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[JCK75]

I'm not.. games rarely hit their potential early on in the lifecycle of a console, it takes a while for engines and assets to meet what they are capable of and do so efficiently..

 

[Filben]

Forbidden West's visuals is nothing but brilliant and insane when you think it runs on 500 EUR hardware. Also, resolution isn't everything. And especially in Forbidden West, that's the only thing noticeably changing between performance and graphics mode. So if you choose performance, you still get the same amazing graphics but with less pixels. Move farther away from the TV and you'll notice less and less difference. On the other hand they offer dramatically increased visuals over PS4 versions, such as much better lighting, textures and texture filtering, draw distances, (ground) foliage, facial animations, reflections and water transparency and rendering, geometry. That list is fucking huge and I don't know what people faithfully expect from a 500 EUR console, like offering every aforementioned plus native 4k plus 60fps plus ray-traced global illumination, shadows and reflections? This is something for enthusiasts only and these consoles ain't it. If you want that you'd have to pay enthusiast's prices.

There will always be 30fps mode because that's what the majority and developers accept as "smooth enough to be playable" for most games. So they will always push the visuals before 60fps no matter the power of consoles. Even on PC you can't have all the good stuff without "brute forcing" your way through with expensive hardware; with my 2070 Super (at 1440p) it's either RT and 30fps in Cyberpunk or 50-60 with only one RT option or rock solid 60fps without RT. It will always be a trade-off, only that you have more and intermediate options on PC than on console.

Expecting anything else seems a bit short-sighted. Look at the positives: there's only two options to choose from and you don't need to try out ten different options in each possible combination or watch a DF video for suggested/optimised settings, because, let's be honest, that's what most PC gamers have to do because only very few very committed people purchase something like a 3090, set everything to ultra on default an can positively expect 60fps.

 

[iHaunter]

Does it?

I find it almost a total waste of time in Ratchet.

Spiderman it's a bit more important because you've got these huge flat glass walls everywhere, so having decent reflections does help tie the image together a bit. As long as you don't stop to actually look closely at them of course. Cos then it's clear how severe the compromises really are.

I don't care what you find, I'm telling you what is. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a literal fact.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

Nearly every ‘power’ PC user is happy with 1440p resolution and maxing the framerates. For some reason console devs are determined to push resolution at all costs, over framerate, lod, draw distances.

It’ll never change. Buy a PC if you give a shit. It’s extremely frustrating. Especially seeing devs prioritise 1440p 30fps on the Series S instead of 1080p @ 60.

Show me a 1440p TV

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

I find this new generation of consoles super weak, but if there's one thing they got right is enabling the 60 fps performance mode.

I don't know how can you guys care so much about graphical fluff, 60 fps is the real game changer.

Please explain to me how to make a console that’s not weak for $399

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Show me a 1440p TV

Actually asked this on Reddit and apparently there is one manufacturer that makes a TV that supports that resolution.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

OP is not wrong. These consoles can't push high level graphics at 60fps. Too many compromises.

Even if Horizon FW had all the bells and whistles and also ran at native 4K/60, it would STILL look better if it was made with 30fps in mind.

In other words, high level graphics is a relative term. Where does “high level” start and stop? When are we at the highest level, because as far as I know, you can bring any hardware to it’s knees pretty easily, it just depends on what you throw at it.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

Actually asked this on Reddit and apparently there is one manufacturer that makes a TV that supports that resolution.

Heck, my TV supports that resolution, but it’s native 4K. You’re saying there’s an actual TV that is 1440p native?

 

[Bojji]

They pretty much answer the OP:

 

[Soapbox Killer]

My console gaming is limited to Xbox Series S w/ Pixio 27" VRR 120Hz HDR monitor with a total cost of $598.


Playing Gears 5 at 120fps feel right. No worries here brother.

 

[ZywyPL]

Let me introduce you to the gaming triangle:

The console GPUs are ~half as powerful as top-end RX6000 GPUs, which already seriously struggle at RT, so compromises will have to be made throughout the generation. Like someone already said - soon enough the PS5/XSX will be a 1080p30 machines.

