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[Insider Gaming] PlayStation 5 Pro is “100%” in Development.

samoilaaa

Member
Theres your 60fps performance mode for the rest of the gen. Wont happen on the base consoles.
i dont understand why people are laughing at ur comment , they think that you will get 1440p-60fps at high settings +rtx on a 10tf machine

the only way you might get 60 fps would be at low medium/settings 1080p
 

Rykan

Member
i dont understand why people are laughing at ur comment , they think that you will get 1440p-60fps at high settings +rtx on a 10tf machine

the only way you might get 60 fps would be at low medium/settings 1080p
Because it's wrong. 60 FPS performance modes are a standard and an expected feature. Concepts like "high settings" and "low settings" don't apply to consoles the same way they do to PC in most games.

Most 60 FPS games don't run at 1080p either.
 
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ToTTenTranz

Banned
TSMC Will Reportedly Charge $20,000 Per 3nm Wafer

TSMC will charge as much as they possibly can for wafers. Their problem is that the demand for chips made on high-end processes (essentially mobile SoCs, server CPUs, GPUs and mining ASICs) is drastically lower today than it was in late 2022. There are lots of fabless IHVs telling TSMC they want to slow down production, the demand is faltering so they'll need to adjust the prices accordingly.


I don't see 72 CU's on N5 or N3 happening, the APU alone would cost Sony more than $300.
It wouldn't cost that much, it would probably go for lower than $200. But regardless if Sony charges $700 for the console then even $300 for the SoC wouldn't be that much of a problem. NAND and RAM prices are hitting rock-bottom nowadays.
 

samoilaaa

Member
Because it's wrong. 60 FPS performance modes are a standard and an expected feature. Concepts like "high settings" and "low settings" don't apply to consoles the same way they do to PC in most games.

Most 60 FPS games don't run at 1080p either.
well now but wait 2 or 3 years , you think graphics wont advance and stay the same ?
 

Represent.

Represent(ative) of bad opinions
well now but wait 2 or 3 years , you think graphics wont advance and stay the same ?
It’s best not to engage with these people. They ignore history completely. And think they know more than actual developers and industry vets like DF.

Both of whom have said, don’t be surprised when 30fps standard makes its return later in the gen. Especially with UE5 games

Im just saying a PRO console will make it so that won’t be the case. But what do I know lmao
 

ToTTenTranz

Banned
287mm² (4nm) GCD and 26mm² (5nm) MCDs, Total - 417mm² with 5 MCDs, 443mm² with 6 MCDs. Imagine the die size of a 72CU PS5 Pro.

Why would Sony use new MCDs on N5? They can use the already existing, perfectly fine and very cheap N6 MCDs. The whole point of using chiplets is to cut the cost of the SoCs and become less dependent on high-end processes.
I could even see Sony using cache-less MCDs made on an even older process, like N12 or something.
Then they could build two variants:
- PS5 Lite: N6 SoC with the same 8x Zen 2 cores @<=3.5GHz and 20 WGPs (18 active) @ <=2.23GHz that lead to 4 MCDs connecting to cheap 14Gbps GDDR6 (448GB/s) -> selling for $350
- PS5 Pro: N3 or N4 SoC with 12x Zen 4c cores @<=4.5GHz and 40 WGPs (38 active) @ <=2.7GHz that lead to 6 MCDs connecting to faster 24Gbps GDDR6 (1152 GB/s) -> selling for $600

Both would come without BluRay drive as that's separate and modular (probably just USB3 anyways), sold for ~$75.


Is there any (exclusive/non-exclusive) PS5 game where you look at the game and can tell that they used all of the capabilities of the console to make this game work and used every last bit of the system?

That's not how any of this works.
You can't ever tell they used all of the capabilities of the console by looking at a game. What does that even mean? That it looks better than anything else on consoles (e.g. Horizon Forbidden West)? That it's lighting up all the registers in the CPU and GPU, as well as all the VRAM? That's impossible to achieve and never happened on any hardware, ever.
Less complex scenes are done in less time (higher framerates), more complex scenes are done in more time (lower framerates). We already have a grasp on what we can achieve with the current hardware. If a Pro version of the consoles comes up with a GPU that runs 2X faster, then it'll provide twice the framerate on GPU-limited scenarios.

