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Jason Schreier of Kotaku defends Bethesda for using the same engine
Nymphae
Banned
Yes, correctly stating that two games share famously criticized fundamental architecture is the same thing as saying two different meals are exactly the same. This guy is such a fucking idiot.
He even says in the paragraph right above his analogy:
How hard is it to understand this? Why the semantics about what a fucking engine ACKSHULLY is?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
You'd defend Bethesda too, if you had on the line:
- Bethesda early previews
- Gold review discs
- Ad revenue
- All kinds of free promotional gear websites get (my buddy had a small gaming site and even he got free games and trinkets from game companies. All he did was email them and they mailed him boxes of stuff for free)
- Bethesda early previews
- Gold review discs
- Ad revenue
- All kinds of free promotional gear websites get (my buddy had a small gaming site and even he got free games and trinkets from game companies. All he did was email them and they mailed him boxes of stuff for free)
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Bethesda finally hit the triple crown.
ES = old fantasy games
Fallout = basically modern day (close enough)
Starfield = futuristic stuff
One game engine. 3 time lines. The Triple Crown.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Didn't Bethesda blacklist Kotaku a few years ago because they kept leaking Bethesda's upcoming games? I guess that means Jason is trying to get under Bethesda's pants for the special exclusive coverage and benefits...
Dargor
Member
This is embarrassing. They should change their name to "Big Corps. Defence Force", they would actually get more respect than trying to pass as "journalists". And why its always Jason Schreier signing these things?
edit: just to clarify, I'm talking about all "game journalists" not just Kotaku.
edit: just to clarify, I'm talking about all "game journalists" not just Kotaku.
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Endless Fluff
Banned
The difference is that God of War 1 and 2 were only a few years old when God of War 3 came out.. 5 years to be exact... that is 2005-2010, that was still a fairly new engine.
The Creation Engine however is pretty much a molested bastard child of Gamebryo/NetImmerse... an engine so old, that it came out before the PS2 launched. The first NetImmerse game was Prince of Persia for the Dreamcast in 1999.
They're rewriting parts of that old code over and over again ever since Oblivion and sure, Creation Engine can't be compared to Gamebryo anymore, but there is still shit in there that is severely outdated and hence unoptimized for todays software renderers. You will never see masses of NPCs in a Creation Engine game, because the engine can't handle it and never will... it would melt CPUs. Physics calculations will always be tied to framerate and there is way more decades old luggage that engine carriers over to each new game.
Engines can evolve and some engines can be used for a very long time, yes, but at some point you should make a new engine... especially when parts of your code goes back some 20 years.
Bigmanatee
Member
Schreier is one of the only game journalists around and it's funny how much shit everybody gives him here. I get the history of neo and him but he does do real investigative shit which is more that most video game personalities do at their sites.
Bethesda's models looks like shit, especially their facial animations. I dig the art direction they are going for but it's getting played out especially when things like the Witcher 3, uncharted 4, rdr2, etc come out and put it to shame. That doesn't even mention the modders who put in all that unpaid work and do a great job. It's buggy as hell and I'm not interested in fo 76.
Bethesda's models looks like shit, especially their facial animations. I dig the art direction they are going for but it's getting played out especially when things like the Witcher 3, uncharted 4, rdr2, etc come out and put it to shame. That doesn't even mention the modders who put in all that unpaid work and do a great job. It's buggy as hell and I'm not interested in fo 76.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Okay, that's great that he does investigation, but this opinion piece isn't an investigation.
Weird to see people coming out of the woodwork to stand up for a known shill and self-promoter.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And that is why Bethesda has no drive to do it themselves.
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I'm so tired of people who themselves clearly have no idea what they are talking about, telling me I'm misguided. Yes a game engine is many parts, but the one we are speaking of has 16 year old code/tech as it's fundamental building blocks. It's obvious to anyone who has been playing their games for years, that the engine has been struggling to evolve and modernize for years now and it's only getting worse.
