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Is Avengers:Endgame under appreciated?

Doom85

Member
The loss of a loved one can deeply affect you, but when you do things that endanger many billions of people's lives as a result, that's just idiotic no matter how you cut it. And having dumb things drive the plot isn't good story telling IMO.

Well, human behavior is human behavior. If you saw your child gunned down right in front of you, and knew that attacking the murderer standing right before you would most likely result in half of humanity dying, I applaud your restraint as most people would go apeshit on the fucker.

Also, I mean, so does the ending to The Last of Us Part 1 suck now? So our protagonists never allowed to succumb to their emotions just because the stakes are high? Breaking Bad must be shit now too. So many times Walt could have avoided all he did (not selling his shares in Grey Matter in the past, taken Elliott’s job offer, not killing the drug dealers that Gus told him and Jesse to leave alone, not hinting to Hank that Gale was not Heisenberg, etc.) yet he chose his own personal pride to guide him. Is this all bad writing too?
 
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"not everyone will be able to appreciate them, even some geniuses"

The movies in general were widely appreciated. A few notable exceptions like Francis who couldn't find enlightenment for himself during Endgame so figured there wasn't any for anyone. In general a common affliction resulting from self-importance.

Endgame's dialogue and character developments help distinguish it. A few character deaths to add to some to add some poignancy to certain moments. Wouldn't say they elevate it above Infinity War by themselves which had its own such moments.

On your left. That final battle had so many exciting moments to pick from. Thanos the Longshanks with "rain fire" when Wanda was kicking his ass was a great call. The arrival of Captain Marvel to the battlefield derailing the train, my favourite thrill.

Overall the movie was a nice cresendo to that phase and capstone to the story that was built around it.
Scarlet Johansen was basically unknown, yeah she was in Lost in Translation way back in 2003. Her only 2 other notable roles were in The Island and The Prestige and most people forget she's in The Prestige.
I knew her from Ghost World as support for Thora Birch.

I don't mean to go off on a rant...
Now it's all unknowns like Oscar Isaac, Florence Pugh, Harry Styles and Julia Louise-Dreyfuss. A few no names remain, but who has heard of Nick Fury or the actor. Chris Pratt? Who dat? Why don't they hire 16 y/o with a 30 year career and a few oscars for the new roles? Better yet, why isn't it just a story about stuff that I know with casts that I feel comfortable around. The cast don't feel right because they aren't the old ones I'm used to and I don't like the new ones and I don't like change or adapting to it darnit.

It's really something that people that don't like Marvel still consume it to the morsel. The lack of distinction in actors might make it seem that their senses are a little dulled.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Well, human behavior is human behavior. If you saw your child gunned down right in front of you, and knew that attacking the murderer standing right before you would most likely result in half of humanity dying, I applaud your restraint as most people would go apeshit on the fucker.
But if as a result other family members will very likely also be killed, you might think twice about blindly rushing in.

To be honest, I don't think the Batman scene and Star-Lord scene are not very comparable: the takes are way lower in Batman's and I'm sure Batman is calculated enough not to give in to rage in Star-Lord's situation.
Also, I mean, so does the ending to The Last of Us Part 1 suck now? So our protagonists never allowed to succumb to their emotions just because the stakes are high? Breaking Bad must be shit now too. So many times Walt could have avoided all he did (not selling his shares in Grey Matter in the past, taken Elliott’s job offer, not killing the drug dealers that Gus told him and Jesse to leave alone, hinting to Hank that Gale was not Heisenberg, etc.) yet he chose his own personal pride to guide him. Is this all bad writing too?
You've not seen my many discussions on the ending of TLOU1, have you? :messenger_winking_tongue:

I have issues with it, mainly with how the Fireflies handle the situation. They separated him and Ellie and told him they were going to kill her and he just had to suck it up. So yeah, him coming to her defence is more justified than Star-Lord doing pistol whips that won't save anyone. I don't think TLOU1's ending sucks but it's one of the weaker parts of the game but overall doesn't drag the game down.

