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I was asked my "preferred pronouns" today when making an appointment. First time this has happened in my experience

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CGiRanger

Banned
Jesus fucking christ.

This world is so fucked.

Here is the full 'debate'


I will describe those two creatures as 'it' - they don't deserve any special pandering or any pronouns.

'I think it's really important to create a safe space' - what the fuck are you on about? Are you threatened by the terms he or she?

People with bored lives creating problems that to not exist.

Matt Walsh did a fantastic job here. Bravo.

You can choose to identify as anything you want to. Just don't expect me to partake in your charade.

If I identify as a 'Doctor' or 'Professor', is it reasonable to expect everyone to refer me as one? Fuck no!
I can't even process what I'm seeing here. These people are nothing but narcissism purely distilled and want the world to bend to them.


Like, literally the simple question is "what defines, or what is the meaning of "woman"", and they cannot answer. The best they can do is "woman" means whatever anyone says it does. Which of course is a logical fallacy, since if it means nothing, then why do you care so much about the label to begin with? Or what are you trying to conform with the label?

I can't help but agree with Matt (even though I'm not that fond of him) when he succinctly says "You just want to wear the term "woman" like a costume"
 

strange headache

Fluctuat nec mergitur
It's a fluid term. "Gender" changes from culture to culture. What is "trans" in the United States might just be "straight" in France. What is "straight" in the United States might be "beta-male" in India.

So basically it's a subjective notion that can mean whatever you want it to mean.
If that is the case then you must also accept those who think it's silly.

Like, literally the simple question is "what defines, or what is the meaning of "woman"", and they cannot answer. The best they can do is "woman" means whatever anyone says it does.

One sign of a pseudo-science are willfully convoluted definitions and obfuscated theories to shield pseudo-experts from any sort of criticism. It's pretty much the same with astrology and other such nonsense.
 
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CGiRanger

Banned
So basically it's a subjective notion that can mean whatever you want it to mean.
If that is the case then you must also accept those who think it's silly.



One sign of a pseudo-science are willfully convoluted definitions and obfuscated theories to shield pseudo-experts from any sort of criticism. It's pretty much the same with astrology and other such nonsense.
It's lunacy in one regards, but I also can't help but feel it's well coordinated in others. When you deconstruct terms that have lasted for so long, and destroy language, it makes it easy to control.

But seriously, if you cannot even define what makes a "man" and what makes a "woman", then no language would even matter. It's not as if men cannot act feminine and woman can act masculine as has been the case for so long already. But now it seems we need to create new "categories" for each individual head-case, just to make people feel special.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
But seriously, if you cannot even define what makes a "man" and what makes a "woman", then no language would even matter. It's not as if men cannot act feminine and woman can act masculine as has been the case for so long already. But now it seems we need to create new "categories" for each individual head-case, just to make people feel special.

This is the most insightful part of that Dr Phil discussion.

What we have heard
- Woman ≠ biological female / female genitalia
- Women = someone who identifies as a woman

What we have not heard
- What is the concept of ‘woman’ to identify with? What does it mean? Is it a way if behaving? A way of dressing? A way of thinking? What kind of a way? Is it a societal box?

So far, we have only heard that woman is a label you are allowed to identify as, even though it is not defined what that label means. So it seems to be hardly more than a label.

Hence, the dream society for the trans activists is that the rules of who competes in what sport, or uses which changing room, are defined by the label you identify with, not your biological sex.

It would be helpful to understand *what* are the specific aspects of ‘woman-ness’ that constitute a ‘woman’.
 
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I_D

Member
So basically it's a subjective notion that can mean whatever you want it to mean.
If that is the case then you must also accept those who think it's silly.



One sign of a pseudo-science are willfully convoluted definitions and obfuscated theories to shield pseudo-experts from any sort of criticism. It's pretty much the same with astrology and other such nonsense.

I disagree that "gender" can mean - as you put it - "whatever you want it to mean," because to agree with you would mean that somebody could say "gender" means "to ride a bus," and I would be supporting that, which I do not.

