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[samoilaaa]

Ive read your OP. I want you to give a clear definition of roleplaying.

What you have given is this



Which seems to just describe a very specific game and not a definition for "role playing". A lot of old RPGs don't have dialogue options for example. Nor does the narrative change in them based on any choices. I can list some fan favourite JRPGs of the past that don't have a couple of these things but were considered JRPGs. What's your beef with the latest FF in particular?

most big WPRGs have choice and consequence , its an genre defining feature

 

[kicker]

Which seems to just describe a very specific game and not a definition for "role playing". A lot of old RPGs don't have dialogue options for example. Nor does the narrative change in them based on any choices. I can list some fan favourite JRPGs of the past that don't have a couple of these things but were considered JRPGs. What's your beef with the latest FF in particular?

That 'very specific game' IS A ROLEPLAYING GAME. It is very specific because people keep adding games like FF16 or Legend of Zelda or Days Gone or Shadow of War to it. Choice and Consequence interwoven through Narrative, Personality and Combat (my definition but I think it works).

Could you name the old rpgs that don't effect roleplaying through choice and consequence any of those means (Personality, Narrative and Combat)? Notice I didn't mentione dialogue choices because it is simply a tool to effect choice and consequence, not a defining feature in itself. Rpgs are not defined by the specific elements they have, but the type of interaction those elements allow.

You seem to believe 'Roleplaying' comes to mind when people think of Jrpgs and so every Jrpg must automatically have roleplaying and thus be a roleplaying game. As controversial as this will be JRPGS ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY ROLEPLAYING GAMES.
Jrpg is defined by specific mechanics that certain games use, and roleplaying is not one of them. They borrow the form and progression of roleplaying games, but it is not to effect roleplaying.

It's not about FF16, it's just the latest game people want to force the roleplaying game hat on for some reason

 

[Denton]

Yeah I played FF15 and that was a "JRPG", but it was not an RPG, it was an action game. Zero choices and consequences, zero player agency in the narrative.

I am also curious to know if FF16 will be the same thing, or if it will let me influence events and characters with my own decisions and dialogue choices.

 

[kicker]

Why is it matter if the game is one genre? Or that it switched genre? It still has many elements that makes it recognizable as a Final Fantasy game, and it’s still looks great!

Why get so worked up over the little details?

Did you read the section of the OP that says 'Why does it matter then'?

 

[L*][*N*K]

Silly take. The term "role playing" has a precise meaning and comes from P&P games such as D&D.

Who decided that P&P games can describe a complex video game?

 

[RCU005]

Did you read the section of the OP that says 'Why does it matter then'?

Yes I did. But Final Fantasy XVI is doing things differently, so if it doesn’t fit in the category of traditional JRPG, why analyzing it in a way as if it was.

The same thing is going to happen to Dragon Quest 12. Devs already announced they’ll change the battle system. People will complain and think that they can’t play it only because it’s different. They won’t care if it’s good or not, just that it differs from the other 11 entries.

 

[kicker]

Yes I did. But Final Fantasy XVI is doing things differently, so if it doesn’t fit in the category of traditional JRPG, why analyzing it in a way as if it was.

Not Jrpg. RPG. As in roleplaying game, not the japanese subset of rpgs with very little roleplaying in them. If you had read the op you would see i'm not remarking on it being a Jrpg at all. I'm remarking on its roleplaying (or lack of) features

 

[TheKremlinBossMan]

FFXVI is as much an RPG as any FF before it. Same core concepts outside of one major difference. It is also as much an RPG as the Witcher III or Mass Effect 3.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

wait, are you saying Final Fantasy 16 isn’t a true role playing game? This is such bullshit, it’s not fair that I have to parse through all these games trying find ones that have actual role play.

Fool me 15 times, shame on you. Fool me 16 times…. shame on ME

 

[Three]

That 'very specific game' IS A ROLEPLAYING GAME. It is very specific because people keep adding games like FF16 or Legend of Zelda or Days Gone or Shadow of War to it. Choice and Consequence interwoven through Narrative, Personality and Combat (my definition but I think it works).

Which is why I'm asking for your definition of "role playing" only and not a medley of very specific game mechanics. Horizon Forbidden West would be an RPG based on your criteria for example but that would anger some people if you said HFW is an RPG while suggesting FF16 is not.

Could you name the old rpgs that don't effect roleplaying through choice and consequence [by?] any of those means (Personality, Narrative and Combat)?

I'm not saying they have none of those, that would be near impossible to find since you've ambiguously covered every mechanic of a game there is. I'm talking about what makes a "role playing game" a role playing game specifically and that's why I'm asking for a clear definition from you. Using your logic FF16 and other action role playing games would still be role playing games because you are roleplaying by your chosen gear and/or somewhat meaningless to the narrative dialogue options. Which is what led me to my other question of why you're going after FF16 in particular as not being an RPG. What's changed between it and old FFs which were considered RPGs?

