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[mckmas8808]

Depends on the company and their success.

Adobe doesn't even sell Photoshop anymore. It's all monthly sub plans now. You wont be able to find $800 copies of Photoshop at a store in years.

Sales tracking would lead to 0.

Yet, Adobe's sales and profits are at record highs and climbing.

And as a current customer of Adobe, I HATE IT! I wish I could buy Lightroom and Premier Pro once for $500 each. Instead of paying $60 a month for both.

 

[phil_t98]

How do define a “garbage” game? Was Flappy Bird a “garbage” game?

flappy bird was garbage yes. if the game didn't get deleted then the hype wouldn't of been there and yeah the engagement levels on that game died very quickly

 

[M1chl]

Putting AAA games on it makes sense to get new subscribers only. Because they cost a lot, and you can bet that MS is loosing money by putting those AAA games there Day One.

Again, look at Sony where every new IP sells 10M copies. They arent evergreen, sure, but they sell a lot, resulting in great revenue numbers.

Using Netflix again as an example: its like releasing The Godfather Trilogy to get new subscribers, but after getting so many, it makes sense financially to make tons of cheap series or movies like The Kissing Booth to keep the masses engaged.

We will see how it goes, but looking at Netflix and other streaming services, I'm not optimistic.

Yeah, but with what you've said about Sony exclusives selling 10m (which I agree is a lot, but how many of which is at full price...), which is not that much for 100mil audience. It's probably more worth it, to get more money over time (like 6 months in this case), from lets say 15 mil people. I don't know how much cost to develop games at cadency of TLOU vs having 200 games of various scale on your service. Issue is probably that games are extremely non-felxible at offering price, which makes sense for them. Like TLOU is not in the same galaxy as some AA games for same price...

Well new subscribers, not necessarily since the current audience is still paying, but yeah new subscribers are always the main focus with acquiring such game.

Netflix is full of shitty movies/tv shows, but there are more of suchs services and we don't have to pick the worst one I believe. I think HBO Go at least in my country is really good. And cheaper than Netflix too. I think it's just netflix doing wayy too much and way too much of their own shows. This is not what MS is doing about GamePass (well they should have, all the talk about exlusives...), so I would not say it's that comparable, because all of those shitty shows are from Netflix itself. And even here or then there are good movies, like Irishman.

Will see, I was skeptical about this in the beginning, however after like 3 years (?) I am satisfied with the content I am getting there. And I found many gems, which I would overlooked otherwise. And yeah my spending is due to that higher, but my buck goes just for buying games, not the other reprehensible shit, which should not be part of our hobby, like cosmetics, emotes, charms, etc.

Works for me so far and MS got on service way more high profile games, than I expected initially and it does not appears that they are slowing down.

 

[mckmas8808]

flappy bird was garbage yes. if the game didn't get deleted then the hype wouldn't of been there and yeah the engagement levels on that game died very quickly

That's your opinion. I'm afraid that devs will led to making "addicting" games where there main goal is to create "engagement"; instead of a good crafted experience.

 

[omegasc]

I kind of agree, but I guess it depends on how a game gets this engagement from the users.
It's good if there's focus on real replay value, but it's bad if it focus on daily, repetitive activities with limits placed only to make you come back tomorrow for the same thing.
I will play Streets of Rage 4 again and again because it is awesome and I get better at it with practice. But I won't come back to a game every day to do a daily just to get 5 credits a day to buy a piece of armor after 20 days.

 

[phil_t98]

That's your opinion. I'm afraid that devs will led to making "addicting" games where there main goal is to create "engagement"; instead of a good crafted experience.

is engagement not good experience then?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

And as a current customer of Adobe, I HATE IT! I wish I could buy Lightroom and Premier Pro once for $500 each. Instead of paying $60 a month for both.

I dont use it, but saw their pricing and standard PS is $28/mth in Canada. By the looks of it based on the old pricing if you could buy it in store, you probably breakeven after two years of subbing.

But after that, it's all Adobe gravy.

 

[tsumake]

flappy bird was garbage yes. if the game didn't get deleted then the hype wouldn't of been there and yeah the engagement levels on that game died very quickly

The creator deleted the game because he couldn’t handle all the revenue coming in from the game. He was making $50,000 a day just from advertising. The game has spawned countless clones.