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
lmao this guy is such a tool.
Strife In a Teacup
Member
I think it's worth mentioning engines can be improved, obviously. But there comes a time to move on. The Aurora engine which powered Neverwinter Nights to the Witcher 1 is a great example. But both Bioware and CD Projekt Red moved on to Frostbite and REDEngine respectively. I loved the Aurora engine, but it had its limitations in terms of modding.
LukeSkywater
Banned
#BelieveAllEngines
SlashBringingHasher
Banned
schrier is a marketing guy, you notice he sometimes says he knows stuff but he can't talks. why can't he? hes a journalist. if you know inside shit you say it and make articles about it
hes an advertiser. thats why he provides the best "leaks" they aren't leaks. they are just smart advertisements. fucking ass kisser. bottom feeder
hes an advertiser. thats why he provides the best "leaks" they aren't leaks. they are just smart advertisements. fucking ass kisser. bottom feeder
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ipukespiders
Member
Gross.
manfestival
Member
Jason Schreier really loved going against the game. The dude is essentially a paid troll. I am not gonna lie, I am a little jealous.
Woo-Fu
Banned
First you guys browbeat innocent blizzard employees who are developing what the spreadsheet told them to develop and now you're jumping on the back of Bethesda's wage slaves who have no say in their choice of tools.
No wonder Jason has to stand up for the innocent who can't stand up for themselves. I might have to start a gofundme just to get him a bald eagle tattoo on his chest and angel wings on the back.
No wonder Jason has to stand up for the innocent who can't stand up for themselves. I might have to start a gofundme just to get him a bald eagle tattoo on his chest and angel wings on the back.
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ancelotti
Member
It's a stupid semantics argument from Jason that causes more confusion than clarity. An engine isn't a misnomer, because a real engine isn't a singular piece of tech either, it's also a platform for many components (spark plug, valves, pistons, etc.) that is typically iterative between generations.
This is the same stupid straw man argument people come up with when they defend games with bad netcode. I get that gaming network architecture consists of a vast array of technologies, but at the end of the day is the game laggy or not? It's not up to me to figure out if your servers are underpowered, latency compensation is poor, or there is some other underlying issue.
Bethesda games have had some of the same logic problems for years because they've been using some of the same solutions. If they can iterate their way out of it then great, if not then maybe it's time for some cleanroom engineering. Naturally, there's a cost/benefit to doing this, and I imagine as long as sales are strong they'll put it off as long as possible.
This is the same stupid straw man argument people come up with when they defend games with bad netcode. I get that gaming network architecture consists of a vast array of technologies, but at the end of the day is the game laggy or not? It's not up to me to figure out if your servers are underpowered, latency compensation is poor, or there is some other underlying issue.
Bethesda games have had some of the same logic problems for years because they've been using some of the same solutions. If they can iterate their way out of it then great, if not then maybe it's time for some cleanroom engineering. Naturally, there's a cost/benefit to doing this, and I imagine as long as sales are strong they'll put it off as long as possible.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I hope FO76 blowback is enough to give them a wake up call, or at the very least, get them to legitimately explore a new engine. I don't often root for games to bomb, but this is one of those times.
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Lionel Richie
Member
These dudes are so absolutely disconnected from their audience that I honestly think they're doing these constant tiny stupid things in purpose for some end goal that they don't even understand well. Maybe getting laid.
anthraticus
Banned
It'll be in the 2020s and the melee combat will still feel like your swinging a bunch of weightless plastic dildos around. Watch.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Explain in detail why he's wrong and you're not just shitposting. There's been plenty of posters in this thread that are trying to explain why he's correct, but you did a one off. Explain to me why I shouldn't dismiss you as a glue eating inbred mouth breather that types furiously with two fingers.
hE sOmEtImeS TaKeS ThE SiDe oF SjW's is not an excuse. As if it ever were one.