Notice I didn't mentione dialogue choices because it is simply a tool to effect choice and consequence, not a defining feature in itself. Rpgs are not defined by the specific elements they have, but the type of interaction those elements allow.

You said "dialogue options" in your list of specific game mechanics, which is exactly the same thing.

You seem to believe 'Roleplaying' comes to mind when people think of Jrpgs and so every Jrpg must automatically have roleplaying and thus be a roleplaying game. As controversial as this will be JRPGS ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY ROLEPLAYING GAMES.
Jrpg is defined by specific mechanics that certain games use, and roleplaying is not one of them. They borrow the form and progression of roleplaying games, but it is not to effect roleplaying.

I'm confused, JRPG stands for Japanese role playing game so of course "roleplaying" comes to mind. But what is the "role-playing" mechanic? Is a character creator a roleplaying mechanic? Is it the choice of leveling up specific stats or weapons? Is it the story narrative choices, or is it what you're suggesting roleplaying is, which is a medley of very specific game mechanics?

most big WPRGs have choice and consequence , its an genre defining feature

Granted a lot of WRPGs have narrative choices specifically. Some of them don't though but are still called RPGs based on how you build your character.

 

[poodaddy]

how is ffxvi not an rpg but elden ring is

I'm not the final judge on the matter or anything, but in my opinion role playing involves creating a character and being involved heavily in how the narrative plays out, usually through pivotal choice moments or simply through systemic gameplay style based decisions, all of which Elden Ring incorporates to varying degrees. Again, I think the next FF looks great, I'm pumped for it, but if we're splitting hairs here I just wouldn't consider it an RPG. I also don't see why people get so hung up on genre distinctions though. A good game is a good game. It's like people who argue whether a band is speed metal, djent, or progressive metal; it's metal dude, and it's good. Notice that creators are generally not the people who get so bent out of shape on these genre debates, it tends to just be fans.

 

[ProtoByte]

If Final Fantasy XVI is not a RPG, then none of the Final Fantasy games before it are either. Which I think is a viable truth.

I missed the boat on that "FF is having a mid life crisis thread", but a lot of the same points are being hit here:

I believe RPGs need to allow the expression of choice and consequence through Narrative,

Has never happened in a single mainline FF game or spinoff that I'm aware of, not one. TellTale games have more narrative impacting choice than FF has ever had.

Personality

Again, no. Final Fantasy I's protagonists had no in game personality, and ever since then, other than in XIV and I believe XI, protagonists have been verbalised and fixed in personality. There's infinitely more flexibility in personality in Persona's 3-5, and that's not saying much.

, and Combat.

Turn based Final Fantasy combat is not some kind of combat sandbox. Encounters always start and end one way. There's no stealth option, and characters have a fixed set of things they have access to and can learn. Cecil from FF4 can't wield a spear, and he can't learn black magic after he's become a paladin.

Ironically, Clive looks to be the most flexible protagonist in FF history other than Noctis.

 

[Denton]

A good game is a good game. It's like people who argue whether a band is speed metal, djent, or progressive metal; it's metal dude, and it's good. Notice that creators are generally not the people who get so bent out of shape on these genre debates, it tends to just be fans.

A good game is a good game but if I want to play an RPG and you recommend me FIFA 2023 or Final Fantasy XV, you will be doing me disservice. There is a reason genres and even subgenres exist.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Most JRPGs aren’t RPGs. I think this topic gets discussed to death and it never leads anywhere. Has nothing to do with FF16 in particular and I think OP derailed their own thread by making that the title.

You know how like, flavored water and juice boxes have to show what % juice they are? Maybe ESRB can enforce something like that. “Contains 8% role playing”

 

[Three]

Has never happened in a single mainline FF game or spinoff that I'm aware of, not one. TellTale games have more narrative impacting choice than FF has ever had.

As does Detriot Become Human but that's not even considered an RPG at all. It's an adventure game.

 

[64bitmodels]

Maybe ESRB can enforce something like that. “Contains 8% role playing”

I'm dead. that was too good lmfao

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

If this is considered an RPG, then why isn't Zelda an RPG?

 

[Gandih42]

Given the breadth of games and content we have these days, I think the idea of using genres in a pure sense is a flawed idea. Games don't fit well in narrowly defined boxes anymore and therefore it's generally harder to classify then by specific genre definitions.

For the most part I see that as a major positive - it essentially means games can be incredibly multifaceted. I don't think your worries over the use of the term RPG are well founded. Language constantly evolve, and so will our ability to discuss and compare games, if we just allow ourselves to do so.

I would trace the etymology of the word to D&D and tabletop games, which is a far cry from what even much less egregious examples of "RPG" videogames could be. So I'd say it's already bent way out shape (which is fine), way before FFXVI.

