• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Metroid Prime: Federation Force Review Thread

tryptobphan

Member
Mar 22, 2012
536
0
635
What does it change to anything I said? It's been six years that part of the fanbase hurls insults at Nintendo and developers such as Sakamoto, Tanabe or Next Level Games saying they shouldn't touch the series ever again, and that any attempt at doing anything with Metroid, even something as mundane as releasing Other M on the eShop or having a Metroid themed activity in Nintendo Land, is met with over the top harassment, peaking with the sabotaging of the Federation Force launch even before anybody could touch the game. If that's not being toxic, what is? Were Mario fans harassing Nintendo when they released a Mario spin-off, when Yoshi's Story released on the eShop, or when Nintendo Land was revealed to have a Mario activity?

As for the other games, in the latest Metroid Fusion NeoGAF thread I've read, people who said they really liked the game were trashed by many people who also trashed Federation Force without playing it, because you see, Fusion is way too linear and has too much dialogue and story and is therefore a disgrace to the Metroid name. The same purists generally go like this:

- NES Metroid is now unplayable.
- Metroid II is now unplayable, and Nintendo are bastards for not allowing AM2R, a game which straight rips Metroid II's level design and concept and Metroid Zero Mission's visuals.
- Super Metroid is God incarnate, but nobody should buy it on the eShop because Nintendo are bastards and released an unplayable version of the game.
- Metroid Fusion is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Prime Echoes is too slow and purple and painful and derivative.
- Metroid Prime Corruption is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Other M is Satan incarnate.

... which leaves only three games in the whole series that satisfy them, that are basically all variants of Super Metroid.

If you add to this that Metroid doesn't sell, that its maze/"figure out where to go next" design is nowadays really unpopular and even the Metroid Prime Trilogy sold poorly despite being full of amazing content on Nintendo's most popular console, that makes the series a risky bet for development money. Some people can victimize themselves as customers all they want, from a producer's point of view, their money can be better invested elsewhere given all those circumstances, nobody wants to invest in a niche audience when that audience repeatedly trashes you. In fact, at this point their best bet is to ignore that base entirely, ironically.

Wow. I have been staying quiet on Metroid threads for obvious reasons especially with how emotional people are getting...but I have to post and applaud your post. I think you summarize the general feeling I get about the fan base and their thoughts of the games. It's really unfortunate the way things turned out. I like all the games including the one that's Satan Incarnate but it seems most (or just the vocal niche) just trash every game that isn't Super or Prime.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,560
6,206
840
Wait, what? What happened with Super Metroid on the eShop?

I think he's referring to that the EU Wii U eShop version is based on the 50hz version of Super Metroid. And unplayable is an exaggeration.

The N3DS eShop version is based on the 60hz USA version and better.
 

RK128

Member
Jan 6, 2014
12,576
7
460
twitter.com
What does it change to anything I said? It's been six years that part of the fanbase hurls insults at Nintendo and developers such as Sakamoto, Tanabe or Next Level Games saying they shouldn't touch the series ever again, and that any attempt at doing anything with Metroid, even something as mundane as releasing Other M on the eShop or having a Metroid themed activity in Nintendo Land, is met with over the top harassment, peaking with the sabotaging of the Federation Force launch even before anybody could touch the game. If that's not being toxic, what is? Were Mario fans harassing Nintendo when they released a Mario spin-off, when Yoshi's Story released on the eShop, or when Nintendo Land was revealed to have a Mario activity?

As for the other games, in the latest Metroid Fusion NeoGAF thread I've read, people who said they really liked the game were trashed by many people who also trashed Federation Force without playing it, because you see, Fusion is way too linear and has too much dialogue and story and is therefore a disgrace to the Metroid name. The same purists generally go like this:

- NES Metroid is now unplayable.
- Metroid II is now unplayable, and Nintendo are bastards for not allowing AM2R, a game which straight rips Metroid II's level design and concept and Metroid Zero Mission's visuals.
- Super Metroid is God incarnate, but nobody should buy it on the eShop because Nintendo are bastards and released an unplayable version of the game.
- Metroid Fusion is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Prime Echoes is too slow and purple and painful and derivative.
- Metroid Prime Corruption is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Other M is Satan incarnate.

