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[rakhir]

Yeah that Sith rule always seemed odd, especially considering how many 'Sith' there are in the fiction at any given time. But I suppose it could mean multiple things... That you can't have one without the other. Also who is to say these new guys are actual 'Sith'? I mean you can be a dark jedi doing tons of evil shit, but that doesn't inherently make you 'Sith'. It's kind of its own specific special thing. There's a title, there are traditions, etc. that go beyond just being an evil Jedi.

Doubtful that he's a Sith. There are no Sith to carry the teachings, they died with Palpatine and Vader. At most he is a self-titled Sith.

Overall, everyone seems to prefer to style of the prequel fights, aesthetically they were more advanced but in the OT, the sabers were handled like they actually had a weight behind them, and you were 'hacking' at your opponent instead of the feathery handling of the Jedi/Sith in the PT.

I never connected the paralell between Maul and Anakin fight, you are right. That's really weird.

I liked how Vader fought one-handed in Empire. Unfortunately, that was changed in Jedi, because Marquand liked two-handed fights better.

I mean, if we really want to nitpick fighting in SW we can talk about how any movement of the sabre is pointless, since you don't have to swing the lightsaber at all - you only need it with metal swords, because the harder you swing the bigger its cutting force is. You could only do minimal movements and the lightsaber would cut with the same force as after a great swing.

 

[TM94]

I hated Yoda fighting in the prequels, such a far cry from the majesty of his character in Empire and Jedi.

 

[dragonyeuw]

The idea of having the abilities of a Jedi should allow it be that way though. That's what I thought about it.



I agree this fight was the most tense I was throughout the entire series, it felt like it meant the most. That's why I put RotJ as number one.

Think about two master boxers in the ring( or I suppose nowadays, two fighters in a MMA or UFC fight). They may be masters at their craft, but even a fight between the two best fighters isn't going to play out like a perfectly orchestrated dance. Really, if all Jedi are so attuned that they can foresee and telegraph, then every fight should end in a stalemate.

The ROTJ fight did have the highest stakes, as they say that was the one for all the marbles. So the feeling of it was appropriate to the importance of the moment, especially now in the context of the 6 films.

 

[zma1013]

They're in tune with the force, they can sense the future and react to it before it happens. They should be able to fight as if it's a choreographed dance.

But we both know that's not at all the reason they are fighting like that. They are fighting like that because Lucas or whoever was in charge thought it looked cool. That was the only reason we got twirling ballerina dance fights in the prequels. I feel that merely looking cool for cools sakes is a mistake. There's nothing else to it and it looks and feels fake.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Think about two master boxers in the ring( or I suppose nowadays, two fighters in a MMA or UFC fight). They may be masters at their craft, but even a fight between the two best fighters isn't going to play out like a perfectly orchestrated dance.

Also, they're not Jedis!

Really, if all Jedi are so attuned that they can foresee and telegraph, then every fight should end in a stalemate.

Chess masters don't end up in stalemates every time. One predicts the others moves far enough ahead to leave them with no move to save them.

But we both know that's not at all the reason they are fighting like that. They are fighting like that because Lucas or whoever was in charge thought it looked cool. That was the only reason we got twirling ballerina dance fights in the prequels. I feel that merely looking cool for cools sakes is a mistake. There's nothing else to it and it looks and feels fake.

It very well may be not. I could see him doing that just because it looks cool.

I don't find it too far fetched to think that George was thinking about how Yoda would fight, and envisioning him flipping about, because of the force though.

 

[dragonyeuw]

I liked how Vader fought one-handed in Empire. Unfortunately, that was changed in Jedi, because Marquand liked two-handed fights better.

I think the change from one to two hand worked in the context of the story. In ESB, Luke was basically a novice fighter and Vader's one-handed style against Luke's two-handed visually shows us the difference in skill level and that Vader is toying with him. In ROTJ, Luke's skill has grown to where Vader can't get away with one-handing his way through the fight, he's actually taking Luke serious now because he is a genuine threat.

]

Also, they're not Jedis!

I think it's fair to say Muhammad Ali is an outlier. The main point I'm making is, fights even between two masters (let's say a street fight) aren't that perfectly choreographed. The PT fights were almost like saber fighters demonstrating their prowess in a tournament for points, the flashier the better. The OT fights effectively came off as street fights.

And on the topic of chessmasters, given the pace of a chess match and a saber duel, that's not the best analogy. We're talking split mili-second openings that the Jedi are looking for to take out their opponent.

 

[Fj0823]

Also, they're not Jedis!



Chess masters don't end up in stalemates every time. One predicts the others moves far enough ahead to leave them with no move to save them.



It very well may be not. I could see him doing that just because it looks cool.

I don't find it too far fetched to think that George was thinking about how Yoda would fight, and envisioning him flipping about, because of the force though.

I agree with you, expecting "Master Swordsmen" to just shove glowing sticks at each other is dumb, Fighting with technique is a lot like dancing actually,the entire point is that each Jedi has a style, I can recognize Yoda's over Obi-Wan's. Maul and Qui-Gonn employ a lot of physical moves no other characters use like punching or spinning kicks.

With Luke it makes sense as he's untrained, Old ObiWan? not so much, but it gets a pass for being the first attempt.

I don't mind if they want to give Luke a slow methodical style in the sequels, but to just shove "Techniques" and "Styles" aside in favor of just trying to murder each other, unless it makes sense with the plot

 

[brotherbean]

I remember reading somewhere that in the beginning Lucas wanted the actors to swing the lightsabers as if they were swords and had a bit of weight to them. I don't recall his reasoning (if there was any) but he wanted it to require a good deal of effort to swing a lightsaber.

