xellos2099alpha
Member
to be fair, infinite is like a year delay. And the trailer last year for infintie was horrible
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Let's talk about that Horizon delay. The perils of multiplatform dev and yes, Halo.
- Thread starter SlimySnake
- Start date
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Damn, I didnt know you worked on Kingdom Come Deliverence. Thats a gorgeous looking game. Too bad the combat was lame (no offense intended) because as a graphics whore I really wanted to keep playing.
I think any time any game takes more than 4 years to make, it's in development hell. These same studios used to put out games every 2-3 years and now take 5 years even triple the team size? Yes, the devs are at fault. But porting them 5 times over does not help either.
GuinGuin
Banned
Microsoft, Sony and even Nintendo can't keep their systems on the shelves. The reason exclusives exist is to sell consoles so they can sell more third party games to people who own those consoles. With that being the case there is no rush to release exclusives as the bigger they can get their install bases the more copies of the games they can sell once they do come out. If consoles were collecting dust on shelves I think you would have seen a much harder push to get new exclusives out quickly.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Well the combat was suppose to be way more ambitious with better animation, but the issue is that these animation is expensive with everything else on the screen, obviously it would be same but better. However the animation was dumbed down because it was unrealistic, that character would be 1GB+ data of procedural/baked in animation and some more complex system was too much of collisions etc. Even for that time PCs, time to develop it, integrate it and so on. If no one else is doing it, it's an issue, that you have no resort to go to, for a advice and stuff like that. Support teams (including people from Nixxes, no less) were telling us that our system is never going to work in mainstream game, but thankfully a lot of mafia money (and not that Mafia, just coal mafia money...long story) decide that it should be done as it was envisioned and not another dark souls like system... which I am sure it would get way bigger mainstream appeal.
So yeah development is hard and I and team are happy that it's more of cult hit, which is not going to fade as the times goes on, but people will go back to it. And yeah the sales were not strong in the beginning, but boy the game has legs. Obviously GamePass and PS Now helped with selling those DLC and general exposure.
I am proud for being there, helping and have a stories, how you turn few enthusiasts with vision to final product. It could crash and burn, but it didn't. However bugs were there and offices, QA team and half-devs like me, were in fire after release.
But at that time my drinking habit makes my health to tank and I had to leave while keeping contact to the team and being in "covid mode" before even covid hits. I am now just a person who does CUDA and general nVidia compute so I am helping in this manner. But I hate it, not going to lie. Deep Silver can suck my ass. Next-gen version would shine far brighter that the current version as good as it is. Fuck, I think it's masterpiece all things consider.
blacktout
Member
This. If a game is delayed right now, I think the default explanations should be "COVID fucked up the development timeline" and "AAA games from all developers are increasingly suffering from project bloat as assets and features become more and more time and resource intensive to create." Targeting multiple platforms may be exacerbating these problems, but note that even Nintendo's most ambitious projects (BOTW 2, MP 4, Bayonetta 3, who knows how many unannounced projects) are also taking a long ass time to come out and those are all targeting a single relatively low spec platform. This is just where the entire industry is at right now, unfortunately.
You can certainly blame Microsoft and Sony for announcing target release dates/windows that were too ambitious, but Nintendo caught hell last year for taking the opposite approach and just refusing to talk about projects until they had a firm idea of when they would release. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Messaging is hard when you only have bad news.
Yoboman
Member
I honestly doubt this
They may have started some work on PS4 dev kits out of necessity but I think it was always going to be a PS5 game and the PS4 decision was made later when Sony realised they wouldn't have enough PS5 units ready to sell what these games need to even at 100% attach rate
Its no coincidence that PS4 games got added back to these games well after announcement. Sony have 10-20 million sellers that they dont want to lose ground on unit sales from
yurinka
Member
Pretty much this.