I've not seen Breaking Bad though. Characters can do dumb things out of pride/arrogance/anger etc. If those character traits are well established in the show first, it doesn't have to be bad writing, it will likely depend how others will deal with the results of those decisions that will make or break the show IMO. IW is a bit of a unique situation with so many lives at risk so it is harder to compare.
 

SJRB

Gold Member
Seriously. That was ridiculous. Vision and Hulk just literally worthless.
Sacrificed on the altar of diversity so captain marvel can swoop in and save the day.

But even Wanda, who had god-tier powers is completely neutered because they needed the story to happen.

Marvel movie power levels are always ridiculously unbalanced and sometimes literally change from scene to scene.
 
Sacrificed on the altar of diversity so captain marvel can swoop in and save the day.

But even Wanda, who had god-tier powers is completely neutered because they needed the story to happen.

Marvel movie power levels are always ridiculously unbalanced and sometimes literally change from scene to scene.
Yeah, who knows. I don't even think Hulk has to do with diversity really, but more just the massive shift in tone from Winter Soldier/Civil War to whatever we ended up with, which might as well be for 5 year olds. Hulk being angry was probably deemed too aggressive for children.
 

Doom85

Member
But if as a result other family members will very likely also be killed, you might think twice about blindly rushing in.

To be honest, I don't think the Batman scene and Star-Lord scene are not very comparable: the takes are way lower in Batman's and I'm sure Batman is calculated enough not to give in to rage in Star-Lord's situation.

You've not seen my many discussions on the ending of TLOU1, have you? :messenger_winking_tongue:

I have issues with it, mainly with how the Fireflies handle the situation. They separated him and Ellie and told him they were going to kill her and he just had to suck it up. So yeah, him coming to her defence is more justified than Star-Lord doing pistol whips that won't save anyone. I don't think TLOU1's ending sucks but it's one of the weaker parts of the game but overall doesn't drag the game down.

I've not seen Breaking Bad though. Characters can do dumb things out of pride/arrogance/anger etc. If those character traits are well established in the show first, it doesn't have to be bad writing, it will likely depend how others will deal with the results of those decisions that will make or break the show IMO. IW is a bit of a unique situation with so many lives at risk so it is harder to compare.

One time, my car was nearly hit by a neighbor rushing his car out of the driveway to get his wife to a hospital. Now a logical move would be to drive quickly but also keep aware of your surroundings as a wreck would obviously delay his wife getting to the hospital by a LOT. But the man was letting emotions guide his actions. Because that’s what people do when they are overcome by emotions, they don’t act rationally. Going, “yeah, but…” is pointless as you are trying to apply logic to a person’s mind that has chosen to give a certain emotion control over rational thought.

Batman knew Rachel, as well as Harvey were in danger. As soon as Joker gives the addresses, he immediately takes off only taking the shortest of time to tell Gordon which one they’ll each go to. So yes, him punching Joker out of pure rage is a massive miscalculation as he knew deep down each second counted and yet he wasted time on doing something that clearly would not yield results. The first time he hits Joker, Joker merely advises him on the proper method to hurting someone. When Batman punches him repeatedly later, Joker just laughs. And he only tells Batman the addresses because he does want Batman to unintentionally save Harvey but for Rachel to die. So yes, Batman must have known physical violence was not going to break Joker in this time sensitive situation with the woman he loved and the man who Gotham needed to keep the mob down both in mortal danger, but he proceeded to hit Joker constantly. This is a very comparable situation.

Also, there were high stakes with TLOU’s ending. A vaccine could make a major difference fo what was left of humanity, yet Joel did what he did. But it fit his character.

And you keep assuming Peter’s guns could kill Thanos. If they could, well Tony wouldn’t have yelled at Peter to help remove the Gauntlet. He would have just yelled, “shoot him!” So no, Peter hitting Thanos or shooting him is the same thing. When one is overcome with rage, you think they actually give a shit if they can actually kill the person they’re targeting? Peter hitting him is just him letting out his wrath. And for some, throwing a punch feels more satisfying than pulling a trigger.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
And I'll never get over what they did to Hulk. He deserved his moment against Thanos after the way IW started. It also never made sense to me how Thanos was so powerful in IW without the stones.
I think it may be a rights issue with Hulk that he can only appear in an ensemble features and not stand-alone movies why Marvel is clowning on Hulk these days, especially since She-Hulk who appears better than him right of the bat coming soon.
 

