Support NeoGAF

[Madjako]

I bought those games on the PS4, will I get the upgrade for free?

 

[assurdum]

Is the own version just as good?

In theory should be even better (hearing the ex engineer) but who knows. Anyway the thing people continue to miss about such tech is to save redundant operations cycle (more or less) to boost greatly the perfomance . The fact ps5 not using straightly the vrs and mesh of amd, doesn't means it can't have something relative about it or it's worse in some way. The more interesting stuff is ps5 has dedicated GE hardware for such tasks, where vrs and mesh shaders RDNA2 need to use more CUs they can. That means, other that ps5 could do easily the same, CUs can be fully used for other tasks and not wasted also for such operations.

 

[Whitecrow]

Again the PS5 no VRS talk?
How hard is to understand that PS5 have a custom (and better) solution for it in its Geometry Engine?

 

[The_Mike]

So, a next gen update for consoles, and a paid patch for PC.

 

[Portugeezer]

Hopefully they update the gamepad controls. Feels like shit to play.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Would be nice if this one could launch directly on Plus like Control Ultimate.

I am very confident it will be a PS+ game before 2021 ends.

 

[King_Mandu]

So, a next gen update for consoles, and a paid patch for PC.

No. Free if you own the game on PC already.

I'll keep on waiting for this game to hit $5 on grey market key sites. Thanks, Epic Games Store, for saving me so much money the past few years.

 

[Little Chicken]

Interesting that 4A Games have their own VRS solution and have been using it since last gen!

 

[FlyyGOD]

Again the PS5 no VRS talk?
How hard is to understand that PS5 have a custom (and better) solution for it in its Geometry Engine?

Ill take your word on it over the developers of Metro Exodus. You seem to be more knowledgeable than the expert programmers of the game.

 

[Tiamat2san]

Well I liked the game, never did the dlc.
I might grab this edition with all the extras.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

Hopefully they update the gamepad controls. Feels like shit to play.

All the Metro games are really heavy feeling. I think it's on purpose.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Ill take your word on it over the developers of Metro Exodus. You seem to be more knowledgeable than the expert programmers of the game.

Its funny, they keep hollering out about the Geometry Engine when the Metro developers already said they're using a software version they made for the PS4.

 

[Armorian]

VRS so far is shit anyway so not a big loss on PS5, but still hardware in this console is like a weird mix of RDNA1, 2 and something else:

MASSIVE performance gains of VRS tier 2

 

[Shmunter]

Its funny, they keep hollering out about the Geometry Engine when the Metro developers already said they're using a software version they made for the PS4.

I believe the Geometry Engine is software programmable. The hardware could very well be used to implement efficiency for software that provides rendering savings like vrs.

Indeed, the dev mentioned their software solution is being upgraded to PS5, that seems to tell a story. Probably wouldn’t need an update if it executed in a traditional sense.

Pure speculation.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Again the PS5 no VRS talk?
How hard is to understand that PS5 have a custom (and better) solution for it in its Geometry Engine?

Don't forget the cache scrubbers. They will scrub those pixel tiles clean.

 

[Mister Wolf]

I believe the Geometry Engine is software programmable. The hardware could very well be used to implement efficiency for software that provides rendering savings like vrs.

Indeed, the dev mentioned their software solution is being upgraded to PS5, that seems to tell a story. Probably wouldn’t need an update if it executed in a traditional sense.

Pure speculation.

4A Games are very forward thinking with tech. It would shock me if they didn't take advantage of the hardware in the PS5. If they don't then the only thing I can surmise is it wasn't as easy to implement as the Tier 2 VRS already built into DX12U.

 

[Shmunter]

4A Games are very forward thinking with tech. It would shock me if they didn't take advantage of the hardware in the PS5. If they don't then the only thing I can surmise is it wasn't as easy to implement as the Tier 2 VRS already built into DX12U.

Indeed, their 60fps Metro remasters on base PS4/Xbox are fascinating. Total pros, really leveraging the available hardware.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Indeed, their 60fps Metro remasters on base PS4/Xbox is fascinating. Total pros, really leveraging the available hardware.

They're the only developer who saw the light(no pun intended) and has now made the commitment to having the entire lighting done in game through means of raytracing. I knew they were the real ones to look at in 2018 when those select developers were demonstrating how they were going to implement raytracing. Once I saw 4A's demo I immediately understood why raytracing is the future of realistic visuals in games.

