• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Jason Schreier of Kotaku defends Bethesda for using the same engine

Yeah see, that just sounds like whining. If you still don't find the game perfectly playable after installing all kinds of mods which do indeed improve the gameplay and stability, then you're just crying for no reason and should play a different game. The engine isn't the problem, its how you use the engine and the improvements to it over time that make all the difference in each individual game. The engine improves pretty much with every game, granted not as much as it should, but now we're just beating up Bethesda, not their use of the "same engine!"

Whatever dude. Just because it doesn't bother you and/or you don't know any better and probably don't understand why these complaints are being made in the first place doesn't invalidate legitimate complaints against their development practices and their tech.

Just know that you're unequivocally wrong in your claim that modders are "fixing" the foundation or their tech in general without completely replacing the engine itself.
 
Last edited:

NickFire

Member
Whether I agree with him or not, these are the kinds of pieces I enjoy reading. For the record, I think he has a fair point even if there is reason to question the motives in light of their blacklisting.
 
Why does this guy defend everything horrible in video game industry? SJW-ism, lack of innovation in games, etc... I swear the modern video game 'journalist' is some kind of plant to destroy it.
 

renzolama

Member
The resetera thread about this is hilarious, he has a semi-meltdown when a few people disagree with him...you can feel his utter confusion/frustration that his statements aren't being adored/parroted by everyone. It's definitely worth a read.

Edit: Here's my favorite

I really liked this forum, but posts like "I guess that's just what you gotta do when most of your job requires not pissing off any devs" -- referring to the one journalist who isn't going to lavish Fallout 76 press events at the Greenbrier, and the only one who's been blacklisted by Bethesda for five years because he refused to be an extension of their marketing -- make me wonder why I bother.

I'm the special boy! Me!
 
Last edited:

Zewp

Member
The engine is the reason modders have such an easy time fixing the games and making them better. And yes, Bethesda has been casualizing the shit out of their games over the years, hence why their fans are such filthy casuals...

What do you consider 'fixing'? And which mod has 'fixed' the fundamental gameplay problems? Because the poor gameplay is the game's biggest problem and the reason the engine needs to go.

There's a reason the most ambitious and game-changing mods couldn't be ported to console or had to be stripped down to mere empty husks of their PC versions when they got ported. All of those hyper ambitious mods rely on third-party script extenders, because the engine simply can't handle what they need to do. They're also very unstable and prone to breaking for the slightest reason.

Gamebryo Creation Engine needs to go. Fallout 4 was clear proof of that. It's so poorly optimized that they couldn't even make the games look like 8th gen console games on either Xbox One or PS4, much less maintain stable 30fps with graphics from last gen. I'm pretty sure we had games from 7th gen that looked better than Fallout 4 on 8th gen. And on top of that, the gameplay is simply atrocious. Sure, they improved the shooter gameplay a bit. Now it plays like an FPS from the mid-2000s. Maybe.

But hey, the Creation Engine has so much potential! The modders of one of the most ambitious mods for Skyrim (Skyblivion) simply don't know what they're talking about. I can't wait to play TES6 on 9th gen consoles. With graphics straight from the 90s in slideshow format and clicking 200 times on an enemy that barely reacts to my attacks in a game world that is completely dead and devoid of life. TES6 GOTY all the years! Long live Gamebryo!

Lol.
 
Last edited:

Hendrick's

If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
The resetera thread about this is hilarious, he has a semi-meltdown when a few people disagree with him...you can feel his utter confusion/frustration that his statements aren't being adored/parroted by everyone. It's definitely worth a read.

Edit: Here's my favorite

I really liked this forum, but posts like "I guess that's just what you gotta do when most of your job requires not pissing off any devs" -- referring to the one journalist who isn't going to lavish Fallout 76 press events at the Greenbrier, and the only one who's been blacklisted by Bethesda for five years because he refused to be an extension of their marketing -- make me wonder why I bother.

I'm the special boy! Me!
He lost me at admitting to liking that toilet, but then doubled down by referring to himself in third person.
 

Cosmogony

Member
And who committed themselves to turning the engine into a selling point?
Bethesda did.

This is Skyrim's first official gameplay promo, back in 2011. Do you know what Todd Howard decided to open with?
Yes, the very first thing he decided to mention?
Engine talk.



Seven years later, that decision is biting them in the rear end. You can't bank of the merits of an Engine allegedly so fresh it got a new name and then expect people to let go of the subject whenever a new title comes out. The bottom line is the pervasive sensation that whatever assorted technology Bethesda's using is simply not up-to-par with what other AAA developers, notably Rockstar and CD Projekt RED, are employing and that such gap is in fact widening with each iteration.
 