Doom85

Member
Sacrificed on the altar of diversity so captain marvel can swoop in and save the day.

No Way Wtf GIF by Harlem


Vision died in IW, how was he supposed to help instead of Carol in Endgame? And we’re claiming he was killed off for “diversity” sake? Ah yes, it’s not like 99% of MCU fans predicted his death at Thanos’ hands since Avengers 2. Vision is powered by a Stone, Thanos needs all the Stones. What was going to happen should have been ridiculously obvious.

And Hulk had to be out of the fight in Endgame as using the stones even with the Gauntlet significantly hurts the user even if they are super strong. Anyone else present would have either died doing it or gotten hurt far worse except Thor.

And yeah, damn “diversity”, shame they can’t let white guys win fights in Marvel movies these days…..well, except any of the Peters winning every single fight in Spider-Man No Way Home…..and all but one fight is won by Strange in Dr. Strange 2 (and even with Wanda, it’s Strange who motivates America)…..and Thor beats Zeus…..and even in Endgame, it’s Tony himself who saves the day……but I mean, beyond THAT…..
 

Ulysses 31

Member
One time, my car was nearly hit by a neighbor rushing his car out of the driveway to get his wife to a hospital. Now a logical move would be to drive quickly but also keep aware of your surroundings as a wreck would obviously delay his wife getting to the hospital by a LOT. But the man was letting emotions guide his actions. Because that’s what people do when they are overcome by emotions, they don’t act rationally. Going, “yeah, but…” is pointless as you are trying to apply logic to a person’s mind that has chosen to give a certain emotion control over rational thought.

Batman knew Rachel, as well as Harvey were in danger. As soon as Joker gives the addresses, he immediately takes off only taking the shortest of time to tell Gordon which one they’ll each go to. So yes, him punching Joker out of pure rage is a massive miscalculation as he knew deep down each second counted and yet he wasted time on doing something that clearly would not yield results. The first time he hits Joker, Joker merely advises him on the proper method to hurting someone. When Batman punches him repeatedly later, Joker just laughs. And he only tells Batman the addresses because he does want Batman to unintentionally save Harvey but for Rachel to die. So yes, Batman must have known physical violence was not going to break Joker in this time sensitive situation with the woman he loved and the man who Gotham needed to keep the mob down both in mortal danger, but he proceeded to hit Joker constantly. This is a very comparable situation.
2 vs billions of lives puts it in another perspective. Batman's beating is to get information he knows Joker has, Star-Lord's pistol whipping serves little purpose other than to signal he's livid.
Also, there were high stakes with TLOU’s ending. A vaccine could make a major difference fo what was left of humanity, yet Joel did what he did. But it fit his character.
I couldn't buy into that since nothing in the game shows that the Fireflies had the means to make the vaccine in sufficient quantities or distribution. There were more signs that they were on the verge of collapse.
And you keep assuming Peter’s guns could kill Thanos. If they could, well Tony wouldn’t have yelled at Peter to help remove the Gauntlet. He would have just yelled, “shoot him!” So no, Peter hitting Thanos or shooting him is the same thing. When one is overcome with rage, you think they actually give a shit if they can actually kill the person they’re targeting? Peter hitting him is just him letting out his wrath. And for some, throwing a punch feels more satisfying than pulling a trigger.
No I don't, I merely said that pistol whipping Thanos didn't do much to help the situation, it made it worse actually. But you bring up an interesting point, if Star-Lord's gun could kill Thanos, I think that should've been done to resolved the situation. But if that were the case, Dr. Strange probably would've seen it in one of his alternate timeline visits.
 
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Doom85

Member
2 vs billions of lives puts it in another perspective. Batman's beating is to get information he knows Joker has, Star-Lord's pistol whipping serves little purpose other than to signal he's livid.