 

[WeakerTO22]

Finally raytracing lighting. I really want to see it on console .

Call of Duty Cold War uses it. And at 60fps.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

DRS I assume.

Direct Rate Shading?

 

[Mister Wolf]

Call of Duty Cold War uses it. And at 60fps.

Call of Duty uses raytracing for shadows.

 

[GHG]

Waste of time and money, just play it through backward compatibility.

Nothing stopping you from doing that. Go ahead.

The rest of us will enjoy the enhancements.

 

[WeakerTO22]

Call of Duty uses raytracing for shadows.

Oh I thought it was their lighting system that implemented shadows and that RT was all connected to it. My mistake.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

I feel like people need to mess around with Minecraft rtx so they can see how much rt gi can effect visually.

 

[Armorian]

Oh I thought it was their lighting system that implemented shadows and that RT was all connected to it. My mistake.

They also use RT AO on PC

 

[GC_DALBEN]

Im starting my first playtrought on my pc, ill wait

 

[SafeOrAlone]

This game frustrated me the whole way through, from annoying encounter design to poor controls. But there were moments that shined through, such as brief tense sections of survival in the "open world", or especially the last level which finally gave me the creepy atmosphere I was looking for. I remember walking into a room and seeing a bunch of bones just floating up in the corner and thinking - damn that is effectively creepy. I might have to play the game again just to retread this moment.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Ill take your word on it over the developers of Metro Exodus. You seem to be more knowledgeable than the expert programmers of the game.

How about the words of someone who literally helped design the PS5 console?

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

How about the words of someone who literally helped design the PS5 console?

I usually ignore PR.

 

[Heisenberg007]

well I suppose this is confirmation that the PS5 does not support VRS.

Or just the confirmation that PS5 does not use the DX12U API (which we all knew was impossible) as the question mentioned.

 

[Whitecrow]

Ill take your word on it over the developers of Metro Exodus. You seem to be more knowledgeable than the expert programmers of the game.

I'll take the word of the main architect of the system over the word of third party devs.



Also another dev said this:


Not my fault if people keep missing cues since the beggining of times.

PS5 may not have RDNA2 VRS, but they've built something that when used properly can be better, so, PS5 not having VRS should worry noone.

 

[kyussman]

Good stuff,I'll play through this again when I get my PS5...I'll probably do the whole trilogy again actually.4A are great devs.....put a lot of the bigger devs to shame tbh.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

VRS so far is shit anyway so not a big loss on PS5, but still hardware in this console is like a weird mix of RDNA1, 2 and something else:

MASSIVE performance gains of VRS tier 2

You're entirely missing the whole point of the feature. VRS isn't about some massive DLSS like boost to performance, or the kind of boost you would get from a major drop in resolution. It's about saving shading power on things that don't need it because it wouldn't change the visual result, and thus would be wasted. Getting just that piece of shading power back in the scenes that have less need for it can be crucial in getting that extra 2--5fps that keeps you above your 30fps budget or your 60fps budget.

It's about helping you to get that extra smidge of performance back that could be used to help deliver a more consistent overall framerate experience, and even those results showcase it's doing its job. VRS is needed much less in cases where a game is clearly already shooting well past 60fps, or at obscene performance levels such as 140fps. Why would there need to be a drastic change in performance with VRS on when you're already hitting 140fps?

And if 120fps is your goal, you see a case where with VRS off you're under your 120fps mark, but with VRS on you're hitting 123fps, giving you a small cushion above 120fps. You dismiss VRS because you don't seem to understand what makes it so valuable. Optimizations. Every little bit wherever you can manage to get it counts.

 

[FlyyGOD]

I'll take the word of the main architect of the system over the word of third party devs.



Also another dev said this:


Not my fault if people keep missing cues since the beggining of times.

PS5 may not have RDNA2 VRS, but they've built something that when used properly can be better, so, PS5 not having VRS should worry noone.

Series x/s has tier 2 vrs . Not sure what Sony is doing because they've been silent about RDNA 2 features on the silicon.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I'll take the word of the main architect of the system over the word of third party devs.



Also another dev said this:


Not my fault if people keep missing cues since the beggining of times.