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Sakura
Member
So if the engine isn't the same, keeps changing blah blah blah then I guess the shitty visuals, character models, animations, bugs everywhere etc are not the fault of the engine, but just that Bethesda is incompetent? I don't understand the point Jason is arguing here. Either the engine has fundamental problems that persist even when they make changes (in which case people are not incorrect in criticising them for using the same engine) or they are just incompetent. Neither seems like a particularly good situation.
a multicultural team of v
Member
I cant wait for his followup article on how innovative the Telltale engine was.
flashfire926
Member
I gave Bethesda a pass with Fallout 4. The game started development like right after Fallout 3, basically in a vacuum, and it was their first crack at next gen consoles. Also, I thought it looked fine for an early gen game.
But with Fallout 76, I expected a Oblivion to Skyrim type improvement, since they should know the ins and outs of the hardware better. I can't give them a pass for a second time. There have been a lot of games between 2015-2018 that have really pushed what even the base consoles are capable of (Look at Sony exclusives, Forza Horizon, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Red Dead, and more), and Fallout 76 falls incredibly short.
But with Fallout 76, I expected a Oblivion to Skyrim type improvement, since they should know the ins and outs of the hardware better. I can't give them a pass for a second time. There have been a lot of games between 2015-2018 that have really pushed what even the base consoles are capable of (Look at Sony exclusives, Forza Horizon, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Red Dead, and more), and Fallout 76 falls incredibly short.
Plague Doctor
Member
"Remember folks, the consumer is always wrong and entitled at times. Just be a good little consumer, shut up and/or buy it." -Gaming Journalism
No wait... Jason is on our side cause he was blacklisted... for leaking a game. Hard hitting and critical about the industry right there. He leaked game info.
This needs repeating and this really goes for any major site and any major publisher. I don't think it is ever a direct bribe/shill ever. But if your company's livelihood depends on advertising revenue from the businesses you are covering/reviewing, and generate traffic by having exclusive scoops... well... you toe the line and you toe it well. You are going to play ball or your editor will do it for you.
No wait... Jason is on our side cause he was blacklisted... for leaking a game. Hard hitting and critical about the industry right there. He leaked game info.
This needs repeating and this really goes for any major site and any major publisher. I don't think it is ever a direct bribe/shill ever. But if your company's livelihood depends on advertising revenue from the businesses you are covering/reviewing, and generate traffic by having exclusive scoops... well... you toe the line and you toe it well. You are going to play ball or your editor will do it for you.
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It’s true that a lot of complaints don’t fully understand the core issue but people need something to complain about when games are shipping this broken. Fallout 76 is a train wreck technically.
What I’m curious about is the involvement of the main BGS team. I was under the impression this was a side project mostly handled by another team.
Nobody has fallen in love with BGS games over their tech, though (well, that XnGine was pretty sexy). Their PC releases are at least usually solid performance wise.
What I’m curious about is the involvement of the main BGS team. I was under the impression this was a side project mostly handled by another team.
Nobody has fallen in love with BGS games over their tech, though (well, that XnGine was pretty sexy). Their PC releases are at least usually solid performance wise.
I dunno about their site but we’re kept in the dark about ad stuff. It’s never something I take into account anyways and I don’t have a clue what will run on the site and certainly not YT. I think that’s the best way to do it - the ad team does their thing separately. It’s not like we could realistically post a positive assessment of FO76’s performance, after all. It’s in a bad state at the moment.
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Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
Because an engine is an engine, the dude is arguing semantics just as a way to slam gamers again, I'm tired of this attitude coming from "gaming journalists" who want to talk down to their own audience.
Also "glue eating inbred mouth breather"? Why so sensitive over this? Are you secretly Jason Schreier himself?
The Scrivener
Member
We need to look at graphics from the point of view of chicken and rice? No. You need to look at games journalism from the point of view of shit and piss.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
An engine isn't an engine. If you've been paying attention to the past 30 years, they aren't building these things from the ground up.