 

[Hunnybun]

I don't care what you find, I'm telling you what is. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a literal fact.

Lol alright you grumpy twat, calm down.

 

[Dream-Knife]

I was thinking about this earlier, I think the PS5 pro will come out around the PSVR2. Base PS5 isn't strong enough to drive the specs of the PSVR2.

 

[NickFire]

I was thinking about this earlier, I think the PS5 pro will come out around the PSVR2. Base PS5 isn't strong enough to drive the specs of the PSVR2.

With the current manufacturing climate, that is extremely unlikely to occur.

 

[Stuart360]

I was thinking about this earlier, I think the PS5 pro will come out around the PSVR2. Base PS5 isn't strong enough to drive the specs of the PSVR2.

lol course it is. Thats like with the first PSVR and people said PS4 wasnt powerful enough and PSVR games would look like PS2 games at higher resolution. Well PSVR games didnt look far off standard PS4 games (except Driveclub VR lol)

 

[Dream-Knife]

lol course it is. Thats like with the first PSVR and people said PS4 wasnt powerful enough and PSVR games would look like PS2 games at higher resolution. Well PSVR games didnt look far off standard PS4 games (except Driveclub VR lol)

The PS5 (6600xt) can't play 4k (same amount of pixels in dual 2000x2040 displays) at 90+ fps.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

They pretty much answer the OP:

Are you Danjin44 's clone?
I'm confused.

 

[Cryio]

People were expecting these consoles to run locked 4K, at locked 60 or 120 fps, at better visuals in general, WITH RT on top at the same time, lmao.

If we would still be getting X360/PS3, levels of visuals, we could've have 4K60 with RT.

 

[Bojji]

Are you Danjin44 's clone?
I'm confused.

Did he have this avatar or something? I'm not sure what's going on

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

Did he have this avatar or something? I'm not sure what's going on

Yeah he changed it recently (actually he changes it every couple of months or so), it had the same character but it was a different avatar.

Just pulling your leg here, no worries

 

[platina]

Gameplay photo mode

Cross gen

 

[CityHunter1981]

Truth is these are not really 4k consoles. Make sure you have a tv that Upscale the picture nicely is the way to go for now.

Another problem is probably the AMD architecture, GeForce is just so much better at the moment especially when it comes to ray tracing. But also AMDs super sampling technology is just no match for DLSS. As shown by Digital Foundry DLSS looks better than native 4k already and have real speed benefits.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Truth is these are not really 4k consoles. Make sure you have a tv that Upscale the picture nicely is the way to go for now.

Another problem is probably the AMD architecture, GeForce is just so much better at the moment especially when it comes to ray tracing. But also AMDs super sampling technology is just no match for DLSS. As shown by Digital Foundry DLSS looks better than native 4k already and have real speed benefits.

That's what I've been trying to tell people but am met with such resistance. We'll see how it pans out..

 

[ColonialRaptor]

This entire issue is caused by cross gen.

When the games stop being cross gen it will be fine, or at least a lot better. There is so much headroom in these consoles for optimisation, the previous gen requirement of crossgen games really does hold them back that much.

Ratchet and Clank at 40fps in 120hz mode is perfect for that kind of game to me. The right balance of graphics and frame rate. Honestly I hope that becomes a trend because 40fps is just that much different than 30fps to be a game changer where as going all the way up to 60 doesn't cause that much difference to me. It's kind of nuts how far in front of the rest of the industry Insomniac seems to be with their tech. But it just shows that the couple of games that are native PS5 built with no cross gen version (DS and R&C) are widely considered the best looking games to date... right?

Games like Forza or FPS games need the higher frames sure, I've been playing Forza 5 on my PC and most of the time it runs at 90 - 100fps but some places it slows to 60fps for a short while and I can REALLY feel it it's like chug chug slide show and does not feel like 60 at all.

