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If a racing game is seen as GOTY quality and then why isn't it rewarded as such?

CeeJay

Member
It' sad that there are so many people who disregard games as GOTY material simply because they don't have a good story. This is GAMES that we are talking about not movies... The one thing that sets any game apart from a movie or a book is that they are playable, to be a game it has to be playable. Yet when it comes to GOTY awards all of a sudden that number one most important differentiator goes out the window and we all of a sudden have to have narrative, story, interesting and deep characters.

To first be nominated for GOTY a game should first be the best in its own genre by some margin. Then each game judged by how it excels in the context of the genre it's in, how much of a technical and genre defining experience and by how much it moves that genre forward. The game that is strongest using these markers is the GOTY.

Games should be celebrated and given accolades for what they are, GAMES! Not given the accolades because they are the most like other mediums of entertainment they are trying to copy.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Not entirely, not as many people play Racing games as they do the big AAA Story Games or big Multiplayer Shooters so it's clear that it won't get as many voices screaming for it to be on the polls.
But thats exactly what you are describing, being "too niche" basically means it's not popular enough for GOTY. Only popular games are considered for GOTY nomination.
 

DonJorginho

Banned
But thats exactly what you are describing, being "too niche" basically means it's not popular enough for GOTY. Only popular games are considered for GOTY nomination.
That's the same for everything though awards related.

If something doesn't get the buzz it doesn't get the nominations.

Not trying to say I'm fine with it, I wish it was different, I'm talking to those who are screaming it's a conspiracy of some sorts.
 

Robb

Gold Member
I don’t think it’d be weird for a sports title or simulator to win GOTY given that they are outstanding. My guess is that the issue is that few people actually play them relative to other games in other genres and/or feel like they were impactful/memorable that year.

GOTY awards are essentially a popularity vote. The games that were outstanding AND that were played by a large number of people will most likely win since people likely won’t vote for games they haven’t played.

Flight Sim could be the best game in its genre ever and the best game this year overall (not saying it is, just an example), but I can’t see many people voting for that. I wouldn’t vote for it at least.
 

Schmick

Member
It actually sucks that a game must have a story to be even considered for GOTY. Its also sucks that many gamers here seem to advocate this idea.

As much as I like a good story in a game (currently playing through TLoU2) there are other game types out there that do a damn good job at being a 'game'. For me, the at most important thing in a game is 'gameplay'. I've had some of the best experiences in 'other' games because the gameplay has been so well refined and implemented. A lot of those games are online coop orientated

I'm seeing a lot of comments asking, why would you care if a game is rewarded GOTY. Well, actually, in all honesty I don't. But the developers might. Its about earning the recognition within the industry you are working in and deserving it.
 

xiseerht

Member
Racing games, real time strategy, fighting games, mech games, space sims, etc. This forum doesn't even fucking discuss Warhammer 2-3 Total War and it's one of the best competitive and unit-rich RTS games I've ever played.

It's all a long list of variety that just doesn't seem to be in the public eye anymore. Everyone just wants shooters or some bland openworld crap like sameysoft. I'm glad some brave souls out there still invest in and try new things.
Man , you nailed it. Those types of games never get a chance to win the big Game of the Year awards. And they should. You are right about the Warhammer Total War games. These are some of the best games that have come out over the decade .
 

DonJorginho

Banned
Yep, it's a joke. Forza Horizon 1 should have been GOTY in 2012 and Horizon 3 in 2016. I won't let anyone tell me otherwise.
2012: Dishonored, Borderlands 2, Far Cry 3, The Walking Dead, Max Payne 3 all say hello.

2016: Persona 5, Dishonored 2, Uncharted 4, Inside, Dark Souls III all say hello.
 
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xiseerht

Member
2012: Dishonored, Borderlands 2, Far Cry 3, The Walking Dead, Max Payne 3 all say hello.

2016: Persona 5, Dishonored 2, Uncharted 4, Inside, Dark Souls III all say hello.
I am totally ok with having Forza Horizon 3 go against those games in 2016. The Hot Wheels DLC expansion is still in my top ten DLC Expansions of all time for any game made. . Also Dishonored was better than The Walking Dead in 2012. But I understand why Walking Dead won ( which I did love that game too). We were in a strong indie push at that time if I remember.
 