... which leaves only three games in the whole series that satisfy them, that are basically all variants of Super Metroid.

If you add to this that Metroid doesn't sell, that its maze/"figure out where to go next" design is nowadays really unpopular and even the Metroid Prime Trilogy sold poorly despite being full of amazing content on Nintendo's most popular console, that makes the series a risky bet for development money. Some people can victimize themselves as customers all they want, from a producer's point of view, their money can be better invested elsewhere given all those circumstances, nobody wants to invest in a niche audience when that audience repeatedly trashes you. In fact, at this point their best bet is to ignore that base entirely, ironically.

Okay, I'm a bit frustrated by Nintendo mismanaging the Metroid IP personally despite having interest in Federation Force & really liking the gameplay I saw of it. But you are coming of too antagonistic and bile toward the Metroid fan base.

They got NOTHING for six years and many people loved & enjoyed the games you listed that people had issues with.
-The first two Metroids are iconic games and despite aging, are fun titles
-Super Metroid IS a fantastic game and desirves the reception it got
-The Prime trilogy is great and while Echo's & Courrption have issues, they are still fantastic games
-Other M is horrible if you count the story but if you can ignore it (very hard for me personally :() its a fun mindless action game. Just a very poor Metroid game sadly but not a bad game overall.

Metroid is a series that does alot right and people have a right to want more. People were sour about AM2R being taken down because it was a NEW 2D Metroid game, something Nintendo hasn't produced in 12 years.....of course the fan base will be pissed that the only new traditional game in ages got DMCA takedown's (even if Nintendo had the legal right to do this & that the developer behind the fan game could have pitched the game to Nintendo).

Federation Force shows the darker side of the Metroid fan base, as the backlash it got is a blend of three things; pent up anger toward Other M's issues, the lack of a mainline game in a long time, & the game not being a traditional Metroid game.

Critics state that the game is mixed; you either love the game or you hate it, but in the end Federation Force is just a 'okay' or 'good' game. Not the horrible waste of a game its made out to be online.

You have the right to be upset with the sometimes 'silly' reaction of Metroid fans have toward the series now, but look at it this way; what happens if your favorite franchise is put on hiatus for years after a game you might dislike releases in that same series and the only new game in the series is a spin-off you might not be super interested in.

But this is NeoGaf, one of the most toxic places in the gaming community sometimes, so what do I know, right?
 
Jan 18, 2013
10,402
4
0
Wow. I have been staying quiet on Metroid threads for obvious reasons especially with how emotional people are getting...but I have to post and applaud your post. I think you summarize the general feeling I get about the fan base and their thoughts of the games. It's really unfortunate the way things turned out. I like all the games including the one that's Satan Incarnate but it seems most (or just the vocal niche) just trash every game that isn't Super or Prime.

Don't take what Simbabbad said there to heart too much, from what I've seen (s)he is just a really strong fan of Other M, but... is a little bitter they're quite alone on that front, I guess.

I'd say if you asked people if they liked any given game that isn't other M (or federation force), and perhaps the original 2 which aged poorly (and now have much better remakes with more positive reception), you're going to get far more "yep, liked that game!" than otherwise.
 

ASIS

Member
Apr 7, 2008
8,483
0
0
31
Just like how racism is not limited to people who wear klan hoods and also includes subtler racism, misogyny isn't just limited to men with wifebeaters who get drunk and hit their wives.

It is not limited to wifebeaters who get drunk and hit their wives but that doesn't mean that any situation where a man has authority over a woman is considered misogyny either. Especially when it comes to the military.
 

RK128

Member
Jan 6, 2014
12,576
7
460
twitter.com
Don't take what Simbabbad said there to heart too much, from what I've seen (s)he is just a really strong fan of Other M, but... is a little bitter they're quite alone on that front, I guess.