But it all depends on the game, Horizon I felt in the videos like I couldn't notice the 30fps that much although I also wonder if I'll be able to handle it when I play it myself. Might just wait for a PC release for that. Depends how far off it might be though.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

I don't think will have to worry about games becoming so demanding that the 60fps option will disappear, there is a huge delta in performance between 4k and 1080p, PS4 and Xbox One had few 60fps games mostly because of the weak CPU. This shouldn't be an issue this time around.

The same way that TAA gave a huge boost in IQ on the last gen, I believe that reconstruction techniques will continue to evolve, and native resolution will be less and less a requirement to a clean good-looking game. Those systems have a lot of power and flexibility to give to developers, give them time, and we will see some amazing things.

 

[01011001]

kind of nuts how far in front of the rest of the industry Insomniac seems to be with their tech.

they aren't "far in front" of anyone with their tech. they have good artists and programmers is all. the best engine out there is still iD Tech in terms of performance, and if you want an engine that supports complex environments it seems Cryengine V is very good for that. I bet Insomniac's engine wouldn't be able to keep up with either of those in their main target use cases

Insomniac is great at optimizing for their target platform and keeping their render budget in check. but nothing their engine does is in any way "far ahead". it's just that the dev team is really REALLY good and knows what it's doing.
So I think you're overestimating what role their tech plays in this, and underestimating the role of the actual people making the games

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

they aren't "far in front" of anyone with their tech. they have good artists and programmers is all. the best engine out there is still iD Tech in terms of performance, and if you want an engine that supports complex environments it seems Cryengine V is very good for that. I bet Insomniac's engine wouldn't be able to keep up with either of those in their main target use cases

Insomniac is great at optimizing for their target platform and keeping their render budget in check. but nothing their engine does is in any way "far ahead". it's just that the dev team is really REALLY good and knows what it's doing.
So I think you're overestimating what role their tech plays in this, and underestimating the role of the actual people making the games

They are a very talented studio with a great engine for their needs. This is not a product to license and be use in all sort of games, this is the good old in house tech to develop games, and that alone will always differentiate them from the rest. Compare their engine with UE5 or ID Tech is pointless, their engine is custom-made to fit their needs and targets, and it was produce great results. At the end, what we can compare is the games, and Ratchet and Clank is up there with the very best the industry offer today. Most studios that license UE5 or any other engine in the market won't have the same level of competence, Say what you must about Sony Studios, but a lot of them use their own tech and because of it, they achieve results that are hard to match even on more powerful hardware.

 

[Chris_Rivera]

We all know a Pro console will have to be released ‘24 or so. The x86 arch lends itself for updates and they have to keep up with PC hardware. What would be great is if they released a 599-699 version.

RISC arch seemed to be ideal for 3D gaming, would be cool if a return to that happens.

 

[01011001]

They are a very talented studio with a great engine for their needs. This is not a product to license and be use in all sort of games, this is the good old in house tech to develop games, and that alone will always differentiate them from the rest. Compare their engine with UE5 or ID Tech is pointless, their engine is custom-made to fit their needs and targets, and it was produce great results. At the end, what we can compare is the games, and Ratchet and Clank is up there with the very best the industry offer today. Most studios that license UE5 or any other engine in the market won't have the same level of competence, Say what you must about Sony Studios, but a lot of them use their own tech and because of it, they achieve results that are hard to match even on more powerful hardware.

their tech is great but not "far in front" of anyone is my point.

also, iD Tech is also an in house engine. pretty sure they don't license that out.. so also custom made lol

 

[BennyBlanco]

Truth is these are not really 4k consoles. Make sure you have a tv that Upscale the picture nicely is the way to go for now.

Another problem is probably the AMD architecture, GeForce is just so much better at the moment especially when it comes to ray tracing. But also AMDs super sampling technology is just no match for DLSS. As shown by Digital Foundry DLSS looks better than native 4k already and have real speed benefits.

