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[BluRayHiDef]

Sony tackled the issue by sealing the die and the compound hermetically under the radiator. We've seen this on their patent, but couldn't interpret it earlier.

You can see on the pic that there's a seal around SOC chip with a tiny gap around.

Gap is for the thermal expansion of LM. If it was sealed flat, there would be constant pressure build-ups during heating up which might have lead to die degradation.

It's clearly visible on the patent, that this tiny gap creates a compartment around the SOC, and all conductive elements are sealed under and around it.



Providing the CPU has around 40W TDP and GPU can be estimated up to 140W, this is a really nice solution. I think that PS5 has to run cool, not for the sake of being quiet, but for the necessity of high clocks speed. OC 1.0.1 - to increase the clock you either push more voltage or lower the temps, usually both until you hit the wall.

Sony had to keep the temps low, to be able to hit 2.23 GHz without pushing more voltage. And it's very much connected to the SOC architecture approach they took (vide Mark's explanation on Road to PS5 presentation). The variable clock rates and the AMD smart shift are limiting clocks to a fixed power budget, but when you keep the temps at bay, the same power budget allows you to crank the clocks higher.

What material is the seal made of?

 

[sublimit]

I'm curious to know the reason, is it costs?

Pretty sure he will tell you "it's because it's unreliable on longterm" completely disregarding the fact that it's different technology and that Sony put a huge effort (and obviously money) on its research and production in order to make it safe for longterm use.

 

[TheContact]

What material is the seal made of?

no one knows, i'm guessing polycarbonite with a flame retardant coating. would be interesting to find out though

 

[BlackTron]

Why does everything have to be insane solution like liquid metal/water cooling OR cheap thermal paste?

I mean, maybe the PS4 would have been fine if they just used decent thermal paste that wasn't garbage.

I find it funny that Sony just never used a decent thermal paste. They went directly from garbage right to LIQUID EFFING METAL. It's kind of like how we went from a joke 5400rpm hard drive to the newest SSDs that are hardly in the store yet. What crazy extremes.

 

[GAMETA]

So if my son accidentally hard bumps into my PS5 and it falls to the floor, there's a chance hazardous liquid metal will pour out of it? If someone throws a PS5 in the sea, will marine life survive?

I knew Sony was cancerous, but this is in a whole other level.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

no one knows, i'm guessing polycarbonite with a flame retardant coating. would be interesting to find out though

Interesting. So, even though it's a barrier between the liquid metal and the heatsink, it doesn't compromise the conduction of heat between the two? Not even to a negligible degree? Also, how is it perfectly sealed? How much force do you suppose is necessary to remove it and subsequently how tamper-proof and resistant to incidental removal by shock do you think it is?

Sorry for all of the questions, but this is fascinating.

 

[MoreJRPG]

Have used both, liquid metal and thermal paste. Thermal paste is the way better option for longevity. Performance wise I noticed a 2 degree reduction using the liquid metal but it dried up twice on me in two seperate rigs and at one point almost fried my system because of it. It’s really a baffling decision from Sony because I have no idea how they expect this to function for the entire 6-7 year lifecycle. Maybe they’ve revolutionized it somehow, but as of right now we’ll just sit and wait.

 

[Jmatt110]

I'm curious to know the reason, is it costs?

Mostly ease of use (or lack thereof) in the DIY PC space. Have a look at my other posts in this thread for a longer explanation.

Pretty sure he will tell you "it's because it's unreliable on longterm" completely disregarding the fact that it's different technology and that Sony put a huge effort (and obviously money) on its research and production in order to make it safe for longterm use.

If you look at my posts in this thread, I've never once mentioned anything about long-term unreliability.

 

[TheContact]

Interesting. So, even though it's a barrier between the liquid metal and the heatsink, it doesn't compromise the conduction of heat between the two? Not even to a negligible degree? Also, how is it perfectly sealed? How much force do you suppose is necessary to remove it and subsequently how tamper-proof and resistant to incidental removal by shock do you think it is?