BANGS

Banned
Whatever dude. Just because it doesn't bother you and/or you don't know any better and probably don't understand why these complaints are being made in the first place doesn't invalidate legitimate complaints against their development practices and their tech.

Just know that you're unequivocally wrong in your claim that modders are "fixing" the foundation or their tech in general without completely replacing the engine itself.
What do you consider 'fixing'? And which mod has 'fixed' the fundamental gameplay problems? Because the poor gameplay is the game's biggest problem and the reason the engine needs to go.

There's a reason the most ambitious and game-changing mods couldn't be ported to console or had to be stripped down to mere empty husks of their PC versions when they got ported. All of those hyper ambitious mods rely on third-party script extenders, because the engine simply can't handle what they need to do. They're also very unstable and prone to breaking for the slightest reason.

Gamebryo Creation Engine needs to go. Fallout 4 was clear proof of that. It's so poorly optimized that they couldn't even make the games look like 8th gen console games on either Xbox One or PS4, much less maintain stable 30fps with graphics from last gen. I'm pretty sure we had games from 7th gen that looked better than Fallout 4 on 8th gen. And on top of that, the gameplay is simply atrocious. Sure, they improved the shooter gameplay a bit. Now it plays like an FPS from the mid-2000s. Maybe.

But hey, the Creation Engine has so much potential! The modders of one of the most ambitious mods for Skyrim (Skyblivion) simply don't know what they're talking about. I can't wait to play TES6 on 9th gen consoles. With graphics straight from the 90s in slideshow format and clicking 200 times on an enemy that barely reacts to my attacks in a game world that is completely dead and devoid of life. TES6 GOTY all the years! Long live Gamebryo!

Lol.
Both of you are completely missing the point. The engine gets upgrades and the games themsevles get fixed by modders all the time without using a whole new engine. A script extender is not a new engine, it's an engine upgrade. You are pretending you know what you are talking about, but you really are just complaining because you don't want the bandwagon to leave without you...

Now don't get me wrong, Bugthesda WILL most likely fuck their new games up, but not because they need a new engine. It'll be because they didn't upgrade their engine enough, playtest enough, etc...
 

Inviusx

Member
This thread makes me weep for the future if this industry.

"Just use a new engine bro"

I mean come on people.
 

Hudo

Member
I really don't like Schreier but I can admit that his "investigative" pieces are (mostly) not bad (because they are the basis for books he's going to shill). However, his opinion pieces are almost always ill informed and very reactionary. That being said, and it pains me to say this, he isn't wrong in this instance.

But then he destroys any validity this article has by defending a company he's not working for, which makes him look questionable as a "journalist". He should've just been silent, IMHO.
 

Lanrutcon

Member
Both of you are completely missing the point. The engine gets upgrades and the games themsevles get fixed by modders all the time without using a whole new engine. A script extender is not a new engine, it's an engine upgrade. You are pretending you know what you are talking about, but you really are just complaining because you don't want the bandwagon to leave without you...

Now don't get me wrong, Bugthesda WILL most likely fuck their new games up, but not because they need a new engine. It'll be because they didn't upgrade their engine enough, playtest enough, etc...

I would seriously suggest you get a handle on the thread before you start accusing other people of not knowing what they're talking about. When it comes to missing the point: you're setting the pace at the moment.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
This thread makes me weep for the future if this industry.

"Just use a new engine bro"

I mean come on people.

how do they fix the bugs? there are so many bugs in their games, and they appear in every game, and every game uses the same engine. it is only natural that people connect the two.

at any rate, it doesn't matter, it is a misdirection. a technicality. people don't really care if it's the engine at fault or not, if the devs cannot manage memory data properly it is a problem. it doesn't matter if it really isn't the engine and it's something else, who the fuck cares? pointing this out only makes you seem like a snob or grammer nazi. what is your solution. if it's not the engine, what is it?

i searched the word "fix" and got 0 results from the article. does Jason offer any solutions? no. do the devs have ways they can fix these issues? the article never goes into that. it says people are wrong to call it an engine. then it says what an engine is. then it ends. it's a shitty article that is as informative as a Wikipedia article. how do they fix these issues? if it's not the engine then tell what it is, don't just read off a definition of an engine and go away thinking you educated the public on anything.

what is wrong with Bethesda games? why do they keep having these problems? "it's not the engine" is not an answer. these games are buggy. people want them fixed.
 