I couldn't buy into that since nothing in the game shows that the Fireflies had the means to make the vaccine in sufficient quantities and distribution. There were more signs that they were on the verge of collapse.

No I don't, I merely said that pistol whipping Thanos didn't do much to help the situation, it made it worse actually. But you bring up an interesting point, if Star-Lord's gun could kill Thanos, I think that should've been done to resolved the situation. But if that were the case, Dr. Strange probably would've seen it in one of his alternate timeline visits.

I already explained that Batman should have seen by that point in the interrogation that Joker was not phased by getting hurt. Him beating Joker was purely out of rage. Gordon even tries to get in there to break it up.

Marlene makes it clear in the notes Joel finds that they were on the verge of falling apart due to assuming Ellie had been killed. Once they found her, this was no longer an issue.

I feel we’re just going in circles regarding Peter. To me, it will be a brilliant moment as I saw that the writer(s) remembered Guardians 2 well and found a way to twist an emotional outburst that was seen in that film as an awesome moment. Although again, emotion, Peter already knew Ego was a Celestial (a god) at that point so obviously he knows guns won’t do shit against him. But, of course, that’s not why he attacks him.

I’m pushing my waking limit here as a third-shift worker AKA nocturnal animal, I need sleep already. Peace, and have a kickass day.

Nice To Meet You Nicolas Cage GIF by Nordisk Film Finland
 

iPaul93

Member
I don't think it's underrated.It made tons of money, and has an RT score of 94%, but I still think IW is the best MCU movie.

LE: I was thinking of Infinity War when I said it's the best MCU movie, not Endgame.
 
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Hari Seldon

Gold Member
I mean I absolutely hate the capeshit but some of the movies are not completely terrible, like the first capt America and guardians. But endgame was extremely cringe. Like when dumbasses chant U-S-A at sporting events. The entire movie felt like a long ass trailer. I watched it once out of curiosity and never again.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
I already explained that Batman should have seen by that point in the interrogation that Joker was not phased by getting hurt. Him beating Joker was purely out of rage. Gordon even tries to get in there to break it up.
Batman's outrage didn't threaten others around him, Quill outrage was endangering people in the area and many others. Even if you see them both as acting stupid/outraged, Quill's several leagues worse than Batman's which is why I find it hard to compare these situations.
Marlene makes it clear in the notes Joel finds that they were on the verge of falling apart due to assuming Ellie had been killed. Once they found her, this was no longer an issue.
Before the operation Marlene talks about having lost/sacrificed so much and how a vaccine could help them recover. Doesn't sound like an organisation capable of curing the world just yet. Even if we assume they could, we'd have to make other big assumptions in their favor like that they would never abuse the vaccine for power, vaccinate fairly, would be able to defend their stock well enough.
I feel we’re just going in circles regarding Peter. To me, it will be a brilliant moment as I saw that the writer(s) remembered Guardians 2 well and found a way to twist an emotional outburst that was seen in that film as an awesome moment. Although again, emotion, Peter already knew Ego was a Celestial (a god) at that point so obviously he knows guns won’t do shit against him. But, of course, that’s not why he attacks him.
That could establish that Quill's reaction is in character, but what he does in is still a dumb and not a good reflection on him.
 
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Chiggs

Member
I was stunned by how bad the final battle was. Just a complete lack of imagination and execution, sans the Captain America scene.

I was happy to see Avatar dethrone what was a poor follow up to Infinity War.

You might scoff at the notion, how can the biggest movie of all time be under appreciated?

 
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Fbh

Gold Member
Don't now how it can be underrated when it made a ton of money, has an 8.4 user score on IMDB and 90 user score on Rotten Tomatoes.

But even ignoring that, no I don't agree it's underrated. It's a really underwhelming and extremely disappointing follow up to the awesome infinity war
Time travel is literally the most boring and laziest way I can think of to solve the the end of Infinity War. Add to it boring fights, too much retread of old ground, Thor being turned into a joke, Hulk solving his story arc off screen and an ugly and unexciting final fight and the end result was an average superhero movie at best.
 