I'd say if you asked people if they liked any given game that isn't other M (or federation force), and perhaps the original 2 which aged poorly (and now have much better remakes with more positive reception), you're going to get far more "yep, liked that game!" than otherwise.

This explains things. Thank you for pointing that out Linkstrikesback.

I get that feeling, as I enjoy the Sonic series and most people on here hate that franchise. But saying that Metroid fans have no reason to be bitter is really surprising, as they HAVE good reasons to be upset.
 

Griss

Member
Sep 26, 2013
11,685
13
515
Dublin, Ireland
- NES Metroid is now unplayable.
- Metroid II is now unplayable, and Nintendo are bastards for not allowing AM2R, a game which straight rips Metroid II's level design and concept and Metroid Zero Mission's visuals.
- Super Metroid is God incarnate, but nobody should buy it on the eShop because Nintendo are bastards and released an unplayable version of the game.
- Metroid Fusion is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Prime Echoes is too slow and purple and painful and derivative.
- Metroid Prime Corruption is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Other M is Satan incarnate.

The majority of Metroid fans love all the games except Other M. The criticisms you've typed out here, while indeed common, are simply used to 'order' the games in terms of quality, rather than say they're shit.

For example, Echoes being too slow and purple is something I agree with if I take it to mean that the dark world was a poor, dull addition, but only in comparison to some other Metroid games and Prime and Prime 3 - on its own I feel like Echoes is a 10/10 game. It's just competing with other 10/10 games. And so on for the others.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
Don't take what Simbabbad said there to heart too much, from what I've seen (s)he is just a really strong fan of Other M, but... is a little bitter they're quite alone on that front, I guess.

I'd say if you asked people if they liked any given game that isn't other M (or federation force), and perhaps the original 2 which aged poorly (and now have much better remakes with more positive reception), you're going to get far more "yep, liked that game!" than otherwise.
Simbabbad's post is equivalent to saying Zelda fans hate the entire Zelda series because they always argue over the quality of the games.

Most Metroid fans like Fusion, Prime 2, Prime 3, Zero Mission, Metroid 2, and even the original. Some don't like a few of those, just like some Zelda fans don't like Twilight Princess or Majora's Mask or Zelda 2 or Wind Waker the original Legend of Zelda. Some fans like those but will still point out weaknesses, like how a Zelda fan might like Wind Waker but admit the dungeons kinda suck.

That's normal for a series with 11 games. It's just that, as you said, Simbabbad sems bitter that Other M is so unpopular among the fanbase. So bitter all they can do is go "Metroid fans are terrible, they don't like anything" as if we weren't still enjoying and talking about most Metroid games.
 

James Scott

Banned
May 24, 2014
11,385
2
0
What does it change to anything I said? It's been six years that part of the fanbase hurls insults at Nintendo and developers such as Sakamoto, Tanabe or Next Level Games saying they shouldn't touch the series ever again, and that any attempt at doing anything with Metroid, even something as mundane as releasing Other M on the eShop or having a Metroid themed activity in Nintendo Land, is met with over the top harassment, peaking with the sabotaging of the Federation Force launch even before anybody could touch the game. If that's not being toxic, what is? Were Mario fans harassing Nintendo when they released a Mario spin-off, when Yoshi's Story released on the eShop, or when Nintendo Land was revealed to have a Mario activity?

As for the other games, in the latest Metroid Fusion NeoGAF thread I've read, people who said they really liked the game were trashed by many people who also trashed Federation Force without playing it, because you see, Fusion is way too linear and has too much dialogue and story and is therefore a disgrace to the Metroid name. The same purists generally go like this:

- NES Metroid is now unplayable.
- Metroid II is now unplayable, and Nintendo are bastards for not allowing AM2R, a game which straight rips Metroid II's level design and concept and Metroid Zero Mission's visuals.
- Super Metroid is God incarnate, but nobody should buy it on the eShop because Nintendo are bastards and released an unplayable version of the game.
- Metroid Fusion is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Prime Echoes is too slow and purple and painful and derivative.
- Metroid Prime Corruption is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Other M is Satan incarnate.

