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[SlimySnake]

Back in the early days of concurrent multiplatform development, one of the biggest reasons exclusives were so highly rated was polish. The single SKU development allowed developers to polish their games far more than multiplatform games from Ubisoft and EA. Nowadays with PC ports, mid gen refreshes and cross gen ports, even first party devs can be working on at least 4 versions of the same game. In Halo Infinite's case, it's literally five versions.

The outrage over PS exclusives going to PC attracted a lot of heat from people who accused fanboys of not wanting others to play their favorite game. Gate keeping so to speak, but lost in the mudslinging was the very basic fact; Multiplatform games simply take longer to make.

Case in point, Halo Infinite. A year long delay. 6 years of dev time. 750 employees. Shipping without coop. Delaying Forge I can understand. I think previous games shipped without forge, but not including campaign coop at launch is simply unacceptable, and you have to wonder if making the game for FIVE platforms caused the team to miss their deadlines. After all, Bungie only made Halo for 1 Xbox console at a time. Let alone 5.

With Horizon, it's 3 versions, but they did develop and support the PC version of Horizon themselves so they concurrently worked on 4 games during these past five years. The port was shipped in a poor state and it took them 6 months to fix all the bugs. And had to put out a statement saying they wont be fixing anymore bugs. Much like Cyperpunk. Who is to say that PC version did not cause this delay? After all, just like Halo Infinite, it's a last gen game. It's not a new IP, but a sequel. It doesn't seem to be a complete reboot like God of War. And yet, it's taken 5 years to make. In the 4 year span from 2009 to 2013, GG shipped KZ2, KZ3 and KZ Shadowfall. 343i took 3 years to make Halo 4. 3 more for Halo 5. These are not inefficient studios. They just had one console and one SKU to worry about back then.

We have all seen that picture of around 50 women at 343i posted here as if 50 out of 750 developers are to be blamed for Halo's dated graphics, delays and lack of coop at launch. But I think we need to take into account the effects of multiplatform development, and put the blame where it lies... on the suits behind the scenes who are willing to delay games, give devs more work and hold back their vision for a few million dollars.

 

[Warnen]

I blame fans, expecting the impossible with shit like COVID going on.

 

[MrS]

It can't be a delay if they never announced a release date.

 

[GuinGuin]

A bit of a ramble. It was delayed because they refuse to force crunch on their team. The thing must be nearly complete but they want to make it the polished experience you're asking for.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

You left out the biggest reason for these games delay...I don't really have to say it cause everyone knows what it is. Only shut the US down for months. And games shipping in parts seem to be the new norm. I mean ghost of tsushima shipped later with its multiplayer. Shoot even RDR2 did and the original GTAV...so It's not out of the norm even tho I don't love it.

 

[Nezzeroth]

No one is to blame. Delays happen, and they are big projects.

 

[reksveks]

It can't be a delay if they never announced a release date.

They gave a release year though so it's still a delay.

 

[reksveks]

I am very confused by the takeaway, multiplatform games are bad?

There are a number of multiplatform games that don't get delayed

 

[kretos]

"cyberpunk 2077 shitshow flashbacks"

yeah i'm fine with the delay

 

[SlimySnake]

You left out the biggest reason for these games delay...I don't really have to say it cause everyone knows what it is. Only shut the US down for months. And games shipping in parts seem to be the new norm. I mean ghost of tsushima shipped later with its multiplayer. Shoot even RDR2 did and the original GTAV...so It's not out of the norm even tho I don't love it.

GG is in Netherlands.

 

[CamHostage]

Past-gen was not the reason why Horizon: Forbidden West or Halo Infinite were delayed.

I'd be surprised if past-gen (or even PC, although PC is a lot of SKUs to test) factored in much at all to either delay. It does ultimately take some work and time to get different versions of a product done, but you can put people on that; it shouldn't hold up the main production, and worst comes to worst, you can split the releases (if you could somehow re-orientate the schedule in a way that bought you enough extra time on the main version) since they're not in the same box.

With scaling-oriented platforms, assuming you have the general tech hurdles worked out ahead of time and your engine can produce for both, most of the complex work is done in the process of deciding the implementation and features, and the time-consuming part of a port is just all the ticky-tacky bits and the checking/QA and specific optimization and asset reprocessing and modifying incompatibilities.

