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Is Sony's liquid metal TIM the new standard to follow for others in the industry (console and/or PC)? Poll Inside!

Is Sony's liquid metal TIM the new standard to follow for others in the industry (console and/or PC)


  • Total voters
    257

RedVIper

Banned
If my letters arrive safe and sound, why should I use email?
If my horse carriage takes me to the mall, why should I get a car?
If my smoke signals are translatable, why buy a phone?

Those all have obvious advantages.

Considering the drawbacks that liquid metal have, in a non closed system like the ps5, laptops, etc, what are the advantages I'd be getting from this exactly?
 

Was quoting from memory...it is still a significant improvement in thermal performance.

Again. You have no idea what you're talking about. That is not an article comparing TIM to liquid metal (it only seems like it is). It's an article that's exposing Intel's use of cheap TIM under the IHS. And they aren't even suggesting Intel to use liquid metal. They are suggesting soldier.

But it's way more dangerous to try and soldier a naked die in a DIY situation. I don't even know how you would do that to be honest. So they use liquid metal, as it's less dangerous. Not "safe", just less dangerous. You can absolutely fuck up your brand new CPU or GPU during the delid process if you don't know what you're doing.

Your comments about how you just "don't understand" why PC users wouldn't put liquid metal on all their CPUs and GPUs, show you have no clue what you're talking about. You don't know what you're talking about, but you're ITT talking up liquid metal in the PS5 like it's this new thing. It's not new.
 
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Bryank75

Banned
As someone that runs a de-lidded 6700k with liquid metal I can say that its amazing stuff. My temps dropped 20C. The delid helped obviously, but I have been super impressed with the liquid metal.

Very happy to see Sony using it because it's definitely great when used properly. Their TIM design with that nice heatsink should work very well.
Glad to see there is someone around that has actual experience of this and doesn't just resort to insults.
It's an interesting concept and I'd love to hear how you went about it...
 
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Jmatt110

Member
The differences in temperatures you are seeing there is a combination of delidding and the liquid metal, not just the liquid metal alone.

Honestly, it's best that most people don't even speak about this subject without educating themselves first. There have been some embarrassing takes in this thread so far.

Agreed, there's a lot of misinformed/misunderstanding people in this thread.

For those who want to know more about cooling and TIM in general, lookup the following as a start:

What an IHS is
CPU Delidding
IHS Solder
Direct die cooling
 

Bryank75

Banned
As they said themselves, it needed extensive testing and sealing over more than two years. Not every old PC builder is up to the job. Worst thing that happens when you fuck up thermal paste is it runs hotter than normal.

Big benefits, but it needs their level of meticulous testing for a mass consumer device.
So based on this could we see further divergence in consoles and PC?

We already saw SSD controllers on PS5 change from the traditional way...

Now we see liquid metal being adapted.

Could we see more major customization in the future?

I was also questioning how Nvidia buying ARM might effect gaming...
 
Glad to see there is someone around that has actual experience of this and doesn't just resort to insults.
It's an interesting concept and I'd love to hear how you went about it...

You're still doing it.

You don't know what you're talking about. To you, right now applying liquid metal is an "interesting concept that you'd love to know more about"

Fine, learn more about it.

But if you're so new to this topic, WHY are you in here trying to convince eveyonethat liquid metal is this miracle that will lower temps by half? WHY are you in here "confused" about "why don't all PC users put liquid metal on everything?" I mean liquid metal is clearly a new miracle,recently invented by Cerny, right?
 

SantaC

Member
As someone that runs a de-lidded 6700k with liquid metal I can say that its amazing stuff. My temps dropped 20C. The delid helped obviously, but I have been super impressed with the liquid metal.

Very happy to see Sony using it because it's definitely great when used properly. Their TIM design with that nice heatsink should work very well.
So basically it has been around for PC for years. Why is OP stating othervise?
 