Sorry for all of the questions, but this is fascinating.

all great questions that only the engineers know. i imagine there is some compromise when a barrier is introduced but despite that it far out performs thermal paste which doesn't have a barrier. how it's sealed...probably a heat resistant glue. I imagine it's a "closed" system that is not intended to ever be opened.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

I’d love to use liquid metal but if you use it incorrectly it’ll ruin your electronics so I stay away from it.

 

[Kenpachii]

Its already available for PC for a long time now, i never applied it because of the risks that are simple not worth it.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

all great questions that only the engineers know. i imagine there is some compromise when a barrier is introduced but despite that it far out performs thermal paste which doesn't have a barrier. how it's sealed...probably a heat resistant glue. I imagine it's a "closed" system that is not intended to ever be opened.

Interesting. Whatever heat resistant glue is used must have a very, very high thermal tolerance; that's gotta be one hell of a glue.

 

[ethomaz]

At one point I considered going liquid metal for my CPU. Things looked beneficial at first, from simply seeing temperature comparisons alone. But then reading all of the maintenance and issues that come with it, I said hell to the nah. I've never had heat issues, even with a pretty sizeable OC on cpu/gpu.

There is no maintenance unless you need to do a upgrade.

You will only need to reapply the liquid metal if you applied wrong the first time.

 

[ethomaz]

I'm curious to know the reason, is it costs?

It is risk.
You need to apply it perfectly or deal with issues to the point to lose your components.
But if done right you will never have any issue and it will last more than thermal paste doing a better job.

 

[ethomaz]

So if my son accidentally hard bumps into my PS5 and it falls to the floor, there's a chance hazardous liquid metal will pour out of it? If someone throws a PS5 in the sea, will marine life survive?

I knew Sony was cancerous, but this is in a whole other level.

I don't think that is possible to happen.
There is protection and the pressure itself doesn't allow that.

Unless you open the PS5 to the point to remove the components over the liquid metal and mess up putting it back.

 

[ethomaz]

Have used both, liquid metal and thermal paste. Thermal paste is the way better option for longevity. Performance wise I noticed a 2 degree reduction using the liquid metal but it dried up twice on me in two seperate rigs and at one point almost fried my system because of it. It’s really a baffling decision from Sony because I have no idea how they expect this to function for the entire 6-7 year lifecycle. Maybe they’ve revolutionized it somehow, but as of right now we’ll just sit and wait.

Like every other PC user that has liquid metal running for near a decade?
Sorry to say that but if you have it dried up it is because you did something wrong when applying it.
It is really not a easy task.

Liquid metal longevity is bigger than thermal paste.

 

[Allandor]

Liquid metal is just not better enough to add the additional risk of breaking your system because of leaking liquid metal that can transfer power and also is quite aggressive.
I know Why I don't use it.

Also the extra stuff to seal the liquid metal is not that good at transferring heat away from the soc. Airflow under the cooler would than be better for the case of transferring heat as fast as possible.
It is nice they have done so much stuff to cool it, but it is a bit overengineered here.

 

[TheContact]

Interesting. Whatever heat resistant glue is used must have a very, very high thermal tolerance; that's gotta be one hell of a glue.

probably epoxy or acrylics, both have good heat resistances

 

[Garani]

Liquid metal is just not better enough to add the additional risk of breaking your system because of leaking liquid metal that can transfer power and also is quite aggressive.
I know Why I don't use it.

You are not Sony. This is why you don't use it, and for very good reasons.

Also the extra stuff to seal the liquid metal is not that good at transferring heat away from the soc. Airflow under the cooler would than be better for the case of transferring heat as fast as possible.
It is nice they have done so much stuff to cool it, but it is a bit overengineered here.

Well, I think that Sony has spent quite a few man hours on the problem. If it is overengineered or not I can't say, but certainly it makes sense for them.

 

[New Yorks Finest]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

Bu..bu if Liquid Metal cooling solution has been in the market for a long time and "NOT" commonly used in the PC world ..why did Sony engineers spend over 2yrs on this project for this tech to work with an amazing results??

 

[Allandor]

You are not Sony. This is why you don't use it, and for very good reasons.



Well, I think that Sony has spent quite a few man hours on the problem. If it is overengineered or not I can't say, but certainly it makes sense for them.