 

[tsumake]

And as a current customer of Adobe, I HATE IT! I wish I could buy Lightroom and Premier Pro once for $500 each. Instead of paying $60 a month for both.

Amen. I bought Lightroom 6 for that reason.

 

[mckmas8808]

is engagement not good experience then?

Not to me, no! Well........lets put it this way. What metrics are the Publishers using to sense "engagement"? Is it.....................

- Minutes in a GaaS lobby?
- Bullets used per day by all gamers?
- How many minutes gamers have literally streamed the game?


I just don't trust the Publishers. It's not really about the devs. I have a good feel of what a good game is. I don't think most Publishers do (if their main metric will be "engagement).

 

[reksveks]

Why would a company waste so much money with singleplayer games on a live service model such as this?

Confused if you meant subscription instead of live service mode but if you did.

Cause it can drives new subscribers and you can then try and monetize them when they are in the platform

 

[phil_t98]

The creator deleted the game because he couldn’t handle all the revenue coming in from the game. He was making $50,000 a day just from advertising. The game has spawned countless clones.

yeah there are countless car games but does that mean they are all good? if they were on a service were a gamer can choose what to play and they get payed the more the gamer plays it I guarantee that the quality would go up

 

[mckmas8808]

I kind of agree, but I guess it depends on how a game gets this engagement from the users.
It's good if there's focus on real replay value, but it's bad if it focus on daily, repetitive activities with limits placed only to make you come back tomorrow for the same thing.
I will play Streets of Rage 4 again and again because it is awesome and I get better at it with practice. But I won't come back to a game every day to do a daily just to get 5 credits a day to buy a piece of armor after 20 days.

EXACTLY THIS!

I fear that publishers will push devs to create video game "slot machines" where the currency is not money, but our TIME. So they'll be asked to create gameplay scenarios that force a player to keep coming back day after day to engage with it, instead of making a game that's just fun to play.

 

[tsumake]

Confused if you meant subscription instead of live service mode but if you did.

Cause it can drives new subscribers and you can then try and monetize them when they are in the platform

It seems like these large AAA single player games are becoming the gaming equivalent of a prestige film. They are made to help elevate the image and brand of the company and the industry in general.

 

[phil_t98]

Not to me, no! Well........lets put it this way. What metrics are the Publishers using to sense "engagement"? Is it.....................

- Minutes in a GaaS lobby?
- Bullets used per day by all gamers?
- How many minutes gamers have literally streamed the game?


I just don't trust the Publishers. It's not really about the devs. I have a good feel of what a good game is. I don't think most Publishers do (if their main metric will be "engagement).

what about the last of us 2? that was very engaging to play. in fact it was so engaging most who played it completed it. if the players didn't feel engaged by it then it would of quickly been left

 

[tsumake]

yeah there are countless car games but does that mean they are all good? if they were on a service were a gamer can choose what to play and they get payed the more the gamer plays it I guarantee that the quality would go up

 

[reksveks]

It seems like these large AAA single player games are becoming the gaming equivalent of a prestige film. They are made to help elevate the image and brand of the company and the industry in general.

It's basically this but don't think they have to be large AAA games.

 

[mckmas8808]

what about the last of us 2? that was very engaging to play. in fact it was so engaging most who played it completed it. if the players didn't feel engaged by it then it would of quickly been left

That's the good "gamer" type of engagement. I'm talking about the bad kind of engagement were a video game becomes slot machine. You can see this in many mobile games that are "free to play". Candy Crush was famous for this "type" of engagement.

 

[phil_t98]

well if your in a market where you wanting gamers to play your game more the quality will have to go up. in a market where people pay a one off fee to play your game it doesn't matter to you as they have played it by the time they played it.

 

[phil_t98]

That's the good "gamer" type of engagement. I'm talking about the bad kind of engagement were a video game becomes slot machine. You can see this in many mobile games that are "free to play". Candy Crush was famous for this "type" of engagement.

see that's the thing you seeing it as one type of "engagement" where I see it as the games becoming better and making the gamer want to play more

 

[tsumake]

well if your in a market where you wanting gamers to play your game more the quality will have to go up. in a market where people pay a one off fee to play your game it doesn't matter to you as they have played it by the time they played it.