I think nobody needs to be blamed in the Horizon case since it's only a 2-3 months delay and can be assigned to covid. A very small delay on a game that looks great and comes from a team who delivered many great games with no big issues or delays. Sony also deliver every year a good and constant amount of 1st and 2nd party games that in the recent years have been selling better than ever, get great reviews and many of them are GOTY winners or candidates.
It's impossible.
Horizon 2 development started in 2017, when the PS5 tech didn't exist and didn't even have its tech specs. They got the first specs during 2018 and didn't get the first devkits until 2019 and not sure if the final devkits and specs were delivered in 2019 or 2020.
So it's impossible they could have most of their crew without working during at least a couple of years and to design their game for an imaginary machine that they didn't know how it was going to be because it was going to use some CPU, GPU, SSD and I/O system that back then didn't exist.
So pretty much it has been developed as a PS4 game during at least 2 or 3 years and after that they started to make it prettier for PS5 at the same time they were completing its development.
Before launch Sony already knew that PS5 wasn't going to sell way faster than the PS4, so in its first year there wasn't going to have a huge userbase there. So to release a big ass AAA like this one only on PS5 would have been pretty much a suicide, specially knowing back in 2020 and probably in 2019 they had almost 100M MAU on PS4. It was too clear that the -originally planned as 1st (and pretty likely at least 2nd) year big ass AAA exclusives- needed to be crosgen. Jimbo went into detail about this in the 'we belive in generations' interview when he explained why they were going to keep supporting PS4 during at least 2 or 3 years after PS5 release.
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Dream-Knife
Banned
Let's not act like porting a game from playstation to PC is a monumental task. Sony went to PC architecture to make this much easier. It isn't CELL.
Javthusiast
Banned
We all need to come together as people and not announce any dates until the games are fully finished and ready to launch in 3 weeks.
Aenima
Member
Mostly Covid with devs working from home. Making Horizon crossgen might had some extra work to the dev team so Jimbo is not free of charge, but games get delayed all the time. Its a small delay though dunno why ppl making a big deal out of it. Almost all games announced to this year got delayed.
Rather see a game delayed than rushing and get another Cyberbugs
Rather see a game delayed than rushing and get another Cyberbugs
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Aenima
Member
Sony is not porting Horizon 2 to PC yet. If it happens will be in something like 2 years and Sony aquired a studio to make ports so that dosent affect any PS games made by the main studios.
Captain Toad
Banned
Except that plenty of delayed games are huge disappointments. In fact, delays often indicate troubled development and are a red flag.
Now, a delayed MIYAMOTO game... that's a different story.
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
Lets face it...the whole development was a trainwreck from begin to end....
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
Thats not true for HZD FW i can tell you that.
Yoboman
Member
Pre production would last quite a while and they also had work on Frozen Wilds so the majority of the team would have been working on that while Horizon 2 was in the early stages
They wouldn't need a running alpha prototype on actual dev kits for years into production.
Guerrilla would also have been one of the first to receive spec goals and dev kits for PS5, and would also have been one of the devs Cerny worked with on the specs for PS5. They could easily work on PC as well while dev kit delivery was being organised. Probably why they ended up porting Horizon to PC with a lot of the work flow being done on PC as well
PS5 was always the goal which is why the asset pipeline is so much higher in Horizon 2. We will see what the PS4 version looks like though, if it really does compare well without major cut backs to resolution compared to Horizon 1 or cut backs in assets and quality then you may be right
Captain Toad
Banned
True, but I think it would have still been good releasing in November. We've seen enough gameplay already to believe that. But, yeah, a few months of polish can't hurt. I much prefer that to the model of, "release it now and finish it via patches over the next several months".
Pejo
Member
As someone who has transitioned to a full time remote role in my company over the past year, what is it about game development that makes it so difficult? I will admit that the logistics at the beginning were a little tough to figure out, but a year+ later I don't see any reason at all why working remotely should negatively influence development time or quality. This COVID excuse sounds just like that, an excuse. Even if companies are super careful about leaks and what makes it out of the office, you have remote desktop solutions and stuff like WVD that could make it convenient and possible.