Yes, it is the problem they made themselfs. Smaller chip & high clockrates are not such a good combination for demanding workflows, at least not at 7nm. Because Die size is so small, the heat-transfer can get problematic. So they seem to need such a solution to transfer the heat away fast enough. But liquid metal is at best 1.x°C better (3°C if you use a really, really bad paste). But from additional airflow under the cooler, you could also get it (at least if you don't have a breaket (or how this is called in english) that prevents additional airflow like the xbox has).
Something like a heatpipe that gets an airflow around the Die itself would be great, but I guess this would be even harder to fabricate.

 

[Garani]

Bu..bu if Liquid Metal cooling solution has been in the market for a long time and "NOT" commonly used in the PC world ..why did Sony engineers spend over 2yrs on this project for this tech to work with an amazing results??

Because they had to work on the right compound and finding the engineering solution that would give the best balance between transfer efficiency and product safety.

 

[Grinchy]

Why do so many people who watched a youtube video about Conductonaut liquid metal back in 2018 think they know more about it than professional hardware engineers?

It's hilarious what's being said by some people.

 

[bad guy]

Liquid nitrogen is way more than effective than liquid metal. Overclockers have been using it for years on PC.


*troll face*

 

[reptilex]

The liquid metal on cpu has been used on PCs for years as someone pointed out

You quite often see it in laptops

Asus Will Use Liquid Metal Thermal Paste in Its Laptops - ExtremeTech

Asus will adopt liquid metal thermal paste on its Intel 10th Gen laptops, to improve cooling temperatures -- and help handle the heat.

www.extremetech.com

Liquid metal is not the be all and end all to cooling problems and I’m trying to be as careful as possible to not trigger some folk

you have 2 main issues and anyone with a gaming laptop can attest to this
As they get older intakes and outtakes get dust so regular cleaning is required and looking at the teardown some parts are not physically accessible to clean out without voiding your warranty and if you have ever pulled apart a ps4 pro you get some hard caked dust in parts you can’t get to without voiding your warranty which requires physical removal with a cotton tip.

the ps5 does appear to have massive intakes (dual sided this time) and outlets but these vents will also suck up a large amount of dust...the cleaning outlets they have pointed out may remove some of this but not all.

the second part is the heat sink on the bottom..a heat sink works by distributing heat through the sink and is cooled by airflow....if you have a reduced airflow as per point 1 it’s not as effective

I wished they went with a vapour chamber option as it works much better as a whole for the rest of the components and in particular if you have a reduced airflow

the liquid metal on the cpu is a more direct option to the above but it is focused on the cpu/gpu ...there are other parts in the case such as ssd/ram which also generate heat
I think they missed an opportunity to really nail the cooling by offering a vapour chamber as it benefits the whole unit.

Sony have made some great steps in the design but I would still be very cautious about thinking it’s going to be quiet all the time you have it

If your wondering what my experience is with this sort of stuff...I make a good side hustle repairing/cleaning and adding custom cooling to ps4 consoles

What would have been the difference with a vapour chamber in terms of: size, noise and efficiency (and price)?

 

[M1chl]

What would have been the difference with a vapour chamber in terms of: size, noise and efficiency (and price)?

It does not have to do anything in common, liquid metal is conductivity medium between chip and cooler (which then can be anything). This is like a more advance thermal paste.

 

[New Yorks Finest]

The liquid metal on cpu has been used on PCs for years as someone pointed out

You quite often see it in laptops

Asus Will Use Liquid Metal Thermal Paste in Its Laptops - ExtremeTech

Asus will adopt liquid metal thermal paste on its Intel 10th Gen laptops, to improve cooling temperatures -- and help handle the heat.

www.extremetech.com

Liquid metal is not the be all and end all to cooling problems and I’m trying to be as careful as possible to not trigger some folk

you have 2 main issues and anyone with a gaming laptop can attest to this
As they get older intakes and outtakes get dust so regular cleaning is required and looking at the teardown some parts are not physically accessible to clean out without voiding your warranty and if you have ever pulled apart a ps4 pro you get some hard caked dust in parts you can’t get to without voiding your warranty which requires physical removal with a cotton tip.