... which leaves only three games in the whole series that satisfy them, that are basically all variants of Super Metroid.

If you add to this that Metroid doesn't sell, that its maze/"figure out where to go next" design is nowadays really unpopular and even the Metroid Prime Trilogy sold poorly despite being full of amazing content on Nintendo's most popular console, that makes the series a risky bet for development money. Some people can victimize themselves as customers all they want, from a producer's point of view, their money can be better invested elsewhere given all those circumstances, nobody wants to invest in a niche audience when that audience repeatedly trashes you. In fact, at this point their best bet is to ignore that base entirely, ironically.
Yeah, I've noticed all that. Not to say Metroid fans should be ecstatic about the last two games, but the way they behave and trying to sabotage new releases for a franchise that's expensive to produce and considerably more niche than something like Zelda, it's hard to see Nintendo being too happy with the prospect of future installments.
It's also not like Other M was a cheap cash grab effort, they gave it to an acclaimed studio and with a lot of input from the Metroid franchise lead, Sakamoto. It's not even in the leagues of bad games like Sonic 06 and Silent Hill Homecoming.
also Super Metroid isn't even that good, I like it considerably less than the two GBA ones and Prime 3
 

me0wish

Member
Jun 1, 2014
1,853
233
615
What does it change to anything I said? It's been six years that part of the fanbase hurls insults at Nintendo and developers such as Sakamoto, Tanabe or Next Level Games saying they shouldn't touch the series ever again, and that any attempt at doing anything with Metroid, even something as mundane as releasing Other M on the eShop or having a Metroid themed activity in Nintendo Land, is met with over the top harassment, peaking with the sabotaging of the Federation Force launch even before anybody could touch the game. If that's not being toxic, what is? Were Mario fans harassing Nintendo when they released a Mario spin-off, when Yoshi's Story released on the eShop, or when Nintendo Land was revealed to have a Mario activity?

As for the other games, in the latest Metroid Fusion NeoGAF thread I've read, people who said they really liked the game were trashed by many people who also trashed Federation Force without playing it, because you see, Fusion is way too linear and has too much dialogue and story and is therefore a disgrace to the Metroid name. The same purists generally go like this:

- NES Metroid is now unplayable.
- Metroid II is now unplayable, and Nintendo are bastards for not allowing AM2R, a game which straight rips Metroid II's level design and concept and Metroid Zero Mission's visuals.
- Super Metroid is God incarnate, but nobody should buy it on the eShop because Nintendo are bastards and released an unplayable version of the game.
- Metroid Fusion is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Prime Echoes is too slow and purple and painful and derivative.
- Metroid Prime Corruption is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Other M is Satan incarnate.

... which leaves only three games in the whole series that satisfy them, that are basically all variants of Super Metroid.

If you add to this that Metroid doesn't sell, that its maze/"figure out where to go next" design is nowadays really unpopular and even the Metroid Prime Trilogy sold poorly despite being full of amazing content on Nintendo's most popular console, that makes the series a risky bet for development money. Some people can victimize themselves as customers all they want, from a producer's point of view, their money can be better invested elsewhere given all those circumstances, nobody wants to invest in a niche audience when that audience repeatedly trashes you. In fact, at this point their best bet is to ignore that base entirely, ironically.

This reminds me of the Silent Hill fanatics. Metroid fan base is reaching the level of Kojima Kids in terms of redicilousness.

One of my friends Pirated FF just to boast about him not giving a penny to Nintendo and contributing to the death of FF.
 

Simbabbad

Member
Nov 26, 2014
1,881
15
435
Except for you know, how Nintendo discontinued the Prime Trilogy incredibly early, only a few months after it was released.

How much did MPT sell again? I heard it was around 600,000, which I think is pretty impressive considering it was basically a rare collectors item.
How did it sell on the eShop, you think? Nintendo has all the sales data, they know it doesn't sell. Otherwise, why put it on discount at the eShop launch (when many other games didn't have that discount) and throw the formula over its head in new games? The series never was a big seller compared to the cost.