I mean, come on, you saw Halo. Did that look ready to ship to you?

 

[SlimySnake]

I am very confused by the takeaway, multiplatform games are bad?

There are a number of multiplatform games that don't get delayed

That's because MP games have thousands of devs working on those CoD and AC games. That's what you need to get 4-5 versions of games out without delays. These first party devs have 300-400 devs max. Halo is at 750 and thats still less than what Bungie needed for Destiny. 800 plus two Activision studios.

Activision is now having every single studio they own work on CoD. Treyarch, Infinity Ward, Sledgehammer on 3 year dev cycles isnt enough. They literally need everyone. That's what you need to ship mp games on time, and Sony and MS have clearly no invested in it which leaves devs with more work, more stress and thats how you get delays and 5 year dev cycles for last gen sequels.

 

[LazyParrot]

Why can there only be two reasons, and why does it have to be the same one for both games?

 

[Gaelyon]

Not delaying enough give disaster release like Cyberpunk's.
Delaying the release is a good thing as long as the game is in good shape when available. If GG decide to delay i trust them it's for the better.
Honestly i don't get why delaying a release is a bad thing in general ? The game would be much worse without so ...

 

[elliot5]

It's the studios fault. I don't really blame them much either, but between the two options it's more on the studio. The target platforms were identified and work began with those in mind. The game design and technical challenges should meet those requirements. Obviously it would be easier to cut the last gen loose, but it comes down to the labor and timelines met by the studios and leadership. External forces like covid and working from home on games are extremely challenging for creative, collaborative efforts like games.

 

[HTK]

I don't mind delays at all, but I also think companies shouldn't jump the gun on revealing release dates they are not 100% sure of.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Thread title is bad. I thought the good Horizon got delayed.

 

[Danjin44]

Sometimes.....

 

[sncvsrtoip]

funnier when you see data sales like hades 70% ps5 23% ps4, Ghost of Tsushima: Director's Cut 91% ps5 9% ps4

 

[reksveks]

That's because MP games have thousands of devs working on those CoD and AC games. That's what you need to get 4-5 versions of games out without delays. These first party devs have 300-400 devs max. Halo is at 750 and thats still less than what Bungie needed for Destiny. 800 plus two Activision studios.

So it's about resourcing correctly for your multiplatform development, something that both 343 and GG could have done better.

I think the main issue is 343i failing to get to grips with the engine and also the scope of the gaming changing.

 

[iHaunter]

Blame? Why would I blame anyone? I'm not 12 and can wait for a VIDEO GAME to be made. It's a lot of work.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's PURE greed. Maybe it's for the best, but greed none the less.

 

[SlimySnake]

funnier when you see data sales like hades 70% ps5 23% ps4, Ghost of Tsushima: Director's Cut 91% ps5 9% ps4

Yep, I called this a year ago. We had the numbers from Watch Dogs last gen selling 70% of its copies on next gen consoles after launching just 6 months after launch, and MGSV which launched 1.5 years after launch and had a 95-5% split. So for 5% of users, Konami delayed and held back a game for 95% of its consumers.

 

[Captain Toad]

Horizon was always "hopefully 2021". It's coming out Feb 22. Not that massive of a delay.

Halo was supposed to be a Series X launch title. It's over a full year delay.

Even after all that, Horizon still comes out only two months after Halo Infinite.

 

[martino]

you have no proof or idea of what you claim and man-child impatience or rant coupled to kunning kruger effect of how this media is working is the worst way to look into this.
always same few same people
again i will say this : you really need emotion control training.
each time there is a big announcement or event you go all over the board one way or the other.

 

[Snake29]

1 game was supposed to be a launch title and is still not finished when it's launched. It was in a dev hell for sure.

The other one is coming 2 months after it's "original" launch year.

 

[AmuroChan]

FW started out as a PS4 game. So I don't think you can blame Sony too much that they're making a PS4 and PS5 version. Halo's delay is due to management issues, not because the game is cross-platform. They lost their creative director mid-cycle. There's no way that didn't impact the development timeline.

 

[TonyK]

As Miyamoto said: "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game like Cyberpunk 2077 can suck my dick."

 

[SlimySnake]

Why can there only be two reasons, and why does it have to be the same one for both games?

That's just the poll. The thread is open for discussion. What reason do you feel cost the delay?