I place the blame entirely on devs and their inability to hire properly and manage their employees.
I place the blame entirely on devs and their inability to hire properly and manage their employees.
Balducci30
Member
I’d rather they delay halo to when it comes with co op but that’s me - I can wait for a release.
Yoboman
Member
Some things could work faster depending on the employee. But other things that require quick meetings, just getting up and speaking with somebody or feedback can be slowed down by WFH environments. Game development can also require a lot of big downloads and uploads of files which is a lot slower from home. Processes like play testing have to be redesigned completely
Guilty_AI
Member
The transition period is another problem. There's all the planning and logistics behind it that needs to be made beforehand, then theres also the workers need to adapt to the new environment and tools, assuming they'll work properly considering how last minute everything needed to be made.
To give an example, i know someone who switched to home-office due to covid and she was constantly having problems with the tools and apps that were given to her to do her work. They even cycled through different solutions multiple times, in some cases even causing more problems than making things more simple.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
This. Equating Horizon's two-month delay (when GG couldn't finish mo-cap because Netherland went into lockdown) to Halo Infinite's one-year delay (because of incomplete content and critical feedback) doesn't make sense.
Pejo
Member
The interactivity in a creative environment is a good point. I rarely have to get creative at my job, and I like the extra layer of Teams/Zoom chats to buy me a little space. Then again, I'm in a support role, not a development role.
Well your second point is why I brought up remote workstations or WVD (Windows Virtual Desktops, now Azure Virtual Desktop I guess). Keep all your heavy lifting equipment and high bandwidth requirement machines either in the cloud or on prem for your office, then just VPN in and work remotely. It removes the performance/connectivity part of the equation 95% of the time. We had remote users that couldn't work with our custom applications from outside the network, even on VPN, so we just published them internally as apps on a WVD portal, and off they go.
Point is, the infrastructure and solutions are out there. If devs aren't factoring that in to the budget and taking advantage of it, that's short sighted.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
I completely agree. Also comparing a multi-platform, multi-player online game with single player, offline title, only on two consoles doesn't make much sense either. Scope of those games is different and circumstances of development are also different. Hopefully both titles live up to the hype.
yurinka
Member
Seems a pretty much direct sequel that pretty much continues with pretty similar stuff. So they could have started preproduction even before completing the first game, or as usual to rehash cut stuff from the previous game.
It's confirmed they started it (not sure if production or preproduction) in 2017, I assume that while they had another team working on Frozen Wilds and another one supporting Kojipro with DS.
No, but they would need to know its capabilities and tech specs to make the engine, to its size, and the amount of stuff they can put in screen/memory and the streaming speed, the amount of detail (so polycount/textures size/etc) they could put on characters and environment, the type of lighting and shadows, which new techniques will they be able to use (raytracing, 3D audio, maybe global illumination, etc) and which ones aren't needed anymore (normal mapping and similar, maybe baked lighting, etc)... a lot of very important things many level designers, artists, engine programmers, tool programmers and so on need to start working if they remotely want to take advantage of the new machine.
If they start without all these things, what they would do is what I said: basically a PS4 game ready to at some point use some bigger textures, resolution and some extra secondary stuff to make it look prettier but without taking full advantage of it.
Pretty likely yes, their top AAA devs and specially the other 1st & 2nd party teams who were planning to release a year 1 PS5 games. And in addition to this, many of their feedback and suggestions would have been used by Cerny to design the hardware and ask AMD for certain customizations / optimizations.
Back then there weren't PCs like PS5. There was no Zen 2, no RDNA2, no SSDs of this speed, no memory management and other I/O stuff that allows what PS5 do. They had PCs more powerful than a PS4, but not as PS5 and missing many things.
Game assets are originally made in a higher polycount and texture quality, with more detail than the one you see in gameplay, or even in cinematics. And from that it gets toned down manually to a size that the console can handle it properly.