Personally, I prefer the idea that lightsaber blades are totally weightless and that all of the heft is in the hilt, thus the challenge of using a lightsaber effectively isn't in the strength necessary to wield it but in not twirling it around and effortlessly lopping off several limbs. Even despite their carefully choreographed faults, I tend to prefer the flashy fighting styles in the prequels for this reason.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Best fight. Felt big without needing to prove how bit it is. Not stupidly flashy or overlong like this kind of shit,

and it actually has a strong emotional core to it that comes out through the actors' actions. That's the clash, not just an excuse for choreography. Prequels never had that moment, and the only fights with any kind of emotion behind them were Obi-wan vs. Maul after Qui-Gon is killed (which then ends in the lamest fucking way), and then the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin fight which is so ridiculously overdone that it loses all impact... and again, ends in the dumbest way.

 

[dragonyeuw]

I think the point getting lost a few comments back, and not to sound like I'm parroting Redlettermedia, the saber fights are more about the characters, they're supposed to be actually telling a story beyond two fighters expertly telegraphing each other's moves. Tell me, when you see Dooku and Yoda fighting above in that gif, what story is being presented there? And at what point do we get emotionally involved in what's happening? Even within the context of the movie, there's no dynamic of interest between the two, except that Dooku was once Yoda's apprentice. But now, Dooku is a master in his own right so what do we get? Two master swordsmen telegraphing each other with expert fighting that winds up going nowhere, nor does it have any major relevance to the story itself. The two of them could have not faced off at all, or stood there and talked each other to death, and it would have impacted the story in the same manner.

What's happening with Ben-Vader in ANH? Master and student that haven't seen each other in 20 years, with the background knowledge( from how Ben described it) that this man killed Luke's father, as well as the Jedi Knights. There are stakes there which we can get emotionally connected to, even though the fight was lethargic compared to every other fight we see. Ben's 'death' also serves as both passing of the torch to Luke, but also the sobering reality that Luke will now be continuing the journey without him ( at least his physical presence because the force ghost thing wasn't established till ESB).

What's happening with Luke and Vader at the start of ESB duel? Luke attacks with 2 quick strokes, which Vader easily telegraphs. Luke lunges again, this time Vader blocks it and then pushes back throwing Luke to the ground. In that space of ten seconds, it's established that Vader is clearly superior at this point, which automatically raises the stakes leading to one of the biggest plot twist in cinematic history. What are we left with at the end? We've been emotionally drained with Luke at his discovery, and now the only person with a hope of defeating Vader has been defeated with a limb chomped off to boot. Han is frozen in carbonite, so now your two main heroes are in peril. Where do we go from here!!??

What's happening with Luke and Vader in ROTJ? Within a few moves, Luke kicks Vader off the platform down several steps. What has been established that is relevant to prior events? This isn't wide-eyed rookie Luke talking on Vader, this is now a trained Jedi on par with his enemy, with Palpatine chiding him on to take out Vader and replace him. There are implications there, for the characters as well as what happens in the story if Luke wins and crosses over. We also now know that Leia is Luke's sister, something that Vader picks up on and tries to use against Luke. This leads to the climatic final rally with an enraged Luke driving Vader into the ground and dismembering him. Visual parallels are then drawn, as Luke compared his robotic hand to his Vader''s now missing hand wiht only loose wires remaining at the stump. He realizes that he lost it mentally, that the danger of him becoming his father is real which will have major implications for Luke's character, the empire, the rebel cause and the greater story. STAKES greater than most of what we see in the PT with the exception of the Obi-wan-Anakin duel.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I think the point getting lost a few comments back, and not to sound like I'm parroting Redlettermedia, the saber fights are more about the characters, they're supposed to be actually telling a story beyond two fighters expertly telegraphing each other's moves. Tell me, when you see Dooku and Yoda fighting above in that gif, what story is being presented there? And at what point do we get emotionally involved in what's happening? Even within the context of the movie, there's no dynamic of interest between the two, except that Dooku was once Yoda's apprentice. But now, Dooku is a master in his own right so what do we get? Two master swordsmen telegraphing each other with expert fighting that winds up going nowhere, nor does it have any major relevance to the story itself. The two of them could have not faced off at all, or stood there and talked each other to death, and it would have impacted the story in the same manner.

What's happening with Ben-Vader in ANH? Master and student that haven't seen each other in 20 years, with the background knowledge( from how Ben described it) that this man killed Luke's father, as well as the Jedi Knights. There are stakes there which we can get emotionally connected to, even though the fight was lethargic compared to every other fight we see. Ben's 'death' also serves as both passing of the torch to Luke, but also the sobering reality that Luke will now be continuing the journey without him ( at least his physical presence because the force ghost thing wasn't established till ESB).

What's happening with Luke and Vader at the start of ESB duel? Luke attacks with 2 quick strokes, which Vader easily telegraphs. Luke lunges again, this time Vader blocks it and then pushes back throwing Luke to the ground. In that space of ten seconds, it's established that Vader is clearly superior at this point, which automatically raises the stakes leading to one of the biggest plot twist in cinematic history. What are we left with at the end? We've been emotionally drained with Luke at his discovery, and now the only person with a hope of defeating Vader has been defeated with a limb chomped off to boot. Han is frozen in carbonite, so now your two main heroes are in peril. Where do we go from here!!??

What's happening with Luke and Vader in ROTJ? Within a few moves, Luke kicks Vader off the platform down several steps. What has been established that is relevant to prior events? This isn't wide-eyed rookie Luke talking on Vader, this is now a trained Jedi on par with his enemy, with Palpatine chiding him on to take out Vader and replace him. There are implications there, for the characters as well as what happens in the story if Luke wins and crosses over. We also now know that Leia is Luke's sister, something that Vader picks up on and tries to use against Luke. This leads to the climatic final rally with an enraged Luke driving Vader into the ground and dismembering him. Visual parallels are then drawn, as Luke compared his robotic hand to his Vader''s now missing hand wiht only loose wires remaining at the stump. He realizes that he lost it mentally, that the danger of him becoming his father is real which will have major implications for Luke's character, the empire, the rebel cause and the greater story. STAKES greater than most of what we see in the PT with the exception of the Obi-wan-Anakin duel.