Yet, presuming I understand the context of your response, you're using it more to mean something like "anywhere on the spectrum of masculine and feminine," in which case I would agree with you; and that it's a relatively silly thing to define.

People becoming upset about pronouns is indeed silly. The people who incorrectly insist that there are only "two genders," however, are factually wrong; which is not silly. And when they use this factually-wrong belief to try governing how others live, that is very not silly.


Thus, I agree with you while also disagreeing with you. Also thus, verbose definitions should not be mistaken with convoluted definitions.
And this was just a response to a grammar situation. Something as intricate as the spectrum of gender is going to require far more writing.

And then something as intricate as responding to a factually-wrong claim via the use of actual facts which will be denied by the ignorant person who originally stated the untrue 'fact,' is going to require so much writing that it's hardly even worth the effort.
And, since this mode of conversation relies solely on text, the language itself will require specificity, which could appear as "convolution" to the unlearned eye.


So again, I agree that it's silly.
But I do not agree with that this is anywhere near something as provably-wrong as astrology, unless you're saying that it's as ridiculous as people who claim there are only two genders; in which case I will agree with you.
 

jason10mm

Member
The rigid concept of "male" and "female" is so blatantly obvious and verifiable in virtually every order of mammal, bird, or reptile, you have to drop down to some pretty low animal classifications like amphibians or fish before you see anything like a true transgender organism. Even most insects adhere to a binary sexual dimorphism.

About the only exception to the rule is a human born with testosterone insensitivity, so they are genetically male but have almost complete female secondary sexual development and external genitalia. Only an invasive examination or advanced testing will reveal the truth and most probably never even know.

THAT is transgender.

What we see on social media today are males and females doping on sex hormones and surgically altering themselves to RESEMBLE the opposite sex. No human can actually transform themselves to the opposite sex, they can only imitate an approximation of it.

Don't cave in to this lunacy. Respect people as individuals, don't succum to a social media propagated mass delusion.
 

lillars

Member
Thankfully I've never been asked that. I always laugh at people who state the obvious on their LinkedIn profiles or email signatures just to virtue signal.
 

I_D

Member
Aren’t hermaphrodites widely accepted as a third gender because they are made up of both?

I don't know about "widely," but I could see why some would think that.

I don't think a birth-defect constitutes a separate sex (not gender) in the same way that being born with an extra chromosome does not constitute a separate species.
I could be wrong, though. Maybe it is a separate sex.

And it could easily be considered a separate gender - hermaphroditism easily fits within the definitions of "gender."



The rigid concept of "male" and "female" is so blatantly obvious and verifiable in virtually every order of mammal, bird, or reptile, you have to drop down to some pretty low animal classifications like amphibians or fish before you see anything like a true transsexual organism. Even most insects adhere to a binary sexual dimorphism.

About the only exception to the rule is a human born with testosterone insensitivity, so they are genetically male but have almost complete female secondary sexual development and external genitalia. Only an invasive examination or advanced testing will reveal the truth and most probably never even know.

THAT is transsexual.

What we see on social media today are males and females doping on sex hormones and surgically altering themselves to RESEMBLE the opposite sex. No human can actually transform themselves to the opposite sex, they can only imitate an approximation of it.

Don't cave in to this lunacy. Respect people as individuals, don't succum to a social media propagated mass delusion.

FTFY. The rest of what you said is accurate, other than the "delusion" part.



They, them, Legion. You know, plural nouns for a singular person.

This isn't created by braindead narcissists with mental disorders. Not at all.

This particular issue is created by a limitation of the English language. We don't have a word for "him/her."

Trans people tried to create a word to alleviate this issue, and then people freaked out about it.
So then trans people just adopted a word that already existed, and now people are freaking out about that, too.

Which is ironic, since those same people are insisting that "gender" means the same thing as "sex."
They won't adopt new words, they get mad that words are usurped, then they insist that same words mean something entirely wrong.
There's no pleasing them.
 
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jason10mm

Member
Aren’t hermaphrodites widely accepted as a third gender because they are made up of both?
I don't think there is any case of a true hermaphrodite human, I.e. has both sex organs and gonads, thus can bear children AND sire them on others. These extremely rare developmental malformations demonstrate the fundamental binary sex of mammals.