PS5 may not have RDNA2 VRS, but they've built something that when used properly can be better, so, PS5 not having VRS should worry noone.

I've said this before, but it has to be repeated. The Geometry Engine and the Primitive Shader feature isn't in competition with VRS or vice versa. There is no victory or win in one being better than the other. They are both quite useful and for two entirely different performance optimization related purposes. Both are fantastic at what they do. If you only had to have just one, I suppose the Geometry Engine with Prim Shaders makes sense, but then there are very valid reasons for choosing VRS as well, one being it's much easier to implement into your existing game pipeliine.

But what if you don't have to make that choice? What if you have the luxury of having the best of both worlds, like Nvidia RTX 2000/3000 Series GPUs, AMD RX 6000 series and Xbox Series X|S consoles all do? They each have Tier 2 VRS as well as Mesh Shaders.

And it isn't about missing cues. The very dev you mention says people are getting the wrong idea about what he said. I know because he told me so.





And the Metro devs aren't just some random nobodies. They're one of the more technically gifted game studios out there. If they state they're using a version of VRS they used for PS4 and updated for PS5, presumably a software approach like what was used by the Call of Duty devs also on PS4, I would take this to mean there is no built in hardware functionality. This doesn't have to mean it somehow isn't good. Many techniques start out as software approaches before they end up being implemented in hardware.

 

[Tickle My Tendies]

As far as brushing off VRS due to only "10 percent fps gain," I mean, how many games get dinged for targetting 60 but having some dips here and there? That 10 percent gain from VRS could be the different between completely locked 60 and those dips, couldn't it?

10 percent isn't nothing

In terms of average FPS performance, A 2080 Super is about 10 percent faster than a 2080, a 3070 is about 10 percent faster than a 3060 Ti, you are looking at 100 dollar difference in price between those cards

 

[Whitecrow]

I've said this before, but it has to be repeated. The Geometry Engine and the Primitive Shader feature isn't in competition with VRS or vice versa. There is no victory or win in one being better than the other. They are both quite useful and for two entirely different performance optimization related purposes. Both are fantastic at what they do. If you only had to have just one, I suppose the Geometry Engine with Prim Shaders makes sense, but then there are very valid reasons for choosing VRS as well, one being it's much easier to implement into your existing game pipeliine.

But what if you don't have to make that choice? What if you have the luxury of having the best of both worlds, like Nvidia RTX 2000/3000 Series GPUs, AMD RX 6000 series and Xbox Series X|S consoles all do? They each have Tier 2 VRS as well as Mesh Shaders.

And it isn't about missing cues. The very dev you mention says people are getting the wrong idea about what he said. I know because he told me so.





And the Metro devs aren't just some random nobodies. They're one of the more technically gifted game studios out there. If they state they're using a version of VRS they used for PS4 and updated for PS5, presumably a software approach like what was used by the Call of Duty devs also on PS4, I would take this to mean there is no built in hardware functionality. This doesn't have to mean it somehow isn't good. Many techniques start out as software approaches before they end up being implemented in hardware.

GE suposedly can get rid of the data that VRS have to process in the first place, among other things, since it's a multipurpose flexible system.
We shouldnt expect devs using GE to its full potential in the first batch of games.

I'm sure Sony first party will deliver in due time. Just as PS3 with the SPUs.

 

[D.Final]

Good stuff,I'll play through this again when I get my PS5...I'll probably do the whole trilogy again actually.4A are great devs.....put a lot of the bigger devs to shame tbh.

The time matters

 

[SenjutsuSage]

GE suposedly can get rid of the data that VRS have to process in the first place, among other things, since it's a multipurpose flexible system.
We shouldnt expect devs using GE to its full potential in the first batch of games.

I'm sure Sony first party will deliver in due time. Just as PS3 with the SPUs.

You're correct to a degree, but VRS isn't really about what you aren't seeing. It's about what you're actually able to see, and how much shading power should be dedicated to a given area of what's visible on screen. So the Geometry Engine or Primitive Shaders is not taking VRS's job or making VRS irrelevant. It's instead saving the GPU as a whole (ignore VRS right now) from bothering to render or shade anything that can't even be seen by the player, or unseen parts of an object that is not fully visible.

