Phunkydiabetic
Banned
Wait, are you suggesting Ken Levine hasn't worked on good games in his career?
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Jason Schreier: A look inside BioShock Infinite’s troubled development
Wait, are you suggesting Ken Levine hasn't worked on good games in his career?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Lol, little gossiping bastards, who even cares? Either it comes out and it's good and we care to play it, or not and nobody thinks of it again, what's with all the drama? Oh no, let's just call out this one guy as the problem of the whole studio's output, he's not abusing or forcing anybody but we are gonna say he's almost as bad as that cos we don't like him as a boss so please let's all just cancel him already and then when the studio shuts down because we all didn't make a vidya gaem we can all get jobs cos it wasn't really our fault, just the fault of our boss who should save the project no matter what or be a failure, but not take credit when something's awesome because it's obviously a team effort and it sucks when only a few names take credit for the work of hundreds, but not when taking the blame. Also, it's on the internet, by Screier at that, so it must be true & then some 
Seems like the guy got his own studios to do shit his way, win or lose. If people don't want to follow somebody's way and do shit their way maybe they shouldn't look to get hired by people who have a way and go indie on their own and see how they like that, what they achieve, if they never fail etc.
Seems like the guy got his own studios to do shit his way, win or lose. If people don't want to follow somebody's way and do shit their way maybe they shouldn't look to get hired by people who have a way and go indie on their own and see how they like that, what they achieve, if they never fail etc.
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Oddvintagechap
Member
Fumito also took a decade to release a indie game.
This article isnt a big deal.
Basically the homie is fucking up alot of people’s resumes is all.
Kev Kev
Member
i know the feel breh
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element
Member
Ken skill is writing. He can't code. He can't model. He doesn't work in a level editor. So he can't do anything by himself.
The whole plan for Ghost Story Games was to have that 'indie' mindset with the comfort of being totally funded by Take2. Prototype with a small team. Keep costs low. Keep communication streamlined (easier for a team of 20 to all be on the same page over a team of 250).
A new Bioshock is being made by Cloud Chamber, which actually has more former Bioshock alums than work at Ghost Story Games with Ken.
Actually he does get it. There is a big difference between the focus and leadership on games like TLOU2 and RDR2 and the desire to want to put the extra effort into reaching greatness because that vision is shared and accepted by the entire team versus the constant restarting, indecisiveness, lack of communication and personal attacks saying you are a talentless hack when you can't read one's mind.
Your attempt to use Michelangelo is funny, because Michelangelo knew his weakness and delegated tasks to those skilled to execute the vision. Even having Francesco Granacci work on parts of the Sistine Chapel.
Great work takes more than breaking eggs and likely crunch, but also takes great leadership to actually reach those and keep the vision focused as games are too complex for any one person to do everything. Meaning you have to be a visionary and a cheerleader.
I think it was clear from the reporting that most have left the studio. So are those that left because they lost faith in Ken's leadership snowflakes?
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Inviusx
Member
It sounds like development hell but he's been afforded this opportunity because of what he and his team have created for Take Two in the past. It's also funny that the anecdotes end in 2017 without any explanation as to what's been happening since then, it has been 4 years after all. Perhaps they've settled on their concept and have been nose down since then?
I think regardless of what former employees have said, Ken is a visionary and sometimes people like that are just dicks to work with, the end result however is usually worth it, especially if it sparks a new franchise like Bioshock. Take Two obviously see some light at the end of the tunnel for them to let Ken work without boundaries for 7 years. Let the man work and we will judge the final product once it's in out hands.
Also, Ken and his team made SWAT 4 which is the GOAT tactical shooter.
I think regardless of what former employees have said, Ken is a visionary and sometimes people like that are just dicks to work with, the end result however is usually worth it, especially if it sparks a new franchise like Bioshock. Take Two obviously see some light at the end of the tunnel for them to let Ken work without boundaries for 7 years. Let the man work and we will judge the final product once it's in out hands.
Also, Ken and his team made SWAT 4 which is the GOAT tactical shooter.
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element
Member
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Alternative headline: Ken Levine earned so much respect and status among his financiers that they're comfortable with him doing R+D on the cheap for an extended time. Also, Jason Shreier found 1 person who likes to complain and we don't want our readers to think about how many people complain about their jobs/bosses in every field.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
SkylineRKR
Member
You can find an unhappy employee or 2 in about every branche or company, and write a story out of it. Things never go entirely like clockwork. And especially not in this multi million dollar business. ND needs to deliver the absolute best, they're the premier Sony studio and have to sell systems and are required to meet critical acclaim. If you think you can accomplish those goals by being nice guys then wake up. If you can't keep up, search elsewhere.
