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Jason Schreier: A look inside BioShock Infinite’s troubled development

That's no different than my office which has around the same number of people, someone asks a current or ex-coworker what it's like, the person says it's crap, and then that interviewer will blanket the other 199 current workers and 500 other ex-employees feel the same? Thats not how it works.

Going by his articles, you'd think every gaming employee is batting 1.000 saying working at a game maker sucks. I guess that's true since he never posts responses from people saying the company is decent or great to work at. I never knew that! lol

Bingo. All it takes is one person and then he just completely runs with it. In all my years in the industry while in crunch, unhappy or what have you, I once never thought..... "Ya know Upper, with how shit this is going right now let's call up this ol' gaming journo and spill my guts". It just doesn't make sense to me and all it takes is a person to burn that one bridge and you are toast with your career.
 

ZehDon

Gold Member
While an interesting excerpt, it's really nothing we didn't already know, and this is just an advertisement for this book. I'll wait for a sale; reads like the b-roll from his other book, which was kinda interesting, but far too light and insubstantial, coming across as heavily sanitised instead of actual "fly on the wall" factual writing. The gold standard for writing in this realm is Masters of Doom, and Schreier is a looong way off with this scatter shot stuff.
 
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nush

Member
It was demoralizing to put weeks of your life into something only to watch it get flushed down the drain. “It is tough when stuff gets cut or changed dramatically that people have worked on for months,” said Dowling. “That was definitely a thing that happened a lot at Irrational.”

“You spend a lot of time and put your heart and soul into something just to have it disappear in the span of a meeting,” said Bill Gardner, who had helped lead the multiplayer team. “You never really get over that.”


Lol these people should leave the creative industry immediately. The first thing you learn is to accept that things change and not to take that personally.
If ken levine said do this and they spend weeks doing it and then he comes and say yeah you know what throw that away and you can't get over that this is not a field of work for you. Or maybe they should be independent developers. Or go work for call of duty or some company that makes the same game every year.

Jason seems to think making a game is like baking a cake. You just follow the recipe and everything works. It's nothing like that.

Thank God he doesn't cover the film industry this literally happens everyday and it happens even more now that you can do whatever you want with vfx

I learned that one. Don't be precious about your ideas or work you were PAID to make.

Typically for each customer I would have to think up ten product concepts and presentations for them. Out of that ten, 8 will be rejected, two will be shortlisted and maybe just maybe one will become a product that makes it to the shelves. Often R&D will start on a project only for it to be put "On hold", customers never openly say they have cancelled a project just leave it sitting in limbo.

You just accept that's how things work and you still earned money throughout the whole process.
 

element

Member
It was demoralizing to put weeks of your life into something only to watch it get flushed down the drain. “It is tough when stuff gets cut or changed dramatically that people have worked on for months,” said Dowling. “That was definitely a thing that happened a lot at Irrational.”

“You spend a lot of time and put your heart and soul into something just to have it disappear in the span of a meeting,” said Bill Gardner, who had helped lead the multiplayer team. “You never really get over that.”


Lol these people should leave the creative industry immediately. The first thing you learn is to accept that things change and not to take that personally.
If ken levine said do this and they spend weeks doing it and then he comes and say yeah you know what throw that away and you can't get over that this is not a field of work for you. Or maybe they should be independent developers. Or go work for call of duty or some company that makes the same game every year.

Jason seems to think making a game is like baking a cake. You just follow the recipe and everything works. It's nothing like that.

Thank God he doesn't cover the film industry this literally happens everyday and it happens even more now that you can do whatever you want with vfx
Going to have to disagree. I worked on games and things getting cut aren't anything new. But even when things get cut, you tend to find ways to repurpose the content into other areas.

What happened at Irrational is really abnormal in that months and if not years of work could be thrown away because one person woke up on the wrong side of the bed or watched a movie or played a game that changed their mind about something.

Normally when you hit a certain budget/staff in games it is somewhat assembly, because you spent a good mount of time prototyping, having green light meetings if this there is agreement that "this" is what we as a team are moving forward with.

It is one thing to kill a prototype that was worked with a handful of people for a couple weeks to a month. It is something totally different to be in production with thousands of man-hours spent already building and then all the sudden have a change of heart.