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the fighting style though. That's all writing. You could have the same impact with PT's fighting style if you write them better, and not be lazy with how the fights end.

I'm not saying there was a more meaningful feeling fight in the PT at all compared to the OT. I'm just saying I think the fighting style in PT looks better, and fits the idea of "using the force" better than the OT.

That doesn't mean the fights in the PT happened for a better reason though. That's not the point I was making when I showed the Yoda V Dooku gif.

 

[dragonyeuw]

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the fighting style though. That's all writing. You could have the same impact with PT's fighting style if you write them better, and not be lazy with how the fights end.

I'm not saying there was a more meaningful feeling fight in the PT at all compared to the OT. I'm just saying I think the fighting style in PT looks better, and fits the idea of "using the force" better than the OT.

That doesn't mean the fights in the PT happened for a better reason though. That's not the point I was making when I showed the Yoda V Dooku gif.

We're debating two different things here.The fighting style is inconsequential to the reason they're fighting. It looks cool the first time you see it( the PT fights), until you critique it further and realize it's of little consequence to the story. Even if the fight endings weren't poorly written, the backgrounds of the combatants are devoid of any inter-personal conflict( except Anakin and Obi), and could have easily been written differently leading to the same end-result. Darth Maul visually looks cool, has a bad-ass style, but he's of zero importance in the grand scope and barely important in the movie. There's no background between him and Obi-wan/Qui-gon, and no background on Maul in general, so who really cares about the fight? Sure it looks cool, but what is the ultimate point? Maul kills Qui-gon, Obi-wan kills Maul, and goes on to train Anakin. There was a much easier path to get to that end-goal, that would have been more emotionally satisfying in the grand scheme. How about Obi-wan be the one to discover Anakin instead, convince the council to train him, place all his teachings in him, form a bond......and then it all comes crashing down? That would have made the ROTS climax all the more tragic. So yes, Maul served a purpose as the story was written, but only as a plot device to get Anakin trained by Obi-wan. There were so many better ways to arrive at that point in a way that had more meaning in the story.

Dooku and Yoda, again, fought to a standstill. Yay, we get to see Yoda fight!! Nerd-gasm!! But, was anything in the story impacted by their fight? Not at all, which means beyond the beautiful choreography the duel was pointless.

 

[zma1013]

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the fighting style though. That's all writing. You could have the same impact with PT's fighting style if you write them better, and not be lazy with how the fights end.

I'm not saying there was a more meaningful feeling fight in the PT at all compared to the OT. I'm just saying I think the fighting style in PT looks better, and fits the idea of "using the force" better than the OT.

That doesn't mean the fights in the PT happened for a better reason though. That's not the point I was making when I showed the Yoda V Dooku gif.

I think part of it is the fighting style though when it doesn't look like a fight at all. I'm not sure I could take something like the Luke and Vader fight seriously if they were twirling around nonsensically all the time, bouncing around as if they were rubber balls. There is a point in which the "Epic" shark can be jumped and an epic scene turns into its own self parody. That Obiwan/Anakin fight in ROTS is that to me, and not even a cleverly self-aware one. It's like the Peter/Chicken fights in Family Guy, only one is clearly joking and the other, well trying to be epic or something.

 

[The Dutch Slayer]

Nice read op awesome
Now go watch read letter media reviews of ep 1,2,3 and laugh your ass off

 

[BFIB]

I hated Yoda fighting in the prequels, such a far cry from the majesty of his character in Empire and Jedi.

Agreed. For one, clearly by Empire Yoda is not in the best of health, but not even 18 years before he's jumping all around? Doesn't add up.

I always wanted him and Palpatine to never use a lightsaber. They should be above those means.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the fighting style though. That's all writing. You could have the same impact with PT's fighting style if you write them better, and not be lazy with how the fights end.

I'm not saying there was a more meaningful feeling fight in the PT at all compared to the OT. I'm just saying I think the fighting style in PT looks better, and fits the idea of "using the force" better than the OT.

That doesn't mean the fights in the PT happened for a better reason though. That's not the point I was making when I showed the Yoda V Dooku gif.

Except a fight isn't a fight if it doesn't feel like characters are impacted by what's going on. Yes, it should be written better. Yes, it should end better than "I have the high ground!" (which, hey, where was that logic when you were fighting Darth Maul, Obi-Wan?)

But people need to feel like they're being hit, being battered, losing control. There needs to be push and pull. Look at the Matrix 1 with the fight between Neo and Agent Smith. Neo is bloodied, battered, dirty, gets tired. Then look at the fights in the second and third movies, and it's just flashy moves, but everyone looks just fine, gets up, and keeps going. There's no progression to the fight until the timer runs out and the director decides "okay, that's probably enough time."

Look at Luke at the end of his fight in ESB. He starts calm and clean, but by the end? He's just desperate, tired, wounded, and scared. Did he do a bunch of super insane shit? Nah, Vader just pounded him. But then Revenge of the Sith, they're flinging on wires, running through lava, doing all sorts of nonsense, and they just look sweaty and are about as collected as they were at the start of the fight.

 

[dragonyeuw]

I think part of it is the fighting style though when it doesn't look like a fight at all. I'm not sure I could take something like the Luke and Vader fight seriously if they were twirling around nonsensically all the time, bouncing around as if they were rubber balls. There is a point in which the "Epic" shark can be jumped and an epic scene turns into its own self parody. That Obiwan/Anikikan fight in ROTS is that to me, and not even a cleverly self-aware one. It's like the Peter/Chicken fights in Family Guy, only one is clearly joking and the other, well trying to be epic or something.

Indeed, the Obi-wan-Anakin fight was so self-aware that it was supposed to be the duel to end all duels, that it did wind up a caricature by the end. I mean, how can you look at the scene with them swinging as something that had any point at all, story-wise or even this debated 'fighting style' wise? All restraint was out the door.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Except a fight isn't a fight if it doesn't feel like characters are impacted by what's going on. Yes, it should be written better. Yes, it should end better than "I have the high ground!" (which, hey, where was that logic when you were fighting Darth Maul, Obi-Wan?)