Even top tier Nvidia GPUs with dedicated hardware for RT have trouble rendering it at native 4k, but that will matter less and less as time goes on. AI upscaling is only gonna get better.

Really how I think it will play out this gen is consoles will use their own reconstruction techniques and get limited RT features like mirror reflections and photo mode stuff. But raytracing will be an important bullet point for devs and people will eat it up.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

their tech is great but not "far in front" of anyone is my point.

also, iD Tech is also an in house engine. pretty sure they don't license that out.. so also custom made lol

With all do respect, allow me to disagree on the ID tech being better than Insomniac games. Looking at the games those engine produces for my money I still think that Ratchet is better than Doom Eternal Tech wise

 

[Sega Orphan]

One area where I am a bit surprised is the amount of pop in on the next gen games. It's even apparent on next gen only games.

I will make this about the PS5 solely due to the fact that the XSX has a lot of software around its speed optimisation, while the PS5 is pure hardware grunt.

People are saying the engines aren't made around SSDs, but it's a raw speed to the RSM is it not? The game engine doesn't need to work around this?
The RAM is being filled fast enough that all the textures etc are on board before they are needed to be drawn on the screen. This would tend to indicate that the RAM speed itself, and possibly the GPUs as well, are the bottle neck for these systems?

 

[01011001]

With all do respect, allow me to disagree on the ID tech being better than Insomniac games. Looking at the games those engine produces for my money I still think that Ratchet is better than Doom Eternal Tech wise

iD Tech 7 is amazing not only because of the graphics it produces but also because of how well it runs on almost any hardware.
one of the crazy things about it is how multi-threaded it is. you can run Doom Eternal on middling CPUs at upwards of 300 FPS no problem. not many modern engines can manage that because they usually don't really max out your CPU and leave tons of horsepower on the table

also, Doom Eternal looks fucking ridiculous at times. do you know any other game that comes even close to 1800p60fps with raytacing reflections on almost any shiny surface on console? or 1800p120fps? and all that with the graphics it has on display too

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

iD Tech 7 is amazing not only because of the graphics it produces but also because of how well it runs on almost any hardware.
one of the crazy things about it is how multi-threaded it is. you can run Doom Eternal on middling CPUs at upwards of 300 FPS no problem. not many modern engines can manage that because they usually don't really max out your CPU and leave tons of horsepower on the table

also, Doom Eternal looks fucking ridiculous at times. do you know any other game that comes even close to 1800p60fps with raytacing reflections on almost any shiny surface on console? or 1800p120fps? and all that with the graphics it has on display too

We can only assume that since we don't have any modern Insomniac game running on PC.

 

[Tams]

Blah

 

[01011001]

We can only assume that since we don't have any modern Insomniac game running on PC.

well I bet they didin't really bother optimizing for that, why would day after all. also we have one, Sunset Overdrive. most likely not the newest version of their engine but still the same engine.

 

[VFXVeteran]

they aren't "far in front" of anyone with their tech. they have good artists and programmers is all. the best engine out there is still iD Tech in terms of performance, and if you want an engine that supports complex environments it seems Cryengine V is very good for that. I bet Insomniac's engine wouldn't be able to keep up with either of those in their main target use cases

Insomniac is great at optimizing for their target platform and keeping their render budget in check. but nothing their engine does is in any way "far ahead". it's just that the dev team is really REALLY good and knows what it's doing.
So I think you're overestimating what role their tech plays in this, and underestimating the role of the actual people making the games

Yeap, this is a common claim only with PS gamers. Every single game that comes out is put at the top of the food chain every time. It gets old really fast.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

The current best selling gaming device is the Switch.
And consoles haven't been power houses for generations. You buy them for value, not power. It makes no sense wanting more power when the market can't supoort it.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

I think some of you guys should just chill and enjoy the games that this gen will bring. They are capable machines, don't' worry so much about details, you can't do much anyway.

 

[PC Gamer]

Ts, does it...

Spoiler

hurt when you think?