Hey, I like your sentiment.

 

[TheAssist]

I agree with the basic statement, that long engagement does not always represent a good game, or good game design.

Whether or not subscription models will have an impact on that I dont know.

You can also make the argument that most people wont spend 20 bucks on a 5 hour game. If the same 5 hour game is on a subscription though....

Round and round it goes. Its probably going to be a mix.

But sure, if you are a big publisher and your main focus is maximizing profits, than just making like 2 or 3 games that only need to be updated over a 5 or so year period without developing new mechanics, new engines, new animations, tons of new code, etc. and getting lots of money with MTX, than thats your future. Fortunately, many developers dont actually want to work on these projects past the initial release, because even working on it is grindy and somewhat boring. So they probably will go elsewhere and if pubs want to keep their talent, they have to throw a bone to their devs every now and then.

Its not all doom and gloom. There will be publishers and Devs that will very much focus in these "experiences" but there will always be enough alternatives. Just like there is good and varied music outside of the mainstream and radio and interesting stuff happening in the movie business outside of Hollywood. Just look past all the marketing and find a niche that fits you.

 

[phil_t98]

Hey, I like your sentiment.

again the good thing at the moment is we can still buy the games to. its good to have options

 

[CrustyBritches]

I don't see it like that at all. F2P, to an extent, does what they are talking about. Subscription services are a way to compete with F2P with non-F2P titles. It's not a replacement for traditional sales, it's simply another revenue stream.

 

[Fredrik]

Be concerned about something important instead, like the planet or something. Nobody is forcing anyone to put their games on a subscription service, the market is going to correct itself if devs aren’t making enough money. The service providers will have to deal with dropping developer support if the payout isn’t enough.
As a gamer, stop worry and just enjoy cheaper gaming as long as it lasts, let the suits figure out the economics.

 

[Fake]

They're following the money, with I must say hurts the core basic of making and playing a game.

 

[Shmunter]

here's an alternative point of view, games will have to get better to keep engagement high.at the moment if you buy a game that's a dud you have paid for it, with a subscription service you won't play it any longer. so all in all it will make games companies make more engaging games for us gamers

Yeah but that still doesn’t change the underlying formula that devs would be funneled into. Also great games can be a few mare hours of engagement for a user vs hundreds or thousands under service models.

 

[mckmas8808]

see that's the thing you seeing it as one type of "engagement" where I see it as the games becoming better and making the gamer want to play more

We agree about TLOU2. I'm talking about the games that have the high level engagement, but it's not because the game is actually good.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Halo, Forza, Fable, and many other big MS first party titles will be focusing on GaaS due to GamePass. The multiplayer focus is real on these kind of services.

"Shit ton of short indie titles" that maybe wouldnt have much revenue otherwise by themselves, yes.

But we are talking about AAA singleplayer titles such as TLOU 2, GOW, GOT and etc. that wouldnt make sense financially.

Why would a company waste so much money with singleplayer games on a live service model such as this?

Starfield, Avowed, Fable, and Outer Worlds 2 are all single-player RPGs and Hellblade 2 will be a 3rd person single-player game. None of those games fit your false GaaS narrative.

 

[tsumake]

Starfield, Avowed, Fable, and Outer Worlds 2 are all single-player RPGs and Hellblade 2 will be a 3rd person single-player game. None of those games fit your false GaaS narrative.

Those are exceptions, not the rule.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Those are exceptions, not the rule.

1 or 2 games would be an outlier, I just listed 5 off the top of my head. Your argument about GaaS becoming a necessity in future Game Pass games doesn't hold up.

 

[tsumake]

1 or 2 games would be an outlier, I just listed 5 off the top of my head. Your argument about GaaS becoming a necessity in future Game Pass games doesn't hold up.

It’s not necessarily my argument. But the trend is towards GaaS. That’s where the money is. If lootboxes weren’t so heavily scrutinized we’d have more of those too.

 

[Shmunter]

And just like clockwork Phil has influencers doing damage control….

No, no we’re not mandating GaaS only, trust us…..