There are always appearing new methods to increase IQ for the same compute performance, the latest being UE5's Nanite+Lumen, but those are simply methods to provide better IQ for the same hardware limits. It's not like current PS5 games are using just 5 TFLOPs and future games will use 10 TFLOPs.
 

kyliethicc

Member
I think it will only be sold standalone. Official bundles wouldn't make much sense, Sony wants you to go digital with this move. I expect the console to be 449 and the disc drive 129-149.
well Tom Henderson who leaked the whole thing said there will be a bundle SKU with the drive included
 

FrankWza

Member
I think it will only be sold standalone. Official bundles wouldn't make much sense, Sony wants you to go digital with this move. I expect the console to be 449 and the disc drive 129-149.
Once you go full digital you give retailers less incentive to stock your big boxes. It's not that time yet. People still want physical games.
 

FunkMiller

Member
Tell you what, if they make the fucking thing a reasonable size, I’ll buy one. It’s impossible to travel with a Ps5, because it’s such a stupidly big bitch. If a Pro is about the size of a PS4 Pro or Series X, they can have my money.
 

yurinka

Member
Never will exist?
They finally have been able to produce as much as desired PS5s this year, so I think they'll milk that production.

Also, costs of components, fuel for distribution/shipping, and so on skyrocketed with inflation everywhere. So PS5 and potential PS5 Pro manufacturing and shipment got more expensive to make instead of cheaper over time. So PS5 Pro would be too expensive for the mainstream.

On top of that, this generation they have a paradigm shift for the game engines that affect also how gamedevs work and design their games and workflow, the biggest one since they jumped from 2D to 3D. This means they'll need a longer period of time than they usually do to build these new engines and games that take full advantage of the normal PS5 hardware. Once achieved these PS5 games will look much better than the normal ones without needing the hardware bump, around the time that a PS5 Pro would be released. And in fact, will happen at only around 2 or 3 years before the release of the next generation.

So no, they won't need it and would be a bad idea for them to make it.
 

RayHell

Member
Why not.
Who care about the price, 1000$ to get best console performance is attractive for more people than you think and Sony is a business that should totally try to grab that market.
I mean people are willing to pay $200 for a pro controller and 600$ for a mid tier graphic card.

Of course people will be mad because they cannot afford it and their powerful new console will feel obsolete but it's the reality of the technological market.
 

Neo_game

Member
They finally have been able to produce as much as desired PS5s this year, so I think they'll milk that production.

Also, costs of components, fuel for distribution/shipping, and so on skyrocketed with inflation everywhere. So PS5 and potential PS5 Pro manufacturing and shipment got more expensive to make instead of cheaper over time. So PS5 Pro would be too expensive for the mainstream.

On top of that, this generation they have a paradigm shift for the game engines that affect also how gamedevs work and design their games and workflow, the biggest one since they jumped from 2D to 3D. This means they'll need a longer period of time than they usually do to build these new engines and games that take full advantage of the normal PS5 hardware. Once achieved these PS5 games will look much better than the normal ones without needing the hardware bump, around the time that a PS5 Pro would be released. And in fact, will happen at only around 2 or 3 years before the release of the next generation.

So no, they won't need it and would be a bad idea for them to make it.

Pro releasing in 2024 and PS6 in 2027 seems logical. It is unlikely Unreal5 games can do 1440P 60fps on base PS5, it will more like 1080P.
 

nashman

Member
"Are you the sort of player that absolutely wants the very best in terms of graphical experiences on the games that you play?" If the answer to that is "yes", then I think PlayStation 4 Pro is worthy of consideration.

By extension, what I was suggesting is that players answering "yes" to that question inherently do tend to gravitate towards the PC, and perhaps do so at a certain point within the console lifecycle.



Starting soon there will be a tital wave of games that use UE5. Sony wont want AAA games runing at sub 1440 and 30 fps till 2027. They WILL release a PS5 Pro next year 100%
 

Auto_aim1

MeisaMcCaffrey
My PS5 has already started giving overheating warnings despite cleaning it. It's probably going to melt by 2024 just in time for PS5 pro. I mean it's alright not like they are going to discontinue the base PS5.
 