So it's about resourcing correctly for your multiplatform development, something that both 343 and GG could have done better.

I think the main issue is 343i failing to get to grips with the engine and also the scope of the gaming changing.

343 and GG have a set budget. They rely on Phil Spencer and Jim Ryan to give them the proper resources. Or rather Matt Booty and Herman Hurst. Clearly, they didnt knowing full well that the games had to be on next gen consoles. You cannot expect 300 devs to ship a game on three consoles on time while simultaneously developing a PC port which they ended up shipping in a disastrous state and spent another six months fixing it.

343i spent years on fixing the Master Chief Collection. Years. Why are they the ones making that collection anyway when there are so many other porting studios around? MS had Bluepoint make the Titanfall 360 port and Nixxes make the Rise of Tomb Raider 360 port leaving Respawn and Crystal Dynamics focused on 1 SKU. Both launched on time.

Every game has challenges. It could the engine. It could be the scope. But we are talking big picture here. 5 and 7 years for last gen sequels is emblematic of something more than just issues with engines. 7 years is literally an entire gen and 5 years is longer than the Wii U and the OG Xbox were on the market.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Back in the early days of concurrent multiplatform development, one of the biggest reasons exclusives were so highly rated was polish. The single SKU development allowed developers to polish their games far more than multiplatform games from Ubisoft and EA. Nowadays with PC ports, mid gen refreshes and cross gen ports, even first party devs can be working on at least 4 versions of the same game. In Halo Infinite's case, it's literally five versions.

The outrage over PS exclusives going to PC attracted a lot of heat from people who accused fanboys of not wanting others to play their favorite game. Gate keeping so to speak, but lost in the mudslinging was the very basic fact; Multiplatform games simply take longer to make.

Case in point, Halo Infinite. A year long delay. 6 years of dev time. 750 employees. Shipping without coop. Delaying Forge I can understand. I think previous games shipped without forge, but not including campaign coop at launch is simply unacceptable, and you have to wonder if making the game for FIVE platforms caused the team to miss their deadlines. After all, Bungie only made Halo for 1 Xbox console at a time. Let alone 5.

With Horizon, it's 3 versions, but they did develop and support the PC version of Horizon themselves so they concurrently worked on 4 games during these past five years. The port was shipped in a poor state and it took them 6 months to fix all the bugs. And had to put out a statement saying they wont be fixing anymore bugs. Much like Cyperpunk. Who is to say that PC version did not cause this delay? After all, just like Halo Infinite, it's a last gen game. It's not a new IP, but a sequel. It doesn't seem to be a complete reboot like God of War. And yet, it's taken 5 years to make. In the 4 year span from 2009 to 2013, GG shipped KZ2, KZ3 and KZ Shadowfall. 343i took 3 years to make Halo 4. 3 more for Halo 5. These are not inefficient studios. They just had one console and one SKU to worry about back then.

We have all seen that picture of around 50 women at 343i posted here as if 50 out of 750 developers are to be blamed for Halo's dated graphics, delays and lack of coop at launch. But I think we need to take into account the effects of multiplatform development, and put the blame where it lies... on the suits behind the scenes who are willing to delay games, give devs more work and hold back their vision for a few million dollars.

I don't necessarily align completely with all your reasoning but heck yes your conclusion is sound!

*fist bump*

Respek

 

[sainraja]

We're talking about video games here, right?

You can wait. It will be OKAY. No one is owed anything at any specific time frame. There are games you can play right now and there will be games you can play in the future. No need to be so impatient.

 

[reksveks]

343 and GG have a set budget. They rely on Phil Spencer and Jim Ryan to give them the proper resources. Or rather Matt Booty and Herman Hurst. Clearly, they didnt knowing full well that the games had to be on next gen consoles. You cannot expect 300 devs to ship a game on three consoles on time while simultaneously developing a PC port which they ended up shipping in a disastrous state and spent another six months fixing it.

343i spent years on fixing the Master Chief Collection. Years. Why are they the ones making that collection anyway when there are so many other porting studios around? MS had Bluepoint make the Titanfall 360 port and Nixxes make the Rise of Tomb Raider 360 port leaving Respawn and Crystal Dynamics focused on 1 SKU. Both launched on time.