Irrationals Bioshock Infinite is one of the many AAA games that had a rough development cycle. Its almost news at eleven.
Its kind of moronic that the likes of Schreier and his followers demand top quality games, a timely release schedule, loads of content and whatnot but at the same time are crying about crunch and toxic working environments.
Irrationals Bioshock Infinite is one of the many AAA games that had a rough development cycle. Its almost news at eleven.
Its kind of moronic that the likes of Schreier and his followers demand top quality games, a timely release schedule, loads of content and whatnot but at the same time are crying about crunch and toxic working environments.
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Shut0wen
Member
2k closed them down because infinte wasnt profitable and costed alot to make, ken made a new studio with some former staff and did a deal with 2k so they can produce there game without interfering, ken has his issue like being a perfectionist because bioshock was a great game but he never sacked anyone, not saying hes perfect but what you stated isnt true
plushyp
Member
Do you have any source for this?
Shut0wen
Member
Apparently one of the guys wwho critized ken left in 2017, but still has to be true because kens idea for whatever game hes making has changed so much, was originally meant to be some syfy fps with rpg elements then changed his ideas to something similar to shadow of mordor, from reading everything people have said about him his biggest issue is that he wont ever let anyone fix anything he has issues with instead he just scraps it and starts again, bioshock has totally ruined his mindset, bring back rod fergison to sort him out
plushyp
Member
Why is it that these clowns are allowed to work on game narratives. Her level of thinking doesn't bode well for her writing in upcoming games.
Wrath of the Toomics
Member
Jason writes selectively on abuse depending on the company, but hey, Ken's a click-worthy target for Schreier Ire and gotta get dem clicks.
Marvel
could never
Wildebeest
Member
Yes!
Him and his ilk think great things just arbitrarily appear, as far as I can tell. You're right, it takes hard work. Parasitic commies like him are clueless.
CGiRanger
Banned
It's the grift of Tabloid Journalism. Used to be the laughingstock you'd find on supermarket shelves. Those standards are now exactly what so-called "reputable" news agencies now thrive on. Bloomberg can't call itself reputable when they hire someone like Schrier whose only goal is to endlessly selectively complain no matter what. Because as you said, either it's "Endless Abusive Crunch!" or "This game is taking forever!". With of course the targets of these articles being awfully selective.
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Goddamn fuckin A 100% TRUTH!Lol, little gossiping bastards, who even cares? Either it comes out and it's good and we care to play it, or not and nobody thinks of it again, what's with all the drama? Oh no, let's just call out this one guy as the problem of the whole studio's output, he's not abusing or forcing anybody but we are gonna say he's almost as bad as that cos we don't like him as a boss so please let's all just cancel him already and then when the studio shuts down because we all didn't make a vidya gaem we can all get jobs cos it wasn't really our fault, just the fault of our boss who should save the project no matter what or be a failure, but not take credit when something's awesome because it's obviously a team effort and it sucks when only a few names take credit for the work of hundreds, but not when taking the blame. Also, it's on the internet, by Screier at that, so it must be true & then some
Seems like the guy got his own studios to do shit his way, win or lose. If people don't want to follow somebody's way and do shit their way maybe they shouldn't look to get hired by people who have a way and go indie on their own and see how they like that, what they achieve, if they never fail etc.
Difficult to work for! Oh no! Call the police!!! LOL.
plushyp
Member
Okay can you post a link as well.
JackMcGunns
Member
Is it me, or is this guy like a Vampire feeding off this kind of stuff.
Wildebeest
Member
Alright big nose.
Society of Rapture (Fan Musings)
Asked this on the Bioshock Nation forums, but they're kind of dead so I'll post here as well. Okay, another thing I am curious about is the underwater city of Rapture itself. While we know it is underwater, sprouting as many holes as the Titanic, and the brainchild of some capitalist dude by...
www.ttlg.com
plushyp
Member
Lol, it's normal to ask for a link. You can't just make a statement like that and then think it's okay to just say "yes" without providing a link.
Wildebeest
Member
I'm making it clear that I feel you are wasting my time on something that isn't important.
plushyp
Member
You've got to be kidding me. You make a random post without providing a link and make me ask for a source instead of providing one in the first place. You're the one who wasted my time.
Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
Yes. You can. Have you ever written a resume in your life?
No, he doesn't. All the named sources say extremely vague, non-substantial things. They're filler. Anything even remotely substantial is backed exclusively by the usual anonymous sources. Pretty common bad press trick. Mix a majority of anonymous sources with a small handful of names saying basically nothing to artificially give the point credence when it doesn't have any.
