way to block out game piracy. If you ship a game essentially broken then practically nobody (at least on console, that is) could ever pirate your game because the un-patched version wouldn't be worth bothering.
 
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In the linked tweet, Kojima is describing a future in which digital content is censored retroactively to fit the ideals of the predominant culture forces of the future, and this concept made me very afraid.

You'll always be a have-not if you cling to consumer goods.
They can't censor your thoughts, so cultivate your mind.

That is pure freedom.
 



After witnessing the uptake of social media censorship in the last few years, I have become more aware of the negative impact of censorship and how it affects me. If you disagree with the negative impact of censorship, then stop reading this thread, you’ll always be happy.

In the linked tweet, Kojima is describing a future in which digital content is censored retroactively to fit the ideals of the predominant culture forces of the future, and this concept made me very afraid.

In the past decade, I’ve preferred digital over physical due to the many benefits that digital formats offer over physical, however, retroactive censorship had never been a consideration in this argument up until today. All of the digital content I “own“ is tied to publishers that again and again have caved to the demands of the dominant cultural voices in pursuit of bigger profits.

While nothing that these publishers have done so far really bothers me (I actually embrace some of this change), due to the evolution of society, the time will come when these publishers and I disagree at a fundamental level.

Obviously, if this scenario occurs, I can opt to not to consume future digital content, but what if the option to consume the digital content I enjoy, the classics of today, is suddenly taken away? What if every digital copy of Halo is suddenly modified to use call the main character “Prime Officer”?

What do you think GAF?


That's kind of already happening. We're seeing content be removed or altered on a whim. Most common example is licensed content. Its peoples own problem when they entrust publishers with not meddling in the content of their bought product. Digital only products have made that absurdly easy for them. It might become more prevalent with time till it becomes a non-issue in the public space.
 
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Mackers

Member
Wait... not sure I'm understanding you here:

When you pop Death Stranding physical copy into the ps4 it plays it off the disc. It doesn't download a copy to play. Just the patches

No, it copies the contents of the disc onto the internal storage, then downloads patches as it needs to. The disc is only used as DRM from that point forward, the game doesn't play off of the disc.
 

Ballthyrm

Member
I have two issue with digital ownership but they aren't the one people necessarily think of.

The first problem with digital ownership is the total absence of archiving.
It's already a problem with physical media and it's going to be even more of a problem with digital.
It's been proven time and again that we can't trust corporation to do it, it provide them with zero revenue and it's a recurring cost (low in principle, but they don't give a shit)
So we will lose digital games even faster than physical ones.

The second bigger problem I think has to do with the crazy copyright laws that never ends.
Nobody would be complaining about digital ownership if we had acces to the game 20 years after they have been published.
People would keep a digital archive on their own and we could get some wonderfull video game "online museum"

At the end of the day, I have no issue with the creators of any games keeping control on how THEIR games are distributed.
It's their blood sweat and tears and they should control it. And if they sold it to an evil publisher that doesn't give a shit, it was their choice too.
 
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TrueLegend

Member
Nope. Buy Digital. Get a clean iso from any jack sparrow site. Use it to reduce steam or other game store download time. Keep crack for the day anybody tries to retroactively affect your purchase. You can burn clean iso of definitive edition to any physical media anytime. Buying physical gives you nothing because you still need to get all the updates, some very crucial for game to be in functional status.
 

Ellery

Member
Kojima has predicted the future many times in the past and while some people run with a their eyes closed through life and seemingly can't see it, I think Kojima is right again.
(There are still people out there that don't understand Metal Gear Solid 2)
The question here is not if, but when.

There is no eternal storage though. Everything fades.

But this goes beyond entertainment. Everything is moving away from having people be the actual owner and move towards a renting/subscription based model.
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
I really hope Sony will allow us to download patches to our USB or harddisk, at least if the servers were offline we can still patch our games.
 
No, it copies the contents of the disc onto the internal storage, then downloads patches as it needs to. The disc is only used as DRM from that point forward, the game doesn't play off of the disc.
Sorry yes, it copies it from the disc to the hdd.. so as long as you have the disc you're free to install whatever is on the disc and play it so long as you have the disc in the machine
 

makaveli60

Member
How many of us were telling you guys the same thing for at least a decade? Oh, we are not Kojima, that’s true...
 
How many people still use cartridges to play their Sega games? How many people replay games from 10+ years ago?

Anything physical becomes a huge bother as soon as you want to move to a different place. Digital is way more convenient.
 
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gradient

Resident Cheap Arse
Emulation is a better long term preservation tool than most physical collections.

Stuff break and discs rot.

This isn't always true.

There have been a lot of instances of the available ROMS being bad copies, corrupt or subject to flaws due to how they were captured and the version that was captured. There are still SNES ROMs floating around that contain glitches and flaws not present in the original physical copies. And the problem with that scene is that a single copy will be replicated over and over rather than copies all being unique uploads, so the source diversity is lacking.

Yes, I agree that (ironically) image dumping and emulation prove one of the best means of preservation but they're not without their limitations and still rely on physical copies being around for backup, comparison and as a source of a valid and verifiable historical copy
 
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TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
The first problem with digital ownership is the total absence of archiving.
It's already a problem with physical media and it's going to be even more of a problem with digital.
It's been proven time and again that we can't trust corporation to do it, it provide them with zero revenue and it's a recurring cost (low in principle, but they don't give a shit)
So we will lose digital games even faster than physical ones.
This, those big corporations don't know how to archive, with the exception of the Movie industry.
For example and this is just a small thing.
If you go on to YouTube and find a music video from 10 years ago you'll probably be greeted by a 1080p upscale of a 480p version.
Even though the original released on YouTube in native 1080p 10 year's ago but disappeared for some strange reason (something to do with Vevo merging with YouTube)
Can you imagine if this was the case for all media?
 

Outlier

Member
You will own nothing and be...

In my opinion it would only really matter to those who would want to experience antiquity or something not available through digital means, in the future.

Now I only buy physical copies of games I have strong feelings towards, such as FF and GT.
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
I mean, I think this has been an issue in some form or another since the days of written word. Media can and has censored things before the digital age. Controlling narrative, limiting prints or recalling products. Burning books. Controlling the pace and dissemination of information, and the availability and ease of acquirement of said information - is just as good/bad as holding your purchased/unedited works hostage on a server that could be deleted or restricted at a developer's whim. Twenty years ago, if a company didn't want something of theirs out in the wild, they'd either recall it, cease production, or replace it with a product more in line with their ideas.

Yes, if you had purchased this, it was yours and couldn't be taken away, but by controlling the reproduction, if there were no more copies made or available, on a long enough time frame, bit rot and wear and tear would do what locking something/deleting something from a server does now.

Tl;dr: the form is different, but this has always existed in society. It's not that the technological age is doing this more brazenly or commonly, it's just that with the ease of viewing/owning/consuming content comes likewise the ease of tweaking or editing it. It's a two way street. As one gets more efficient, so too does the other.
 
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