Presumably he's in Europe and talking about how they put the 50Hz version up for wii u (and perhaps 3ds).
Not just that, people were also hyperbolically upset about the Wii U NA version for some reason. I'm sure one can find more about it in the related Nintendo Downloads thread.

Wow. I have been staying quiet on Metroid threads for obvious reasons especially with how emotional people are getting...but I have to post and applaud your post. I think you summarize the general feeling I get about the fan base and their thoughts of the games. It's really unfortunate the way things turned out. I like all the games including the one that's Satan Incarnate but it seems most (or just the vocal niche) just trash every game that isn't Super or Prime.
Thanks a lot for this post. I also love every single Metroid game (Returns of Samus is actually my favourite), and it's disheartening to see so-called "fans" thrash more than half of the series because it's not exactly Super Metroid.

from what I've seen (s)he is just a really strong fan of Other M
Nope, I just enjoyed the game a lot, just like I like tons of other games just as much, I'm certainly not "a fan" and even less a "strong fan", where are you taking this from? You remind me of people who label people looking forward to Paper Mario Color Splash "Sticker Star fans". The fact the person you reply to starts with "I have been staying quiet on Metroid threads for obvious reasons especially with how emotional people are getting" should tell you A LOT of people are fed up with how Metroid threads turn out and how the series potential is threatened because of a vocal minority.

But I guess since that person happened to like Other M too, you'll tell other people "don't take what tryptobphan said there to heart too much"?
 

CoffeeJanitor

Member
Jul 13, 2010
13,917
1
0
Okay, I'm a bit frustrated by Nintendo mismanaging the Metroid IP personally despite having interest in Federation Force & really liking the gameplay I saw of it. But you are coming of too antagonistic and bile toward the Metroid fan base.

They got NOTHING for six years and many people loved & enjoyed the games you listed that people had issues with.
-The first two Metroids are iconic games and despite aging, are fun titles
-Super Metroid IS a fantastic game and desirves the reception it got
-The Prime trilogy is great and while Echo's & Courrption have issues, they are still fantastic games
-Other M is horrible if you count the story but if you can ignore it (very hard for me personally :() its a fun mindless action game. Just a very poor Metroid game sadly but not a bad game overall.

Metroid is a series that does alot right and people have a right to want more. People were sour about AM2R being taken down because it was a NEW 2D Metroid game, something Nintendo hasn't produced in 12 years.....of course the fan base will be pissed that the only new traditional game in ages got DMCA takedown's (even if Nintendo had the legal right to do this & that the developer behind the fan game could have pitched the game to Nintendo).

Federation Force shows the darker side of the Metroid fan base, as the backlash it got is a blend of three things; pent up anger toward Other M's issues, the lack of a mainline game in a long time, & the game not being a traditional Metroid game.

Critics state that the game is mixed; you either love the game or you hate it, but in the end Federation Force is just a 'okay' or 'good' game. Not the horrible waste of a game its made out to be online.

You have the right to be upset with the sometimes 'silly' reaction of Metroid fans have toward the series now, but look at it this way; what happens if your favorite franchise is put on hiatus for years after a game you might dislike releases in that same series and the only new game in the series is a spin-off you might not be super interested in.

But this is NeoGaf, one of the most toxic places in the gaming community sometimes, so what do I know, right?
pretty much

Also the last game we got was Other M, which was just a bad game overall let alone a bad metroid game
 

Simbabbad

Member
Nov 26, 2014
1,881
15
435
what happens if your favorite franchise is put on hiatus for years after a game you might dislike releases in that same series and the only new game in the series is a spin-off you might not be super interested in.
Then you do something else, and don't sabotage their efforts and let them succeed or fail on their own merits? And don't throw yourself on people's throat for liking or looking forward to this or that game, or for finding faults in Super Metroid? It's not like there's a lack of games to play.

I started gaming on personal computers, all the series I grew up with are either dead or mismanaged. I never threw a fit about it, I found my gaming elsewhere.
 