the ps5 does appear to have massive intakes (dual sided this time) and outlets but these vents will also suck up a large amount of dust...the cleaning outlets they have pointed out may remove some of this but not all.

the second part is the heat sink on the bottom..a heat sink works by distributing heat through the sink and is cooled by airflow....if you have a reduced airflow as per point 1 it’s not as effective

I wished they went with a vapour chamber option as it works much better as a whole for the rest of the components and in particular if you have a reduced airflow

the liquid metal on the cpu is a more direct option to the above but it is focused on the cpu/gpu ...there are other parts in the case such as ssd/ram which also generate heat
I think they missed an opportunity to really nail the cooling by offering a vapour chamber as it benefits the whole unit.

Sony have made some great steps in the design but I would still be very cautious about thinking it’s going to be quiet all the time you have it

If your wondering what my experience is with this sort of stuff...I make a good side hustle repairing/cleaning and adding custom cooling to ps4 consoles

But at the End of the day, nothing to worry about PS5s longevity in the long run? (In regards of Liquid cooling)

 

[ethomaz]

The liquid metal on cpu has been used on PCs for years as someone pointed out

You quite often see it in laptops

Asus Will Use Liquid Metal Thermal Paste in Its Laptops - ExtremeTech

Asus will adopt liquid metal thermal paste on its Intel 10th Gen laptops, to improve cooling temperatures -- and help handle the heat.

www.extremetech.com

Asus probably made these notebooks to age 2 years only if you read this thread

 

[Jokerevo]

lmao the number of experts in this thread that need to look up the word proprietary. This solution was obviously one of several that Sony would have researched. They didn't just select TIM for the hell of it, they found a way to make it work. I mean Sony is a hardware specialist, that's their thing. MS is software specialist and it shows

 

[The_Mike]

Pretty sure he will tell you "it's because it's unreliable on longterm" completely disregarding the fact that it's different technology and that Sony put a huge effort (and obviously money) on its research and production in order to make it safe for longterm use.

Well Samsung has put a huge effort into oled, and today we still see burn in in the displays.

Huge effort doesn't equal always perfection.

 

[martino]

Asus probably made these notebooks to age 2 years only if you read this thread

 

[sublimit]

Well Samsung has put a huge effort into oled, and today we still see burn in in the displays.

Huge effort doesn't equal always perfection.

It also doesn't equal 100% disaster something that a lot of xbox fanboys are trying to spin it especially now that the PS5 not having RDNA 2 myth is busted and they have to find something else to bitch about.

I don't know maybe i'm crazy but if a company that specializes in hardware has spent the time and money for 2 whole years trying to find how to make the liquid metal work i believe that it will actually work.
Of course we can't be sure about anything until any console is out for at least a year but based on facts i'm willing to believe that this is actual a GREAT (and expensive) cooling solution rather than it is not.

 

[The_Mike]

It also doesn't equal 100% disaster something that a lot of xbox fanboys are trying to spin it especially now that the PS5 not having RDNA 2 myth was busted.

I don't know maybe i'm crazy but if a company that specializes in hardware has spent the time and money for 2 whole years trying to find how to make the liquid metal work i believe that it will actually work.
Of course we can't be sure about anything until any console is out for at least a year but based on facts i'm willing to believe that this is actual a GREAT (and expensive) cooling solution rather than it is not.

Apple are hardware devs. Remember when Apple released the iPhone (5 I think?) antenna didn't work properly when you hold the phone normally?

Steve Jobs fucking told people to use the phone a special way or buy a fucking bumper cover or whatever it was called?

No king rules forever. I ain't saying this tech is bad or anything. But I don't blindly trust tech like this from Sony, Microsoft, Asus you name it.

Water cooling has also been in pc for ages. I sure as hell ain't getting any liquid shit in my pc, because if it goes wrong, man everything is destroyed.

Imagine the stupid stand breaks, your console slides down or something. If the fan dies, oh well might change that.

But what would you expect would happen if this liquid metal gets everywhere because somethings leaking. Say goodbye to your console.

 

[Alebrije]

What uses Xbox Series X? The state of the art liquid metal or the old cheap thermal paste of last generation?