I think there is demand for 60fps in all games now and unless you want graphics to stagnate, the only way you are going to get it is through a PS5 Pro. People bring up the PS3 as an example of how graphics can improve on fixed hardware but the PS5 has zero in common. It is a PC effectively, not some kind of proprietary hardware that developers didn't know how to use. Even so the Last of Us ran much worse than their previous games on the PS3 so it still holds true that as graphics improve, performance drops. Developers are not magicians.
 
One thing I haven't seen being talked about, are die sizes. This is one of the important areas to determine what performance to expect.
UdpBkyT.jpg
lD6tfLP.jpg


TSMC Will Reportedly Charge $20,000 Per 3nm Wafer
kCfb1vp.jpg


XB1 - 363 mm² (28nm) Durango
XB1S - 240 mm² (16nm) Durango 2
XB1X - 359 mm² (16nm) Scorpio
XBSS - 197 mm² (7nm) Lockhart
XBSX - 360 mm² (7nm) Scarlett

PS4 - 348 mm² (28nm) Liverpool
PS4 Slim - 209 mm² (16nm) Liverpool 16nm
PS4 Pro - 322 mm² (16nm) Neo
PS5 - 308 mm² (7nm) Oberon
PS5 6nm - ~278mm² (6nm) Oberon Plus

Notice the consoles from AMD stay under 400mm². Then we must understand smaller nodes are more expensive and if all the units if within a certain die area.

One way to combat die sizes and cost is to take the chiplet route.
Once, I proposed a 12-core Zen 4, 56 CU RDNA 3 chip. with a 319mm² (5nm²) die and 29mm² (6nm) MCDs, totaling 464mm² with 5 MCDs.

287mm² (4nm) GCD and 26mm² (5nm) MCDs, Total - 417mm² with 5 MCDs, 443mm² with 6 MCDs. Imagine the die size of a 72CU PS5 Pro.
Ck5cu8I.png

This is based on AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT and what performance to expect.
twoNNbs.jpg

Xv6KVzk.jpg

RT performance should be around the 3080.
frYjdzD.jpg



Then Moores Law is Dead leaked what may very well be what to expect from the PS5 Pro based on the Strix Halo.
37PfHTa.png


There is also the possibility of a multi-gpu chiplet approach based on this patent from Mark Cerny with 2 PS5 gpus working together but this is unlikely to happen. Higher possibility this is the approach for the PS6 with RDNA 4/5.
Generating hints of object overlap by region testing while rendering for efficient multi-GPU rendering of geometry
0e6LUU2.png

xjfxf3f.jpg



My point is, looking at die size and cost limitations, we should keep our expectations in check and not expect most games to be native 4k/60 with RT.

Remember, PS4 Pro wasn't exactly doing native 4k. Most of the time it was upscaling, so expect PS5 Pro to do the same in terms of resolution.

I could see Strix Halo as the basis for Pro. Cut the Zen 5 to 8C, as I doubt any game right now is CPU limited even at 60 FPS, and add 4 more CUs. I would probably expect somewhat higher clocks on the GPU compared to the mobile product, and some other tweaks Sony thinks are necessary. It could be a pretty potent chip, particularly if AMD's FG solution works out, and if they can leverage the AI accelerator.
 

01011001

Banned
of course it is. anyone who doubt that was delusional.
the question is, will they go hard on Raytracing, or will they go hard on Framerate in their PR campaign :pie_thinking:

also I wonder it they will have to go the same route as on PS4, where they basically had to use 2x the shaders as the base console to ensure 100% compatibility where they can turn off half the chip if needed.
if that is the case, then we could infer the possible performance from that.
 
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Loxus

Member
I could see Strix Halo as the basis for Pro. Cut the Zen 5 to 8C, as I doubt any game right now is CPU limited even at 60 FPS, and add 4 more CUs. I would probably expect somewhat higher clocks on the GPU compared to the mobile product, and some other tweaks Sony thinks are necessary. It could be a pretty potent chip, particularly if AMD's FG solution works out, and if they can leverage the AI accelerator.
Strix Halo seems likely to me as well.