Voted it as RPG, but I'd never recommend it based on just that one term.

 

[kicker]

wait, are you saying Final Fantasy 16 isn’t a true role playing game?

Are you saying it is?

How do you role play in Final Fantasy 16 or any Final Fantasy game?

Which is why I'm asking for your definition of "role playing" only and not a medley of very specific game mechanics. Horizon Forbidden West would be an RPG based on your criteria for example but that would anger some people if you said HFW is an RPG 2hile suggesting FF16 is not.

I didn't list a single mechanic as being core to rpgs. I listed them as tools to effect roleplaying which, to me, IS THE INTERPLAY OF CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE EFFECTED THROUGH NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT.

Too vague? How about this:
RPG - Can I make a meaningful Narrative choice? Yes. How? The tools are plot-specific dialogue options, world events, Killing or sparing npcs, etc.
What is the consequence of that choice? The narrative changes and the progression and nature of plot events changes based on my choice, the world might have different end states based on my choices. I can discuss the merits and demerits of my choices and their consequences with a friend who made other choices and received other consequences.
RPG - Can I make a meaningful Personality choice? Yes. How? The tools are character background customization, backgrounds, charisma skills, experience points to show differences in capability, general dialogue options, non-combat clothing, relationship preference, etc. What is the consequence? I am able to interact with certain characters differently based on my personality or I can access certain areas based solely on expressing a cunning or charming personality.
RPG - Can I make a meaningful Combat choice? Yes. How? The tools are classes and/or class-based weapon restrictions, builds, class-specific skills, proficiency progression through experience points.
What is the consequence of that choice? Being forced to play a certain way that another player wouldn't, prioritizing different things in combat to bring out the most of your character. It is not playing as an everyman who is simultaneously great at ranged, melee, magic, summons, and so on, while also having a particular fixed, canon weapon preference outside of gameplay.

Still too vague? How about this:
Typical scenario: "Oh, this new rpg is out. Fantasy, huh. Okay, I'll be playing as my cursed scholar character this time. I'll only make choices that reflect a personality that hates magic use in general, combat will be strictly with non-magic weapons and abilities and his narrative choices will be those of a person who detests the proliferation of magic and lead to a minimizing or complete removal of magic use in the world. "
Typical scenario 2: "Oh, space sci-fi rpg this time, huh. Okay, time to pull out my frail technomancer build and see how well it carries over. Oh, this game doesn't let you decide your background, shame, well I guess he'll just be the chosen stranger but all his decisions will be based on him being an outsider and not caring much about the lives of people outside his own group. I wonder what ending I'll pick since I heard you have to decide between multiple end states"

Still too vague? How about:
RPG - Game over. Now I get to roleplay as this other character and see what different cutscenes and story beats I get as a result.

Which is what led me to my other question of why you're going after FF16 in particular as not being an RPG. What's changed between it and old FFs which were considered RPGs.

I'm not going after FF16. It is just the latest game people are trying to point out some imaginary roleplaying in. People considered them jrpgs first and foremost and not as games that allowed roleplaying (outside of I, and II maybe). They are all jrpgs first and foremost because there is very little roleplaying to be had in most of them. And even that is severely limited.

I'm confused, JRPG stands for Japanese role playing game so of course "roleplaying" comes to mind

Oh, come on. It's not what it stands for, but what it's supposed to literally means. And that literal meaning is being muddied because of games like FF16 and the others I mentioned being considered roleplaying games. Ask anyone if they ever look forward to roleplaying in jrpgs and they'll give you a confused look. Are GTA games considered fps or a racing games because it has first-person shooting and racing elements?

which is a medley of very specific game mechanics?

Again. Those very specific mechanics are tools to enable roleplaying, not markers for roleplaying in and of themselves.

As does Detriot Become Human but that's not even considered an RPG at all. It's an adventure game.

Yes, it's considered a *narrative* adventure game. And it does contain choice and consequence through *narrative* roleplaying, but absolutely nothing else. No-one comes to Detroit or The walking Dead to play specific characters, they come to effect narrative roleplaying through the lens of fixed characters. Notice how all of these games have very strong personalities presented to you in key moments to suggest what is and is not a likely choice based on their fixed personality.


Man, I know you're leading to the point that the act of 'playing a role' in inherent in controlling a character in any video game. Except in roleplaying games you get to decide who the character is and how they interact with the world, while in non-roleplaying games you get to have fun within the limits of the character you are forced to play as. It's why most rpgs leave you with little personality beyond a title like 'Chosen one', 'Nameless wanderer', 'Hero of x', so on.