Every game has challenges. It could the engine. It could be the scope. But we are talking big picture here. 5 and 7 years for last gen sequels is emblematic of something more than just issues with engines. 7 years is literally an entire gen and 5 years is longer than the Wii U and the OG Xbox were on the market.

I don't know if I think the series x sku was a surprise to 343i. I haven't heard anything that suggest that the one s/x was the only console they were designing for.

I suspect that Microsoft doesn't want to or can't outsource pc ports, pc/xbox is an integral part of their distribution network so they don't want to have to allow a 3rd party to introduce a brand that might cause issues down the road especially for a live service game.

I do think horizon was always planned to be on Ps4. I don't know how their workflow changed once they had to account for the ps5.

 

[Astral Dog]

Videogames are more expensive to make than ever and take longer, plus covid has affected all the industry.

Multiplatform is fine as long as the project is designed for it (no Cyberpunk nonsense) if that were the case third parties wouldn't be able to release great games that run well on more than one system and thats silly

 

[CamHostage]

I don't mind delays at all, but I also think companies shouldn't jump the gun on revealing release dates they are not 100% sure of.

I don't think either Halo or Horizon ever had a date until they locked in a number? They had general timeframes (and Halo was assumed to be a launch title, can't remember if it was ever promised day-and-date?), but neither gave a solid point on a calendar to expect your package as far as I remember.

As far as jumping the gun on announcing dates... I guess so? I don't know, it's something to talk about and get heated over and post memes about on a message board, and of course it matters to the business and the scheduling of a competitive market, but unless people had specific reasons for needing a date to be a date (a Christmas present I guess matters,) does it really matter if dates shift? If the thing you can't have until it's done is never told to you how close it is to being done until it's pretty much done, is that worse than being told it'll probably be done one day and then sorry, it can't be done until a later day? Maybe Starfield or God of War Ragnarok won't release in 2022 (hypothetically speaking,) but they're trying hard to make that happen and they think they can hit it, so would you rather them not tell you anything, or are you better knowing today that it's probably in the next 12 months but later you find the wait will have been 16 months?

Like, I'm fucking gutted that I won't be playing Horizon this year, and I would have been gutted last year if I was expecting to play Halo last year, but I feel I was more informed when I knew something about what the designers were shooting for and I was along the ride for the delays; the alternative would have been having zero info and the ride would have been a freefall waiting for the parachute to open. Just "Here's Horizon/Halo... wait for it...", and then all of 2020 and all of 2021 would have gone by until yesterday that I found out when I could have expected either game.

 

[Chiggs]

I blame 343 for everything in life. They’re that bad.

 

[SafeOrAlone]

I blame fans, expecting the impossible with shit like COVID going on.

I will tell you why that is silly:

Sony announced these release dates in the middle of a pandemic.
They knew there were no guarantees.

It doesn't mean they should crunch or rush the game. What it means is they need to be more careful about announcing release dates. If this was a one time thing, no biggie. But it's actually rare for a Sony first party game to not be delayed multiple times. It's not the end of the world, but at some point, it comes across as deceptive.

 

[Warnen]

I will tell you why that is silly:

Sony announced these release dates in the middle of a pandemic.
They knew there were no guarantees.

It doesn't mean they should crunch or rush the game. What it means is they need to be more careful about announcing release dates. If this was a one time thing, no biggie. But it's actually rare for a Sony first party game to not be delayed multiple times. It's not the end of the world, but at some point, it comes across as deceptive.

just about every game since last of us 2 had been delayed multiple times

 

[M1chl]

As someone who was on team which made 1 PC version, 2 base console version and 2 premium console versions.

There are 2 (or 2.5) SDKs involved, most of the code is done in abstract, portable manner. Just the core functionality of the engine is done differently. Which are done in parallel.

However...

The roadblock is simple, if base consoles (or the lowest common denominator) sucks ass, you are spending time to downscale it, while keeping the game intact as much as you can.

Also QA takes a long time to test on each console. There are scripts so it test basic functionality, but if you are doing RPG, you have to test quest (especially if everything loads and unloads)

So yeah, I agree with the premise, to an extent.

Also there is currently in development switch version, which are suppose to run on Switch (instead of next-gen version which pains me very much), but motherfucker, that version is going to be another "impossible port", thus being terrible.

 

[SlimySnake]

I will tell you why that is silly:

Sony announced these release dates in the middle of a pandemic.
They knew there were no guarantees.