I don't know if anyone remember this.
b4wf7Ed.jpg


AMD Radeon RX 7700 XT
OJOb3fN.jpg


PS5 Pro may end up with 40 CU (4 disabled) RDNA 3.
 
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Why would Sony use new MCDs on N5? They can use the already existing, perfectly fine and very cheap N6 MCDs. The whole point of using chiplets is to cut the cost of the SoCs and become less dependent on high-end processes.
I could even see Sony using cache-less MCDs made on an even older process, like N12 or something.
Then they could build two variants:
- PS5 Lite: N6 SoC with the same 8x Zen 2 cores @<=3.5GHz and 20 WGPs (18 active) @ <=2.23GHz that lead to 4 MCDs connecting to cheap 14Gbps GDDR6 (448GB/s) -> selling for $350
- PS5 Pro: N3 or N4 SoC with 12x Zen 4c cores @<=4.5GHz and 40 WGPs (38 active) @ <=2.7GHz that lead to 6 MCDs connecting to faster 24Gbps GDDR6 (1152 GB/s) -> selling for $600

Both would come without BluRay drive as that's separate and modular (probably just USB3 anyways), sold for ~$75.
MCD is useful for L3 cache (infinity cache) that will then be connected to GDDR6 main memory. No point of using MCD if you don't use RDNA3 L3 cache. So they won't do it for the existing PS5. They could do it to increase bandwidth of PS5 Pro while still using 256 bit bus for the memory.

And I don't understand those rumors about Strix Halo. They'll very likely double the CU count like they did with Pro in order to have >2x more Tflops (and to keep hardware BC). They can't double the clocks like they did with PS5 compared to Pro.

If anything PS4 Pro was a first shot in the water, they were quite conservative with the specs, but I expect them to do a real premium hardware this time.
 
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If this rumor is true, it’s rather silly imo especially considering that hardly any developers truly took advantage of the PS5. Imo, I think the situation is a little different from the PS4 because it couldn’t handle VR as well, didn’t have 4K, HDR, etc and at least they pushed that console sometimes before the PS4 Pro came out and introduced those features that the PS4 lacked. I’m assuming they’ll probably just port games over to the PS5 and slightly bump up the resolution and the frame rates. Yay!! $600-$700.
 
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Esppiral

Member
If any of the console manufacturers dare to release a new pro console without even untapping the power of the current ones I swear I will leave console gaming
 

kyussman

Member
If I am gonna get one of these for Death Stranding 2 I should probably think about getting a 4K tv to make the most of it......thing is my 1080p Panasonic plasma is still going strong and I'm not just gonna ditch it........I bought the fucking thing to play PS3 back in the day and it still looks pretty great to me......hopefully it will shit the bed soon,lol.
 

Quantum253

Member
When setting up a game I always bounce back and forth from Resolution and performance. However, I've been pretty consistent with choosing performance on each title. I can understand that PS4 needed a boost for the 4K TV market and help PSVR. The PS5 should be tapped close to max, and maybe first party titles are pushing it as far as they are allowed for stability.
That said, I would like the choice of the NEW visual 4K 60fps and NEW performance 120 fps (scalable visuals). The newest tvs/monitors with VRR/etc would help, but if the console could push it alone, VRR could help scale performance/visuals for those who have it. I guess the problem I have is what does a game pushing the PS5 to it max suppose to look like?
 

Rykan

Member
well now but wait 2 or 3 years , you think graphics wont advance and stay the same ?
They will advance in the same way as previous generations, but within the confines of offering 60 FPS modes. The argument that graphics can only be improved by lowering the frame rate is a misconception. Did we play PS4 games at 15 FPS at the end of that generation? Of course not.