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BlackTron

Member
I thought Endgame was pretty bad as its own movie, but it's not. It's just the massive 3-hour ending to Infinity War.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
I think its rated perfectly where it's supposed to be. IW was a hard act to follow. End Game had some really bad scripting choices, weird choices, and some really amazing moments. Its a mixed bag movie that did better than most when it comes to ending a big series of films (I think the RotJ comparisons are good, though I dont think IW is a great movie like Empire Strikes Back, it is good though).

I just really wish Time Travel was left out. It always feels like the crux these fiction movies lean on too often.
 

gradient

Resident Cheap Arse
But you're OK with Steve going toe to toe with Thanos even though Thanos would be able to kill him with a single flick?

As for the scene you are complaining about, Infinity War makes it very clear to audiences that Thanos either needs to clench his fist or click his fingers to make the gauntlet work work. Carol is holding his hand not allowing him to do either. Hence the reason Thanos grabs the power stone from the gauntlet and smashes the fuck out of her.

Steve is taking the hits on the shield, which is made of vibranium, which at least makes sense as it is is designed to absorb the force. As I recall the only direct hit he takes is a stab through the leg by the sword, the rest is fall damage from being flung around. He also fights considerably more skillfully, dodging, displaying some fighting prowess and the fight is at least a trade-off and struggle. Unlike with fights with Denvers and Witch where Thanos just gets dominated in both cases, even to the point that they make a direct headbutt look completely inconsequential. He literally goes from dominating the three lead avengers all at once to struggling against any of the girls one-on-one which in turn makes him and cap, Thor and Iron Man look weak just for the sake of trying to make the girls look better. It's REALLY bad writing and totally undermines the threat that the past films and Infinity War built up.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
I watched this movie beginning to end and couldn’t tell you a thing that happened in it other than the ending. It was enjoyable I guess but not really a great movie either. To me Dark Knight is the only comic book movie that I would consider a great movie.
 

pramod

Member
So I've been thinking a bit more as to why I started liking Endgame, andI also realized that it's only in Endgame when you see the heroes truly "lose".

Yes, they "lost" in Infinity War, but it was like a shocking defeat and the movie just ends. We were left thinking that the heroes can probably "undo" what was done.

But in the start of Endgame we actually see the heroes lose that hope. They gave up. It was when we finally see them totally beaten. Thanos has achieved a total victory.

And then we get to see what happens to heroes when they have lost hope and given up. And with the 5 year time skip it was made even more impactful.
It was something we don't usually see in super hero movies.

I think it's the emotional peak and valleys like these that made me appreciate Endgame. IW is awesome but it's just like a continuous adrenalin rush.
 
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sol_bad

Member
Steve is taking the hits on the shield, which is made of vibranium, which at least makes sense as it is is designed to absorb the force. As I recall the only direct hit he takes is a stab through the leg by the sword, the rest is fall damage from being flung around. He also fights considerably more skillfully, dodging, displaying some fighting prowess and the fight is at least a trade-off and struggle. Unlike with fights with Denvers and Witch where Thanos just gets dominated in both cases, even to the point that they make a direct headbutt look completely inconsequential. He literally goes from dominating the three lead avengers all at once to struggling against any of the girls one-on-one which in turn makes him and cap, Thor and Iron Man look weak just for the sake of trying to make the girls look better. It's REALLY bad writing and totally undermines the threat that the past films and Infinity War built up.

Doesn't matter where Thanos was hitting Steve, realistically he could snap Steve and Tony in half in an instant. Grab Steve's shield, rip his arm off, cave his head and then crush Tony's head.

But it's called giving the audience spectacle. Everyone wants to see Steve, Tony and Thor fight Thanos. But no one wants to see a fight last for 5 seconds.

As for Wanda and Carol, they are 2 of the strongest characters, both in the MCU and the comics. Realistically, Wanda could have exploded Thanos' head and end him right there rather than rip his armor off. Same with Carol, she could have done way more damage than she did.

The film actually does things in the opposite manner than what you think. It neutered Wanda and Carol and made Steve and Tony stronger than they should have been.
 