 

[Fbh]

I'd say this whole topic is more about JRPG's in general than FFXVI.
Most JRPGs don't have any choices and consequences
Most JRPGs don't have expansive dialogue trees and usually don't have interactive dialogue at all
Most JRPGs don't let you create your own character
Most JRPGs only offer limited build options for your character and tend to have fairly linear character progressions

But this has been the case with JRPG for like 3 decades. At this point unless you are new to videogames you should know what to expect when you buy a JRPG

 

[Shifty1897]

It's definitely blurring the lines between RPG and character action game, but a lot of games do that these days. See Astral Chain and Nier Automata.

 

[AJUMP23]

It looks like an action game.

 

[kicker]

Given the breadth of games and content we have these days, I think the idea of using genres in a pure sense is a flawed idea. Games don't fit well in narrowly defined boxes anymore and therefore it's generally harder to classify then by specific genre definitions.

It's a flawed idea because it's harder to do? Or because some people want all big-budget games to be all things to everyone and that isn't inherently flawed either? I'm not trying to shit on games evolving. I would just like to be able to roleplay in games that are described as roleplaying games. Why is that a flawed idea?

If an X game has rpg elements but is not designed around roleplaying, then why don't we just call it an X game with roleplaying elements, rather than a roleplaying game. One suggests a different core with rpg features, while one suggests a roleplaying core.

 

[Arsic]

Looks about as RPG as Nier Automata.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I don't think I do. I'll play whatever you put in front of me as long as it's fun or interesting in some way.
Thing is, genre names have always been stupid and/or loose. arpg, beat-em-up, doom-like, souls-like, stylish action, whatever.
But something as straightforward and meaningful as 'Roleplaying games are games where you can roleplay through game mechanics designed around roleplaying' should not be so hard to maintain

A beef with the TERM aka the genre name, not with the games themselves.

 

[kicker]

A beef with the TERM aka the genre name, not with the games themselves.

Oh. Then yeah, sure.
I don't believe that a game being described as a jrpg means that it is automatically a roleplaying game.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Are you saying it is?

How do you role play in Final Fantasy 16 or any Final Fantasy game?

No, I’m making fun of your premise. Nobody in the history of video games has bought a JRPG, then felt hoodwinked later on when they learned it doesn’t have the role playing they were expecting.

JRPG is the name of a genre. That’s it. No need to get all hung up on the meaning of the individual words. It doesn’t matter.

It got that name because it was an offshoot of early CRPGs like Ultima and Wizardry. If the genre had no name and you had to come up with one today, you probably wouldn’t call it JRPG. But that’s the name it got.

 

[kicker]

No, I’m making fun of your premise. Nobody in the history of video games has bought a JRPG, then felt hoodwinked later on when they learned it doesn’t have the role playing they were expecting.

JRPG is the name of a genre. That’s it. No need to get all hung up on the meaning of the individual words. It doesn’t matter.

It got that name because it was an offshoot of early CRPGs like Ultima and Wizardry. If the genre had no name and you had to come up with one today, you probably wouldn’t call it JRPG. But that’s the name it got.

Yes, I agree that nobody expects roleplaying from jrpgs. But I didn't mention Jrpg once in my op, nor in my title. The thread is about FF16's debatable status as an RPG and not whether or not Jrpgs are actually roleplaying games.

If you're implying that everyone considers FF16 a jrpg and automatically not a role playing game, well, this thread is proof that isn't true

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I think you are confusing the RPG term in this case.

 

[yurinka]

FFXVI is both a roleplaying game with a focus on combat and an action adventure game with rpg elements. Because RPGs, specially the action RPGs like FFXVI, are a subset of the action adventures.

JRPG means Japanese role playing games, and since it has been made in Japan it's a JRPG too. Even if in the past JRPG was synonimous of NES-like turn based rpgs so common in Japanese games back then, but not anymore.

Now most Japanese rpg games are what in the past were known as ARPG (action rpgs), role playing games with real time (non-turn based) action which decades ago wasn't that common in Japanese rpgs and was more common in western games.

The term JRPG doesn't make sense anymore, because now there are many types of RPG both in Japan and in the west and both western and Japanes rpgs are more focused on real time action than in turn based combat.

And in addition to that, nowadays the AAA games are made by hundreds or thousands of people from many nationalities in several studios across the world, so there isn't a big difference if their publisher or lead studio is from Japan or from the west.

Back in the past that was more important because games were developed by a single studio and almost all the people of the studio had the same nationality than the studio.

And well, now there are also many western indie teams who make turn based RPGs that mimic the style of the combats that Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest had in the NES. Nowadays there are maybe even more western games of this type than Japanese games. So it's dumb to call JRPG this genre: it's better to call it turn based RPG.

 

[Three]

I didn't list a single mechanic as being core to rpgs. I listed them as tools to effect roleplaying which, to me, IS THE INTERPLAY OF CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE EFFECTED THROUGH NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT.

That's my point.