But people need to feel like they're being hit, being battered, losing control. There needs to be push and pull. Look at the Matrix 1 with the fight between Neo and Agent Smith. Neo is bloodied, battered, dirty, gets tired. Then look at the fights in the second and third movies, and it's just flashy moves, but everyone looks just fine.

Look at Luke at the end of his fight in ESB. He starts calm and clean, but by the end? He's just desperate, tired, wounded, and scared. Did he do a bunch of super insane shit? Nah, Vader just pounded him. But then Revenge of the Sith, they're flinging on wires, running through lava, doing all sorts of nonsense, and they just look sweaty and about as collected as they did at the start of the fight.

That all comes in the writing! If the PT fights were written better, you would have not only the choreography of them, but you would have them getting hit. They would be battered and bruised.

I don't think you guys are understanding what I mean when I say "If they were better written, they could have the same impact". They don't have to be smooth and nobody get touched. They could be bloody, and could be more emotional.

We'll see in 7 I guess. I'm done with the arguing about it because..

IMO the PT saber fight style fits the idea of a Jedi being able to sense the future, having Jedi reflexes and instincts, and having Jedi agility and power. If I thought of all those attributes, and then thought what the fight would look like between two people who have them all, it damn sure would not be Vader vs Obi, or any OT saber fight.

 

[sphagnum]

I'm just looking forward to a new story, and seeing the OT crew get back together. I'm excited to see if the Jedi will ever replenish their numbers, and bring balance back to the damn universe! And to see the new sith. Isn't there always supposed to be two? The master and the apprentice?

Anakin brought balance to the Force in RotJ - George Lucas has stated this quite a few times. "Bringing balance to the Force" means restoring the Force to its natural state. The dark side is a natural thing but it is a cancer that spreads when it is manipulated. This is because, since the Force is simply a natural energy field but yet one that has some semi-sentient properties (the "Will of the Force"), when the Force is in harmony it's because Force sensitive people are treating it as their guide, rather than trying to bend it for their own purposes - that is when the dark side is mainipulated and spreads like a cancer, throwing everything off (hence why the Jedi were diminishing in their powers in the PT, which Mace Windu stated, i.e. "I think it is time we inform the Senate that our power to use the Force has diminshed", or Yoda when he said "The dark side of the Force clouds everything...impossible to see the future is.").

Think of it this way, which admittedly wasn't explained at all in the movies but does get explained in TCW. It's not a spoiler, it's just the actual intention behind the meaning "Balance of the Force". The Force is comprised of two interacting elements: the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. The Cosmic Force is the "greater" one that all things feed into upon death, the power that binds the galaxy together and is the source of all life as well as its point of return. The Living Force is what people can feel and interact with day to day, and what Qui-Gon thinks is more important to observe. The Force is in balance when these two parts of the duality are flowing back and forth between each other and Force-sensitive beings are living in harmony with it, following it and treating it as a friend ("For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is") and not a tool. The Sith do not believe in living with the Force, they believe in bending the Force to their will. That, along with any other Force sensitive who might do that like the increasingly corrupt Jedi Order, throws off the balance of the Force and allows the cancer to spread. It is important to note that Qui-Gon was the first to achieve what was thought to be impossible - maintaining his identity after death - because he was truly in tune with the Living Force while the other Jedi had become stagnant.

Anakin brought balance when he destroyed the Sith, including himself, and since Luke was the only Jedi left - and one who was much more in tune with how a Jedi should act, as someone living a life of real humility and love rather than being a pious dogmatic ass - he is free to try to build a new order.

So the Force is already in balance at the time of RotJ. Whether that remains is something to be seen (but obviously won't happen since then there wouldn't be a plot, since it requires conflict, right?). But there's no reason to assume the Sith are back, since the chain was broken with the death of both members who observed the Rule of Two. Someone wielding a red lightsaber doesn't necessarily make them a Sith, which is a specific organization. You'll see some canon non-Sith red lightsaber wielders in TCW.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Well, I'm glad you've seen them all now! The whole saga has its warts, but overall it's a pretty worthwhile, entertaining bunch of flicks.

 

[dragonyeuw]

That all comes in the writing! If the PT fights were written better, you would have not only the choreography of them, but you would have them getting hit. They would be battered and bruised.

I don't think you guys are understanding what I mean when I say "If they were better written, they could have the same impact". They don't have to be smooth and nobody get touched. They could be bloody, and could be more emotional.

We'll see in 7 I guess. I'm done with the arguing about it because..

IMO the PT saber fight style fits the idea of a Jedi being able to sense the future, having Jedi reflexes and instincts, and having Jedi agility and power. If I thought of all those attributes, and then thought what the fight would look like between two people who have them all, it damn sure would not be Vader vs Obi, or any OT saber fight.

I'm not sure you're quite getting what we're saying either, but yeah at this point we're going in circles. I guess the good thing about all this is people are free to interpret it however they wish.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Anakin brought balance to the Force in RotJ - George Lucas has stated this quite a few times. "Bringing balance to the Force" means restoring the Force to its natural state. The dark side is a natural thing but it is a cancer that spreads when it is manipulated. This is because, since the Force is simply a natural energy field but yet one that has some semi-sentient properties (the "Will of the Force"), when the Force is in harmony it's because Force sensitive people are treating it as their guide, rather than trying to bend it for their own purposes - that is when the dark side is mainipulated and spreads like a cancer, throwing everything off (hence why the Jedi were diminishing in their powers in the PT, which Mace Windu stated, i.e. "I think it is time we inform the Senate that our power to use the Force has diminshed", or Yoda when he said "The dark side of the Force clouds everything...impossible to see the future is.").