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CeeJay

Member
Are you honestly comparing machine applied liquid metal cooling with an engineered solution that took 2 years to perfect with some guy at home using liquid cooling on a "stock" system?
All well and good as long as the solution doesn't start to show problems after 3 years of service.
 

Bryank75

Banned
You're still doing it.

You don't know what you're talking about. To you, right now applying liquid metal is an "interesting concept that you'd love to know more about"

Fine, learn more about it.

But if you're so new to this topic, WHY are you in here trying to convince eveyonethat liquid metal is this miracle that will lower temps by half? WHY are you in here "confused" about "why don't all PC users put liquid metal on everything?" I mean liquid metal is clearly a new miracle,recently invented by Cerny, right?
I misquoted the heat thing and then quickly corrected it with the reference...

I didn't ever say it was a miracle or was invented by Cerny, so you are just projecting....

Why are you so angry? People can't be inquisitive or ask questions anymore without being attacked? FFS...

You seem like a real cool guy!
 

LordOfChaos

Member
I hope some tech youtuber is going to take their PS5 apart and replace the liquid metal with plain old Arctic Silver just to see how it affects temps. I don't think the liquid metal hype crowd would be all too pleased with the results.

Yeah I'm also curious what they're going to say about this. Liquid Metal transfers 73 W/(mK), vs 1-12 from standard thermal paste, if you take it apart I would assume you can't just replace it with standard thermal paste.

Probably their official stance is just don't take it apart though.
 
I just want to point out that people here that don't see how this would apply to pc in the same way are just stuck in the present.

They don't seem to see any way how that could be transferred to normal pc users.

I could imagine some type of fixture that can be applied ontop of the CPU that does what sony does to the APU and therefore providing better thermal conductivity. 🤷‍♂️

People should try to think outside the box once in a while. 🙄
 
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tryDEATH

Member
Are you honestly comparing machine applied liquid metal cooling with an engineered solution that took 2 years to perfect with some guy at home using liquid cooling on a "stock" system?



They didn't invent a new element with new properties, it is the same element that is supposed to fulfill the same function. Being skeptical about its long term efficiency is completely valid as much as you are trying to ignore it.
 
The liquid metal on cpu has been used on PCs for years as someone pointed out

You quite often see it in laptops

Liquid metal is not the be all and end all to cooling problems and I’m trying to be as careful as possible to not trigger some folk

you have 2 main issues and anyone with a gaming laptop can attest to this
As they get older intakes and outtakes get dust so regular cleaning is required and looking at the teardown some parts are not physically accessible to clean out without voiding your warranty and if you have ever pulled apart a ps4 pro you get some hard caked dust in parts you can’t get to without voiding your warranty which requires physical removal with a cotton tip.

the ps5 does appear to have massive intakes (dual sided this time) and outlets but these vents will also suck up a large amount of dust...the cleaning outlets they have pointed out may remove some of this but not all.

the second part is the heat sink on the bottom..a heat sink works by distributing heat through the sink and is cooled by airflow....if you have a reduced airflow as per point 1 it’s not as effective

I wished they went with a vapour chamber option as it works much better as a whole for the rest of the components and in particular if you have a reduced airflow

4vstkrh.jpg


the liquid metal on the cpu is a more direct option to the above but it is focused on the cpu/gpu ...there are other parts in the case such as ssd/ram which also generate heat
I think they missed an opportunity to really nail the cooling by offering a vapour chamber as it benefits the whole unit.

Sony have made some great steps in the design but I would still be very cautious about thinking it’s going to be quiet all the time you have it

If your wondering what my experience is with this sort of stuff...I make a good side hustle repairing/cleaning and adding custom cooling to ps4 consoles

Seems like your side-hustle is going to increase in order of magnitude thanks to Sony's new cooling solution :messenger_winking:. Good post.
 
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Dodkrake

Banned
That depends on how many people they can get to fall for it.

Nice argument. Care to elaborate?

Those all have obvious advantages.