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DonJorginho

Banned
I am totally ok with having Forza Horizon 3 go against those games in 2016. The Hot Wheels DLC expansion is still in my top ten DLC Expansions of all time for any game made. . Also Dishonored was better than The Walking Dead in 2012. But I understand why Walking Dead won ( which I did love that game too). We were in a strong indie push at that time if I remember.
Oh I'm not saying it shouldn't be up there, just saying it isn't a clean sweep like the user I was replying to thought.
 

xiseerht

Member
Oh I'm not saying it shouldn't be up there, just saying it isn't a clean sweep like the user I was replying to thought.
Oh yeah... I get what you are saying. It is not a clear cut . That is very true. But if I remember , it was not even nominated at all. ( For the big award I mean, I know it won Racing Game of the Year or Sports game of the year )
 

DonJorginho

Banned
Oh yeah... I get what you are saying. It is not a clear cut . That is very true. But if I remember , it was not even nominated at all. ( For the big award I mean, I know it won Racing Game of the Year or Sports game of the year )
I can't remember, was robbed if so.
 
It' sad that there are so many people who disregard games as GOTY material simply because they don't have a good story. This is GAMES that we are talking about not movies... The one thing that sets any game apart from a movie or a book is that they are playable, to be a game it has to be playable. Yet when it comes to GOTY awards all of a sudden that number one most important differentiator goes out the window and we all of a sudden have to have narrative, story, interesting and deep characters.

To first be nominated for GOTY a game should first be the best in its own genre by some margin. Then each game judged by how it excels in the context of the genre it's in, how much of a technical and genre defining experience and by how much it moves that genre forward. The game that is strongest using these markers is the GOTY.

Games should be celebrated and given accolades for what they are, GAMES! Not given the accolades because they are the most like other mediums of entertainment they are trying to copy.
NGL this comment is baffling. RPGs are often lauded for their banter, characters, plot, and worldbuilding. When a game lacks these or doesn’t do these well, people lament their exclusion. Secondly, are you going to say something like Mass Effect or say, Bioshock doesn’t meet the criteria of being gameplay-driven whilst still having strong narrative elements?

Those GOTY qualifiers seem damn near impossible to live up to. How often do you get once in a generation game? Maybe every few years? 5? More? Most importantly, your last paragraph is kind of disjointed from your first because you said it -games should be celebrated for what they are. Games are a fusion of storytelling(which isn’t one-size-fits-all), audio, and gameplay. That’s what GOTY is all about.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Games should be celebrated and given accolades for what they are, GAMES! Not given the accolades because they are the most like other mediums of entertainment they are trying to copy.

Its not that, its precisely what I said in my last post: Its about giving credit for ambition and achievement. Specifically in regards to how many potential pitfalls need to be successfully negotiated to produce a "complete" success.

Its like difficulty in a performance sport. If you do two things perfectly, you are always going to come up short in the scoring against someone who does three or more things really well.
 

Moses85

Member
I bet that it wont happen that a Racing Game will get a GOTY status.


giphy.gif
 

Markio128

Member
I mean, I honestly don’t really care too much about which game wins GOTY. It has no effect on how I view games, which is only down to my own enjoyment. FH5 does look great visually, but to me, it looks like FH4 with a fresh wrapper, similar to the recent FC 6. That isn’t to say I am not enjoying FC 6, because I am (quite a lot actually), and I am sure I will enjoy FH5 too, which is the most important thing. Too much emphasis is put on reviews and awards.
 

CeeJay

Member
NGL this comment is baffling. RPGs are often lauded for their banter, characters, plot, and worldbuilding. When a game lacks these or doesn’t do these well, people lament their exclusion. Secondly, are you going to say something like Mass Effect or say, Bioshock doesn’t meet the criteria of being gameplay-driven whilst still having strong narrative elements?