Think of it this way, which admittedly wasn't explained at all in the movies but does get explained in TCW. It's not a spoiler, it's just the actual intention behind the meaning "Balance of the Force". The Force is comprised of two interacting elements: the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. The Cosmic Force is the "greater" one that all things feed into upon death, the power that binds the galaxy together and is the source of all life as well as its point of return. The Living Force is what people can feel and interact with day to day, and what Qui-Gon thinks is more important to observe. The Force is in balance when these two parts of the duality are flowing back and forth between each other and Force-sensitive beings are living in harmony with it, following it and treating it as a friend ("For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is") and not a tool. The Sith do not believe in living with the Force, they believe in bending the Force to their will. That, along with any other Force sensitive who might do that like the increasingly corrupt Jedi Order, throws off the balance of the Force and allows the cancer to spread. It is important to note that Qui-Gon was the first to achieve what was thought to be impossible - maintaining his identity after death - because he was truly in tune with the Living Force while the other Jedi had become stagnant.

Anakin brought balance when he destroyed the Sith, including himself, and since Luke was the only Jedi left - and one who was much more in tune with how a Jedi should act, as someone living a life of real humility and love rather than being a pious dogmatic ass - he is free to try to build a new order.

So the Force is already in balance at the time of RotJ. Whether that remains is something to be seen (but obviously won't happen since then there wouldn't be a plot, since it requires conflict, right?). But there's no reason to assume the Sith are back, since the chain was broken with the death of both members who observed the Rule of Two. Someone wielding a red lightsaber doesn't necessarily make them a Sith, which is a specific organization. You'll see some canon non-Sith red lightsaber wielders in TCW.

I was thinking about Vader and the Emperor dying too. As well as the prophecy of Anakin being the chosen one that brings balance to the force coming true with that. I was more so wondering if there will be more Jedi. If the will make a comeback somehow.

Regarding Siths, I really can't wait to see.

I'm not sure you're quite getting what we're saying either, but yeah at this point we're going in circles. I guess the good thing about all this is people are free to interpret it however they wish.

The argument changed at some point, right around the Ali gif.

 

[sphagnum]

I know the focus is on TCW now but do you have any intention of reading the new canon novels/comics/etc?

Also I know a lot of people suggesting skipping the movie but I'd say watch it anyway at least for the first half. It's the second half that's pretty bland, but the first half sets up an important relationship for the rest of the series and there's two episodes that lead right into it. And definitely watch the 2D series even though it's non-canon because TCW was designed with assumption that people had already seen the 2D series - it's a shame that it got purged.

 

[Fj0823]

That all comes in the writing! If the PT fights were written better, you would have not only the choreography of them, but you would have them getting hit. They would be battered and bruised.

I don't think you guys are understanding what I mean when I say "If they were better written, they could have the same impact". They don't have to be smooth and nobody get touched. They could be bloody, and could be more emotional.

We'll see in 7 I guess. I'm done with the arguing about it because..

IMO the PT saber fight style fits the idea of a Jedi being able to sense the future, having Jedi reflexes and instincts, and having Jedi agility and power. If I thought of all those attributes, and then thought what the fight would look like between two people who have them all, it damn sure would not be Vader vs Obi, or any OT saber fight.

Look, you're a new fan, there's one thing you must know.

The prequel hate is just ridiculous, see the people disecting the Maul fight while giving Vader vs Obi Wan constant passes and excuses.

You won't change their minds, on one has in 16 years of the exact same argument about dancing, the reviews and emotional fights, and In expecting the same for episode 7

This also applies to prequel fans hating on the clone wars and rebels, and EU fans hating on the new novels, just roll with it.

I agree with you completely on every point you've made

 

[BFIB]

That all comes in the writing! If the PT fights were written better, you would have not only the choreography of them, but you would have them getting hit. They would be battered and bruised.

I don't think you guys are understanding what I mean when I say "If they were better written, they could have the same impact". They don't have to be smooth and nobody get touched. They could be bloody, and could be more emotional.

We'll see in 7 I guess. I'm done with the arguing about it because..

IMO the PT saber fight style fits the idea of a Jedi being able to sense the future, having Jedi reflexes and instincts, and having Jedi agility and power. If I thought of all those attributes, and then thought what the fight would look like between two people who have them all, it damn sure would not be Vader vs Obi, or any OT saber fight.

If you look at the way the fights are between Luke/Vader in Empire, then Luke/Vader in ROTJ, you can see how must faster Luke is already getting.

The Jedi in the prequels were trained in the Jedi Arts, so they know the full ability of the lightsaber. Obi/Vader in IV was just a battle of wits more than anything. Obi was trying to buy time for them to get off the Death Star. He knew he was heading into a one way mission as soon as the tractor beam is on them "There are alternatives to fighting., whereas Vader wanted another showdown.

I don't get the lightsaber hate in the prequels either. Some people just love to hate anything and everything about them, and while they aren't near as good as the OT, there are pieces of classic Star Wars in them.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I know the focus is on TCW now but do you have any intention of reading the new canon novels/comics/etc?

Also I know a lot of people suggesting skipping the movie but I'd say watch it anyway at least for the first half. It's the second half that's pretty bland, but the first half sets up an important relationship for the rest of the series and there's two episodes that lead right into it. And definitely watch the 2D series even though it's non-canon because TCW was designed with assumption that people had already seen the 2D series - it's a shame that it got purged.

I'm not gonna make any promises on Novels and Comics, although I will keep it in mind. I'm not going to dedicate my life to Star Wars now lol.

As for the 2D series and the CW movie, I plan on watching both. Do you suggest I watch the two episodes of TCW that come before the movie, before I watch the movie?

Look, you're a new fan, there's one thing you must know.

The prequel hate is just ridiculous, see the people disecting the Maul fight while giving Vader vs Obi Wan constant passes and excuses.

You won't change their minds, on one has in 16 years of the exact same argument about dancing, the reviews and emotional fights, and In expecting the same for episode 7

This also applies to prequel fans hating on the clone wars and rebels, and EU fans hating on the new novels, just roll with it.

I agree with you completely on every point you've made

I think I'm getting the idea. lol

 

[dragonyeuw]

The argument changed at some point, right around the Ali gif.