Too vague? How about this:
RPG - Can I make a meaningful Narrative choice? Yes. How? The tools are plot-specific dialogue options, world events, Killing or sparing npcs, etc.
What is the consequence of that choice? The narrative changes and the progression and nature of plot events changes based on my choice, the world might have different end states based on my choices. I can discuss the merits and demerits of my choices and their consequences with a friend who made other choices and received other consequences.

Is Detriot Become Human more of an an RPG then than FF7 on the PS1 for example? It has far more dialogue options and consequence.

RPG - Can I make a meaningful Personality choice? Yes. How? The tools are character background customization, backgrounds, charisma skills, experience points to show differences in capability, general dialogue options, non-combat clothing, relationship preference, etc. What is the consequence? I am able to interact with certain characters differently based on my personality or I can access certain areas based solely on expressing a cunning or charming personality.

you're just listing things rather than a particular role playing mechanic again though. Are you saying any one of these things makes it a role playing game? Or all of these specific things are required for an RPG? Would fortnite then be an RPG because you can customise your character in clothing? Not really. FF offers choices on what to level up, wear and a lot of games use skill points with skill trees. Those are an RPG then?

RPG - Can I make a meaningful Combat choice? Yes. How? The tools are classes and/or class-based weapon restrictions, builds, class-specific skills, proficiency progression through experience points.
What is the consequence of that choice? Being forced to play a certain way that another player wouldn't, prioritizing different things in combat to bring out the most of your character. It is not playing as an everyman who is simultaneously great at ranged, melee, magic, summons, and so on, while also having a particular fixed, canon weapon preference outside of gameplay.

So again why isn't FF an RPG? You have a lot of those choices in them.

Still too vague? How about this:
Typical scenario: "Oh, this new rpg is out. Fantasy, huh. Okay, I'll be playing as my cursed scholar character this time. I'll only make choices that reflect a personality that hates magic use in general, combat will be strictly with non-magic weapons and abilities and his narrative choices will be those of a person who detests the proliferation of magic and lead to a minimizing or complete removal of magic use in the world. "
Typical scenario 2: "Oh, space sci-fi rpg this time, huh. Okay, time to pull out my frail technomancer build and see how well it carries over. Oh, this game doesn't let you decide your background, shame, well I guess he'll just be the chosen stranger but all his decisions will be based on him being an outsider and not caring much about the lives of people outside his own group. I wonder what ending I'll pick since I heard you have to decide between multiple end states"

Still too vague? How about:
RPG - Game over. Now I get to roleplay as this other character and see what different cutscenes and story beats I get as a result.

This makes a little more sense but even then it's not so cut and dry in a definition. You want to play the role of different characters in your game.

Any hero game with a possible levelling up mechanic applies too then but they are set so are you talking about choices based on the role you decide to play for your character? In which case you can do this by deciding not to use magic and use melee weapons only. Would it change the actual story in game though in any RPG today? Not really, it doesn't in almost all games. That's just you being imaginative.

I'm not going after FF16. It is just the latest game people are trying to point out some imaginary roleplaying in. People considered them jrpgs first and foremost and not as games that allowed roleplaying (outside of I, and II maybe). They are all jrpgs first and foremost because there is very little roleplaying to be had in most of them. And even that is severely limited.


Oh, come on. It's not what it stands for, but what it's supposed to literally means. And that literal meaning is being muddied because of games like FF16 and the others I mentioned being considered roleplaying games.

The term JRPG has been in use and stood for role playing game long before games like FF16 muddied them.

Ask anyone if they ever look forward to roleplaying in jrpgs and they'll give you a confused look. Are GTA games considered fps or a racing games because it has first-person shooting and racing elements?

I mean, sure if you want to play it only as a racing games or shooting in first person mode online then you can. SP is a combination of these though. Conversely would GTA become an RPG if I decide to build a character in GTA online and tell myself my character Lopez is a street racer, dress him up in racing shoes and a t-shirt and take part in races in the GTA online world only to increase my racing rank? then when I get bored build another character named Tony who I dress up in a suit and make him push drugs through a nightclub business? Would that mean GTA Online is actually an RPG now since I'm effectively able to play a role in it?

Again. Those very specific mechanics are tools to enable roleplaying, not markers for roleplaying in and of themselves.

Yes, it's considered a *narrative* adventure game. And it does contain choice and consequence through *narrative* roleplaying, but absolutely nothing else. No-one comes to Detroit or The walking Dead to play specific characters, they come to effect narrative roleplaying through the lens of fixed characters. Notice how all of these games have very strong personalities presented to you in key moments to suggest what is and is not a likely choice based on their fixed personality.

Exactly which is why I'm asking what a roleplaying game specifically is. That you are just using a medley of specific mechanics perhaps from your favourite RPG to push the narrative that this is what roleplaying is, a very specific combination which you haven't clearly defined. I get that some games incorporate more "roleplaying" through increased choice of appearance, story or skills than others but it doesn't make the other roleplaying games not role playing games if it's not all of them.