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Sygma

Member
You might scoff at the notion, how can the biggest movie of all time be under appreciated? But the fact is most people consider Infinity War to be a "better" movie, but now, with some reflection and the passage of time, ive come to appreciate Endgame a lot more for these reasons.

Endgame really isnt a typical MCU action movie. IW was almost all non stop action. But Endgame except for the end battle, was all dialogue and character interaction. It was the last time we got to see all the Avengers together interact outside of fighting. And its even better here because they added Rhodey, Antman and some of the Guardians. Its like how those party and farm scenes in Age of Ultron were well regarded but not the movie itself.

And i think both ScarJo and RDJ really showed their acting chops here. Especially Scarjo she really knocked it out of the park all her scenes were so good.

Even the time heist (which btw still makes no sense and is still the films biggest problem) was mostly dialogue and drama and very little fighting.

Anyway if you just take the first hour and half of Endgame and add the climactic battle to that then its almost a perfect movie just imho.

Movie is absolute trash that's why, it banked everything on caring about the characters with extremely terrible action despite Infinity War happening before it which frankly is still puzzling to me. Because if you don't care at all about anything happening to the characters its just all around bad. Even the final battle is straight up laughable compared to Infinity War's

Honestly I don't get it and its fine, guess i just wasn't the right audience
 

sol_bad

Member
Funnily enough my wife and I watched both films back to back yesterday and we still love them. Very easy to watch them both because they are such different films.
 
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Kilau

Gold Member
Gotta stick the landing for the end of a series, or several phases in this case and it fell flat on it's face.

I saw every Marvel movie up to Endgame and enjoyed most but haven't watched a single once since. I've never read a comic book in my life so changes to the characters don't mean anything to me but time travel and multiverse stuff is just the worst especially when it's stupid time travel. Garbage way to end that run and it just road the wave of hype to massive success.
 

pramod

Member
Yeah time travel is like worst most cliched of all movie plots. But these days i think about how time travel has always been a popular plot device in Marvel comics. So they are just carrying it over. I mean if we can already accept aliens magic demons and shrinking men why cant we also accept time travel?
 
The use of the impotent Thanos snap from Endgame as a meme by those trying to say they were inevitable after the snap in IW was hilarious. Ol' switcheroo in more ways than one.

Carol appearing like an angel of light rescuing Tony and Nebula was a favourite scene. The final battle like a modern interpretation of Bruegel's Fall of the Rebel Angels.
 

Alcibiades

Member
I thought it was OK, but nothing special. There were moments early on that were good, but by the end it had gotten too ridiculous. The pacing was bad, the final battle was fun at first with the 3-on-1, but then the cavalry arrived and it got boring. I did like that the character lineup changed a bit (Captain Marvel, Gamora's sister, Hawkeye) and that the snapped avengers were gone most of the film.

I think the plot is the biggest weakness. The whole time travel thing really rubbed me the wrong way. Having time travel was fine, and the heist was fun, but I don't like the idea that the only solution is bring back everyone and now there is a 5 year gap. Strange reversed time in his first solo movie so I'm not buying the premise that everything has to stay the same and you can't go back. Sorry Ironman if you have to lose your daughter but the blip of half the universe returning could cause almost as much death and trauma as the Snap so F-You for being a selfish ahole that doesn't want time reversed. I also didn't like them bringing in an alternate Thanos, like why should I care about this villain that we've only seen for a few minutes and is now in an epic battle? No buildup, no character development, just introduced and fighting in the climax a few minutes later. One of the great things about Thanos in IW is that the movie slowly built him up and showed his different layers, so you actually cared about the conflict and even saw some complexity in him. Alternate Thanos has no redeeming value other than being the bad guy. I also didn't like Steve going to an alternate timeline for his romance. Like dude you got your shot, you were in ice, it's sad but you gotta move on. You've already cheated life enough by undoing the snap, stop trying to cheat life even more. These are not good people (Tony and Steve)

Also, it's really left a bad taste in my mouth the last couple years since the theme of dealing with the Snap/Blip has tainted all the Marvel media. And I've liked the movies but I would have loved to see the last two years of new characters exist in a world without the blip hanging over their heads. I also hate the whole "my older brother can now be my younger brother" type thing.