I think the debate evolved into how important the fight style is relative to why the characters are fighting and its relevance to the story.

 

[sphagnum]

The prequel hate is just ridiculous, see the people disecting the Maul fight while giving Vader vs Obi Wan constant passes and excuses.

This in particular is really annoying. The Naboo duel was explicitly designed to look like a graceful dance on purpose because it shows Force users at the height of their powers. And when Qui-Gon dies and Obi-Wan goes nuts there's real emotion there. But somehow Obi-Wan vs. Vader in ANH is a better fight because of the emotion between the characters. Dooku is supposed to be a fencer. Anakin and Obi-Wan, when they fight in RotS, are at their absolute best, hence why it's so fast and they know exactly how the other is going to respond. Ewan and Hayden trained furiously for months over that fight, wanting to do it themselves and not rely on doubles, and the dedication they put into making it look good is swept under the rug because "lol that one time they twirled sabers at each other oh and also it's like a dance".

The problem is the ANH blows in terms of actual choreography and that ruins the mood. Yes, the two characters have a lot of history between each other. But it looks silly because it's two guys who cannot fight at all smacking sticks together. IIRC Prowse had lied about his skills as part of getting the role and that's why he sucks so much at it, hence why they didn't let him play Vader during the duels in the next two movies. The ANH fight is objectively bad. It's not purposefully bad to show that Obi-Wan is an old man and Vader is a decrepit cyborg. It's just literally dull, and it ruins what otherwise should be an emotional experience. Even when I was a kid I just thought it sucked.

As for the 2D series and the CW movie, I plan on watching both. Do you suggest I watch the two episodes of TCW that come before the movie, before I watch the movie?

I would, because at least that means you start off TCW with something that's not boring. I generally prefer watching TCW in chronological order anyway though simply because it feels weird seeing dead characters pop up in the middle of story arcs when you're watching it in release order.

 

[dragonyeuw]

meh, forget it.

 

[Gravidee]

I hated Yoda fighting in the prequels, such a far cry from the majesty of his character in Empire and Jedi.

I think it says something about his state of mind then compared to by the time of Empire. He had 19 years and more to dwell upon the events of the war and how it led to the Jedi's downfall, partially because they clung to old doctrines and hypocritical forms of thinking. The events of the last four episodes of TCW serve as a catalyst to the wiser Yoda we see by the time of the OT.

Agreed. For one, clearly by Empire Yoda is not in the best of health, but not even 18 years before he's jumping all around? Doesn't add up.

I always wanted him and Palpatine to never use a lightsaber. They should be above those means.

Well let's not forget that he's been living in a nasty swamp for all those years. Who knows how healthy that place is for you long term? But jokes aside, I think old age just caught up to him pretty quickly after those stressful times. It happens.

As for him and Palpatine with sabers, above all I think they were just given weapons just to sell toys. Even when I was young I knew I wouldn't buy a Yoda toy if he couldn't do anything. But with a saber? And after watching him leaping around like a crazy gremlin? Sure, why not.

Story-wise, I'd say that using sabers is still an essential part of using the force in close combat. The final fight with Yoda and Palpy still had them using the force much of the time when they weren't near one another. By the final scene, neither had their sabers and turned out that both of their powers of the force was so strong that it ended the battle in a stalemate. By the time of the OT, I think both realized that they had such mastery of the force that they didn't really need such weapons anymore. So maybe there was a transition period for the both of them since their last duel together.

 

[Fj0823]

I think I'm getting the idea. lol

You should have seen the meltdowns over the new crossguarded lightsaber Kylo Ren will use in episode 7.

People went as far as sending JJ Abrams their own designs that "Made sense for combat" followed by stuff like "JJ you got it all wrong, here I fixed it for you"

 

[dragonyeuw]

The Naboo duel was explicitly designed to look like a graceful dance on purpose because it shows Force users at the height of their powers.

-snip-
The ANH fight is objectively bad. It's not purposefully bad to show that Obi-Wan is an old man and Vader is a decrepit cyborg.
-snip-

If we're going by what Lucas says in the behind the scenes, the Obi-wan/Vader duel was done that way to show a fight between a cyborg and an old-out of shape Jedi. That explanation 'works' within the context of the story, even if in reality it's just a simple excuse for the lack of better choreography 40 years ago, and/or lack of the actors involved to put up a better showing.

As for which is 'better', the Obi-wan-Vader fight is more consequential in the context of the story especially when you add the PT backstory. Obviously visually it sucks compared to the PT or even the Luke-Vader duels. There's two arguments going on here, the visual style of the PT vs OT and the purpose of the fights in the context of the big picture.

 

[zma1013]

This in particular is really annoying. The Naboo duel was explicitly designed to look like a graceful dance on purpose because it shows Force users at the height of their powers. And when Qui-Gon dies and Obi-Wan goes nuts there's real emotion there. But somehow Obi-Wan vs. Vader in ANH is a better fight because of the emotion between the characters. Dooku is supposed to be a fencer. Anakin and Obi-Wan, when they fight in RotS, are at their absolute best, hence why it's so fast and they know exactly how the other is going to respond. Ewan and Hayden trained furiously for months over that fight, wanting to do it themselves and not rely on doubles, and the dedication they put into making it look good is swept under the rug because "lol that one time they twirled sabers at each other oh and also it's like a dance".

The problem is the ANH blows in terms of actual choreography and that ruins the mood. Yes, the two characters have a lot of history between each other. But it looks silly because it's two guys who cannot fight at all smacking sticks together. IIRC Prowse had lied about his skills as part of getting the role and that's why he sucks so much at it, hence why they didn't let him play Vader during the duels in the next two movies. The ANH fight is objectively bad. It's not purposefully bad to show that Obi-Wan is an old man and Vader is a decrepit cyborg. It's just literally dull, and it ruins what otherwise should be an emotional experience. Even when I was a kid I just thought it sucked.