Those GOTY qualifiers seem damn near impossible to live up to. How often do you get once in a generation game? Maybe every few years? 5? More? Most importantly, your last paragraph is kind of disjointed from your first because you said it -games should be celebrated for what they are. Games are a fusion of storytelling(which isn’t one-size-fits-all), audio, and gameplay. That’s what GOTY is all about.
That's not what I was saying. I was saying that currently to be a GOTY it seems like a game has to have those character driven mechanics with plot, story and narrative to even be considered. It doesn't mean I think the opposite and they shouldn't be considered at all, far from it. A Mass Effect or Bioshock are certainly worthy GOTY contenders and rightly so. What I am saying is that a GOTY should be something that a great game can win regardless of the genre that it comes from. The criteria I mentioned are far from impossible to live up to, its just a case of judging any particular game against it's peers in the context of the genre it's in for that particular year. So, you would have all the different categories for stuff like simulation, action, rpg, racing, sports, best music, best art etc. and then the winner for each goes on to face off for GOTY. Instead we tend to see the GOTY shortlists mostly coming from the story driven action categories.

Your definition of what a game is (the highlighted) is to restrictive and you are automatically ruling out many great games. Tetris for example is a great game that has stood the test of time but by your definition it doesn't even meet the criteria for being a game at all. A game doesn't have to have a story, it doesn't have to even have any sound but it definitely does have to have gameplay. It's as simple as that, to be a game it has to have gameplay, that's all it needs to be classed as a game. All the other things such as story, graphics, audio, art direction, characters etc. are things that are wrapped around that gameplay and add the richness to the experience.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
The campaign for Forza Horizon to be GOTY is a bit weird, but I’m sure if people believe it’s GOTY they will vote for it, no need for conspiracy theories. It certainly hasn’t deserved a GOTY award before so it won’t be that weird if FH5 doesn’t get there either considering it’s basically the same game as the previous one.
 
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Portugeezer

Member
It's like a defender winning the Ballon d'Or...

GIF by BBC


That said, Horizon 5 seems to be getting a lot of praise. I think some big sites will give it GOTY.
 

CeeJay

Member
Its not that, its precisely what I said in my last post: Its about giving credit for ambition and achievement. Specifically in regards to how many potential pitfalls need to be successfully negotiated to produce a "complete" success.

Its like difficulty in a performance sport. If you do two things perfectly, you are always going to come up short in the scoring against someone who does three or more things really well.
It's a fair point you make.

However...

In a performance sport you do not judge the competitors and award points for their hairstyle or their backstory, its purely judged by the rules for that particular sport. Sport is also rarely subjective and everyone competing is playing by the same clearly defined rules.

What you are saying is that a game for GOTY is judged on many metrics and lets say for arguments sake its judged out of 10 for 5 simple categories.

Gameplay /10
Graphics /10
Sound /10
Story /10
Characters / 10

So, say a narrative driven story based game that gets a 7 in all categories and a total score of 35/50. But, a racing game that has no story or characters gets 10/10 in the first 3 categories but 0 for the last two and gets a total score of 30/50. Because of the arbitrary fact that it doesn't compete in some of these categories it automatically loses, its like a bald super athlete with amnesia who loses hair style and back story points in the performance sport.

If we are going to tack on these categories that some genres simply do not naturally have why don't we also have categories such as the best feeling of motion, the most accurate physics or the precision feel of the controls? All highly important technical gameplay categories but also categories that the story driven action games rarely do well at.
 

rofif

Banned
Forza horizon 3 was annoying as shit with the festival stuff.
In 4 they toned it down but the game was just tedious and annoying to me... I like it but I am not a fan.
 

nemiroff

Gold Member
FH5 does look great visually, but to me, it looks like FH4 with a fresh wrapper

According to previews and f.ex. this article it's not at all a "wrapper", it sounds like the developers have inserted a great deal of care into the game, here are some excerpts:

- FH4 was two years in development, FH5 has been developed with a full size team for three years, and the engine has been customized to take advantage of the Xbox Series consoles hw.
- FH5's map is 1.5x the size of FH4's.
- The game is also carefully built around Mexican culture, with many stories from Mexican culture involve themes of family and community and are at the core of many of Forza Horizon 5's story missions. Music from a variety of Mexican artists and genres was sourced for all of the game's radio stations.
- This time the weather effects do not apply to the entire map all at once, if you don't want to drive through the rain or in a sandstorm, you can simply drive out of it. Also seasons are contextual this time.