Seems that in the future with engines like UE5 they will be able to skip this process and the engine will tone down automatically what needed, freeing a lot of job currently made by artists. But until that arrives (not sure if Guerrilla will achieve it first) they had to do the stuff manually.
I'm pretty sure Horizon 2 will look in PS4 quite better than Horizon 1. And that there will be an obvious improvement in PS5, but the PS4 will still feel great because the game was started and designed with PS4 in mind. They couldn't start and design it around PS5 to optimize it for it because when they did it they were years away from PS5.
Guilty_AI
Member
Its not like virtual desktops are free of hassle either.
Using the example from the person i used before, they switched to virtual desktops just recently and right off the bat she was facing issues like PCs already being in use by other workers or having to call people there to turn on A or B machine so she could work there. Thats not accounting for internet connection either which can slow down the proccess depending on where you live or the provider.
Anyway, you could attribute that to poor logistics but its not like every company out there is capable of providing the most optimal solution right off the bat.
sendit
Member
Disagree. Time is the single most important metric in life. Why wouldn't people be upset?
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Thirty7ven
Banned
It’s two months.
EverythingsOverrated
Member
I have no problem with games being delayed. It sucks when a game you were planning on playing the shit out of gets pushed back a few months before release, but there's more than enough great games out there to play to keep me busy.
Having said that, I do have more faith in Guerilla than I do 343.
Having said that, I do have more faith in Guerilla than I do 343.
I heard that the combat was pretty good in that game. In Schreier's new book he talks about how that team had a separate group called the Combat Pit where they focused soley on combat. Been meaning to play the game for a while, the MMO they were working on sounded epic. Anyone play the remaster?
AmuroChan
Member
It's your right to doubt them, but based on everything I've read and heard, internally FW was always slated to be a cross-platform game. They don't mention the last-gen versions in marketing because they want you to buy the PS5 version.
ANIMAL1975
Member
I blame Konami they can't keep getting away with it.
New jiggle physics inbound?
ReBurn
Gold Member
They've been on x64 architecture since PS4 without porting to PC, their console operating systems are customized Linux based and games on the platform utilize custom tools and interfaces to make development on their platform easier. So I also won't act like it's as easy as pushing the "compile for PC" button.
sainraja
Member
Yes, but not when it comes to video games....I think people can definitely wait.
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ZehDon
Gold Member
The poll doesn't really make sense, because the answer to both questions is different answers - it's not a one size fits all.
Guerrilla don't typically make shoddy games. The gameplay may not always be industry leading, but you simply can't knock the technical and artistic talent GG puts out with every release. The delay is likely a result of them not wanting to release the game until its ready, while dealing with COVID, and dealing with work from home where crunch is simply not as feasible. They don't want to compromise on their goals.
Halo Infinite, on the other hands, was delayed because 343i simply aren't that good at what they do. Every release they've done has had major problems that's taken months - or even years - to correct. Credit where it's due - they have typically corrected the issues, and are getting better at communicating with their community. But it keeps happening none the less. With Infinite, every soul on Earth knew from the moment the gameplay footage last year started that it wasn't ready for prime time. The delay isn't because of the fans, or COVID, or working from home. The delay is because Halo Infinite simply wasn't finished and 343i tried to launch it anyway.
Guerrilla don't typically make shoddy games. The gameplay may not always be industry leading, but you simply can't knock the technical and artistic talent GG puts out with every release. The delay is likely a result of them not wanting to release the game until its ready, while dealing with COVID, and dealing with work from home where crunch is simply not as feasible. They don't want to compromise on their goals.
Halo Infinite, on the other hands, was delayed because 343i simply aren't that good at what they do. Every release they've done has had major problems that's taken months - or even years - to correct. Credit where it's due - they have typically corrected the issues, and are getting better at communicating with their community. But it keeps happening none the less. With Infinite, every soul on Earth knew from the moment the gameplay footage last year started that it wasn't ready for prime time. The delay isn't because of the fans, or COVID, or working from home. The delay is because Halo Infinite simply wasn't finished and 343i tried to launch it anyway.