Maybe it happened somewhere earlier in the thread that I didn't see but usually people cite Empire and Jedi fights as great lightsaber duels from the OT. I don't personally recall a time anyone referenced ANH. A New Hope is not mentioned for the very reason you stated, It just looks like 2 old dudes hitting sticks together and not like an actual fight.

 

[Sephzilla]

This, to me, is still my favorite saber duel moment, the culmination of everything that had been perfectly building to that point. It had the organic feel of a real fight, Luke's anger in the moment overwhelming Vader who we see vulnerable for the first time, the haunting music in the background. If this scene had been done by Lucas ten years ago, it would have occurred with Luke and Vader surfing over a flowing lava lake or some other over the top environment.

I agree this fight was the most tense I was throughout the entire series, it felt like it meant the most. That's why I put RotJ as number one.

My man! #Brofist

The final battle between Vader and Luke is so amazingly good. Great camera work. Williams' music is A+. The storytelling is superb. It manages to take what should be a victorious moment of the hero defeating the villain and transforms it into a sad/tense moment where a father is about to be killed by his son.

 

[Ray Wonder]

You should have seen the meltdowns over the new crossguarded lightsaber Kylo Ren will use in episode 7.

People went as far as sending JJ Abrams their own designs that "Made sense for combat" followed by stuff like "JJ you got it all wrong, here I fixed it for you"

I remembered seeing that. It looks awesome to me.

My man! #Brofist

The final battle between Vader and Luke is so amazingly good. Great camera work. Williams' music is A+. The storytelling is superb. It manages to take what should be a victorious moment of the hero defeating the villain and transforms it into a sad/tense moment where a father is about to be killed by his son.

I loved it. Definitely one of my favorite moments in Star Wars.

 

[dragonyeuw]

I loved it. Definitely one of my favorite moments in Star Wars.

Ive seen that scene countless times and I get chills each time. That music in the background gets me every time.

 

[sphagnum]

I saw someone once say that when the chorus kicks in as Luke starts going after Vader, they imagined it was a chorus of the Whills resonating with the world-historical moment. That's been my headcanon ever since then.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I know the focus is on TCW now but do you have any intention of reading the new canon novels/comics/etc?

I changed my mind. I bought the Aftermath hardback. I'm weak willed. lol

 

[rakhir]

I'm envious that you can jump into Star Wars withouth any baggage.
I still don't know how I'll manage to discard old-EU from my brain. For me the Thrawn trilogy are episodes 7-9, but now my favourite Star Wars character doesn't even exist in canon...*

It's all really weird


*

Spoiler

It's Mara Jade, Palpatine dark-jedi readheaded super spy turned Lukes badass wife

 

[Ray Wonder]

I'm envious that you can jump into Star Wars withouth any baggage.
I still don't know how I'll manage to discard old-EU from my brain. For me the Thrawn trilogy are episodes 7-9, but now my favourite Star Wars character doesn't even exist in canon...*

It's all really weird


*

Spoiler

It's Mara Jade, Palpatine dark-jedi readheaded super spy turned Lukes badass wife

That really sucks, and I'm kinda scared of them doing that again.

 

[sphagnum]

I changed my mind. I bought the Aftermath hardback. I'm weak willed. lol

Aftermath is ok, but not really the best new canon book. Certainly better than some of the other new canon books so far though (coughHeirtotheJedicough).

If I had to recommend one book from the new canon it would be the Servants of the Empire series. Well, that's cheating, because it's three young adult novels (with a fourth coming), but it's so much better than most of the actual adult novels put out so far. But that heavily ties into Rebels so you'd have to be watching that to really read it.

Also, when you're done with TCW, remember that Son of Dathomir (comic) and Dark Disciple (novel) are canon sequels to the series which are based on unused scripts. The show was cancelled when Disney bought the franchise so they only made it through five and a half seasons despite having eight seasons planned, so there are eight unfinished episodes (the Crystal Crisis on Utapau arc and the Bad Batch arc) on starwars.com that are still counted as canon plus those two stories. Don't look into either of them though just yet because it will spoil a lot about TCW.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Aftermath is ok, but not really the best new canon book. Certainly better than some of the other new canon books so far though (coughHeirtotheJedicough).

If I had to recommend one book from the new canon it would be the Servants of the Empire series. Well, that's cheating, because it's three young adult novels (with a fourth coming), but it's so much better than most of the actual adult novels put out so far. But that heavily ties into Rebels so you'd have to be watching that to really read it.

Also, when you're done with TCW, remember that Son of Dathomir (comic) and Dark Disciple (novel) are canon sequels to the series which are based on unused scripts. The show was cancelled when Disney bought the franchise so they only made it through five and a half seasons despite having eight seasons planned, so there are eight unfinished episodes (the Crystal Crisis on Utapau arc and the Bad Batch arc) on starwars.com that are still counted as canon plus those two stories. Don't look into either of them though just yet because it will spoil a lot about TCW.

Oh my god there's so much.

I got aftermath because it's after RotJ.

 

[sphagnum]

Oh my god there's so much.

I got aftermath because it's after RotJ.

Haha you have no idea how much new canon content there already is. Let me quote my timeline from the community board's new canon thread, with a few updates...