It's like finding a kid born with only one eye (cyclopia) and using them as an example that humans are actually have a spectrum of vision, binocular vision is just the "cis heteronormative" social construct and that blinding oneself or removing just a single eye is "transvisionism" or something.

There are disorders where folks want to cut off limbs or perform other mutilation to themselves to satisfy a mental or organic disease state.
 

CGiRanger

Banned
There are disorders where folks want to cut off limbs or perform other mutilation to themselves to satisfy a mental or organic disease state.
What's really sad are the voices of those who've gone through with this, only to realize how much worse off they are after the fact, are routinely silenced and condemned by the so-called "empathetic" people who promote these crazy ideas.
 

jason10mm

Member
FTFY. The rest of what you said is accurate, other than the "delusion" part.
NO, gender is a bullshit word that tries to confound the inherently obvious and clearly demonstrable fact that mammals have only two options, male or female. Anything else is a rare developmental aberration.

I suspect that future historians will attribute this period of apparent increase in "transgenderism" to a combination of environmental toxicity and psychosocial manipulation paired with pharmaceutical and surgical capabilities to actually execute the cosmetic changes.

If, in the future, you can inject yourself with some sort of CRISPR vector that hacks your X or Y chromosomes to allow for somatic cell change for full male or female phenotypic expression then this might be a different discussion as it may become impossible to tell what the "birth sex" is.

But there would still be just two options, male or female. *

*no doubt a true hermaphrodite or quadruple penised, 5 vagina option would be available at this tech level :p
 

navii

My fantasy is that my girlfriend was actually a young high school girl.
I just want baristas to spell my name right on the coffee cup.
 
Then you wonder why America is getting "owned" by China, which will no doubt happen within the next couple of decades; Discussing the sex of the Angels while serious economic, social and environmental problems are swept under the rug, is revelatory of what the leading class concentrates on (Media, academics, entertainment, big corporations...), precisely to obfuscate the real, tangible issues that they have no intention of ever tackling, until this whole freaking carnaval burns to the ground.
Anway, I identify as a dog, so you may use the pronoun "Woof" to address me.
 
I don't know about "widely," but I could see why some would think that.

I don't think a birth-defect constitutes a separate sex (not gender) in the same way that being born with an extra chromosome does not constitute a separate species.
I could be wrong, though. Maybe it is a separate sex.

And it could easily be considered a separate gender - hermaphroditism easily fits within the definitions of "gender."





FTFY. The rest of what you said is accurate, other than the "delusion" part.





This particular issue is created by a limitation of the English language. We don't have a word for "him/her."

Trans people tried to create a word to alleviate this issue, and then people freaked out about it.
So then trans people just adopted a word that already existed, and now people are freaking out about that, too.

Which is ironic, since those same people are insisting that "gender" means the same thing as "sex."
They won't adopt new words, they get mad that words are usurped, then they insist that same words mean something entirely wrong.
There's no pleasing them.
what did I just read then
 

KyoZz

Gold Member
Jesus fucking christ.

This world is so fucked.

Here is the full 'debate'


I will describe those two creatures as 'it' - they don't deserve any special pandering or any pronouns.

'I think it's really important to create a safe space' - what the fuck are you on about? Are you threatened by the terms he or she?

People with bored lives creating problems that to not exist.

Matt Walsh did a fantastic job here. Bravo.

You can choose to identify as anything you want to. Just don't expect me to partake in your charade.

If I identify as a 'Doctor' or 'Professor', is it reasonable to expect everyone to refer me as one? Fuck no!


DAMN YOU FOR NOT WARNING US AOUT THAT SCREAMER !
 

I_D

Member
what did I just read then

Two words with a slash in the middle, which is really awkward to say in ordinary conversation?

"Hey, look at that guy over there!"
"Hey, look at that girl over there!"
"Hey, look at that guy slash girl over there!"

We don't have an easy word for the third option.
Mind you, in my specific example, you could just use the word "person," but that's not always a solution.