Considering the drawbacks that liquid metal have, in a non closed system like the ps5, laptops, etc, what are the advantages I'd be getting from this exactly?

Please state the drawbacks on a liquid metal system equiparable to the PS5. It must be

  1. engineered to support liquid metal as a factory standard
  2. Consumer grade electronic designed to mostly play games
  3. have liquid metal machine applied in factory
I'll grab a chair

They didn't invent a new element with new properties, it is the same element that is supposed to fulfill the same function. Being skeptical about its long term efficiency is completely valid as much as you are trying to ignore it.

Nice straw man. I did not state aything about its long term efficiency, I questioned the validity (quite ironically) of your statement, since you compared a solution engineered and manufactured to support liquid metal with what is no more than homebrew.

Mate, this already exists on PC, and it's not that much better that good thermal paste.

I hate this forum sometimes.

Please show a solution tailored for liquid metal and a comparison between said solution using liquid metal and standard thermal paste. Homebrew doesn't count.
 
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RedVIper

Banned
I just want to point out that people here that don't see how this would apply to pc in the same way are just stuck in the present.

They don't seem to see any way how that could be transferred to normal pc users.

I could imagine some type of fixture that can be applied ontop of the CPU that does what sony does to the APU and therefore providing better thermal conductivity. 🤷‍♂️

People should try to think outside the box once in a while. 🙄

Mate, this already exists on PC, and it's not that much better that good thermal paste.

I hate this forum sometimes.
 

Tschumi

Member
This is all great, I'm behind it, but Jesus i can't imagine how bad it must be for the environment for them to Minecraft down Mt Everest for a drop of liquid metal for every PS5 (hyperbole)
 

sixamp

Member
I'm sure sony has tested this a billion times but I'd be worried about people moving the console around that that liquid metal leaking into transistor by the cpu chip. This has always been a worry in the pc world and PC's basically stay in one spot
 
Seems like your side-hustle is going to increase in order of magnitude thanks to Sony's new cooling solution :messenger_winking:. Good post.
i have a 3d printer now so i can bake the fans into the case rather than the dremel and screw options i have now
the case panels also open up some interesting options

i cant wait to get my hands on it to start playing

I just wish MS consoles were as locked down..i got no options with the new design i dont think
 

Dodkrake

Banned
Considering this wasn't the use case I was talking about, wtf are you rambling about?

You're deflecting. You stated it's not that much better, so, on a system like the PS5, how is liquid metal not that much better, and what is your control group?

For all we know it could offer 75% lower temperatures (it won't, but the point stands)
 
As someone that runs a de-lidded 6700k with liquid metal I can say that its amazing stuff. My temps dropped 20C. The delid helped obviously, but I have been super impressed with the liquid metal.

Very happy to see Sony using it because it's definitely great when used properly. Their TIM design with that nice heatsink should work very well.

Your comment, while true, is misleading SOME people into believing that liquid metal is far better than it really is.

The missing context here is that Intel was using really shit quality TIM under the IHS (instead of the far better option of soldier).

This shit quality TIM did lead to higher temps. So much so that people started deliding their expensive new CPUs just to try and get these temps under control.

Your temp dropping 20 degrees isn't because liquid metal is so much better. It was because Intel's shitty TIM was so much worse.

If Intel had just soldiered the 6700k you never would have had to apply liquid metal in the first place.
 
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Put me down for: "Who fucking cares?!" I didn't see that in the poll.

Folks arguing for or against have no idea and are just guessing anyway. I'll just assume it works as designed and helps dissipate heat well. It's not some huge mistake nor is it some type of competitive advantage. It just is.
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
First SSDs, now liquid metal cooling, how will PC gamers ever recover?

But seriously, as always, liquid metal doesn’t really make sense on PC unless you’ve heavy over clock. Even standard thermal paste and included coolers can do pretty decent OCs on AMD chips.
 

RedVIper

Banned
You're deflecting. You stated it's not that much better, so, on a system like the PS5, how is liquid metal not that much better, and what is your control group?