There will be certain games that only offer 30 FPS modes. But for the most part, 60 FPS modes have become an expectation, and it's unlikely to change. It's also unlikely to be locked exclusively to a "pro" version of a system that only a marginal amount of users will own.
It’s best not to engage with these people. They ignore history completely. And think they know more than actual developers and industry vets like DF.
You're the one who has consistently been completely ignoring history. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly: you are unable to name a single console generation in which the games released in the first half of the generation ran at a different frame rate than the ones released in the latter half. Furthermore, you cannot name a single console generation that had as many performance options for as many of its games as this one does
Both of whom have said, don’t be surprised when 30fps standard makes its return later in the gen. Especially with UE5 games
A bunch of cherry-picked out of context taken statements don't make your case.
 
MCD is useful for L3 cache (infinity cache) that will then be connected to GDDR6 main memory. No point of using MCD if you don't use RDNA3 L3 cache. So they won't do it for the existing PS5. They could do it to increase bandwidth of PS5 Pro while still using 256 bit bus for the memory.

And I don't understand those rumors about Strix Halo. They'll very likely double the CU count like they did with Pro in order to have >2x more Tflops (and to keep hardware BC). They can't double the clocks like they did with PS5 compared to Pro.

If anything PS4 Pro was a first shot in the water, they were quite conservative with the specs, but I expect them to do a real premium hardware this time.

They aren't going to double CUs. That would put the GPU between 7800 XT and 7900 XT. On 4nm, that's not happening. The cost and power draw would far exceed console specs.
 
They aren't going to double CUs. That would put the GPU between 7800 XT and 7900 XT. On 4nm, that's not happening. The cost and power draw would far exceed console specs.
99% they are. It's the only way to at least double the performance. They could use 3nm next year as mass production is already under way this year for Apple. They could also use 4nm and increase power consumption to ~300W.
 
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PeteBull

Member
I think PS5 Pro never existed, never will exist and that Sony never seriously considered it.
U know we already got to switch alike resolution with recently launched SW Jedi survivor, and thats early/mid 2023 game, u really think Sony will be ok with base ps5 only till 2028 or maybe even 2030- so start of next gen aka ps6 launch- without any stronger option for their hardcore fan(atics) who by definition buy 10+ games/year instead of simply launching much stronger ps5pr0 in late 2024 or 2025, i guarantee u many console gamers want that smooth steady 60 at higher res than this
 
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REDRZA MWS

Member
U know we already got to switch alike resolution with recently launched SW Jedi survivor, and thats early/mid 2023 game, u really think Sony will be ok with base ps5 only till 2028 or maybe even 2030- so start of next gen aka ps6 launch- without any stronger option for their hardcore fan(atics) who by definition buy 10+ games/year instead of simply launching much stronger ps5pr0 in late 2024 or 2025, i guarantee u many console gamers want that smooth steady 60 at higher res than this

I dont consider any other option, when given, then performance mode. SWJS looks and runs great on my ps5.
 

yurinka

Member
U know we already got to switch alike resolution with recently launched SW Jedi survivor, and thats early/mid 2023 game, u really think Sony will be ok with base ps5 only till 2028 or maybe even 2030- so start of next gen aka ps6 launch- without any stronger option for their hardcore fan(atics) who by definition buy 10+ games/year instead of simply launching much stronger ps5pr0 in late 2024 or 2025, i guarantee u many console gamers want that smooth steady 60 at higher res than this

I know that PS5 is breaking gaming history records regarding the money they make (revenue) selling console hardware, selling console software, selling game subs, now also in their 'others' department (accesories + PC ports), and is also doing it with record numbers of gaming history records engagement for PS5 and also for (considering its point in lifetime) PS4. Their big first party games are also performing better than ever.

Sony releases their consoles every 7 years, which would mean a PS6 release in late 2027. In some of these regulators Sony/MS hinted that they expect to release it around that days (saying that CoD 2027/2028 would be the first one for the next gen).

I think these are the important things for them to see if their console is ok or if it needs a refresh or a push, not the resolution of an isolated game that as part of being released not very optimized as an exception released with a maybe too low resolution. So it's 4 and a half years from now.

Devs decide the balance they put in their game. They decide if they push for high end visuals making their game look more beautiful, if they instead make it uglier but push for higher framerates or a higher resolution. They can't have everything. If they want top visuals and 60fps, the resolution will be low. If they want top visuals and high resolution, the fps will be low. If they want top resolution and fps the visuals won't be that pretty. This always happened and always happend. Gamers -and devs- obviously would like to have everything but isn't possible because all hardware has its limits.