PREQUEL ERA
Episode I: The Phantom Menace (film)
Episode II: Attack of the Clones (film)
The Clone Wars (animated film)
The Clone Wars (animated series - the 3D one)
Crystal Crisis on Utapau (unfinished story reels)
The Bad Batch (unfinished story reels)
Kindred Spirits (short story)
Dark Disciple (novel)
Son of Dathomir (comic, takes place halfway through Dark Disciple)
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (film)

THE DARK TIMES
Kanan (comic - framing story is set during the tv series Rebels though)
Lords of the Sith (novel)
Orientation (short story, set during Lords of the Sith)
Mercy Mission (short story, not out yet)
Tarkin (novel)
Bottleneck (short story, not out yet)
A New Dawn (novel)
Han Solo (film, goes somewhere around here???)
The End of History (short story)
HoloNet News Reports (tie-in with Rebels)
Servants of the Empire: Edge of the Galaxy (young adult novel)
Rebels short episodes (animated series)
Ezra's Gamble (young adult novel, ties into the last short episode)
Spark of Rebellion (Rebels season 1 premiere special event)
Rebels season 1 (animated series)
Rebels (UK comics, take place during Rebels series)
Servants of the Empire: Rebel in the Ranks (young adult novel, takes place during the Rebels episode "Breaking Ranks")
Servants of the Empire: Imperial Justice (young adult novel, takes place during second half of season 1 of Rebels)
Rebel Bluff (short story)
The Siege of Lothal (Rebels season 2 premiere special event)
Rebels season 2 (animated series, not out yet)
Servants of the Empire: The Secret Academy (young adult novel, not out yet)
Rogue One (film, not out yet)

ORIGINAL ERA
Episode IV: A New Hope (film)
The Story Before The Force Awakens (Korean webtoon adaptation of the OT with extra scenes, runs through the entire OT)
The Princess, The Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy (young adult novel adaptation of ANH with extra scenes, not out yet)
Last Call at the Zero Angle (short story, ties into end of ANH)
One Thousand Levels Down (short story, takes place either during or right after ANH)
Princess Leia (comic)
Smuggler's Run (young adult novel, concurrent with or right after Princess Leia)
Chewbacca (comic, not out yet)
Heir to the Jedi (novel)
The Weapon of a Jedi (young adult novel)
Star Wars (comic)
Darth Vader (comic)
Vader Down (SWxDV crossover event, not out yet)
Commander (mobile game)
Battlefront (short story, tentative title, not out yet)
Battlefront: Twilight Company (novel, 18 months after ANH)
Lando (comic, exact placement unknown but between ANH and ESB)
Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (film)
So You Want to Be a Jedi? (young adult novel adaptation of ESB with extra scenes, not out yet)
Moving Target (young adult novel)
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi (film)
Beware the Power of the Dark Side! (young adult novel adaptation of RotJ with extra scenes, not out yet)
Blade Squadron Parts I & II (short story, takes place during the Battle of Endor)
The Levers of Power (short story, takes place during the Battle of Endor)
Shattered Empire (comic)
Uprising (mobile RPG)
Aftermath (novel)
Blade Squadron: Zero Hour (short story, takes place during Aftermath)
Lost Stars (young adult novel, spans the OT era and past RotJ to the Battle of Jakku)
Battlefront (video game, at least the Battle of Jakku part)
C-3PO (comic, not out yet, might actually be in the sequel era)

SEQUEL ERA
Episode VII: The Force Awakens (film, not out yet)
Episode VIII (film, not out yet)
Episode IX (film, not out yet)

And that's just since spring 2014. Imagine what the old Expanded Universe looked like before the purge.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Haha you have no idea how much new canon content there already is. Let me quote my timeline from the community board's new canon thread, with a few updates...



And that's just since spring 2014. Imagine what the old Expanded Universe looked like before the purge.

That legitimately made me queasy looking at all of it. I guess the best option for me is to just check out what seems interesting and don't worry about keeping up, because that's a lot.

 

[bitizenbon]

Oh my god there's so much.

Don't forget the comics. Marvel's Star Wars and Darth Vader are the two current ongoing comics, and take place between A New Hope and Empire. Princess Leia is a 5-issue limited series that has ended and Lando is two issues away from ending.

The most recent and new release is Shattered Empire, which takes place immediately after ROTJ and will only consist of four issues. Chewbacca, Vader Down and a C-3PO one-shot are coming in the months of October-December, leading up to episode 7.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

That legitimately made me queasy looking at all of it. I guess the best option for me is to just check out what seems interesting and don't worry about keeping up, because that's a lot.

Clone Wars is going to be enough of a timesink as it is. Don't feel like you need to check out the publishing side. Or hell, even Clone Wars. You don't need to check out any of this shit after the movies, honestly. It's there if the universe has so grabbed you that you're willing to enjoy (usually) lesser-quality trips back into that universe through differing media, (although the Clone Wars series - both of them - are genuinely very good) but you absolutely do not need to go into that particular publishing forest unless the film's worked on you so well that you'd rather allocate time you'd otherwise spend on some other series, or book, or game, towards the Star Wars expanded universe.

Even in the case of the new canon, the most common best-case scenario is low-grade methadone high compared to the heroin hit of Empire Strikes Back.

 

[rakhir]

If new EU is anything like old-EU than you can not bother with 60% of the stuff they put out.

That really sucks, and I'm kinda scared of them doing that again.

Don't worry. I can only see that if Disney would sell Star Wars, and I don't think thats happening in our lifetime.

 

[sphagnum]

Yeah, the new canon non-screen stuff (I'd count the movies and tv shows together in terms of their importance, at least with TCW) is usually of lesser quality so you don't need to worry about it. There's likely not going to be anything of major importance in any books or comics that focus on the period of the PT or the OT since the main stories have already been told. The old EU could build whole new epics in times long before the movies or times after the movies that were of "equal importance" in terms of their grandeur although usually not their quality, but the current new canon seems more interested in filling in the gaps and fleshing out concepts and characters from the time periods we're familiar with.

There's still worthwhile stuff in there and it feels pretty well interconnected but don't beat yourself up over trying to be a completionist or anything.

 

[Sephzilla]

I loved it. Definitely one of my favorite moments in Star Wars.

Ive seen that scene countless times and I get chills each time. That music in the background gets me every time.

Everything that takes place in the Emperor's throne room is why I personally like Jedi more than Empire. I really wish the blurays didn't ruin the payoff with that stupid NOOOO

 

[dragonyeuw]

Everything that takes place in the Emperor's throne room is why I personally like Jedi more than Empire. I really wish the blurays didn't ruin the payoff with that stupid NOOOO

With Disney in control now, I wonder if we'll ever see the unaltered, or have they forever been lost to history?