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LordOfChaos
Member
What proof do you have that Phil Spencer or Jim Ryan pushed for these to be multiplats as opposed to letting the developer choose?
MatrixReloaded101
Member
I think Horizon got delayed because of their last minute decision to put it on PS4, this was the same reason RE8 got delayed. I think this is also why we have not seen anything for the new God of War because that will also now be a cross gen game.
Halo infinite is another story, I think the new engine and COVID really did a number on the development of the game. It was suppose to be out last year and now its coming in the last month of this year with things still missing.
Halo infinite is another story, I think the new engine and COVID really did a number on the development of the game. It was suppose to be out last year and now its coming in the last month of this year with things still missing.
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Shmunter
Member
I doubt it’s last minute for Horizon, game looks very ps4, at least to me.
God of War, yeah - nothing shown because it’s likely getting significantly re-scoped to fit last gen hardware. Back to the drawing board kind of scenario.
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MatrixReloaded101
Member
This might be the case, this way they can charge $70 for the "directors cut" edition that will be exclusive to PS5 like 6-12 months after the original game gets released
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kyliethicc
Member
Both games were always going to be on PS4 from the very beginning of development.This might be the case, this way they can charge $70 for the "directors cut" edition that will be exclusive to PS5 like 6-12 months after the original game gets released
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
I'm not sure if the multiplatform nature is the root issue. COVID is a big one for both 343 and H:FW. Mismanegement in general is a big issue with 343 and has always been an issue.
I don't like that these cross platform games continue to come out, but the reality is that games are too big to fail these days so I expect this to only increase going forward. It probably will be mid-generation before true exclusives come out as a norm, sadly.
I don't like that these cross platform games continue to come out, but the reality is that games are too big to fail these days so I expect this to only increase going forward. It probably will be mid-generation before true exclusives come out as a norm, sadly.
Shmunter
Member
You could be right, but I’m not so sure about GOW. There was a next gen only push at one stage as evidenced by Ratchet. Something changed midway. Gran Turismo is rumoured to have been mandated for cross gen late in the dev cycle, was aimed at PS5 originally.
Who knows what’s true or not anymore with these clowns.
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Aenima
Member
D
Deleted member 471617
Unconfirmed Member
Personally, both delays were for the better. Halo infinite obviously needed it and considering that it's rumored that Halo infinite was setup like a Ubisoft open world game for some odd reason, Staten needed to come in and fix all that shit which doesn't happen overnight. While there's no chance in hell that it gets delayed again, I thought that it should have been delayed to late March. But it is what it is. As long as the campaign is great for me when I play it, that's all I care about.
For Horizon, the Netherlands have been in a strict lock down since last December so it being delayed from Fall/Holiday 2021 to February 18th, 2022 if anything, is actually a shocker because it could have easily gone past that date.
Both Microsoft and Sony are to blame. Microsoft knew since pre-Covid, that Halo Infinite wasn't making Holiday 2020 and Sony has known for a bout a year that Horizon 2 wasn't making 2021 but yet, both kept acting as if neither were getting delayed but yet both were. Here's the best part, Sony will continue to do the same shit with God of War Ragnarok despite it most likely being delayed to 2023.
Delays happened pre-Covid. Sony delayed nearly every major exclusive at least once during the PS4 generation. Microsoft delayed a few games during the Xbox One generation. Third party publishers delayed a shit ton of games. And all of them will delay games even more due to Covid so I don't know why anyone is surprised or upset.
Best of all, since I will have Far Cry 6, Forza Horizon 5 campaign, Halo Infinite campaign and Dying Light 2 for Oct/Nov/Dec, Horizon 2 getting delayed to February 18th, 2022 worked out perfectly for me. The earliest game I had previously was Stalker 2 and that's late April so barring another game I want to play in early March, Horizon 2 being where it is right now couldn't have worked out any better for me.