I posted a comparassion in the first page of the thread. Go there and check it.

And again, I was not talking about a closed system like the PS5, I was talking about an open system like a PC, where the risk for error is greater, and the advantages over regular thermal paste isn't worth it.
 

Dodkrake

Banned
I posted a comparassion in the first page of the thread. Go there and check it.

And again, I was not talking about a closed system like the PS5, I was talking about an open system like a PC, where the risk for error is greater, and the advantages over regular thermal paste isn't worth it.

So why is it that you're comparing apples to oranges?

Because if it touches the circuitry, the part might go bye-bye.

If my grandma had balls she'd by my grandad.

Your comment, while true, is misleading SOME people into believing that liquid metal is far better than it really is.

The missing context here is that Intel was using really shit quality TIM under the IHS (instead of the far better option of soldier).

This shit quality TIM did lead to higher temps. So much so that people started deliding their expensive new CPUs just to try and get these temps under control.

Your temp dropping 20 degrees isn't because liquid metal is so much better. It was because Intel's shitty TIM was so much worse.

If Intel had just soldiered the 6700k you never would have had to apply liquid metal in the first place.

Your comment is also disingenous. Delidding is basically done to either increase the surface contact and / or remove any reactive material. I'm pretty sure the Engineering team at Sony has thought about metals that don't react with their liquid metal for the APU.

I love how something Sony adopts that PCs have had for years is now something Sony invented and will push the industry. This is like Apple fans getting giddy over mobile payments back in 2015.

Thing is, consumer electronics don't usually use liquid metal as a factory standard. ROG recently started using it, but before, you only had home mods. So it is a step forward in industry adoption. And as with pretty much everything, if successful, MS will follow suit.
 

BigMadAndy

Neo Member
The fact that they have been working on it for 2 years suggests that they had a higher clocked GPU in mind for a long time. Makes me wonder if there are some inherent advantages to a higher clock rate, like Cerny said at one point in the presentation a while ago. I guess time will tell. I wonder if the liquid metal solution was required to keep the CU count high while still chasing this desirable high clock speed. It's giong to be intriguing seeing how it plays out once both consoles release
 

Pallas

Member
I’m getting déjà vu, this reminds me when the Xbox one X cooling solution was revealed, and how some herald it as a game changer.
 

RedVIper

Banned
So why is it that you're comparing apples to oranges?

Because I was answering to this you absolute vegetable.

"I find it a bit strange that PC gamers might go out and buy a 3090 or a high end CPU and then dollop on some cheap thermal paste, when they can get liquid metal (not exactly the same as PS5) equivalent and reduce heat by nearly a half though.... "
 
I guess we will see won't we and ps5 early adopters will be the guinea pigs. Maybe it revolutionizes the industry (unlikely), maybe it backfires horribly on its users (more likely), maybe it's just not as big of a deal as Sony fanboys would like you to believe and it only offers small benefits over easier and more user friendly solutions (this is what is going to happen).

It's all speculation until it's in the hands of actual people getting shipped these consoles all over the world. The fanboyism on this forum is becoming tiresome. Hyping up liquid metal cooling? Really?

There is something odd about a group of people being overly concerned about what's inside a box that is designed to keep those people out and it's sole existence is to not challenge it's users to think about what is inside either.

Once every 5-7 years, people who know nothing about the inner workings of a pc or a console suddenly become very vocal and it's really annoying. It was annoying as a console gamer and it's even more annoying now seeing the obvious strings on these fanboys arms. Stick to your 500 dollar box that you aren't allowed to tinker with and focus on the games, eh? Let the people who have to worry about cooling their components decide if liquid metal is worth it. (Hint:it's definitely not a one size fits all solution)

Sony choosing it does not suddenly mean it's the best thing ever and everyone needs it. Sorry
 
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VAVA Mk2

Member
So why is it that you're comparing apples to oranges?



If my grandma had balls she'd by my grandad.