Hit piece against Soret in 3... 2... 1...
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WitchHunter
Banned
tldr:
- creative person without leadership skills leads a team
- so they realized they needed someone to make things fit together, a project leader
and they did, and the project was finished.
wooooooooooooooooooooooooow
200 man team needs a project leader, who would've thought
: DDD
- creative person without leadership skills leads a team
- so they realized they needed someone to make things fit together, a project leader
and they did, and the project was finished.
wooooooooooooooooooooooooow
200 man team needs a project leader, who would've thought
: DDD
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
He sort of has "gone indie" in the sense that his team is like less than 20 people.
I've always heard Ken Levine is like a writer's writer, constantly re-writing shit or handing it in super late, which can be a pain to work with in a collaborative medium.
Of course Tim Schafer is like that too, but still manages to get games done.
I think the problem with Ken is that he can't be both a writer and a producer at the same time. He either needs to "step down" into the writer role, or leave it behind and be a team leader.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Talking about the troubled development of a good game isn't tearing someone down, though... Every hero's journey involves conflict and struggle, right? I don't see why people are so upset that he wants to tell the honest story of what happened.
Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
More are commenting on similar points. Looks like more and more developers are finally vocally identifying Schreier as who he is, and it was about time.
because "Honest stories" aren't nearly as one-sided as this particular writer regularly paints them. There's a massive difference between portraying an "honest story" and intentionally distorting a story to pursue a clear agenda and attack developers one doesn't like.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Sorry, but the very fact that he even attempts to "do a journalism" and interview devs behind the scenes makes his takes more complete and honest than most of the rest of the games journalism industry, which is little more than a human centipede with its lips affixed to the anus of game publisher PR.
If you don't like someone's original research, then do better. The fact is no one is doing that, they're just complaining that he is talking about things that certain people would prefer to keep private.
Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
What a take.
Anyone with any knowledge of any sort of reporting knows that in a work environment there will always be dissatisfied people, and the percentage of those will be much higher among those who left or were fired. Articles that present a 100% consensus in one direction like those this writer regularly feeds naive people like you are a statistical impossibility unless one cherry-picks sources to fit a predetermined narrative. It's not "original research." it's a forgery.
This kind of hit piece isn't "doing journalism." It's presenting an obviously skewed and intentionally misleading angle for profit.
Others aren't doing that because this is professionally and morally unsound, and not everyone is (thankfully) ok with misleading readers by presenting anonymous accounts to their readers as they were gospel without a shred of accountability. It's not surprising that this kind of "reports" are concentrated within certain trashy media outlets like Bloomberg because others have a bit of self-respect and won't accept articles based on dishonest foundations just to grab some clicks.
Anyone who has done this job for any sizable amount of time has developers telling them stuff. Not everyone will be so stupid or dishonest to think that personal accounts from people with a negative standpoint (having been fired or quit) who aren't even willing to put their name on what they say represent an accurate reality of a sizable company and should be fed to the public, potentially ruining livelihoods and reputations based on what's literally gossip.
It's always hilarious that someone would try to defend this trash.
Trying to defend a despicable vulture with "why don't you try to be a vulture yourself?" is ludicrous and disingenuous.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
But again, when the alternative in this case is doing absolutely no research at all, and believing whatever is said on press tours intended to market the game, any actual investigative effort is better pretty much by default.
Now, I disagree that Schreier's takes are "hit pieces" or strictly negative, especially if you actually read his book. I think that the negative stuff tends to grab headlines, because that is the stuff that most upsets the phony portrayal of how games get made which is, again, largely self-mythologizing designed to sell games.
But that doesn't mean it's "definitive truth," either, but the reality is, it's all we have unless someone else wants to put the same level of work in.
You can't possibly believe this. Obviously when Ken Levine does a press tour to sell copies of his game, he isn't going to talk about all of this shit, now is he? Journalists accepting everything that is told to them on a press tour as gospel, without even an effort to corroborate what is told to them, are not doing "good journalism."
I say this as someone who worked in the industry for years. And I don't just blame the individual journalists, the realities of low pay and deadline pressure mean that most people really can't put in the time and effort needed to deep research game development unless they have other income or they're doing it for a book or something. And most game journalists aren't actually trained journalists and don't know how either. It almost never happens as a result. So I do appreciate guys like Schreier who are writing books and trying to fill in gaps that we don't often see.
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Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
I can't care the less about what he writes in his books. Books work in a different market and sell on different parameters. His production as a "journalist" (quotation marks obligatory) is literally a continuous series of hit pieces presenting a false consensus that *never* exists in any company with more than 10 employees without *any* sort of contradicting view that *always* exists in every group of heterogeneous people.