Last edited:

L0wMax

Member
He's right by saying not to blame "the game engine"

The game engine is only a tool (in the form of an API and editor in the case of Unity, which I use) that the programmer uses to create the game. How well the game runs largely depends on how the programmer utilizes that API. For example I could suddenly decide to use unreal engine which I am not familiar with, one that everyone seems to think is fantastic, and have it chug and glitch by shitty programming, because I wouldn't know what I was doing. Yes, there's certain functions the game engine carries out in the background like physics and lighting calculations, but in the end it's up to the programmer to optimize the code and debug the game.
 

dirthead

Banned
Media shill defends shitty corporate practices. News at 11.

200.gif
 
why the fuck do these people come out of no where defending companies so hard. i dont know who jason is but im betting hes someone with a weak jaw line
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
It's simple, Bethesda engine Still shows and feels janky. The fact I can still see the same issues and style of engine from Oblivion to fallout 4 shows the problem.

It's like when tell tale said they've fixed their engine. You can say it but actions speak much louder.
 

Agent_4Seven

Tears of Nintendo
it's up to the programmer to optimize the code and debug the game
There is no such people at Bethesda cuz their motto is - "Don't fix it if it's broken, let people do the job and pay us money to do our work for us = profit".
 
Last edited:

BANGS

Banned
I would seriously suggest you get a handle on the thread before you start accusing other people of not knowing what they're talking about. When it comes to missing the point: you're setting the pace at the moment.
Not really, I've defended my positions just fine...
 

ultrazilla

Member
The engine is TERRIBLY OUTDATED. I really wish they'd go with Unreal Engine 4. I've played a bit of Fallout 76 and while the game runs
smooth on my pc rig, when I encounter enemies and other players, the models are just not good.

I understand there's a ton of stuff going on in the game that the engine is processing but in the end, this does NOT LOOK LIKE A AAA developed full priced
title
. It looks and feels like a mod to Fallout 4 with multiplayer added.

I guess we'll have to wait for the modding community to get updated player and creature models along with higher resolution assets to us. Probably won't
be playing it again for some time.
 

Neo_Geo

Banned
If this was a development studio on the lower end of the spectrum with limited time/funds, I would agree. It's indefensible as it is.
 
Mr. Schreir could have written his article in such a way that it didn't talk down to its readers, which may then have achieved his assumed objective of being informative. Instead, the piece comes across as patronizing and whiny, with the air of being a corporate apologist. For something I'm guessing is meant to be a serious article, I have to wonder whether it's the growing inability of people in the media to write in a reasonable fashion or if the needs for clicks, by way of sensationalism, has just taken that much precedence.
 

Simply_Bry

Member
I don't care how they call it; creating a new or modifying an existent engine/framework blablabla, Fallout 4 and Fallout 76 both look like trash and are full with bugs that should not exist after so many years of experience with the same engine. RDR and RDR2 for instance, that's like comparing Cathlyn Jenner to Megan Fox. You can't deny there is something really wrong with how Bethesda develops their games. A shame the same people are working on Starfield and TESVI
 
Last edited:

Hendrick's

If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
This thread makes me weep for the future if this industry.

"Just use a new engine bro"

I mean come on people.
Nice job of ignoring all the factual and intelligent conversation and boiling the thread down to "you guys are dumb".
 

Vlightray

Member
I just don't understand how Guerilla games can make there engine output a rpg (lite) from a technically speaking FPS engine. And achieve stunning results when these apparently talented devs at Bethesda have to use the same thing over with tweaks that are just hiding the issues. It's a reasonable engine but not for 2018 onwards. Fallout 4 is basically a 3 with more polish and 76 is 4 with more polish you can't just keep applying the polish it's going to fall off at some point and in some ways it's already happening.
 

Hinedorf

Banned
This thread makes me weep for the future if this industry.

"Just use a new engine bro"

I mean come on people.

I haven't read/posted on here for very long but this is the first time I've ever been so flat out mortified by the opinions of the gaming community I generally like to read. All these people calling a professional journalist a schill, makes me wonder what you critics do for a living.
 
I haven't read/posted on here for very long but this is the first time I've ever been so flat out mortified by the opinions of the gaming community I generally like to read. All these people calling a professional journalist a schill, makes me wonder what you critics do for a living.
He's neither a journalist nor a professional.....move along.
 

zenspider

Member
Schreier is one of the only game journalists around and it's funny how much shit everybody gives him here. I get the history of neo and him but he does do real investigative shit which is more that most video game personalities do at their sites.
Bethesda's models looks like shit, especially their facial animations. I dig the art direction they are going for but it's getting played out especially when things like the Witcher 3, uncharted 4, rdr2, etc come out and put it to shame. That doesn't even mention the modders who put in all that unpaid work and do a great job. It's buggy as hell and I'm not interested in fo 76.

I agree that he does more actual journalism than almost everyone else that calls themselves journalists, but this kind of nonsense undermines that effort in my eyes.