 

[Scotty W]

This is the last generation. The chip shortages will never end. Ballooning production costs and expanded revenue from low graphical quality and f2p games will lead developers to scale back their hames. Frame rates and polygon counts will fall and fall and fall. By 2030, new games will look like ps1 games. Prepare for doom and gloom.

 

[Md Ray]

Series S is what you should be about... Not PS5/XSX.

 

[ChiefDada]

These consoles *are* at their limits with regards to the GPU.

Base PS5 isn't strong enough to drive the specs of the PSVR2.

 

[64bitmodels]

tbh i dont worry about this since im totally ok with sacrificing graphics for performance, but i can see how some people would be worried seeing how these consoles cost a lot and they're kind of underdelivering currently

 

[Calling 911 Melts Beams]

its the only thing i ever think about

 

[Faithless83]

I am a huge fan of graphics technology in games but is undeniable for me how much more pleasurable Is to play games at 60fps instead of 30fps, specially games with first person view and games that require aim.

Today I was playing the campaign of Crossfire X and it feels really terrible in 30fps, like if the game is almost in slow down.
Even loving the feel of 60fps, I had to play Ratchet and clank, Miles Morales, guardians of the galaxy, forza horizon 5, all in graphics mode because honestly the 60FPS version had always big trades in visuals.

Now with even digital foundry thinking that is better to play Forbidden West in graphics mode because of the lack in image in the performance mode, I am really getting worried about the power of this new consoles.

Dont get me wrong, the games nowadays are beautiful for me, but honestly, apart from that demo of hellblade 2 ( that looks clearly a 30fps game for me), I am really not seeing some really new rendering revolution, apart from the so hyped ray tracing, that justifies so many restrictions for this games running in 60fps with the visuals of the graphics mode.

I am not a technical guy so, I honestly don’t know what can really be achieved in this new consoles but seeing amazing technical wizards developers like Guerrilla Games, Playground Games, Insomniac and some others having to make sacrifices to make his games run in 60fps is a little worrying in my opinion.

I think I will be totally ok if the games could have graphics mode with ray tracing/30fps and the performance mode being 60fps without ray tracing but with the exactly same other graphical features of the graphics mode but that isn’t happening.

I would love to read more of the more technical guys here of the forum about this.
This machines are really already being pushed to its limits that 60fps is not achievable with the visuals of the Horizon Forbidden West and Forza Horizon 5 in his graphics mode for exemple?

Early gen, a lot of cross gen titles. Rest easy that there will be some bonkers shit hitting the consoles pretty soon. SSD will surprise people.
Then again, what are your expectations? These are 500$ machines and this barely buys a geforce nowadays.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

Let me introduce you to the gaming triangle:

The console GPUs are ~half as powerful as top-end RX6000 GPUs, which already seriously struggle at RT, so compromises will have to be made throughout the generation. Like someone already said - soon enough the PS5/XSX will be a 1080p30 machines.

Umm HFW doesn’t have RT and still runs at 30fps and it’s cross gen!!

If people truly want the best, they need a PC.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

I don't think will have to worry about games becoming so demanding that the 60fps option will disappear, there is a huge delta in performance between 4k and 1080p, PS4 and Xbox One had few 60fps games mostly because of the weak CPU. This shouldn't be an issue this time around.

The same way that TAA gave a huge boost in IQ on the last gen, I believe that reconstruction techniques will continue to evolve, and native resolution will be less and less a requirement to a clean good-looking game. Those systems have a lot of power and flexibility to give to developers, give them time, and we will see some amazing things.

Just like how horizon forbidden west is running at 4K/60 on PS5?

 

[Louay]

Gameplay photo mode

Cross gen

you lost me at photo mode.

but anyway isn't better to compare PS4 and PS5 version HFW ?

 

[assurdum]

tbh i dont worry about this since im totally ok with sacrificing graphics for performance, but i can see how some people would be worried seeing how these consoles cost a lot and they're kind of underdelivering currently