RK128

Member
Jan 6, 2014
12,576
7
460
twitter.com
Then you do something else? It's not like there's a lack of games to play.

I started gaming on personal computers, all the series I grew up with are either dead or mismanaged. I never threw a fit about it, I found my gaming elsewhere.

Thats......a good answer honestly. I disagree strongly with you thoughts on how Nintendo should just 'end' the series if the fan base it to 'toxic' but you are right; other games are out there if you are tired of a series you really like or don't enjoy the direction it goes in.

Metroid fans could play Axiom Verger for example if they want a 2D-Metroid like title to sink their teeth into. Not exactly Metroid but still close enough to make most fans happy.

People have a right to be upset about how Nintendo mismanages the Metroid IP though, regardless if there is other games to play in the meantime until they sort things out.
 
Jan 18, 2013
10,402
4
0
Then you do something else, and don't sabotage their efforts and let them succeed or fail on their own merits? And don't throw yourself on people's throat for liking or looking forward to this or that game, or for finding faults in Super Metroid? It's not like there's a lack of games to play.

I started gaming on personal computers, all the series I grew up with are either dead or mismanaged. I never threw a fit about it, I found my gaming elsewhere.

The series is potentially in peril because of Nintendo making mediocre games (at least in comparision to the previous entries), not because the fans reaction to said games.

Nintendo earnt the backlash, and no amount of unearnt asskissing will make good metroid games appear again. The current situation is 100% Nintendos problem/fault and nobody elses.

Metroid fans could play Axiom Verger for example if they want a 2D-Metroid like title to sink their teeth into. Not exactly Metroid but still close enough to make most fans happy.

Axiom verge wasn't that great, certainly not compared to ye olde metroid, and certainly didn't scratch my metroid itch.

You only have to look at the excellent positive reaction to AM2R to see that there is a way to make the metroid fanbase happy, but it's not the direction Nintendo seemed to want to take the series over the last decade or so for whatever reason.
 

jnWake

Member
Mar 30, 2013
4,440
1
0
Generalizations are always inaccurate but it's undeniable that GAF houses some really annoying Metroid fans. The "Retro making fucking Donkey Kong" thread is the biggest proof of that.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
It is not limited to wifebeaters who get drunk and hit their wives but that doesn't mean that any situation where a man has authority over a woman is considered misogyny either. Especially when it comes to the military.
I can't think of anything more misogynistic than a woman thanking a man for shooting her in the back for no good reason.

Please tell me how that garbage fits under normal military authority. Is it generally acceptable in the military for officers to assault their subordinates and get themselves and most of their units killed due to incompetence?

The entire Sector Zero scene is one of the most vile things I've seen in a video game.
 

Nerrel

Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,631
0
0
As for the other games, in the latest Metroid Fusion NeoGAF thread I've read, people who said they really liked the game were trashed by many people who also trashed Federation Force without playing it, because you see, Fusion is way too linear and has too much dialogue and story and is therefore a disgrace to the Metroid name. The same purists generally go like this:

- NES Metroid is now unplayable.
- Metroid II is now unplayable, and Nintendo are bastards for not allowing AM2R, a game which straight rips Metroid II's level design and concept and Metroid Zero Mission's visuals.
- Super Metroid is God incarnate, but nobody should buy it on the eShop because Nintendo are bastards and released an unplayable version of the game.
- Metroid Fusion is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Prime Echoes is too slow and purple and painful and derivative.
- Metroid Prime Corruption is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Other M is Satan incarnate.

... which leaves only three games in the whole series that satisfy them, that are basically all variants of Super Metroid.

If you add to this that Metroid doesn

You are really overstating how much people dislike those games. Everyone loves the Prime trilogy. Just because they nitpick about which game is better doesn't mean that somehow the fanbase has rejected any of those games. Fusion and Zero Mission are both beloved games that people really enjoy; again, criticizing a few faults doesn't mean that the games are considered failures by fans. By that same logic, you could say that Mario has the exact same problem since people complained about Sunshine and 3D World, and Zelda is even worse off with fans heavily criticizing Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword in a row. There's nothing unusual or unique about the way Metroid fans have received these games.