 

[FranXico]

What uses Xbox Series X? The state of the art liquid metal or the old cheap thermal paste of last generation?

Regular old thermal paste.

 

[Sophist]

I sure as hell ain't getting any liquid shit in my pc, because if it goes wrong, man everything is destroyed.

You could use a liquid that doesn't have any electrical conductivity.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Came for the Terminator jokes.

7/10, guys.

 

[captainraincoat]

What would have been the difference with a vapour chamber in terms of: size, noise and efficiency (and price)?

It’s really unknown price wise as it can be implemented in many different ways but vapour chambers shine in that they can spread heat out in a much better fashion then a standard heatsink and you could potentially cover more areas to dissipate heat.

the ps5 solution is not bad by no means and it’s a pretty massive heatsink so it should be much more effective than the ps4 at launch

The temps of the console really can’t be measured until it’s in real world settings so once you know that you get a rough idea on the effectiveness of the cooling and if you can swap out parts to improve it.

 

[hemo memo]

For a mass produced consumer product it is weird but amazing to see.

 

[MasterCornholio]

For a mass produced consumer product it is weird but amazing to see.

From what I'm reading liquid metal is better suited for automated production than manual application. Asus has a pretty sweet video on how they apply it to their laptops.

 

[Gamer79]

Pretty sure he will tell you "it's because it's unreliable on longterm" completely disregarding the fact that it's different technology and that Sony put a huge effort (and obviously money) on its research and production in order to make it safe for longterm use.

Agreed. Like these System Engineers did not think of these issues.

 

[El Sueño]

I think if the sell again more than 100 millions of units, that'd would say something to the market.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Agreed. Like these System Engineers did not think of these issues.

I think there is some merit to being wary about the new tech and its long term effectiveness. This application hasn't, to my knowledge, being featured in a consumer electronics product with mass market appeal such as a video game console before. But you're absolutely right to point out that to assume or suggest Sony didn't do its homework, or that the application is bound to somehow fail by default is also a big fat stretch with no basis.

I think that's the beauty of all of this. Proof of concept under rigorous usage regime as are video games consoles when playing graphically demanding games........ on a mass market level, 80 million -150 million consumers. It doesn't get better than that.

 

[mitchman]

Liquid Metal vs. Thermal Paste Benchmarks: Intel’s Thermal Problem, Pt1 | GamersNexus

stub There are many reasons that Intel may have opted for TIM with their CPUs, and given that the company hasn’t offered a statement of substance, we really have no exact idea of why different materials are selected. Using TIM could be a matter of cost – as seems to be the default assumption –...

www.gamersnexus.net

 

[Rival]

Q

 

[Gamer79]

As long as my PS5 doesn’t sound like a jet engine like my launch ps4 I don’t care if they use a cat turd as the cooling solution. Just want it to work.

I have a launch ps4 and rarely ever gets loud.

 

[LazyParrot]

I think if the sell again more than 100 millions of units, that'd would say something to the market.

Would it really, though?

I mean, they also sold 100 million units of a console with sub-par cooling. Xbox One had great cooling, but sold much worse. If anything, the logical conclusion anyone would draw from this is that the type of thermal compound used and the quality of the cooling system in general barely matters at all in terms of the overall success of a console.

 

[Rival]

I have a launch ps4 and rarely ever gets loud.

Mine was louder than my pro ever was by a large margin.

 

[Alebrije]

Regular old thermal paste.

 

[captainraincoat]

Looking at the teardown vid some more i believe the material is some sort of backup soaking material in the event of a leak
i personally don't fuck with liquid metal cooling on PC as its Conductive and fucks with anything Aluminium and i have seen some horror stories so risk vs reward has me sticking with normal thermal compound because im a clutz sometimes

Good quick search found this
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/...cts-copper-nickel-and-aluminum-corrosion-test
https://digitaladvisor.com/cpu/liquid-thermal/

The base plates of the heatsink appear to be copper but the rest are Aluminium fins

id be very careful moving a ps5 around after you have been playing it as it increases the risk of it potentially leaking if there is a drop
being as big as the ps5 i dont think you wont be moving it around that much unless your