No one is saying that Phil, the concern is the natural evolution will lead devs down the path. Nothing to do with telling them which path to take.

 

[Keihart]

It's definitely concerning. I see Netflix and all i see are trash shows just there to have something for the masses to watch which is pretty much the opposite of what these premium tv channels like HBO and Showtime used to be.

If games follow this trend then every game will be a shallow and grindy experience like Ubisoft games.

Netflix has ton of variety thought, almost everything gets greenlighted, it's just like the Southpark joke about it.
I just wokeup wanting for a fresh horror movie, surprise surprise, there is a new Italian horror movie as Netflix Original, a pretty good one at that even.

I prefer netflix shows to HBO award winning series, only because the sheer amount of variety in them...there are not shits given about awards, they just want something to keep every corner of the subscriptors entertained, whatever sticks to the wall works.

TLDR; the bolded is wrong, Netflix aims to the niches not the masses, they thrive on variety which is the opposite of uniformity.

 

[bender]

Measuring engagement isn't new nor is compensation based on that metric. Saying it is the death of creativity and shorter games is the epitome of Chicken Little.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Well, if the future of gaming is more endless mediocrity like Sea of Thieves or Fortnite vs shorter but excellent games like GoW or GoT I´ll simply stop gaming alltogether. Just one hobby among many after all.

I've heard this for years. I never got why people keep saying things they will never do just to add dramatic flare to their dislike of the Xbox brand. I mean, isn't that the real reason to focus first on Sea of Thieves as evidence of this "endless mediocrity?" The only thing endless here is your ignorance of all the different reasons that different people game in the first place, and ignorance of the fact that if what you say is true then you should have already stopped gaming because what you're talking about is already here in spades and you're one of its principle supporters.

If you're one of those people who play Grand Theft Auto or GTA online, Red Dead Redemption 2, Assassin's Creed, have ever played a fallout or elder scrolls title, play Ghosts of Tsushima, God of War, Last of Us, Uncharted, or potentially buying/playing every major new Call of Duty and purchasing battle passes, or are playing games like Destiny, Star Wars Battlefront, Apex Legends (and chances are high you are, or have, done SOME of that), then you are part of the problem you claim to hate so much.

Don't you get it? EvenThe VERY games you highlight, God of War, Ghosts of Tsushima, as excellent representations of gaming done right are precisely the reasons why developers and publishers aim to, for larger and more extended periods of time, get people to occupy and to keep playing games in those kinds of worlds. Games like this are the bait to hook the fish such as yourselves, to hook all of us, and they work. You are evidence they work.

You think Ghosts of Tsushima isn't headed squarely in Assassin's Creed territory in terms of length, world size and activities? You think games made by Sony, like Uncharted, God of War, Last of Us 2, Spider-Man, Horizon Forbidden West are either becoming or already are more semi-open hub worldish or full open world by accident!? They're slowly conditioning you to be a consumer who is accepting of such longer, service based experiences going forward where you are willing to keep paying more to dive back in and to stay immersed, but it will never mean the experiences people desire go away. They will always exist as trojan horses to introduce the service based option, or to make you believe that's not what you're getting when it actually is. When Insomniac made Sunset Overdrive and they pitched it as they did, what do you believe the purpose of that pitch was when they mentioned the idea of an evolving world that would be added onto? You think this isn't coming squarely to the Spider-Man games as well? It's already here.

Miles Morales and the next gen Spider-Man upgrade was additional on top of this strategy. What do you think this expansion to Ghosts of Tsushima is all about with the whole new island, extra playable content and even the next gen upgrades? It's a way to get you to spend more money on a game you've already bought and play it for longer, or spend more money upfront on a game you have yet to buy if you didn't get it yet. This is why you have a Director's cut for Ghosts of Tsushima, why you have a Director's Cut for Death Stranding, and you can bet your ass there will be more of them coming to existing games, and then the next big release will take the ideas even further. This is why EA is doing what they are with their special editions for FIFA 22 and other future titles. It's the same thing as what Sony is doing, where you're spending extra for the next-gen enhancements and whatever else you deem worthy.

They've added multiplayer to Ghosts of Tsushima, they added RAIDS... where do you think they are going with this stuff!? They are spoon feeding you slowly but surely with their ultimate strategy and direction.