VRS is about shading rate. There's nothing to adjust shading rate for if it isn't on screen in the first place. So it's less about getting rid of work that VRS has to process. That's not how it should be viewed. The ultimate goal isn't just getting rid of needless geometry that isn't even visible faster, but also about not shading any of that unseen geometry that's also off-screen. So, as you can see, you're not robbing VRS of its job exactly, you're sparing the GPU itself from all unnecessary shading.

VRS is about what you can actually see. The geometry engine then, if it's freeing the GPU of things not seen that it no longer has to shade, that means you're also doing things that will automatically help VRS do its job even better since it's job is to adjust shading rate in visible areas where it's not needed. In other words, they compliment one another and should be working together. It makes more sense for VRS and the Geometry Engine to be together because they're highly complimentary.

That's exactly the role that Mesh Shaders and VRS Tier 2 can/will play in RTX 2000/3000 series GPUs, the RX 6000 series GPUs and Xbox Series X|S. They'll work together in a very complimentary fashion.

 

[Whitecrow]

You're correct to a degree, but VRS isn't really about what you aren't seeing. It's about what you're actually able to see, and how much shading power should be dedicated to a given area of what's visible on screen. So the Geometry Engine or Primitive Shaders is not taking VRS's job or making VRS irrelevant. It's instead saving the GPU as a whole (ignore VRS right now) from bothering to render or shade anything that can't even be seen by the player, or unseen parts of an object that is not fully visible.

VRS is about shading rate. There's nothing to adjust shading rate for if it isn't on screen in the first place. So it's less about getting rid of work that VRS has to process. That's not how it should be viewed. The ultimate goal isn't just getting rid of needless geometry that isn't even visible faster, but also about not shading any of that unseen geometry that's also off-screen. So, as you can see, you're not robbing VRS of its job exactly, you're sparing the GPU itself from all unnecessary shading.

VRS is about what you can actually see. The geometry engine then, if it's freeing the GPU of things not seen that it no longer has to shade, that means you're also doing things that will automatically help VRS do its job even better since it's job is to adjust shading rate in visible areas where it's not needed. In other words, they compliment one another and should be working together. It makes more sense for VRS and the Geometry Engine to be together because they're highly complimentary.

That's exactly the role that Mesh Shaders and VRS Tier 2 can/will play in RTX 2000/3000 series GPUs, the RX 6000 series GPUs and Xbox Series X|S. They'll work together in a very complimentary fashion.

Appreciate the explanation : )

 

[Insane Metal]

good interview on wccftech

4A Games Tech Q&A - RTX 3000 Is in a 'Different League' for RT Performance, But AMD's Approach Is More Flexible

4A Games CTO Oleksandr Shyshkovtsov talks to us about next-generation consoles and GPUs, ray tracing implementations and a lot more.

wccftech.com

Wait what? About the same performance and resolution on PS5 and Series X? But what about that 40% difference?

 

[Insane Metal]

Input lag.... Be gone...
I'll blow the wind of God.

If I've ever seen a demon... this is it.

 

[Negotiator101]

How can the PS5 version have VRS when the PS5 RDNA 0.00001 GPU doesnt support it?

Software based VRS is a thing as well, possibly that?

 

[BLAUcopter]

what the hell is up with all those companies making enhanced versions of games that already look great? Wouldn't be better instead of spending resources for "enhanced games" to make actually new games? I

Nofunallowed.jpg

 

[Shmunter]

Wait what? About the same performance and resolution on PS5 and Series X? But what about that 40% difference?

Well they bagged the XsS, would be poor form to also take the XsX to task.

 

[Negotiator101]

Wait what? About the same performance and resolution on PS5 and Series X? But what about that 40% difference?

To use an old comment, Agent 47 says "hi".

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Call of Duty Cold War uses it. And at 60fps.

Best bit about this is that you can turn it off and get 120hz.

 

[RPSleon]

I ll believe it when I ll see it.
If Series S plays Exodus at 60 with full RT GI then Control devs need to be executed... publicly.

It wont. And they dont.

I hope thats just a really bad joke. Comes across quite angry!

 

[cromofo]

Metro Exodus is the best looking game I've ever played. The raytracing is just top notch.

More raytracing and DLSS 2.0 is music to my ears

 

[totallydied]

I’m