You bring up film. It would be like 60% done in principal filming on a tentpole movie that takes place in a desert and the director wakes up one day and says 'changed my mind. it would make better sense if this took place in a jungle.' That just doesn't happen when you have millions of already sunk cost.

But in Ken's mind he thought he have made Bioshock Infinite with just 50 people, but they ended up having a team of nearly 400 if you include outsourcers.
 
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element

Member
An article about troubled development in a game released 8 years ago? Really?
I don't understand why people are up in arms the fact it is eight years ago. People still write about the filming issues on Jaws. The complications on Apocalypse Now. The on again off again of The Man Who Killed Don Quixote by Terry Gilliam. Masters of Doom came out 11 years after the release of the game...
 
Lmao people really in here talking shit about how hes talking about something that happened in 2013.

Ya'll also walk past history books and scoff at how "it was so last century ago" too?

I mean wtf guys, some of us bitch and moan about Jason and his articles, but would tune in and watch a short web documentary about the same thing on GAMERS YouTube channel 🙄

Regardless, true or false, I enjoy his perspective every now and then. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I do love hearing about the behind the scenes of gaming every now and then.
 

Topfuel

Member
Lmao people really in here talking shit about how hes talking about something that happened in 2013.

Ya'll also walk past history books and scoff at how "it was so last century ago" too?

I mean wtf guys, some of us bitch and moan about Jason and his articles, but would tune in and watch a short web documentary about the same thing on GAMERS YouTube channel 🙄

Regardless, true or false, I enjoy his perspective every now and then. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I do love hearing about the behind the scenes of gaming every now and then.

There is a big diffrence in say a Noclip - Video Game Documentaries game doc and what Jason produces.
 
There is a big diffrence in say a Noclip - Video Game Documentaries game doc and what Jason produces.
Right. And yet, a number of those videos have cited Jason's articles in their videos.

Again, I'm not here to defend him. His piece on Days Gone was rebuked by devs themselves, but he has made articles that at the least, gave us an insight on the ongoings of game development.

I'd read the same about film productions woes, or even history books, with an open mind - knowing all of it is subject to perspective.

I dont see why we as gamers need to act like a bunch of zealots and "burn his books" so to speak because we disagree with him.
 

THEAP99

Banned
I am glad I went into Bioshock infinite pretty blind, not knowing anything about it other than beating the first game. i probably would've been disappointed had I seen this



This video showcases the results of this troubled development and probably partly why Jason's story is important
 

MaulerX

Member
Sorry just can't get into anything this guy says. It's all hit pieces meant to get the most clicks. His Q&A at the other place was basically a giant ad for his new book. Didn't know you were allowed to pull off stunts like that that quite obviously are meant to help nobody but yourself.
 

ambo

Neo Member
love how schrier (a guy that probably writes one article every other week and therefore barely works more than 2 hours) talks about crunch and how bad it is while he never even experienced hard work in his life

I’m pretty convinced he only goes in so hard on the crunch issue because it gives him access to disgruntled devs who give him insider scoop in exchange for airing out their grievances with their employers.
 

20cent

Banned
Crunch is part or many industries related to creation and production, whether it is advertising, games, product development, graphic design, trading, magazines even restaurants on daily basis. And I forget thousands of other occupations....

This crunchgate only surfaces with videogame companies because this industry and its followers (Kotaku and Era) are lazy and whiney manchildren who never had a job before.
 

MacReady13

Member
Honestly how or why does anyone give a fuck about this peanuts stories. He’s clearly going out to prove his point so will find people to side with his narrative. This guy is a moron.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Crunch is part or many industries related to creation and production, whether it is advertising, games, product development, graphic design, trading, magazines even restaurants on daily basis. And I forget thousands of other occupations....

This crunchgate only surfaces with videogame companies because this industry and its followers (Kotaku and Era) are lazy and whiney manchildren who never had a job before.
100% true.

The only industry that goes hardcore:

- Customers snooping employee's linkedin profiles where they are working and telling the world
- Customers analyzing employee's linkedin profiles trying to figure out gaming news
- Customers and media thinking crunch is only in gaming
- Employees living their lives on Twitter
- Employees bashing their own companies, bosses or competing games on Twitter or to Jason S

I've worked at big companies my whole life, which makes the sales, market cap and number of employees at even a giant game company like EA look like small potatoes. One company at its peak had like 100,000 employees globally.