NO, gender is a bullshit word that tries to confound the inherently obvious and clearly demonstrable fact that mammals have only two options, male or female. Anything else is a rare developmental aberration.

You're talking about physical characteristics. You're falling victim to the etymological fallacy.

Gender is not physical, it's mental (well, it is physical because all brain activity is physical, but that's a whole other topic).


Of course a person's mental state is affected by sexual characteristics, but they are not the same thing.
 

jason10mm

Member
You're talking about physical characteristics. You're falling victim to the etymological fallacy.

Gender is not physical, it's mental (well, it is physical because all brain activity is physical, but that's a whole other topic).
If you believe this then the "I identify as an attack helicopter" argument is 100% true because it is all a mental state of mind with no relation to physical or biological attributes. Do you agree?
 
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I_D

Member
If you believe this then the "I identify as an attack helicopter" argument is 100% true because it is all a mental state of mind with no relation to physical or biological attributes. Do you agree?

If it wasn't satire, it would be fine.

As it is, it belittles the point that trans people are trying to make, which is that being called "she" or "he" when you feel like the opposite is annoying, and it's really not that tough to just call people by how they want to be called.
 

p_xavier

Authorized Fister
I don't know about "widely," but I could see why some would think that.

I don't think a birth-defect constitutes a separate sex (not gender) in the same way that being born with an extra chromosome does not constitute a separate species.
I could be wrong, though. Maybe it is a separate sex.

And it could easily be considered a separate gender - hermaphroditism easily fits within the definitions of "gender."





FTFY. The rest of what you said is accurate, other than the "delusion" part.





This particular issue is created by a limitation of the English language. We don't have a word for "him/her."

Trans people tried to create a word to alleviate this issue, and then people freaked out about it.
So then trans people just adopted a word that already existed, and now people are freaking out about that, too.

Which is ironic, since those same people are insisting that "gender" means the same thing as "sex."
They won't adopt new words, they get mad that words are usurped, then they insist that same words mean something entirely wrong.
There's no pleasing them.
FFS, there's already IT which is singular. Should we blame female lions because they follow the male lion patriarchy and it's toxic? Gendered meant sex for thousands of years. It's a mental illness and delusion based in marxist oppression where every outcome should be the same, regardless of the input yet I've never seen a valid argument. Transexuals I respect because there's a physiological ramification of it. Transgender? Fuck that, nothing based in science. There was also thee, thy as singular pronouns which at least didn't confuse the rest of normal human beings.

 
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Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
If it wasn't satire, it would be fine.

As it is, it belittles the point that trans people are trying to make, which is that being called "she" or "he" when you feel like the opposite is annoying, and it's really not that tough to just call people by how they want to be called.

No. The Apache Helicopter joke was done in order to mock “other kin”. Then brain dead cunts who can’t understand context tried to claim it was mocking/insulting trans people.
 

jason10mm

Member
If it wasn't satire, it would be fine.
Who are YOU to be the arbiter of someone's psychological state?

If someone tells me they identify as an AH-64 Apache Longbow or a Mi-24 Hind who am I (or you) to say otherwise? Even if all biological evidence indicates otherwise how can I dispute their feelings?

You see the logical fallacy here, right? While I understand the plight of folks in this linguistic predicament and we certainly have folks here on GAF I would address as their preferred gender with no reservation or hint of sarcasam the undeniable truth is that this gender discussion leads straight to ridiculous stuff like identifying as alligators or unicorns which is essentially as ludicrous as identifying as a sex you clearly are not.
 
Two words with a slash in the middle, which is really awkward to say in ordinary conversation?

"Hey, look at that guy over there!"
"Hey, look at that girl over there!"
"Hey, look at that guy slash girl over there!"

We don't have an easy word for the third option.
Mind you, in my specific example, you could just use the word "person," but that's not always a solution.





You're talking about physical characteristics. You're falling victim to the etymological fallacy.

Gender is not physical, it's mental (well, it is physical because all brain activity is physical, but that's a whole other topic).


Of course a person's mental state is affected by sexual characteristics, but they are not the same thing.
If its a guy, you say he, if it's a girl, you say her, if you know it's name, say it.