Man, I know you're leading to the point that the act of 'playing a role' in inherent in controlling a character in any video game. Except in roleplaying games you get to decide who the character is and how they interact with the world, while in non-roleplaying games you get to have fun within the limits of the character you are forced to play as. It's why most rpgs leave you with little personality beyond a title like 'Chosen one', 'Nameless wanderer', 'Hero of x', so on.

I'm just leading to the point that role playing is hard to define and it's more than just narrative choice, it can just be stats levelling and skilltrees in combat without affecting story or with or without some character appearance or personalisation choices.

Games have a mixed combination of these things but not necessarily all and are still considered Role Playing Games. I'm trying to figure out why you specifically don't consider FF16 an action role playing game. Is it really just the set protagonist having a character background? The limited branching of the story like most RPGs before it?

 

[Fredrik]

Going by the showcases I would say Action-Adventure but Square Enix define it as Action RPG, I’d say the perfect definition would be Action JRPG since JRPGs rarely let you roleplay and start with a blank slate character.

 

[Felessan]

Because RPG describes a means of play that is very specific, and uniquely fun because of the specificity. Calling a game an rpg just because it borrows elements from rpgs (without using them to effect roleplaying) just confuses at best, and diminishes the importance of roleplaying within its own genre.

If I want to play a roleplaying game, why should I have to parse through several games within the category just to find one that allows roleplaying?
Should we create a separate category called 'core rpgs' or 'roleplaying rpgs'? Wouldn't that just be silly?

It ain't true even for predescessors of cRPG - tabletop RPG, where all kinds of preferencies are supported - from linerar story campaign with almost zero choices to munchkin play or battle arenas to pure roleplay focus games, sometimes even without much of a combat or story progression.
Much less when we go into video game history of RPG - rogue-like RPG (Diablo) are focused on power building, JPRG are focused on the story, WRPG do sometimes allow some roleplay. MMO is a world in itself.
RPG is a vast genre with different playstyle supported. It's logical that cRPGs are follow the suit and cater to particular crowd and their preferencies, providing wide variance inside the genre.

We are way past that point already.

This point never ever existed.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Yes, I agree that nobody expects roleplaying from jrpgs. But I didn't mention Jrpg once in my op, nor in my title. The thread is about FF16's debatable status as an RPG and not whether or not Jrpgs are actually roleplaying games.

If you're implying that everyone considers FF16 a jrpg and automatically not a role playing game, well, this thread is proof that isn't true

The only reason FF16 gets put in the category of “RPG” is because the whole JRPG genre gets put in the category of “RPG”. FF16 is as much a RPG as any other Final Fantasy game or any other JRPG.

The only way you can object to FF16 being considered an RPG is if you object to JRPG being considered a sub genre of RPG. It is nonsensical to talk about FF16 in isolation.

 

[X-Wing]

What the hell is this?

"Read the op for why I think it matters"?!

What the fuck is wrong with you people?!

And FFXVI is a JRPG. An action one. That's it.

 

[Danjin44]

Did you read the op? I can't see where the specific combat system comes in.

Then are we questioning if all JRPGs are RPG? Is Witcher 3 RPG?

But the answer is simple, like or not JRPGS is always and will be RPG.

Action RPGs have existed even back then.

 

[BossLackey]

JRPG with action combat and no party control.

I think these two things when combined is making it seem as if it isn't an RPG to some. Strong story focus, leveling, item and equipment management, etc.

We all know the lines have been blurred for a long time. Just about every game has RPG elements, but I think this game is an RPG.

 

[hemo memo]

I get the confusion as this is closer to Devil May Cry than Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Danjin44]

JRPG with action combat and no party control.

I think these two things when combined is making it seem as if it isn't.

What about games like Persona 3FES or even Dragon Dogma, Dark Souls/Elden Ring….are they no longer RPGs?

 

[Fluo]

I see cRPG vs jRPG debate is still alive and kicking.

JRPGs have never been about meaningful narrative choices or roleplaying a single character. But they're still considered RPGs because they're usually set in an immersive world with heavy focus on story and memorable characters. And by that token, any FF game is a JRPG, at least in spirit. Mechanically, yeah, it's probably action-adventure with rpg elements.

 

[kicker]

That's my point.

Why are you being obtuse? I keep saying it. There is no specific mechanic that makes an RPG. Mechanics are tools. They can be used in games where roleplaying is not the purpose, and they can be used in games where roleplaying is the purpose. I already listed a definition that you dismissed as lists because I didn't specify that having x or not having x makes this an rpg. CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE EFFECTED THROUGH NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT. This is the essence of a roleplaying game. They are tools that can be used to effect roleplaying which I have stated several times. For the last time, in my opinion, THE PRESENCE OF ABSENCE OF A PARTRICULAR MECHANIC DOES NOT A ROLEPLAYING GAME MAKE. THE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE OF CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE EFFECTED THROIGH NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT MECHANICS MAKES AN RPG.