And you never get such weird people (customers, employees and media) going around acting like losers on social media and game forums.

If Susie at my company gets fired for being an idiot, even Susie acts professional enough to move on. You don't see or hear about Susie tweeting or posting news feed messages on Linkedin the company sucks, the corporate culture stinks and the boss is an ass. And you don't have ambulance chasers like Jason S trying to dig dirt on company X trying to fill material to sell a book.

Yet in gaming, it's the wild west of stupidity. No wonder some bosses at work try to clamp down with policies like other companies. When you got people going on Twitter every day or leaking info to the public (another thing I have never seen at my companies where rogue employees some reason upload to the net all the material and stats of upcoming new brands), I can see why execs at game companies want to put the hammer down on idiots.

Every company that makes shit, we get free samples and prototypes a good year out from the public. It will even say Sample or Prototype or Not for Resale right on the product. It's a nice perk to have as we get to test new stuff. I have never seen anyone I know go on Facebook and say "Hey, just got a new prototype at work, check it out". No leaks, no uploads, nada. Not even anonymously done. No bosses have to go around lecturing people not to do that stuff.

Yet in gaming, some dude will spill beans on Reddit like a retard.

It's a real weird industry where you got so many reckless employees (and guys like Jason S following it for hits).
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
People get big mad at Jason for being one of the only gaming journalists that actually backdoors PR channels to do original research instead of just printing marketing fluff as fact.

I see a lot of hate towards his articles but reading some of them I cannot help but see how some people seem to really hate to look at how the sausage is made, some do crunch and do not see why if they can bear it or if it happens to them why shouldn’t it happen to others, and others do not like their favourite publishers being held accountable at all.

I do not think he deserves a Pulitzer or that he is a saint, but just fingers in the hear and screaming obscenities at his articles regardless of what they say seems odd. Also the “oh come on crunch is nothing” lack of empathy and refusal to see the toll it has on people seems odd too.
 

element

Member
Crunch is part or many industries related to creation and production, whether it is advertising, games, product development, graphic design, trading, magazines even restaurants on daily basis. And I forget thousands of other occupations....

This crunchgate only surfaces with videogame companies because this industry and its followers (Kotaku and Era) are lazy and whiney manchildren who never had a job before.
There is a HUGE difference between crunching to finish a milestone and crunching for a year or more to finish a game. That is just poor management.

Yes, crunch is part of many industries and especially in games. I've been part of many crunches. Some short and managed and some that were death marches. I actually enjoy short crunch because you are focused on solving a problem or hitting a goal and by the end the game makes a massive jump and that can be an incredibly powerful team building exercise. But the same can't be said during a death march. They are a mess, take huge toll on staff and their families. What is common in a death march is terrible scope control and uncertainty and lack of focus.

This has nothing to do with soft. I've done 120 hour weeks. I've had an GF move out because of a crunch. But doing that at 20 is way different than doing it at 40.

Say what you will about Jason, but it is really disappointing to see the lack of empathy as P Panajev2001a mentioned. If not for the staff putting in all the hours, then for their significant others or children who might not see their partner or parent at any frequency for an entire year.

And you never get such weird people (customers, employees and media) going around acting like losers on social media and game forums.
In entertainment it is all over the place. Music, Movies, Books. Gossip is an entire industry in itself. Hell the entire car industry is driven off of spy photos. To think that rumors, speculation and 'insiders' is only a gaming industry thing it pretty naive.
But yeah, I don't know many forums for accountants talking dirt about their latest clients. Maybe there is a secret Facebook group with insurance agents fighting about Progressive vs Allstate. We will never know, because honestly things like that no one cares about.
 
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Anyone thinking that Jason actually does due diligence when writing an article should go to Halo Infinite's thread where the person that was a source for Jason's article had to come out and clarify that shit wasn't exactly as Jason described.
Lol, how ironic.

Mind linking that article as proof? Even an archive is fine.
 

A.Romero

Member
Lol, how ironic.

Mind linking that article as proof? Even an archive is fine.

Apparently I read it wrong.