I'd say that IW is like a 9.5, almost 10. Most Marvel movies are like 6-8. Endgame started in the range for me but it's dropped to about a 5, and it's only dropping the more time passes. At the end of IW, I was blown away by what I had just witnessed. At the end of Endgame I was annoyed and a bit confused at the time travel stuff.
 

BaneIsPain

Member
It was good if anything normies treat it like the best mcu ever. So a bit overrated.
Time travel is meh to me. Those snapped should've stayed snapped in IW.
 

BadBurger

Gold Member
It is the comic book movie for superhero comic-ness. I think too many people examine this movie with an overly-critical eye, forgetting that it is unapologetically what it is and certainly never strove for anything greater.

The criticisms regarding female empowerment and such is just embarrassing at this point. They weren't trying to score any kind of sociopolitical points or make some kind of statement - merely making their female viewers happy, such as the legions of little girls whom those female characters target.

In short: I think it's neither underappreciated nor overly lauded, but some people really overthink it when it comes to this movie for reasons I do not understand.
 
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DAHGAMING

Member
Im not a big Marvel gangsta, but I do watch the films for an easy watch, and for me IW and and Endgame are the best in the MCU, for me Endgame is slightly better.
 

pramod

Member
So I just wanted to give one last go at this. I know I won't change anyone's mind at this point, but I just wanted to point out that you can argue that Infinity War wasn't really an Avengers movie. It was a movie about Thanos and his quest.

Just think about how the movie was structured. The Avengers were all separated. And Thanos was going from place to place, gathering the stones. The story followed Thanos. He got the most screen time of any character in IW. In fact some of the Avengers got barely ANY time, like Black Widow and Hulk, and Hawkeye wasn't even in the movie at all. In fact Spiderman, the Guardians, and Doctor Strange got a lot more screen time than most of the Avengers.

On the other hand, Endgame is completely an Avengers movie, focused on the OG lineup. So you can say IW is the better movie, but I say it's not really an Avengers movie.
 
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gradient

Resident Cheap Arse
Doesn't matter where Thanos was hitting Steve, realistically he could snap Steve and Tony in half in an instant. Grab Steve's shield, rip his arm off, cave his head and then crush Tony's head.

But it's called giving the audience spectacle. Everyone wants to see Steve, Tony and Thor fight Thanos. But no one wants to see a fight last for 5 seconds.

As for Wanda and Carol, they are 2 of the strongest characters, both in the MCU and the comics. Realistically, Wanda could have exploded Thanos' head and end him right there rather than rip his armor off. Same with Carol, she could have done way more damage than she did.

The film actually does things in the opposite manner than what you think. It neutered Wanda and Carol and made Steve and Tony stronger than they should have been.

No, Wanda is just outright the most poorly written characters in the MCU (and in fantasy in general) wth her powers being wildly inconsistent and ill-defined from movie to movie and even scene to scene. She is a bad deus-ex and highlights the bad writing in Endgame where they ramp up her powers randomly to provide such moments.

Denvers is the epitomy of a bad Many Sue. She is the Rey of Endgame and her every appearance only serves to completely undermine everything built up so far. There is no point to anyone else going after Thanos when she can single handedly tank his best hits and rip through anything he has with such ease. The writing in Endgame is so bad that her very appearance in the battle only serves to make EVERYONE else look weak and redundant as she effortlessly takes out a threat that was portrayed as killing them all. So poorly concieved is the world design and event building in Endgame that In a matter of 2 minutes they go from portraying the battleship as a massive threat capable of ending everyone to a cheap visual spectacle, the destruction of which feels worthless and utterly undermines the drama and risk the writers tried to introduce mere moments ago.