Gamepost further writes:

The variety of the missions in general that were available during the preview was impressive, and it kept me interested in heading to the next waypoint to see what type of race I might do next.

Forza Horizon 5 also has a new braking system that helps cars handle better. Applying the brakes is no longer an on-off type of situation but is instead a more gradual gripping of the discs, the developers say. The suspension system is improved, too, with an aim of making the experience more authentic

And of course we also know that car sounds (which btw has been my personal pet peeve with the series) has been completely reworked to sound more authentic. Also, IIRC there are more distinct biomes in this game than in any previous iteration.
 

Bragr

Banned
According to previews and f.ex. this article it's not at all a "wrapper", it sounds like the developers have inserted a great deal of care into the game, here are some excerpts:

- FH4 was two years in development, FH5 has been developed with a full size team for three years, and the engine has been customized to take advantage of the Xbox Series consoles hw.
- FH5's map is 1.5x the size of FH4's.
- The game is also carefully built around Mexican culture, with many stories from Mexican culture involve themes of family and community and are at the core of many of Forza Horizon 5's story missions. Music from a variety of Mexican artists and genres was sourced for all of the game's radio stations.
- This time the weather effects do not apply to the entire map all at once, if you don't want to drive through the rain or in a sandstorm, you can simply drive out of it. Also seasons are contextual this time.

Gamepost further writes:





And of course we also know that car sounds (which btw has been my personal pet peeve with the series) has been completely reworked to sound more authentic. Also, IIRC there are more distinct biomes in this game than in any previous iteration.
All of this is just, as the guy said, a wrapper. Better visuals and a different map is the bare minimum. If you think the story missions are gonna include good stories about Mexican culture, think you will be disappointed.

I think the game will be great, but I don't really see whatever it is a lot of you guys are hyping. It looks very similar to 3 and 4. Very very similar.
 

Snake00

Member
Hipster journos don't get a hard on with racing games. Much better to have emotional sad dad simulators with cutscenes galore.

They long for that Hollywood cred... Stomping goombas and doing crazy stunts in an arcade style racing game would set gaming back to the dark ages in their eyes.

Also the company that is cool to hate from the big 3 is currently the best in class with racing games, that may have something to do as well.
The victim complex is strong with this one.
 
It's almost like people in this thread have forgotten that games are supposed to be fun.
Forza Horizon 5 or GT7 or Drive Club 2 could well be the greatest racing simulator games ever made, with perfect physics modelling and handling. They could accurately model the difference in stiffness between a carbon fibre chassis Vs a Aluminium one. And so on.

But there is no way I could say with any degree of honest that I have enjoyed such a game more than Super Mario Odyssey.

I imagine the journalists some of you people keep crying about feel similarly. If not SMO, then some other game. BotW or GoW or whatever.

Awards are subjective.

Just cause you absolutely love racing Sims and think they're perfect games, doesn't mean other people are obligated to feel the same way, or consider such games to the same level of detail.

To think that way is absurd.

It would be like avid Opera enthusiasts crying about their favourite Opera performer not winning a GRAMMY because 'Hipster music critics' don't appreciate the greatness of Opera in favour of mainstream music.
 

nemiroff

Gold Member
All of this is just, as the guy said, a wrapper. Better visuals and a different map is the bare minimum. If you think the story missions are gonna include good stories about Mexican culture, think you will be disappointed.

I think the game will be great, but I don't really see whatever it is a lot of you guys are hyping. It looks very similar to 3 and 4. Very very similar.

You're not describing an argument, your reply is basically reductionism and dismissal. According to your (and the other poster) logic every sequel in history is "a wrapper", and if that is the argument, fine, but it's a different topic.

But there is no way I could say with any degree of honest that I have enjoyed such a game more than Super Mario Odyssey.

That's the thing, many of us are in fact enjoying some experience more than what the gaming establishment deemed worthy of a "GOTY" (which I think is a silly thing to care about - if not by principle so-to-speak). Some of my best moments in gaming comes from racing games, while "Mario" never went beyond "nice game" (not meant to be a bad thing).
 