Eric Lin (former employee) came out and talked about how troubled the development was. Jason said it was true and he was getting an article ready. Later Eric published another video and said his statements were taken out of context.



An article about the clarification: https://gamerant.com/halo-infinite-former-dev-clarifies-recent-comments/

So Jason basically supported the original comments about crunch and promised and article and Eric Lin later clarified there is no mandatory crunch.
 

Retinoid

Member
Apparently I read it wrong.

Eric Lin (former employee) came out and talked about how troubled the development was. Jason said it was true and he was getting an article ready. Later Eric published another video and said his statements were taken out of context.



An article about the clarification: https://gamerant.com/halo-infinite-former-dev-clarifies-recent-comments/

So Jason basically supported the original comments about crunch and promised and article and Eric Lin later clarified there is no mandatory crunch.

Jason is such a god damn moron. He has absolutely no business sense and has this strange, idealized vision where multimillion dollar development projects go completely smoothly with everyone holding hands, dancing around the boardroom and the cleaners are making as much as the top executives. Yeah, big fucking surprise, video games are TOUGH to develop and there are crucial DEADLINES to hit - and crunch is to be expected if the deadlines are looming close, just like in every other industry. And that fucking frown smiley is triggering the hell out of me; you wouldn't see this childish response in any other industry on the planet. He's a bottom of the barrel journalist who specializes in fake outrage in one of the worst sectors for quality reporting in world.

Yes I'm angry for no reason at all.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Jason is such a god damn moron. He has absolutely no business sense and has this strange, idealized vision where multimillion dollar development projects go completely smoothly with everyone holding hands, dancing around the boardroom and the cleaners are making as much as the top executives. Yeah, big fucking surprise, video games are TOUGH to develop and there are crucial DEADLINES to hit - and crunch is to be expected if the deadlines are looming close, just like in every other industry. And that fucking frown smiley is triggering the hell out of me; you wouldn't see this childish response in any other industry on the planet. He's a bottom of the barrel journalist who specializes in fake outrage in one of the worst sectors for quality reporting in world.

Yes I'm angry for no reason at all.
Thanks god he doesn't ambulance chase corporate ERP systems.

My coworker said his old company tried to implement SAP a long time ago when he was there, was a disaster, and they went back to their old enterprise system. The system bombed so they couldnt even get shipments out the door even though the stock is right there.

People were all pissed sales couldn't process and they resorted to manually overriding orders like this is 1980. Retailers too.

If Jason S was on the case, he'd call out the company, all departments, SAP, and all the retailers involved saying it was a crisis mode where there were fuck ups. He'd make it a focus to find out which people messed up the most.

A total asshole.
 
Apparently I read it wrong.

Eric Lin (former employee) came out and talked about how troubled the development was. Jason said it was true and he was getting an article ready. Later Eric published another video and said his statements were taken out of context.



An article about the clarification: https://gamerant.com/halo-infinite-former-dev-clarifies-recent-comments/

So Jason basically supported the original comments about crunch and promised and article and Eric Lin later clarified there is no mandatory crunch.

Firstly, thanks for actually answering my rhetorical question.

I asked you to look into it because you're a victim of the framing in that thread; I don't think you're the only one who came away from that thread thinking Jason published an article about Eric.

Next, ask yourself where in that translation did the idea of troubled development and mandatory crunch come from? Is it stated outright or heavily implied?

I'd say it's not, however depending on the preconceptions you have going in, you will take away something different.
 

A.Romero

Member
Jason is such a god damn moron. He has absolutely no business sense and has this strange, idealized vision where multimillion dollar development projects go completely smoothly with everyone holding hands, dancing around the boardroom and the cleaners are making as much as the top executives. Yeah, big fucking surprise, video games are TOUGH to develop and there are crucial DEADLINES to hit - and crunch is to be expected if the deadlines are looming close, just like in every other industry. And that fucking frown smiley is triggering the hell out of me; you wouldn't see this childish response in any other industry on the planet. He's a bottom of the barrel journalist who specializes in fake outrage in one of the worst sectors for quality reporting in world.

Yes I'm angry for no reason at all.

I loled.

Firstly, thanks for actually answering my rhetorical question.