A solution looking for a problem. There never was an issue. All this is doing is encouraging the spiral into insanity that is validating someone is trapped in the wrong body. You will never fix that mindset, it is a toxic idea if encouraged will only lead to self mutilation and suicide. It's called gender dysphoria and the DSM and Psychology at large will look at this point in history as a dark time where people were encouraged to destroy their bodys and minds.
 
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Barath

Banned
Onus is on you to provide evidence to the contrary.
ok



 
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Mistake

Member
ok



You must admit though, it’s hard to tell truth from fiction in today’s clown world :messenger_grinning_smiling:
Watch it happen now that the idea is out there
 
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The whole gender ideology is such nonsense. One key thing here is no man will ever know what it means to "feel" like a woman as they will never be one. Just like a man will never know what being a woman feels like. Matt Walsh (though isn't he otherwise a right winger?) is on point in the Dr Phil bit, just exposes how contradictory and meaningless the whole thing is. Any time you try to question it, whether it's from TRAs, or some trans folks who somehow believe they've magically changed sex, you get called a transphobe, or you get fired from your job (happening to many, especially academics, and also medical professionals who have worked with trans people and are raising the alarm about safeguarding children and the use of puberty blockers). And everytime, there's not a coherent answer on the other side.
 
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Jorav

Member

I don't mind using peoples pronouns, whatever floats your goat. I feel the above are the crazies and sadly the ones who are beating the biggest drums for their own gratification/benefit. I know some trans people who are just want to transition without drama and they are chill about the whole thing and like to joke about it.
 

Barath

Banned
The whole gender ideology is such nonsense. One key thing here is no man will ever know what it means to "feel" like a woman as they will never be one. Just like a man will never know what being a woman feels like. Matt Walsh (though isn't he otherwise a right winger?) is on point in the Dr Phil bit, just exposes how contradictory and meaningless the whole thing is. Any time you try to question it, whether it's from TRAs, or some trans folks who somehow believe they've magically changed sex, you get called a transphobe, or you get fired from your job (happening to many, especially academics, and also medical professionals who have worked with trans people and are raising the alarm about safeguarding children and the use of puberty blockers). And everytime, there's not a coherent answer on the other side.
It’s none of your business. Period the end. It’s none of your business to tell them who they can and can’t be. That is up to each individual. Telling them they can’t is basically denying they exist. That’s not your right to say that.

And if you do then YES you are a transphobe for telling someone trying to be who they want to be that they can’t. It’s not your place. Period.
 
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There are plenty of trans people who just want to live their lives without being bothered, that's just fine.

It is my business though when young children get caught up in this ideology and get pushed into life altering, impossible to reverse, changes, and when things like self ID are opening up single sex spaces to anyone. It's happening all over the place.

There's no "period the end". Either you don't know about those issues or you're like so many other TRAs who say "never happens" and are burying your heads in the sand in the name of "kindness", and are willing to let that slide.
 

gradient

Resident Cheap Arse
It’s none of your business. Period the end. It’s none of your business to tell them who they can and can’t be. That is up to each individual. Telling them they can’t is basically denying they exist. That’s not your right to say that.

And if you do then YES you are a transphobe for telling someone trying to be who they want to be that they can’t. It’s not your place. Period.

But it is his business when they insist on him or anyone other than themselves adopting and engaging in that person's personal beliefs.
 
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IDKFA

Gold Member
There are plenty of trans people who just want to live their lives without being bothered, that's just fine.

It is my business though when young children get caught up in this ideology and get pushed into life altering, impossible to reverse, changes, and when things like self ID are opening up single sex spaces to anyone. It's happening all over the place.

There's no "period the end". Either you don't know about those issues or you're like so many other TRAs who say "never happens" and are burying your heads in the sand in the name of "kindness", and are willing to let that slide.

We're getting slightly off topic here, but I agree with what you said.

Nobody is saying trans people shouldn't exist (unless you're a complete bigot) and Trans people should have the same rights and privileges as anybody else in society. I think we can all agree on that.