It doesn't mean they should crunch or rush the game. What it means is they need to be more careful about announcing release dates. If this was a one time thing, no biggie. But it's actually rare for a Sony first party game to not be delayed multiple times. It's not the end of the world, but at some point, it comes across as deceptive.

This. The pandemic has been around for over 1.5 years now. Horizon's 2021 date was announced 4 months into the pandemic. GoW was announced 7 months into the pandemic. They knew they were never going to be able to make those dates. GT7 had a 2021 release date as early as their launch ads.

Horizon being delayed into 2022 was a running joke here going as far back as last year. No one here believed it, but Sony kept everyone's hopes up.

 

[NahaNago]

Halo had problems even without the multiplatform perils. Horizon was just delayed for the ps4 port and covid supposedly. Microsoft has a halo studio problem.

 

[SlimySnake]

As someone who was on team which made 1 PC version, 2 base console version and 2 premium console versions.

There are 2 (or 2.5) SDKs involved, most of the code is done in abstract, portable manner. Just the core functionality of the engine is done differently. Which are done in parallel.

However...

The roadblock is simple, if base consoles (or the lowest common denominator) sucks ass, you are spending time to downscale it, while keeping the game intact as much as you can.

Also QA takes a long time to test on each console. There are scripts so it test basic functionality, but if you are doing RPG, you have to test quest (especially if everything loads and unloads)

So yeah, I agree with the premise, to an extent.

Also there is currently in development switch version, which are suppose to run on Switch (instead of next-gen version which pains me very much), but motherfucker, that version is going to be another "impossible port", thus being terrible.

Yep. The QA effort is huge. I dont develop games, but porting apps while quite easy between products is a pain to test, and if for some reason it's not a straight port, I find myself cutting multiple patches every time QA finds a bug which gets annoying really really fast.

 

[kikii]

It can't be a delay if they never announced a release date.

this ^^

 

[Raekwon26]

This sounds like a huge excuse.

 

[emivita]

FW delay is completely justified, while I can't really say the same about Halo Infinite. FW aims to be released as a complete and full-featured game on day 1, while Halo Infinite will be a GaaS, and even with the 1-year delay they're still going to release it in an incomplete state with a bunch of missing features.

 

[UniformDeliverance]

For what it's worth, coop in an open world game is a different technical challenge than previous halo games, where you would be teleported to your coop partner at every checkpoint to ensure both players were in the same play space. Not defending it.. But we don't know how much of the game has changed in the past year, perhaps enough that new coop problems emerged, and overcoming those coop problems were de-prioritized in favor of updating graphics and gameplay.

I don't think anyone is to blame. The games were delayed so that they can be the best products possible at launch. Greed would be launching in an incomplete state to get profits sooner, integrity is delaying a game until it's ready.

Did you all not experience Cyberpunk last year? I'm not happy that they got delayed, but if the alternative is another Cyberpunk launch? I can wait.

 

[Punished Miku]

I honestly don't think it's that big a deal to target multiple platforms at this point. The weakest games could look like TLOU2 if people wanted to optimize. We're long past the point of diminishing returns graphically.

Demon's Souls is the only true PS5 game I've played, and it was definitely neat. But I still play stuff on Switch all the time, and I honestly don't care that much. God of War and Horizon being sequels, they're basically going to be built off all the work of the previous games. I would expect a generational leap from new IP, not direct sequels. They're going to probably use the same engine and combat and almost everything from the previous games.

Halo is really a different case where the studio is just a trainwreck in general. Personally though, I think it's ludicrous to call it a failure just off a short delay in coop. If the game is a failure, it'll be because it sucks. The game will have the full campaign and base multiplayer at launch, with a clear roadmap for updates. That seems completely fine to me, but I'm not a Halo fanatic.

 

[CamHostage]

I suspect that Microsoft doesn't want to or can't outsource pc ports, pc/xbox is an integral part of their distribution network so they don't want to have to allow a 3rd party to introduce a brand that might cause issues down the road especially for a live service game.