I asked you to look into it because you're a victim of the framing in that thread; I don't think you're the only one who came away from that thread thinking Jason published an article about Eric.

Next, ask yourself where in that translation did the idea of troubled development and mandatory crunch come from? Is it stated outright or heavily implied?

I'd say it's not, however depending on the preconceptions you have going in, you will take away something different.

It is a good point.

At least the resetera post does mention crunch literally and Jason jumps on that. A reply by himself confirms that there is an article being written about 343 but of course we don't know what's going to come out of said article. At least in that way the crunch feels implied by Jason.
 
I loled.



It is a good point.

At least the resetera post does mention crunch literally and Jason jumps on that. A reply by himself confirms that there is an article being written about 343 but of course we don't know what's going to come out of said article. At least in that way the crunch feels implied by Jason.
If by "post" you are referring to that translation, then the worst wording in there I could perceive was "(Crunch confirmed :(".

And yea, based on Jason's track record it's safe to assume that if he wrote an article about 343i it'd talk about the existence of "crunch".

However, none of this is "mandatory crunch". Maybe Jason will frame some of the anecdotes negatively and I'd say that's not good. But just based on his tweets and the translation there isn't anything that sticks out as blatantly wrong to me.

Anyway thanks for the discussion but I'll be moving on from this non-game discussion. When his 343i article does come out hopefully we can all read it with more critical thought and less kneejerking and maybe I'll discuss it with a comment or two again, cheers man.
 

Abriael_GN

RSI Employee of the Year
Firstly, thanks for actually answering my rhetorical question.

I asked you to look into it because you're a victim of the framing in that thread; I don't think you're the only one who came away from that thread thinking Jason published an article about Eric.

Next, ask yourself where in that translation did the idea of troubled development and mandatory crunch come from? Is it stated outright or heavily implied?

I'd say it's not, however depending on the preconceptions you have going in, you will take away something different.

No need for preconceptions. He obviously signal-boosted clear-cut misinformation and distortion of reality because it fit his favorite narrative. Any journalist with an ounce of dignity and professionalism would not signal boost a partial and out-of-context translation by a complete rando of the internet without any kind of verification.
 

Fuz

Banned
Here We Go Again GIF by memecandy
Came here to post this.
 

CamHostage

Member
You forgot to specify "dozens of inside sources." (actually much less than "dozens") that he has no responsibility whatsoever to back up because he only writes with outlets that require no accountability in exchange for clicks...

Anonymous sources, such as the quoted Forrest Dowling (Lead Level Designer), Mike Snight (Senior Level Builder), Bill Gardner (Lead Developer for cut Multiplayer component), Chad LaClair (Level Builder), Don Roy (Senior Associate Producer)...

 
I love that he cherry picked one of the worst managed studios in the industry.

What the fuck are you talking about?!
He writes books about game development, the only difference between what his books do and post mortem is that the stories he tells aren't the ones the developers don't want to talk about (and people wish to know).

Jason cherry picks obvious studios with known issues throughout the industry, and honestly nothing special about these.
Love to see him try to spin other studios who are very efficient for having too much crunch.

And when he does that people accuses him (and others) of hit jobs.
 
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Abriael_GN

RSI Employee of the Year
Anonymous sources, such as the quoted Forrest Dowling (Lead Level Designer), Mike Snight (Senior Level Builder), Bill Gardner (Lead Developer for cut Multiplayer component), Chad LaClair (Level Builder), Don Roy (Senior Associate Producer)...


It's almost like one case from a book about events from a decade ago makes the rule. Pretty literally every rumormongering article written by Schreier is based exclusively on anonymous sources. The post you quote explicitly responds to "his stuff is always backed by blah blah blah."

You'll have to try harder.
 
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Papacheeks

Banned
What the fuck are you talking about?!
He writes books about game development, the only difference between what his books do and post mortem is that the stories he tells aren't the ones the developers don't want to talk about.

Everyone knows within the gaming developer and player community the issues Irrational, Rockstar, Ubisoft all had with Leadership and Project management. It was no secret. But Jason needs to shine a light on it since a lot of disgruntled people left that place, and a lot of the crunch and issues stemmed from management not knowing wtf they were doing.