However, like yourself I'm very concerned about how young children are being pulled into this. A young child cannot make life changing decisions on their own. That's what parents are there for. Yet, we're now living in a world where groups are encouraging children to take puberty blockers and telling the parents to either agree, otherwise their child will kill themselves and/or the parents get labeled as transphobic.

It's insane and quite frankly, absolutely evil that we're allowing this to happen to children.
 
Perhaps a bit off topic, but I think it's important to be said, and you said it all IDKFA, lawsuits are starting to happen in the US, Keira Bell is also such an example in the UK. It's all a smoke screen, the stats about suicide are completely manipulated. In fact, suicidal ideation often increases after transition. Detransitioners (more and more of them) are silenced, told they were never trans, many don't even come forward and there's little follow up on so many who do transition.

Puberty blockers were also not meant for that use, are experimental and cannot be reversed. So many kids have no understanding of what they're signing up for, any kind of therapy is considered as conversion therapy in several countries, and they're put on those blockers after a handful of meetings. A lot of them also end up growing out of their dysphoria to simply be gay or lesbian adults. And the health consequences for those who do transition? Jesus christ.

Criminal what is being done indeed.
 
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hemo memo

Member
This is the most insightful part of that Dr Phil discussion.

What we have heard
- Woman ≠ biological female / female genitalia
- Women = someone who identifies as a woman

What we have not heard
- What is the concept of ‘woman’ to identify with? What does it mean? Is it a way if behaving? A way of dressing? A way of thinking? What kind of a way? Is it a societal box?

So far, we have only heard that woman is a label you are allowed to identify as, even though it is not defined what that label means. So it seems to be hardly more than a label.

Hence, the dream society for the trans activists is that the rules of who competes in what sport, or uses which changing room, are defined by the label you identify with, not your biological sex.

It would be helpful to understand *what* are the specific aspects of ‘woman-ness’ that constitute a ‘woman’.

“You can’t magically change your gender. You can’t magically change your sex. You can’t magically change your age”
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
You should look up the definition of gender then. And also look up sex. Cause there is actually a range depending on what chromosomes are where.

Easy, tiger.

While you’re right to point out that gender can be regarded as fluid (social construct etc.), and that we should respect what someone wishes to call themselves… you’re wrong on sex. While it’s true that intersex people exist, it’s an incredibly small amount, and can be considered a biological aberration, rather than in any way representative of the norm.

The biggest issue the trans community have that bars them from widespread acceptance, is the same science denial due to doctrine and ideology that successfully ostracises the religious far right.

Nothing will get better all the time there is a refusal to accept biological, scientific reality.

Champion gender fluidity and pronoun use all you like, but quit the science denial. It doesn’t help your cause.
 
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Gosh, I hate that right wingers are often the ones calling this out. :D Why is that?

FunkMiller FunkMiller : and experts in the field have explained at length why the argument "but intersex people !" is an absolute fallacy.
 
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What's really sad are the voices of those who've gone through with this, only to realize how much worse off they are after the fact, are routinely silenced and condemned by the so-called "empathetic" people who promote these crazy ideas.
They're called the "fifty percenters" for a very sad reason.
 

OZ9000

Member
Perhaps a bit off topic, but I think it's important to be said, and you said it all IDKFA, lawsuits are starting to happen in the US, Keira Bell is also such an example in the UK. It's all a smoke screen, the stats about suicide are completely manipulated. In fact, suicidal ideation often increases after transition. Detransitioners (more and more of them) are silenced, told they were never trans, many don't even come forward and there's little follow up on so many who do transition.

Puberty blockers were also not meant for that use, are experimental and cannot be reversed. So many kids have no understanding of what they're signing up for, any kind of therapy is considered as conversion therapy in several countries, and they're put on those blockers after a handful of meetings. A lot of them also end up growing out of their dysphoria to simply be gay or lesbian adults. And the health consequences for those who do transition? Jesus christ.

Criminal what is being done indeed.
It's interesting how we assume children have a rational understanding of life changing decisions such as this when the prefrontal cortex does not fully develop until your 20s.

None of this is driven by science but rather emotional peddling towards an overly sensitive and mentally ill crowd.
 
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