Right, the Halo situation was a little bit different, because it's a cross-platform online multiplayer product. It has to keep parity in almost every feature and element (once the assets are adjusted) because people on five different boxes (Xbox One/S, Xbox One X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X & PC) must be able to dial in and play the same game together. (343 could have made specific concessions to the One or even low-spec PC version, ala Battlefield 2042 with its player-cappped/map-shrunk lesser versions, or they could have and could still make high-spec-only modes like a Super Forge with massively more landmass or ramped-up physics, but whatever components that are cross-plat needs to work for everybody.) You can get an outsource team to help port it and make the needed adjustments to get it to work (ala all the Switch ports by Panic Button,) but you can't just hand it over to somebody else and say, "OK, shove this thing on the old platform as best you can, and try to get it done by launch day", because the versions all need to be the same.

Horizon is a simpler case (AFAIK, unless a co-op multiplayer element is suddenly announced, which seems unlikely.) They could have just handed the PS4 version over to their new brothers at Nixxes and asked them to save the day by any means necessary IF the main version of the game was on track for Christmas.

Cyberpunk is a little bit of the latter, that they would have benefitted from farming out the downports and concentrated on just next-gen/high-spec, but in those cases, that would have been more for the benefit of the past-gen versions (where somebody would have made the painful but necessary cuts, instead of pretending that this impossible game engine worked well enough on struggling hardware.) The core version would have been whatever it was going to be, and we can see from the PC release (as well as all the developer rumors from before and after it shipped) that it just never was going to be ready. (The weird thing about that though is, CDR still has not shipped a "next-gen native" version of Cyberpunk for PS5/XSX, so what would that have actually been? An alternative port-over of whatever their past-gen version was when they would have made the break? A port-across of the PC version? A "native" version for next-gen that was just as incomplete at launch as everything else but in its own ways of failing different from the past-gen or PC versions?)

 

[kyliethicc]

1 - This is all normal. Lots of games are delayed and it's always been like this for many years.

2 - The pandemic fucked up the game development industry and is causing extra delays on top of what's usual.

 

[M1chl]

Yep. The QA effort is huge. I dont develop games, but porting apps while quite easy between products is a pain to test, and if for some reason it's not a straight port, I find myself cutting multiple patches every time QA finds a bug which gets annoying really really fast.

Yeah, especially if underlying streaming of data from slow ass HDD or/and weird ESRAM+DDR3 configuration of RAM it cause huge issues with bugged quests and so on. It's not that the scripted sequence is wrong, it's just that if all important components are not in memory (let's say path to quest, list of options to talk, etc, etc) at the time which they should it does random things and it's really impossible to QA before launch, because QA would then be bigger than the whole dev team. So like this many QA with coding ability become sort of devs, that's what happened to me and I was in core team which actually make the base console version run well.

Where another sort of "issue" arose (past of arise?) because you are doing general algorithm or piece of code, which manage memory at allowed footprint and you take the lowest performing version (X1S) and when that version run, you copy that logic over to another POS console and you hope that it runs also. But both of those solutions are 90% same and 10% is duck tape which ensure that same logic works.

However all in all I believe that result is still commendable. It was just 12 people doing this. You simply cannot have some higher logic which works totally differently, because then even higher level wouldn't work. 3rdp party engine should handle all of this well, if it's not Cryengine, but sadly it was Cryengine, which was due to situation over at Crytek in pretty sad state.

But when it was negotiated, company was ensure that everything is ok and nothing is problem with what we are doing. Well it appears, that it's not exactly designed fort game of this scale.

Bottom line:

This gen I believe there are going to be less issues, but man we should abandon those old-ass console. They have a lot of issues with slow CPUs, which suppose to be boosted by GP GPU ACE units, but programming of those units is unreasonably complex (or rather lengthy) and it leads to heterogeneous codebase (CPU instruction and GPU instruction running in parallel for CPU-like code) and it's a mess to debug it. So yeah, MS have better solution i believe because they can run cloud versions on X1 and thus not do native X1 versions.

But Halo...that's another story. And I believe that it's not complexity of many platforms, it's more incompetence of the team. It's still fucking shooter, which in complexity is nowhere near RPGs and games like that. Like from the perspective of debugging, etc.

As someone might not know, the game in question is Kingdom Come. I loved to share my thoughts on Switch development, but dem Nintendo ninjas. Their NDA is strict.

 

[Magnific0giganticus]

Horizon FW Delay = Covid
Halo Infinite Delay = Incompetence>bad management>several changes of key staff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>covid