Fortnite is endless mediocrity to you, but here you are happily about to go spend money for Season 2 of Ghosts of Tsushima, just like you happily spend on Seasonal content for Spider-Man, and may even be willing to spend on Season 2 for Death Stranding. You think this stuff and Spider-Man DLC and Ghosts DLC is any different from Fortnite's season passes? or Call of Duty's Season passes? They dress it up differently, but they're all the same.

At least Sea of Thieves in all its "endless mediocrity" gives away its latest Pirates Life DLC for free to all existing and new buyers of the game. Ghosts of Tsushima's raids were free and came so quickly because they were always part of plan from the get go. And newer raids will be added in the new DLC. People can't see they're in a form of Destiny game, just with Samurai. Expect newer "dimensions" to explore in ratchet and clank rift apart. This is also why Halo Infinite is a 10 year project. They will add or perhaps open up parts of the Zeta Halo ring, or allow travel to different places in the galaxy.

In conclusion, I don't know why despite all the evidence to the contrary, and their popularity, that people keep assuming wrongly that amazing singleplayer experiences are going away. If they did you could kiss the lions share of the money floating around and responsible for the continued rapid growth of the games industry good bye. Even the most ambitious service based experiences try to lure you in by the promise of some kind of great story or adventure. Without singleplayer stories or adventures the money would be gone from the games industry.

Just like Fallout and Elder Scrolls singleplayer games were the precursor to Elder Scrolls Online and Fallout 76, but it doesn't mean we won't get Starfield or Elder Scrolls VI. It doesn'tt mean we won't get a future singleplayer Fallout.


All this silly crying wolf is for nothing. I've been hearing people saying they were going to quit gaming since horse armor DLC came about. You're still here because you are easy prey. We all are. And the same people who talk trash about GTA Online and Assassins Creed Infinity, will be right on board the next time they show you something that hooks your asses. They will use the singleplayer adventure bait.

 

[Zannegan]

I don't think subscriptions services themselves are a bad thing as some on here seem to be arguing. That said, I agree wholeheartedly that engagement isn't the best way to measure quality. I get that it's a convenient, objective metric by which companies hope to offer constant, consistent entertainment without overspending/overproducing. But it doesn't tell the whole story.

Some games keep you coming back for more and stay fun for years. Others suck you in and make you feel like garbage but have the kind of psychological hooks that keep you playing anyway (look at most phone games, all cookie clickers, and many multiplayer games driven by "seasons"). Measuring by engagement, both categories come out the same level of quality or success. Worse, measuring by engagement per development dollar spent, clickers and the like come out far ahead.

In short, I'd love it if companies used the idea of engagement to produce multiplayer games that feel like roller coasters, but I'm afraid we're going to get more games--multiplayer and single player--that feel like hamster wheels instead.

 

[mckmas8808]

Starfield, Avowed, Fable, and Outer Worlds 2 are all single-player RPGs and Hellblade 2 will be a 3rd person single-player game. None of those games fit your false GaaS narrative.

Every single one of those games have been in development before GamePass hit its stride. Well......lets keep an eye on Fable actually.

 

[Punished Miku]

I've heard this for years. I never got why people keep saying things they will never do just to add dramatic flare to their dislike of the Xbox brand. I mean, isn't that the real reason to focus first on Sea of Thieves as evidence of this "endless mediocrity?" The only thing endless here is your ignorance of all the different reasons that different people game in the first place, and ignorance of the fact that if what you say is true then you should have already stopped gaming because what you're talking about is already here in spades and you're one of its principle supporters.

If you're one of those people who play Grand Theft Auto or GTA online, Red Dead Redemption 2, Assassin's Creed, have ever played a fallout or elder scrolls title, play Ghosts of Tsushima, God of War, Last of Us, Uncharted, or potentially buying/playing every major new Call of Duty and purchasing battle passes, or are playing games like Destiny, Star Wars Battlefront, Apex Legends (and chances are high you are, or have, done SOME of that), then you are part of the problem you claim to hate so much.