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CeeJay

Member
It's almost like people in this thread have forgotten that games are supposed to be fun.
Forza Horizon 5 or GT7 or Drive Club 2 could well be the greatest racing simulator games ever made, with perfect physics modelling and handling. They could accurately model the difference in stiffness between a carbon fibre chassis Vs a Aluminium one. And so on.

But there is no way I could say with any degree of honest that I have enjoyed such a game more than Super Mario Odyssey.

I imagine the journalists some of you people keep crying about feel similarly. If not SMO, then some other game. BotW or GoW or whatever.

Awards are subjective.

Just cause you absolutely love racing Sims and think they're perfect games, doesn't mean other people are obligated to feel the same way, or consider such games to the same level of detail.

To think that way is absurd.

It would be like avid Opera enthusiasts crying about their favourite Opera performer not winning a GRAMMY because 'Hipster music critics' don't appreciate the greatness of Opera in favour of mainstream music.
I get it that you don't find racing games fun but that doesn't mean to say that its a fact that racing games aren't fun. Do you really think that people who love them aren't having fun? if anything it could be argued much easier that something like LOU2 isn't fun to play. "Come on kids, let's go play as a load of post apocalyptic survivors brutally and visually accurately murdering each other!"

The truth is that different people have fun playing a huge variety of different games and racing games are one of the longest running genres there is. The popularity of them must be enough for them to keep making them year after year. Sure they may not be as popular as they once were but they are still pretty popular. The issue is that there are quite a lot of games including racing games that seem to be almost entirely excluded from getting GOTY awards. FH5 might just do it this year but that will be also largely due to it not being a particularly strong year for the usual GOTY contenders.
 
There’s no GOTY Award that actually means anything, which is a shame I think. When you see those ads that say ‘winner of 72000 game of the year awards’ you just have to chuckle. They are all basically fanboy trinkets.

Returnal winning GOTY from PSFellatio.com and Flight Simulator winning it from Xboxrimjob.net doesn’t count for anything but fanboy wars.

I actually think FH5 will ‘win’ a good number of them this year and I won’t care about that either.
 

Inviusx

Member
GOTY as voted by whom? The Geoff Keighly awards?

GOTY is entirely subjective and ultimately meaningless. That being said if you want to see racing/driving games given their due you need to go to enthusiast websites.
 

Topher

Gold Member
It' sad that there are so many people who disregard games as GOTY material simply because they don't have a good story. This is GAMES that we are talking about not movies... The one thing that sets any game apart from a movie or a book is that they are playable, to be a game it has to be playable. Yet when it comes to GOTY awards all of a sudden that number one most important differentiator goes out the window and we all of a sudden have to have narrative, story, interesting and deep characters.

To first be nominated for GOTY a game should first be the best in its own genre by some margin. Then each game judged by how it excels in the context of the genre it's in, how much of a technical and genre defining experience and by how much it moves that genre forward. The game that is strongest using these markers is the GOTY.

Games should be celebrated and given accolades for what they are, GAMES! Not given the accolades because they are the most like other mediums of entertainment they are trying to copy.

A game that has a great story doesn't mean it doesn't have great game play. They can have both. When they do, yeah they will be in high consideration for GOTY. But let's be clear: having great game play is not optional for a game with a great story. If you simply don't like the game play associated with those games then that is fine, but a hell of a lot of people do.

Frankly, I think this is simply a matter of tastes. Some people just don't like the type of games that win GOTY. Nothing wrong with that. Just ignore the GOTY category and focus on the sub-categories of the genres you do enjoy.
 

CeeJay

Member
A game that has a great story doesn't mean it doesn't have great game play. They can have both. When they do, yeah they will be in high consideration for GOTY. But let's be clear: having great game play is not optional for a game with a great story. If you simply don't like the game play associated with those games then that is fine, but a hell of a lot of people do.

Frankly, I think this is simply a matter of tastes. Some people just don't like the type of games that win GOTY. Nothing wrong with that. Just ignore the GOTY category and focus on the sub-categories of the genres you do enjoy.
The Walking Dead won quite a lot of GOTY awards, I played it and never managed to find very much gameplay in there at all.