The term JRPG has been in use and stood for role playing game long before games like FF16 muddied them.

No-one considers jrpgs automatically roleplaying games. This is just pedantry. The fact that they have roleplaying in the name does not make them roleplaying games, and the vast majority of gaming enthusiasts would agree.

Any hero game with a possible levelling up mechanic applies too then but they are set so are you talking about choices based on the role you decide to play for your character? In which case you can do this by deciding not to use magic and use melee weapons only.

THE INTERPLAY. THE GODAMN INTERPLAY OF CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE. LEVELLING UP DOES NOT MEAN I AM PLAYING A ROLE. NOT USING MAGIC DOES NOT MEAN I AM PLAYING A ROLEPLAYING. HAVING A CHARACTER CREATOR DOES NOT MEAN I AM PLAYING A ROLEPLAYING GAME. YOU CAN CHOOSE TO ROLEPLAY IN GAMES THAT AREN'T ROLEPLAYING GAMES BUT THE GAME WILL NOT ENABLE THE ROLEPLAYING. YOU'D JUST BE PLAYING A DIFFERENT GENRE OF GAME WACKILY THEN. NO SPECIFIC MECHANIC IS ROLEPLAYING. MAKING A CHOICE AND PLAYING THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES IN ALL OF NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT MEANS I AM ROLEPLAYING.

Would it change the actual story in game though in any RPG today? Not really, it doesn't in almost all games. That's just you being imaginative.

It doesn't in almost all games. It does in RPGs. RPGs are not almost all games. They are a specific subset that you claim doesn't exist in games today and thus has no meaning when in reality the games that do this exist and are rightly classed RPGs. The fact that most games called RPGs don't allow this means that they are wrongly called RPGs. You don't change the definition because a game that for some reason MUST be an RPG doesn't feature it. If a game MUST be an RPG yet it doesn't feature choice and consequence as described above then it isn't an RPG. And no amount of diminishing the meaning will make it one.

That you are just using a medley of specific mechanics

Read the first paragraph in this post and please stop asking for a specific tool to define RPGs with. My definition is a game that allows MAKING A CHOICE AND PLAYING THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES IN ALL OF NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT through a combination of different mechanics. That is an rpg, I gave examples that you claim are too cut and dry. And instead you want a single cut and dry mechanic.

I'm just leading to the point that role playing is hard to define and it's more than just narrative choice,

I never said it was just narrative choice. I gave 2 separate examples of experiences that roleplaying games allow me to have that go beyond just narrative choice.

it can just be stats levelling and skilltrees in combat without affecting story or with or without some character appearance or personalisation choices.

It cannot just be one mechanic and I don't know why you think that.

Games have a mixed combination of these things but not necessarily all and are still considered Role Playing Games

Wrongly considered RPGs, by literal definition. Just having specific mechanics from roleplaying games does not make a game a roleplaying game, because It does not mean I am allowed to roleplay. Otherwise the term is meaningless and there is no point discussing this.

I'm trying to figure out why you specifically don't consider FF16 an action role playing game

1. It is not about FF16 alone, it is simply the latest game. Give me another upcoming game that is supposedly considered an RPG while not allowing role playing and I will ask the same question.
2. Yes. It is an action Rpg not an RPG. You might claim the difference is insignificant, but it isn't because the experiences you can have are wildly different and the expectations people have are also wildly different as well. The subgenre Action Roleplaying are defined by wikipedia as

The games emphasize real-time combat where the player has direct control over the characters as opposed to turn or menu-based combat while still having a focus on character's Stats in order to determine relative strength and abilities. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games. Action role-playing games may also incorporate action-adventure games, which include a mission system and role-playing game mechanics, or MMORPGs with real-time combat systems

Note the bolded. May incorporate another genre (action adventure) which itself has roleplaying game mechanics (or mechanics that are used to roleplay but don't effect roleplaying in and of themselves) And compare to

THE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE OF A PARTICULAR MECHANIC DOES NOT A ROLEPLAYING GAME MAKE. THE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE OF CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE EFFECTED THROIGH NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT MECHANICS MAKES AN RPG.

I'm tired of this already, man. If after this you aren't convinced that the term RPG has a fixed definition that FF16 does not fall under, even though the majority of games people wrongly attach that label to don't ascribe to that definition, then I can't type anything else to convince you.

 

[kicker]

What the hell is this?

"Read the op for why I think it matters"?!

What the fuck is wrong with you people?!

Elaborate your grievance and you will receive a response to make you understand what the hell it is.