You're right though, it is all done for spectable and that's the problem. It's not well developed or well-earned spectacle, it's cheap Fast and the Furious / Transformers style spectacle - tossing everything out the window without regard for what has been built-up or how it refects on the wider story and characters for the sake of a bit of flash-flashy bang-bang. Cheap, ill-considered and inconsistent writing that is ultimately immersion destroying and falls apart the moment the audience blinks and thinks about the level of stupid they've just been fed and expected to swallow.

Endgame is a film that tears what it was built upon down. It picks at the movies it was built upon and relies on cheap spectacle. Whereas Infinity War tries to build up the characters, movies and events that it stands upon and works to build everyone up, Endgame does the opposite and follows the lazy writing trend of trying to set up something new by tearing what came before it down. It makes constant swipes at past movies, it continually undermines the characters making a joke of them and sacrifices the writing and world building that came before to give characters like Denvers, Wanda and the Instagram crew moments that were not earned and as such fall flat or outright break the movie.
 
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pramod

Member
Im not gonna argue that Capt Marvels presence made the movie worse. But that would apply to every movie she is in.

I blame Feige for that not the directors who were probably forced to include her.
 

Alcibiades

Member
And of course...




Why on earth the woman who just ripped through the massive battleship like tissue paper would need "help" getting through the grunts is never explained. Instead we just have this staggeringly badly concieved moment where all the girls have gathered for an instagram moment, abandoning everyone else to fight and die on the battlefield so they can run support for someone who clearly doesn't need support.

Endgame was pretty and had a lot of money put into it, but that can't make up for the awful writing and how badly it outright undermines most of the characters that the franchise was built around.
Do these people even know each other. When I think of alternate Gamora in this scene I laugh at how stupid this is that she would even partake here, but the rest don't make sense either. Why are they all teaming up in battle formation like they've been working together forever? This scene is stupid and really takes you out of the movie - it breaks the fourth wall and it's so transparent what is going on.

In comparison, when I first saw IW and the "girl power" scene came up I didn't even see it as such. In the back of my mind I think I thought, oh it's cool to see the two female avengers stick up for one another. I didn't even realize until several viewings and online discussion how intentional it was. It flowed and fit nicely with the story and action on screen:

 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Endgame is an absolute turd and Infinity War takes a massive shit into that movie.
 

sol_bad

Member
Do these people even know each other. When I think of alternate Gamora in this scene I laugh at how stupid this is that she would even partake here, but the rest don't make sense either. Why are they all teaming up in battle formation like they've been working together forever? This scene is stupid and really takes you out of the movie - it breaks the fourth wall and it's so transparent what is going on.

Endgame 2014 Gamora was still hiding Vormir from her father. She didn't want him gaining all 6 stones. She actively helped free present time Nebula from capture and wanted to help stop Thanos.

And again, the scene is there for spectacle and it's a very popular shot.
 

TonyK

Member
Just a week ago I saw again Infinity War and Endgame, and for me Infinity War is better. Infinity War is enjoyable during all the movie, from beginning to end. Endgame seems a movie only done to justify filming the final (an amazing) battle.
 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Things went well overall for the avengers movies they’re signed up for more movies which will bring the heat to theaters.
 

dr_octagon

Gold Member
They should have ended it with Infinity War. Build up suspense for 2+ years, write a better script and surprise everyone.

Robert Downey recruits Tom Cruise and Michael Fassbender as the multiverse Iron Men to take on Thanos.
 

Alcibiades

Member
Endgame 2014 Gamora was still hiding Vormir from her father. She didn't want him gaining all 6 stones. She actively helped free present time Nebula from capture and wanted to help stop Thanos.

And again, the scene is there for spectacle and it's a very popular shot.
I totally get that she was trying to take down Thanos but based on the personality we've seen in GoTG she doesn't seem to be the type to for a feel-good Avengers teamup in the middle of a battle.

Shouldn't a team up scene have to earn its place after buildup of the character relationships? Like that airport scene in Civil War, you knew the dynamics the characters had with one another - which had just met and been given orders, which had long standing good or bad relationships, it made more sense. Even in the IW scene on Titan where GoTG teamed up with Spidey and Strange, there was some strategy and talk beforehand. The "girl power" in Endgame just came out of nowhere.
 
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