It's incredibly patronizing, for one. I've coded. I know what a goddamn engine is and isn't.

He's using a semantic argument for the express purpose of undermining gamer's concerns with the quality of their software. It's childish, and it's not even entirely correct: It tries to address the oversimplification "same engine, same problems", but if it still is, to enough of an extent to call it the same engine, in fact, the same engine, it still carries the same concerns over to new iterations until explicitly shown otherwise. There's not some bad module generating all the bugs - it's clearly emergent issues from the aggregate interaction of these modules... aka the fucking engine.

And honestly, after reading it, I don't believe he understands what a game engine is and isn't. It's the same level of 'howdie-do-dat' understanding from the Horizon piece where Guerilla blew their minds to pieces that only what is in and reasonably close to the camera is rendered aka frustrum culling aka a technique as old as 3D rendering.

His motives here, however, are the issue. This isn't a desire to educate and explain or do good journalism, which we both agree he is capable of. It's an attack right in line with the #gamersaredead pieces. He's calling gamers idiots, as if that should unjustify thier concern or disappointment.
 
I haven't read/posted on here for very long but this is the first time I've ever been so flat out mortified by the opinions of the gaming community I generally like to read. All these people calling a professional journalist a schill, makes me wonder what you critics do for a living.
Considering this dude is always playing defense for massive AAA gaming publishers any time the unwashed gaming masses get angry at a corporate fuck up, it's no surprise he's accused of being a shill. You might say "Oh but he's blacklisted from Bethesda" and to that I counter, "He's trying to win back their favor by white knighting them, it's pretty clear to see". This dude is most definitely a mercenary PR wing for these gaming publishers.
 
There was a poster on the other site who said, more or less, this....

"It's unfair to assume that using the same basic Creation engine software for another game would lead to these kind of issues." He then followed it up with, "The next Bethesda game probably would have game play issues, but there is a chance it could get better. And that's all Kotaku was trying to say."

So.... people are misguided because there is a slim chance that they will add on a module to the Creation Engine that might somehow make it not shit.

Let that sink in.

That's the defense force for Bethesda. Believe the engine could get better. Believe.
 
this engine is a house built on a sand foundation. i'm sure they've done a lot of iterating on it, but bolting on a bunch of new modules clearly isn't working. it can't even hold a stable frame rate in rocksmith

anyone who couldn't see that Fallout 76 would be an absolute mess at launch hasn't played a Bethesda game in the last 10 years. every game they have released using Gamebryo has been a steaming pile of shit at launch, hell the ps3 version of skyrim took > 1 year to fix it up
 
Last edited:

EDMIX

Member
this engine is a house built on a sand foundation. i'm sure they've done a lot of iterating on it, but bolting on a bunch of new modules clearly isn't working. it can't even hold a stable frame rate in rocksmith

anyone who couldn't see that Fallout 76 would be an absolute mess at launch hasn't played a Bethesda game in the last 10 years. every game they have released using Gamebryo has been a steaming pile of shit at launch, hell the ps3 version of skyrim took > 1 year to fix it up

I'm playing Fallout 76 right now and a few hours in and I've yet to come across any bugs..... (besides the real ones in the wasteland) lol
 
I'm playing Fallout 76 right now and a few hours in and I've yet to come across any bugs..... (besides the real ones in the wasteland) lol

that's good to hear, hopefully your experience stays that way

I heard mixed reports about the ps3 version of skyrim was well. some people were able to play it through to completion without issues. while other people got this:
 

EDMIX

Member
that's good to hear, hopefully your experience stays that way

I heard mixed reports about the ps3 version of skyrim was well. some people were able to play it through to completion without issues. while other people got this:


lol

I'll make it known when I run across a bug that actually stops me from progressing or alters the game badly etc. I'll give my views on it maybe 10 hours in. Spiderman side quest and Red Dead Redemption 2 have been taking up a lot of my time.
 
that's good to hear, hopefully your experience stays that way

I heard mixed reports about the ps3 version of skyrim was well. some people were able to play it through to completion without issues. while other people got this:

I bought the PS3 version and while it started out okay, the game became literally unplayable. It was something to do with the save file reaching a certain size that totally fucked the game. Bugfesta released a patch that was supposed to fix the game but, in reality, didn't actually do very much.. And that was it, from their end, as far as I know. Game doesn't work? Sucks for you.
 

andreutas

Neo Member
Not even close to true. RAGE was made in 2006 and before that Rockstar used Criteron's RenderWare.
Actually Rage is derived from another game engine named Angel Game Engine, developed by Angel Studios (today Rockstar San Diego) for Midtown Madness. So im not that off
 
Top Bottom