He has literally made this a business model, and i's a very dishonest one.
Unless one has never talked to developers in their life, it's pretty easy to know, while doing this job, that these kinds of negative standpoints exist for every company, and they're usually extremely misleading. You don't pursue a story that you know isn't genuine.
Do you know what "good journalism" is like in terms of gaming?
Busting one's ass every day to find and present games that you readers likely don't know about and bringing to light developers that the rest of the press (including this hack we're talking about) ignores. That's what actual "research" is like applied to this field. This particular writer hasn't done that in years, because presenting gossip without accountability is more profitable and much, much easier.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
So why, then, is the glossy happy version told on press tours good, but Schreier's bad? Could they not both be seen as halves of a whole at worst?
This is my problem with your argument, you're ONLY mad at the negative story for being unbalanced, and completely ignoring the fact that almost all the other reporting in the industry is a one-sideded sanitization of reality. You won't hold anyone else to the same standard, which tells me that your problem is not so much with balance or objectivity as it is "hearing things you don't like."
Then so is literally everyone else's. At least his brings some balance to the conversation.
So now even talking about how games are made is "not what good journalism is about."I won't deny the last part -- what you see on game sites is dictated by what people want to read. There's no NPR for games journalism, profit motives are a always gonna be there, to some extent.
And to that end, the "under the radar game" articles do NOT get traction. If you think that is all journalism is, then you better support those people on patreon because it won't get supported on clicks. I have done that beat for one of the bigs, and it doesn't get 100th of the engagement as "behind the scenes" or "game history" articles.
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Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
So why, then, is the glossy happy version told on press tours good, but Schreier's bad? Could they not both be seen as halves of a whole at worst?
This is my problem with your argument, you're ONLY mad at the negative story for being unbalanced, and completely ignoring the fact that almost all the other reporting in the industry is a one-sideded sanitization of reality.
Then so is literally everyone else's. At least his brings some balance to the conversation.
You seem to ignore the fact that developers do talk on their own, and I mean actual people who put their name on what they say, taking responsibility for it. Not only singular accounts but also very extensive and comprehensive post-mortem reports and talks that are often far from glossy and certainly don't skimp in portraying challenges and issues.
The only ones who can tell how games are made are developers, and they do a great job on their own without press hacks editorializing and cherry-picking the sources and points of view that fit the narrative they personally want to pursue. And anyone who can read and is able of critical thinking should easily see that this particular writer isn't conveying the developers' stories. He's conveying the story *he* wants to tell and using developers to pursue his personal interests.
First of all, not everyone thinks only about profit, and thankfully not every outlet will prevent stories that aren't profitable at a cursory glance.
But more importantly, what you say is simply false. Covering unknown and small games and giving a voice to smaller developers can certainly be profitable and effective, even more so due to the lack of competition. It may be a smaller pie, but you get a much bigger slice of it.
If engagement is all you think about, then you're not a good journalist. You're just a cog in a clickbaiting machine. If engagement is all your editor thinks about, then they're not a good editor. That's all there's to it.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
You make it sound like all the sources in this Bioshock piece are anonymous, which makes me wonder if you read it... The fact is, it's often incredibly hard to get people to tell you what they really think on record, especially when they still work at the company in question. It gets a lot easier when you're talking about stuff years on (one of the main reasons I focused so much on retrogaming in my own career), but even then it can be hard (especially with Japanese devs, who are just insanely tight lipped about fucking everything).
It's pretty naive to think that the truth will come out on its own like that. Sometimes it does take a journalist reaching out to people, talking to multiple people, asking about others accounts... The truly great works of behind the scenes games writing always involve some sort of journalistic effort.
Not everyone thinks in terms of maximizing profit all the time, no, but everyone needs to put food on the table and a roof over their head. The fact is you aren't going to do that by highlighting indie darlings unless you're subsidizing that effort with other more popular content too.
Once upon a time, we did have "destination" journalism -- magazines and websites that people would go to directly. Back then you just needed good content that people liked, and you could take chances on content because people would come to your publication specifically to see what you were talking about. Those were the good old days. I miss them too. But you need to understand that shit is dead. No one reads magazines. No one goes to the IGN (or whatever) home page anymore. EVERYTHING is algorithms and aggregators and social media now. That's the only way anyone finds content anymore. Period.
You think journalists really get to make these decisions themselves?
If you work for a publisher, you take assignment.
If you're freelance you can write what you want, but you still need to sell it to someone, and the fact is articles about little indie games don't sell.