 

[Kumomeme]

Action Adventure RPG / RPG Action Adventure / Action RPG Adventure.

eitherway just same.



honestly nowdays the line between RPG genre and action adventure kind of blurred as each of these genre is growing by influenced each others day by day. tons of element being borrowed and added among each others. the label might not mean much anymore. videogame gameplay is growing, evolving and expanding day by day compared to 20-30 years ago and i dont think we could hold same standard value forever. this not count the impact on others genre but i dont think we should worry that FF16 is not RPG at heart. especially if all of this concern is just stem due just because the game has action combat lol.

it just a combat system be it turn based, strategy, tab target, first person etc. the core of it still RPG. this just unnecessary, unneeded worry. just look at Witcher 3, Skyrim, Dragon Age, Dragons Dogma for example. those game is a RPG so why FF16 gonna be any different?

all this over concern of full action combat and set pieces? they even got former Dragons Dogma Lead Gameplay Designer as combat director. people too focused on DMC aspect tbh.


also just look at the team previous game, FF14. that game is MMORPG but that game is actually RPGMMO since it is a single player RPG at heart, despite has MMO label. like i said above, we should not too focused on the genre label.

they can even maintained strong RPG element with live service, multiplayer MMO game like FF14 foremost so there is no reason why they cant do the same with single player oriented offline game FF16. so it is not suprise if FF16 also gonna be same. like FF14, instead of it becoming Action RPG it might end up as RPG Action instead, for example. if you guys get what i mean here.

 

[BossLackey]

What about games like Persona 3FES or even Dragon Dogma, Dark Souls/Elden Ring….are they no longer RPGs?

I said it's making it seem to some that these elements do not make it an RPG. I didn't say it doesn't make it an RPG.

Though really, I would argue that Dragon's Dogma and Souls games are Action RPGs, but that also makes FF16 closer to an Action RPG than a JRPG. The distinction is meaningless. They're all RPGs.

In my head, JRPGs are a style of game, not just an RPG that comes out of Japan.

Dragon's Quest is a JRPG. Bloodborne is an Action RPG (but not an ARPG because that's Diablo and it's ilk even though they literally mean the same thing.). Again, this goes to show just how meaningless all of this is and this is just how it exists in my head because none of these have firm definitions or anything even approaching it.

 

[X-Wing]

Elaborate your grievance and you will receive a response to make you understand what the hell it is.

My grievance is your clickbait like title. As for the rest of your argument, if you wanna be strict with the definition of RPG then you will have a very very limited list of videogames that you can consider RPG.

 

[Three]

THE INTERPLAY. THE GODAMN INTERPLAY OF CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE. LEVELLING UP DOES NOT MEAN I AM PLAYING A ROLE. NOT USING MAGIC DOES NOT MEAN I AM PLAYING A ROLEPLAYING. HAVING A CHARACTER CREATOR DOES NOT MEAN I AM PLAYING A ROLEPLAYING GAME. YOU CAN CHOOSE TO ROLEPLAY IN GAMES THAT AREN'T ROLEPLAYING GAMES BUT THE GAME WILL NOT ENABLE THE ROLEPLAYING. YOU'D JUST BE PLAYING A DIFFERENT GENRE OF GAME WACKILY THEN. NO SPECIFIC MECHANIC IS ROLEPLAYING. MAKING A CHOICE AND PLAYING THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES IN ALL OF NARRATIVE, PERSONALITY AND COMBAT MEANS I AM ROLEPLAYING.

Levelling up isn't the choice. Levelling up specific weapons/magic abilities or going down different skilltree choices though? What do you think that is in FF for example? Choosing what dress somebody wears? Is that personality and narrative choice in FF? I don't know why you were talking about playing a game "WACKILY", now you're upset about actually roleplaying in a game like GTA online that gives you options like that.

I'm saying games have varying amounts of choice but I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to call a JRPG or Action RPG not an RPG. People call them RPGs because they are RPGs. What do you accomplish by suggesting they're wrong when it's in the damn name?

 

[Fuz]

honestly nowdays the line between RPG element and action adventure kind of blurred

Right, and you know why? Because people are too ignorant and kept using the term inappropriately for every single shit were you could use a sword, so it stuck.

 

[R6Rider]

Jrpg= Japanese RPG. It involves your average RPG elements.
Wrpg is Western RPG. Same as jrpg.

The difference is region where it's being made.

 

[BennyBlanco]

If there wasn’t nostalgia bait FF elements like chocobos and summons and we all saw that gameplay trailer nobody would be calling it a JRPG. It’s an action game. Is FF Origins a JRPG?

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Man think of all the retarded arguments that could’ve been avoided if the genre were named something else besides JRPG.


I hereby propose the name Weebgrinder. If it looks like it’s for weebs and it has some way to grind your character’s abilities, it’s a Weebgrinder.

Bam, problem solved. We can all peacefully go our separate ways.