Don't you get it? EvenThe VERY games you highlight, God of War, Ghosts of Tsushima, as excellent representations of gaming done right are precisely the reasons why developers and publishers aim to, for larger and more extended periods of time, get people to occupy and to keep playing games in those kinds of worlds. Games like this are the bait to hook the fish such as yourselves, to hook all of us, and they work. You are evidence they work.

You think Ghosts of Tsushima isn't headed squarely in Assassin's Creed territory in terms of length, world size and activities? You think games made by Sony, like Uncharted, God of War, Last of Us 2, Spider-Man, Horizon Forbidden West are either becoming or already are more semi-open hub worldish or full open world by accident!? They're slowly conditioning you to be a consumer who is accepting of such longer, service based experiences going forward where you are willing to keep paying more to dive back in and to stay immersed, but it will never mean the experiences people desire go away. They will always exist as trojan horses to introduce the service based option, or to make you believe that's not what you're getting when it actually is. When Insomniac made Sunset Overdrive and they pitched it as they did, what do you believe the purpose of that pitch was when they mentioned the idea of an evolving world that would be added onto? You think this isn't coming squarely to the Spider-Man games as well? It's already here.

Miles Morales and the next gen Spider-Man upgrade was additional on top of this strategy. What do you think this expansion to Ghosts of Tsushima is all about with the whole new island, extra playable content and even the next gen upgrades? It's a way to get you to spend more money on a game you've already bought and play it for longer, or spend more money upfront on a game you have yet to buy if you didn't get it yet. This is why you have a Director's cut for Ghosts of Tsushima, why you have a Director's Cut for Death Stranding, and you can bet your ass there will be more of them coming to existing games, and then the next big release will take the ideas even further. This is why EA is doing what they are with their special editions for FIFA 22 and other future titles. It's the same thing as what Sony is doing, where you're spending extra for the next-gen enhancements and whatever else you deem worthy.

They've added multiplayer to Ghosts of Tsushima, they added RAIDS... where do you think they are going with this stuff!? They are spoon feeding you slowly but surely with their ultimate strategy and direction.

Fortnite is endless mediocrity to you, but here you are happily about to go spend money for Season 2 of Ghosts of Tsushima, just like you happily spend on Seasonal content for Spider-Man, and may even be willing to spend on Season 2 for Death Stranding. You think this stuff and Spider-Man DLC and Ghosts DLC is any different from Fortnite's season passes? or Call of Duty's Season passes? They dress it up differently, but they're all the same.

At least Sea of Thieves in all its "endless mediocrity" gives away its latest Pirates Life DLC for free to all existing and new buyers of the game. Ghosts of Tsushima's raids were free and came so quickly because they were always part of plan from the get go. And newer raids will be added in the new DLC. People can't see they're in a form of Destiny game, just with Samurai. Expect newer "dimensions" to explore in ratchet and clank rift apart. This is also why Halo Infinite is a 10 year project. They will add or perhaps open up parts of the Zeta Halo ring, or allow travel to different places in the galaxy.

In conclusion, I don't know why despite all the evidence to the contrary, and their popularity, that people keep assuming wrongly that amazing singleplayer experiences are going away. If they did you could kiss the lions share of the money floating around and responsible for the continued rapid growth of the games industry good bye. Even the most ambitious service based experiences try to lure you in by the promise of some kind of great story or adventure. Without singleplayer stories or adventures the money would be gone from the games industry.

Just like Fallout and Elder Scrolls singleplayer games were the precursor to Elder Scrolls Online and Fallout 76, but it doesn't mean we won't get Starfield or Elder Scrolls VI. It doesn'tt mean we won't get a future singleplayer Fallout.


All this silly crying wolf is for nothing. I've been hearing people saying they were going to quit gaming since horse armor DLC came about. You're still here because you are easy prey. We all are. And the same people who talk trash about GTA Online and Assassins Creed Infinity, will be right on board the next time they show you something that hooks your asses. They will use the singleplayer adventure bait.

 

[Godot25]

Lol. Another "Gamepass will ruin gaming"

As OP for sure knows, Xbox is not paying for hours spent exclusively. They are paying in variety of ways. They are funding projects, paying one fixed big sum of money etc.

Also.. I failed to connect the dots here. Why are people think that gamepass will mean more live service games? If I'm invested in live service game I would rather buy it so I won't need to pay monthly fee and also pay for Battle Passes and other microtransactions in that service.