You could be wholly self employed like a youtuber, but those motherfuckers are the biggest slaves to trend chasing of all of them. They live and die on maximizing search, unless they're in the very small group of people who can sustain on patreon, which is why I said I hope you are supporting those people on Patreon.
I think you have a really naive understanding of how the world works. I understand being frustrated that the business can be cynical -- BELIEVE ME, that's part of why I left -- but it's another thing entirely to be in denial about basic economic realities.
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Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
Japanese devs are tight-lipped only with those they don't trust. And in terms of western journalists, they have many very valid reasons not to trust them. They're actually very vocal when you've earned their trust.
Anyone named within that article says mild things that really don't do anything to prove the main point, which is exclusively supported by anonymous sources. Can't get people to take responsibility for what they say? Too bad. Then the story has no substance and isn't worth risking to mislead your readers and impact people's reputations without evidence. Assuming that someone hiding behind anonymity is telling you the truth is a fool's errand, and only someone who *wants* that to be the truth for personal interest would do so.
There is a reason why developers are starting more and more to publicly push back against this specific writer and this kind of trash story. And it's because they know first-hand how dishonest and misleading it is.
It's absolutely hilarious that you think that reporting gossip (yes. This is gossip. No more. No less) takes "effort." It's the easiest part of the job, assuming that you're willing to skip the due diligence of finding people who will take responsibility for what they say or will present actual evidence in support of it.
What takes effort is finding actual, factual news that you can actually support on a daily basis, especially off the beaten path of the usual AAA crap everyone writes about and press releases that crowd your mail. Someone like this writer, who drops a story a week at most, many of which based on gossip and the rest on cheap controversy, has nothing to teach about journalism to those who do the hard work every single day, whether it's a Monday or Christmas.
If covering smaller stories regularly doesn't allow you to put food on the table, you either don't care enough, aren't doing a good job, or (most prominently) are working for the wrong outlet.
Incidentally, I've done this job on print and web for over 20 years. I *never* had issues putting food on the table (and supporting my family) while covering regularly plenty of games that you've likely never even heard about, even more so on the Japanese side. I've simply earned the support of my editors and outlet owners by proving time and time again that it works. When I found editors and owners who weren't amenable to providing that support, I simply looked elsewhere. I'm fairly positive I have a lot more experience than you do, since by your own admission you left and I've stuck with it for literally my whole adult life.
"it doesn't sell" is an excuse.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Hard disagree. If you have a bunch of people speaking on background separately, but all corroborating each other, they're probably giving you good information. It's important to be skeptical of individuals who might have a personal vendetta, but if all of your sources are telling you the same thing, there's no reason you should toss it just because they don't want the attribution.
Or, and I want you to sit down and consider this for a moment, it could be because... people don't like reading bad things about themselves.
Your selective skepticism is really hard to reconcile. Everyone who says something bad has an ax to grind, but everyone who denies doing anything wrong must be telling the truth. That doesn't feel like responsible journalism to me.
How they teach you to do this in the real journalism world is to print both the accusation and the denial. Get both sides of the story. It doesn't seem like you get that, you only want the happy story.
How many dedicated gaming outlets out there in 2021 actually pay their writers a decent middle class salary to write about games full time? You can probably count them on your fingers at this point. They're kind of all the wrong outlet. If you're okay making $40K a year or whatever maybe there are some more opportunities for local papers or special interest magazines or whatever but there's not exactly a ton of great opportunities anymore.
If that's true, then you must realize how abnormal that is. If you started 20 years ago, that would mean we came up around the same time. I wrote for one of the biggest gaming publications in the world and almost NOBODY that I worked with is still working as a gaming journalist today. They're all working in publishing or PR or development, or just some corpo writing gig outside of gaming entirely. Hardly anyone stays in gaming journalism.
I had that for a time too, but the whole industry shook up in the early 2010s. Editors changed, trends changed, the way people consume media just changed.
If you're still hanging on in legacy media or whatever fine maybe, but the fact is the VAST majority of web media is fed to people by one algorithm or another, not by people navigating directly to their favorite tastemakers.
Same here. But "looking elsewhere" meant "taking a tech industry job making more than twice as much."
At the end of the day, it's a job either way. I didn't like where the job was going so I got a better job, fuck it.
I still freelance here and there when the mood hits me, mind you, and I might write a book at some point, but I'll never depend on it for my income again, it's not worth it.
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BacklashWave534
Member
Schreier is the kind of guy that sits in his cubicle jarring his own farts and selling them to his brainless followers.
BacklashWave534
Member
You really think Jason does his own investigations. He probably has his girlfriend's boyfriend do most of the work.
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