Although saying that, it was refreshing to see Hades do really well last year. A game with top tier, tight gameplay and controls winning for a change.
 

jose4gg

Member
Now lets do the same for the other games,
TLOU 2 is the same as TLOU 1 just with better graphics, new locations and some more animations
Gears 5 is the same as Gears 1 better graphics, new locations and some new weapons
RDR 2 is the same as RDR 1 with better graphics, new locations and some more animations
BOTW 2 is the same as BOTW 1 just better graphics, more locations and some new skills

You see how you can discredit every game if you look it from that perspective, people that love racing games and play the game more than the average joe can see how much they improve every single game. Also its harder to improve something when its that good, Foza Horizon 3 and 4 are amazing games and the support 4 got from the dev till the end was incredible and kept going. they added alot of the things fans wanted so it kept the game alive. And now with 5 they turned everything to 11, literally improved almost everything. The last couple games got over 90 metascore, how much do you think this will get. They add alot of new gametypes also, last year they even added a BR mode in Forza in a fricking racing game. So how can you say that they are al the same?

TLOU 2 has a lot more deep in history (you like it or not) than Forza, gameplay, animation, dogs, AI, guns, everything is not just better graphics, it affects the way you play the game.
Gears 5 same things...
RDR2 same thing...

These are sequels that are basically the top of the top in their genre. All those games are evaluated in how much the history impacts the overall game, that's why someone can like the first game of any of those games and dislike the sequels because even if the gameplay mechanic is there, there are sufficient changes (history, sound design, map design, weapons, difficulty, overall lore, AI changes) that can make any of the games you mention be a """BAD GAME""" even if it very similar to its predecessor.

I don't think, ANY Forza, if they don't cut a significant amount of things to do, can be worse than the previous one. There is no risk at all, in the history department, there is no risk in the gameplay department, there is no risk in the world or AI design department. No significant risk is taken in those games.
 

Topher

Gold Member
The Walking Dead won quite a lot of GOTY awards, I played it and never managed to find very much gameplay in there at all.

Not gameplay in the modern sense, no. It is a point and click adventure. I grew up playing those and loved them. Their Borderlands game was also particularly good. But the resurgence didn't last and Telltale went out of business.

Although saying that, it was refreshing to see Hades do really well last year. A game with top tier, tight gameplay and controls winning for a change.

Hades also had compelling characters and a story that was uniquely woven into the rogue-like repetition of the game. That was key in the accolades it received.
 
A lot of racing and sports games in general are very iterative in nature (to the point where they should be sold as DLC).

The Forza games in particular have all been more or less the same for a long long time (I have not played a GT game since the GT demo on PS3), you can have fun with them, these games are at the top end of their genre... but even compared to a "regular" game they offer little improvement for each iteration, even the Far Cry games change more from one to the next, the Far Cry games are very competent shooters too.

And that announcer in Forza is just too annoying, it's like the worst case of participation medal syndrome I have ever seen/heard, the new one will be just like 3 and 4 were with some slight improvements in graphics, on a new map.
 
Its not that, its precisely what I said in my last post: Its about giving credit for ambition and achievement. Specifically in regards to how many potential pitfalls need to be successfully negotiated to produce a "complete" success.

Its like difficulty in a performance sport. If you do two things perfectly, you are always going to come up short in the scoring against someone who does three or more things really well.

Quoted for truth.
 

yurinka

Member
I think people chooses for their GOTY lists the games they think are the best ones of the year, the ones they played and think excel at basically everything. If most people don't include racing games there is because for different reasons other games deserve to be there instead because they think are better or because maybe they aren't even interested at all in racing games.

Some people may prefer games with a good story o charismatic characters, some other ones games that innovate, some other ones may prefer other genres (other than a few popular IPs racing isn't one of the best selling ones).

Maybe many of these people see most racing games as mostly the same than previous ones but with new cars and circuits and better visuals. As happens in the sports genre there isn't a lot of room for innovation.
 
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Nezzeroth

Member
GOTY awards are about popularity as much as quality. There are certain genres that resonate more among the people who vote for these things, and they will always have a higher chance to be up there. Meanwhile, there are many many genres these people don't play, that will never have a chance to be GOTY despite how good they might be.
 
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