And having terrible project scheduling/management. Which is why Rod was brought it. I'm not a Journalist but I followed Irrational and went to Pax East 3-4 years in a row. In 2011/2012 they were showing off cosplay and character screens in a panel. But no gameplay of Infinite. Most of the stuff was about Bioshock 1.

It was weird, and showed how much trouble they were in. I remember that panel and have video of it, people were like wtf? It was cool because we got to interact and ask Ken questions, but he couldn't answer any of them pertaining to Infinite.

What the fuck are you talking about?!
He writes books about game development, the only difference between what his books do and post mortem is that the stories he tells aren't the ones the developers don't want to talk about (and people wish to know).



And when he does that people accuses him (and others) of hit jobs.

Find me those in his books. There's a reason people like Cory and JAFFE have issues with how he frames the industry. And its because he's never worked for a studio or worked on software development. But he thinks he knows wtf he's talking about.

He just chooses obvious talking points from burnt out indie developers, AAA contract workers, or leads that were let go after allegations of bad practices.
 
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No need for preconceptions. He obviously signal-boosted clear-cut misinformation and distortion of reality because it fit his favorite narrative. Any journalist with an ounce of dignity and professionalism would not signal boost a partial and out-of-context translation by a complete rando of the internet without any kind of verification.
I don't wanna dwell on this topic but let me elaborate on what I meant: "preconceptions going in" was referring to the translation, not Jason.

Depending on what bias you carry, you can find a modest condemnation/endorsement/observation about working overtime in that translation.
 
Bought it, read the Bioshock Infinite chapter.

Nothing too Earth shattering but interesting nevertheless, one thing I was interested to learn is Bioshock Infinite started development in 2009, I was always curious if it was 2008 or 2009.

But what happened to Irrational to make a long story short is Ken Levine didn't enjoy Infinite's development, he then wanted to leave Irrational to start a smaller team, under the assumption Irrational would go on without him, instead 2K felt without Ken Levine there was no point to Irrational and closed the studio.

I have very mixed thoughts on this, it kinds of makes me like Ken Levine a lot less, I don't understand why he would walk away from Bioshock like that, as a huge fan of that series it simply pains me to think he just didn't want to do it anymore and we'll probably never get another Bioshock game with Ken Levine again.

On the flip side to that I can understand Ken feeling like the requirements of AAA development are too stifling for creativity given how watered down Infinite was and I have to agree with 2K that without Ken Levine there really isn't a point to Irrational, but Ken still made a choice that cost a lot of people their jobs even though they made a successful game, which hardly seems fair and now 7 years later Ken has diddly squat to show for it, we have no idea what his new game is or if it will even come out at this rate, which makes him seem like a knob.

Overall since the original Bioshock is one of my favorite games it just overall depresses me greatly things didn't go better from there, maybe we'll get lucky and both Ken Levine's new game and the new Bioshock will both be amazing though.

I'm debating whether I want to read the rest of the book though, can anyone give me a list of games it covers?
 

48086

Member
"Guys, the developers had to work hard and stuff. Like, 30 minute lunches when they should get two hour lunches and stuff you know. Really, it's time to destroy the white man mangers and executives of the game industry. They're just really really mean and stuff."
- Jason Schreier probably
 

The Alien

Banned
That’s just your opinion. I personally feel Bio 3 is better than 2. 1 is better than 3. Bio 2 feels like a rehash, and a slog to play through.
Of course its just an opinion.
That's what we do here.

I love Bioshock 2...it refined the graphics & gameplay compared to 1; of course 1 had the better story.

At the end of the day, B2 is more of the same but may have had a different perception today if it was an B1 expansion as opposed to a full on sequel.
 

kuncol02

Banned
My coworker said his old company tried to implement SAP a long time ago when he was there, was a disaster, and they went back to their old enterprise system. The system bombed so they couldnt even get shipments out the door even though the stock is right there.
I think I heard that story. Multiple times.
Once one of our clients called in 5PM that they can't download data in new shop that was supposed to launch on Monday. I was working way past midnight and had to come in Saturday to finish fixing their system.
Problem with crunch in gamedev is not that it happens at all but that many times it spans for year of even more of working more than 80h a week. It's not sustainable in long term hinders progress in game development (because experienced people burn out and retire or change industry they work).
 
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