Your comment is also disingenous. Delidding is basically done to either increase the surface contact and / or remove any reactive material. I'm pretty sure the Engineering team at Sony has thought about metals that don't react with their liquid metal for the APU.



Thing is, consumer electronics don't usually use liquid metal as a factory standard. ROG recently started using it, but before, you only had home mods. So it is a step forward in industry adoption. And as with pretty much everything, if successful, MS will follow suit.
Again...spoken just like an Apple fan after Apple "invented" mobile payments.
 

Dodkrake

Banned
Because I was answering to this you absolute vegetable.

"I find it a bit strange that PC gamers might go out and buy a 3090 or a high end CPU and then dollop on some cheap thermal paste, when they can get liquid metal (not exactly the same as PS5) equivalent and reduce heat by nearly a half though.... "

Nice ad hominem.

Then what the fuck is it you're asking when the answer is obvious?

What is the obvious answer? You've so far failed to demonstrate it.

Again...spoken just like an Apple fan after Apple "invented" mobile payments.

Another ad hominem.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Thing is, consumer electronics don't usually use liquid metal as a factory standard. ROG recently started using it, but before, you only had home mods. So it is a step forward in industry adoption. And as with pretty much everything, if successful, MS will follow suit.

No, MS will not follow suit, unless they build a system that needs this. The vast majority of tech doesn’t use it because it doesn’t need it.

As others have pointed out, liquid metal is not objectively better. It is good for some purposes, but has some drawbacks. As others have said, it is likely that Sony’s high clock speeds pushed them towards this solution.
 
I misquoted the heat thing and then quickly corrected it with the reference...

I didn't ever say it was a miracle or was invented by Cerny, so you are just projecting....

Why are you so angry? People can't be inquisitive or ask questions anymore without being attacked? FFS...

You seem like a real cool guy!

You weren't asking questions. You were spreading FUD because you were literally tripping over yourself to try and inflate the importance of liquid metal in the PS5, to be far more important than it really is.

The only thing you're doing is looking for more ammo to use to be a better console warrior. It's not your intention to learn anything unless it's something you want to hear.

At least be honest with yourself.
 
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First SSDs, now liquid metal cooling, how will PC gamers ever recover?

But seriously, as always, liquid metal doesn’t really make sense on PC unless you’ve heavy over clock. Even standard thermal paste and included coolers can do pretty decent OCs on AMD chips.

The Ryzen2 chips don't even OC much anyways and the fact that PCs use CPU coolers instead of giant heatsinks also alleviates the issue. Thermal paste and my 280mm water-cooler keep my 3900x pretty freaking cool with plain ole artic silver. I think this is where some of these guys miss the points with PCs.... We don't typically have the cooling issues that consoles have because the form factor is larger, fans are more abundant, and liquid cooling in becoming more common. Heck both my CPU and GPU are liquid cooled.
 

Dodkrake

Banned
No, MS will not follow suit, unless they build a system that needs this. The vast majority of tech doesn’t use it because it doesn’t need it.

As others have pointed out, liquid metal is not objectively better. It is good for some purposes, but has some drawbacks. As others have said, it is likely that Sony’s high clock speeds pushed them towards this solution.

Agreed on your first point

Disagree on your second point, somewhat. From a cooling standpoint, it is objectively better. From an engineering standpoint, it did show some drawbacks as it took longer to develop. Now we're onto seeing if the effort will pay off and if other players will adopt similar solutions. ROG is transitioning to liquid metal as well, for example.

You came into the thread., failed to read what I was answering to, and then started shit slinging all over the place. Admit that you were wrong and move on.

And I'll ask you: Where was I wrong?
 
Your comment is also disingenous. Delidding is basically done to either increase the surface contact and / or remove any reactive material. I'm pretty sure the Engineering team at Sony has thought about metals that don't react with their liquid metal for the APU.

Your comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with my comment. Did you accidentally quote the wrong person?
 
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