I'm not Jason Shreier although I find it interesting that you latched onto my extreme statement and it was offensive to you. Were you part of /r/incels? How about the Donald?
Are you indeed a glue eating mouth breather that breathes profusely through the mouth while typing with two fingers?
Let's find out.
You're already upset about what I said and I see that you're rocking an anime esque profile pic, so you're checking a lot of boxes considering.
It would be absolutely delicious if you called me a cuck or an NPC.
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Lanrutcon
Member
They've been jury rigging and bolting whatever the fuck they can onto that outdated engine for years now. The code must read like the inside of a tree at this point: layers and layers representing the various people that have worked on it over the last 2 decades. Every ring an effort to retrofit some new piece of functionality onto the aging beast. See that shitty brown ring? That's when they nailed a different renderer to the side and tried to convince us it's a new engine. They even rebranded it for Skyrim. Everyone was totally fooled.
And now this unholy Jenga tower of a development tool has had multiplayer functionality added to it. I'm sure the new Fallout game gave every quality assurance tester PTSD.
And now this unholy Jenga tower of a development tool has had multiplayer functionality added to it. I'm sure the new Fallout game gave every quality assurance tester PTSD.
Wrong. An engine isn't just an engine and most of the times, an engine consists of other engines too, like the physics engine Havoc which is an engine that also changes all the time.
My view: the majority of people playing video games don' t know anything about game engines. They know perhaps there is an engine called CryENGINE, Unreal Engine and Unity and that's it.
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TeamGhobad
Banned
he plays devils advocate too often
Do people not seem to understand that an engine is more than just graphics? Why do people keep harping about graphics and how other games improved their graphics with old engines?
Engines affect what is possible in gameplay too and that is, inarguably, more important. The gameplay in Bethesda games is dated as all hell. Tacking on a few new lighting systems is probably easier than rewriting core systems that are used for gameplay too.
Engines affect what is possible in gameplay too and that is, inarguably, more important. The gameplay in Bethesda games is dated as all hell. Tacking on a few new lighting systems is probably easier than rewriting core systems that are used for gameplay too.
xrnzaaas
Member
Creation engine is shit and it should go imo. I hope that Bethesda won't be as stubborn as Telltale by wanting to stick with their own engine for as long as possible. Sure, Telltale's demise was caused by many things, but a heavily outdated and flawed engine was one of the reasons many people stopped playing Telltale's games.
Gormless Noodle
Member
To a small degree that, but mostly it's the ragebait. Ragebait is a consistent form of clicks/traffic and thus, revenue. Scoops only come once in a while if at all.
CuNi
Member
Havoc is a engine. It has evolved yes but its still in terms terms the same engine. Havoc is a good example of a well aging and constantly maintened engine. The creation engine is a prime example of a engine that is updated and expanded upon a so unbelievably old core, that things like physics literally are still locked with fps. That alone tells you that the engine is barely maintained and even the changes and updates are made to the wrong parts of the engine. That's like updating the steering wheel and interior in a car while all its core systems are still 20y old. Yes it's not the same it was X years ago, but it's still shit and still has the same issues as earlier versions, so of course I will compare it to its older self version and say it's the same because obviously, core features did barely change and a few touches to ui etc don't constitute a major change as to be called "something completely new just sharing the name".
{insert code here}
Member
Does this journalist have a background in C++ or something? Is he even qualified to tell us what game engines are and are not?
Cunth
Fingerlickin' Good!
He has a background in reee++
30yearsofhurt
Member
Maybe he should defend his readers as a so called game journalist. Disgusting guy, disgusting website. If I ever browse Kotaku again, may the Lord strike me with thunder from heaven. Amen.
Goddmb @Horns, it's like you read in my mind. Some serious MGS Psycho Mantis shit going on here
Oh you poor dear.
How dare that naughty man upset you with his factually correct statement.
"FaCtUaLlY CoRrEcT"