For Horizon, the Netherlands have been in a strict lock down since last December so it being delayed from Fall/Holiday 2021 to February 18th, 2022 if anything, is actually a shocker because it could have easily gone past that date.
Both Microsoft and Sony are to blame. Microsoft knew since pre-Covid, that Halo Infinite wasn't making Holiday 2020 and Sony has known for a bout a year that Horizon 2 wasn't making 2021 but yet, both kept acting as if neither were getting delayed but yet both were. Here's the best part, Sony will continue to do the same shit with God of War Ragnarok despite it most likely being delayed to 2023.
Delays happened pre-Covid. Sony delayed nearly every major exclusive at least once during the PS4 generation. Microsoft delayed a few games during the Xbox One generation. Third party publishers delayed a shit ton of games. And all of them will delay games even more due to Covid so I don't know why anyone is surprised or upset.
Best of all, since I will have Far Cry 6, Forza Horizon 5 campaign, Halo Infinite campaign and Dying Light 2 for Oct/Nov/Dec, Horizon 2 getting delayed to February 18th, 2022 worked out perfectly for me. The earliest game I had previously was Stalker 2 and that's late April so barring another game I want to play in early March, Horizon 2 being where it is right now couldn't have worked out any better for me.
kyliethicc
Member
Look at their choices for cross gen games and next gen only games. Its pretty clear.
All of these games, (except for Sackboy), have the potential to sell 5-10+ million units lifetime on PS4+5:
- God of War 2, Horizon 2, Spidey Miles, Sackboy
- GT7, MLB, Ghost Director's Cut
- TLOU2 Director's Cut (probably) & TLOU2 online
Thats a lot of extra money they wouldn't leave on the table. (And Sackboy was just a PS4 game anyways.)
While I bet Sony would happy if any of these games sell like 2-3 million units lifetime:
- Ratchet, Returnal, Demon's Souls
- Death Stranding Director's Cut
- Astro, Destruction Allstars
Like they chose to publicly share that Returnal had sold ~ 600k units ... meaning they are happy with that number. If they weren't, they wouldn't have said anything. Every specific sales number Sony puts out for a game is basically a PR statement. They only do it if they think it helps them look good.
A big game like God of War 2 was always gonna be a PS4 game. But the GT7 thing does seem like an outlier tho, it was definitely marketed as PS5 only. So clearly if it is cross gen, it was a reaction to the limited PS5 stock situation, and likely also a choice to increase sales to offset the added development costs of a year long (or longer) delay. That game was clearly supposed to be out by now, but as they said, covid happened.
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Shmunter
Member
Trust me, none of that is lost on me, it makes perfect sense. The big bucks are in the install base.
However, I consider a 1st party as an outlier to all this. They carry the burden of creating and nurturing a forward moving eco system. Software loss leaders, just like the console hardware itself needs to exist to plant the seed for tomorrow at the cost today.
I expect that tension existed at Sony, and Ryan being a money man first, tilted the scale towards immediate gain, while carrying the bravado of being able to deal with what happens later to still be under his control.
Once the PS5 is readily available on shelves, these games will sell. We can see that PS5 games rarely see meaningful discounts, they have plenty of steam left going forward.
Orion2
Banned
100% Jim is to blame for Horizon delay, Guerrilla devs had to work months to fix the PC version of Horizon and work to make sure the PS4 version is up to par at the same time, if this game was freed as a PS5 only and solo studio project, we would've had it this year and better graphics/mechanics, have fun expectiong more of this in the future, because going forward, PC development will be taken into consideration from the ground up, affecting console development
Shmunter
Member
The only hope on the pc development is that it is handled by a seperate studio after the fact - a port in effect, leaving the creative leads to concentrate on the console.