If I was obsessed with Sea of Thieves and only played this game what is more reasonable? Pay 40€ once and be done with it or pay 13€ every month for GPU?

It's funny. GTA VI and new AC are going live service and they are not on Game Pass or Stadia Pro. How strange...

Gamepass is great if you are literally playing another game every day which is opposite of live service.

 

[Dream-Knife]

If this is the future, we need another video game crash.

 

[synchronicity]

Anything that compromises artistic integrity for financial gain has the potential to (and ultimately will) be a cancer to genuine creativity - to honest expression.

 

[SlimySnake]

Netflix has ton of variety thought, almost everything gets greenlighted, it's just like the Southpark joke about it.
I just wokeup wanting for a fresh horror movie, surprise surprise, there is a new Italian horror movie as Netflix Original, a pretty good one at that even.

I prefer netflix shows to HBO award winning series, only because the sheer amount of variety in them...there are not shits given about awards, they just want something to keep every corner of the subscriptors entertained, whatever sticks to the wall works.

TLDR; the bolded is wrong, Netflix aims to the niches not the masses, they thrive on variety which is the opposite of uniformity.

That's great and all but network TV shows were already doing that, no? They are free albeit forced you to watch ads, but they checked all the boxes.

The entire idea behind premium paid channels like HBO was that you paid $15-20 a month ON TOP of your cable subscription to get those high budget and high quality shows that you normally wouldnt get on network tv.

I mean Netflix now has reality tv shows. Imagine paying $15 a month for reality tv. It literally defeats the purpose imo, but I am glad you are able to enjoy the variety and are willing to pay the premium price for it. Other than Irishman, I have struggled to stick to any netflix shows and movies. Trial of Chicago 7 is the first Netflix movie i have finished since the Irishman and even that was made for theaters and sold to Netflix because of the pandemic. The quality I have come to expect from HBO is just not there. I recently watched Mare of Easttown and struggled to understand why Netflix with all their fancy production values and hundreds of million of dollars in budgets arent able to produce quality dramas like Mare of Easttown.

 

[Godot25]

Every single one of those games have been in development before GamePass hit its stride. Well......lets keep an eye on Fable actually.

Excuse me?
Avowed started development at time Microsoft bought Obsidian and it is still singleplayer RPG. The Outer Worlds 2 started development at this time. Hellblade 2 was greenlit after acquisition. InXile is making single player RPG. Initiative is making story driven game. Compulsion too. So your post does not make any sense

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

A question for those opposed to the premise brought up in the OP...

If engagement isn't a good metric to gauge the quality of a game, can you name a better one?

Sales? Metascore? Completion rate?

 

[makaveli60]

Fuck this shit. Why everything has to become worse?

 

[synchronicity]

Realistically, monetization-driven design has always existed. Y’all heard of arcade machines right?

Not saying I like this, just saying, we’ve been there.

That's fair, but it's a matter of the actual creators being (mostly) untethered from the machine of commerce - free to express their vision/passion in the hopes of finding an audience. Any industry that gets too big/bloated/successful will inevitably have real creativity moved to the margins, hence we now often look to indies for real passion in gaming as the gears of commerce grind big-releases into formulas - soulless, mass-market husks of homogenized, cynical "creativity".

 

[mckmas8808]

Excuse me?
Avowed started development at time Microsoft bought Obsidian and it is still singleplayer RPG. The Outer Worlds 2 started development at this time. Hellblade 2 was greenlit after acquisition. InXile is making single player RPG. Initiative is making story driven game. Compulsion too. So your post does not make any sense

When would you consider GamePass hitting "its stride" then?

 

[mckmas8808]

A question for those opposed to the premise brought up in the OP...

If engagement isn't a good metric to gauge the quality of a game, can you name a better one?

Sales? Metascore? Completion rate?

I like Metascore better than engagement to be honest if I "HAD" to pick. But how about we don't do any of that. How about they do it the same way these guys did it?

Quincy Jones

Shigeru Miyamoto

James Cameron

You look at the product that you are going to "sell" to the public less like slot machine\cash register and more like a personal work of art.

 

[Skyfox]

I'm ok with it.