In this specific case of this game, these devs decided to sacrifice resolution to make an extra push in visuals. And you didn't like it, which is fine. I'd have pushed down a bit the visuals or maybe have kept them in a 30fps option and may have increased a bit the resolution. But in any case, it's only a game and their important numbers (revenue in all areas) are higher than ever so they won't be worried about it.
 
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Loxus

Member
How many PS5s duct taped together is this in terms of power?
AMD RDNA 3 GPU Architecture Deep Dive: The Ryzen Moment for GPUs
6hrv7gm.jpg
olsW2eU.jpg

RDNA 3 comes with an enhanced Compute Unit pair — the dual CUs that became the main building block for RDNA chips. A cursory look at the above might not look that different from RDNA 2, but then notice that the first block for the scheduler and Vector GPRs (general purpose registers) says "Float / INT / Matrix SIMD32" followed by a second block that says "Float / Matrix SIMD32." That second block is new for RDNA 3, and it basically means double the floating point throughput.

You can choose to look at things in one of two ways: Either each CU now has 128 Stream Processors (SPs, or GPU shaders), and you get 12,288 total shader ALUs (Arithmetic Logic Units), or you can view it as 64 "full" SPs that just happen to have double the FP32 throughput compared to the previous generation RDNA 2 CUs.


So basically,
36 CU x 4 SIMD32 processors x 32 FP32 processors x multiply-accumulate x 2.23GHz

PS5 Pro
36 x 4 x 32 x 2 x 2.23GHz = 20.55 TFLOPS

PS5
36 x 2 x 32 x 2 x 2.23GHz = 10.27 TFLOPS

The way how the PS5 gen is going, Sony should have waited and released the PS5 in 2022 with Zen 4 and RDNA 3.
 

Go_Ly_Dow

Member
AMD RDNA 3 GPU Architecture Deep Dive: The Ryzen Moment for GPUs
6hrv7gm.jpg
olsW2eU.jpg

RDNA 3 comes with an enhanced Compute Unit pair — the dual CUs that became the main building block for RDNA chips. A cursory look at the above might not look that different from RDNA 2, but then notice that the first block for the scheduler and Vector GPRs (general purpose registers) says "Float / INT / Matrix SIMD32" followed by a second block that says "Float / Matrix SIMD32." That second block is new for RDNA 3, and it basically means double the floating point throughput.

You can choose to look at things in one of two ways: Either each CU now has 128 Stream Processors (SPs, or GPU shaders), and you get 12,288 total shader ALUs (Arithmetic Logic Units), or you can view it as 64 "full" SPs that just happen to have double the FP32 throughput compared to the previous generation RDNA 2 CUs.


So basically,
36 CU x 4 SIMD32 processors x 32 FP32 processors x multiply-accumulate x 2.23GHz

PS5 Pro
36 x 4 x 32 x 2 x 2.23GHz = 20.55 TFLOPS

PS5
36 x 2 x 32 x 2 x 2.23GHz = 10.27 TFLOPS

The way how the PS5 gen is going, Sony should have waited and released the PS5 in 2022 with Zen 4 and RDNA 3.
Thanks, a very detailed response. Problem is they wouldn't be so far ahead it the Xbox if they waited 2 years to launch a rival to the Series consoles.

I guess the Pro will be the 4k, 60fps, RT console and base PS5 will offer all those modes but with compromises. Either way we are operating from a much higher base than PS4 so the games will look great.
 

PeteBull

Member
What we thinking price wise? $499, $549, $599, $649, $699?
Realistic holiday 2024 or sometime in 2025 price at current inflation is 600 to 800 bucks.
First lets see what this mashine have under the hood then we can decide if its worth the price.
 

PeteBull

Member
I dont consider any other option, when given, then performance mode. SWJS looks and runs great on my ps5.
U got dips to 17fps in 30fps mode and constant fluctuation 40-60 in 60fps mode, its ok if for u its- "runs great" but objectively it needs srs performance improvements, not to mention that switch alike resolutions =D
 
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