Other M and Federation Force are the only two games where your point about fan rejection holds up, and both games very clearly deserve it. Say whatever you want about Metroid not selling well, but there was a period from Fusion through Other M where the series was doing pretty well. The games had found their audience and the series was healthy for the first time in its history. Nintendo wrecked that with Other M, and they only made things worse by following up on it with a chibi spinoff with very little in the way of true Metroid gameplay.

I'm not saying that fans haven't gone a little over the top lately, but Nintendo made this mess themselves.
 

gafneo

Banned
Jun 2, 2013
3,998
1
0
Wow, better game than I expected. Lives up to the Nintendo brand. Much of the Metriod style parts are welcome, but this is more of a brand new game alltogether. It is a near perfect game with a massive campaign. I did pretty good at solo for being a newb at shooters. Maybe not too challenging, but there is a hard mode that unlocks for diehards. Level 18 is probably the only stage that is a pain in the ass while playing by yourself, but can be done if repair health pac kits are tossed at the engine.
 

Simbabbad

Member
Nov 26, 2014
1,881
15
435
Thats......a good answer honestly. I disagree strongly with you thoughts on how Nintendo should just 'end' the series if the fan base it to 'toxic' but you are right; other games are out there if you are tired of a series you really like or don't enjoy the direction it goes in. [...]

People have a right to be upset about how Nintendo mismanages the Metroid IP though, regardless if there is other games to play in the meantime until they sort things out.
There's being upset and then there's being toxic. I hated Paper Mario Sticker Star to the point I think it's astonishing it shipped as it is, but I'm still looking forward to Color Splash simply because it looks fun (and I'm not trashing people who liked Sticker Star, I'm genuinely intrigued about it). Sure, it may end up having the same faults as Sticker Star, but until it releases and we know if it's good or not, I don't see the point in starting a hate campaign. If after release it's really obvious it's not good, then I won't buy it and do something else, and if I give it a chance and I'm disappointed, then I'll sell it and do something else. And if I'm enjoying it, great!

I'm not saying Nintendo "should" end the series, I'm saying it's the conclusion a random producer would get to given the circumstances. There are eye-rolling elements in Other M (mostly the recycling with Fusion and minor narrative stuff IMO), but I loved it in part because it tried things, just like the first three games stand on extremely distinct foundations while keeping similar roots. Likewise, at first I was disappointed with the linear aspect of Fusion, but it worked very well, and now I love it.

The problem with the current hate campaigns is that it freezes initiative. The hate against Federation Force started way before anybody could know if it was good or not, meanwhile, you can do basically all you want with Kirby and nobody minds.

I can't think of anything more misogynistic than a woman thanking a man for shooting her in the back for no good reason.
He shot her in the back because:

- He knows she's much more powerful than him, and he would have had no chance hitting her from the front.

- He knows she's such a amazing person she was going to sacrifice herself to kill the Metroids and save mankind, and wanted to stop her from doing that.

- He's going to sacrifice himself instead to save both mankind and her, because he thinks she's a much more important and better person than he is.

It's all said in the story. "I can't think of anything more misogynistic", sure. It's not like "secondary character friend of the hero knocks out the hero to sacrifice himself instead of his friend" is something particularly rare or offensive, but let's conveniently ignore all of that.

You know what? YOU are misogynistic, because you'd accept a man being in Samus's role in that narrative trope, and not a woman.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
Feb 6, 2016
5,324
0
280
Say whatever you want about Metroid not selling well, but there was a period from Fusion through Other M where the series was doing pretty well. The games had found their audience and the series was healthy for the first time in its history. Nintendo wrecked that with Other M, and they only made things worse by following up on it with a chibi spinoff with very little in the way of true Metroid gameplay.

People love to ignore this when sticking up to their "it never really sold that well anyway!" argument, but while we may not have sale figures, it's OBVIOUS that during that period Nintendo had found a sweet spot for the games' budgets and sale expectations and the game were clearly profitable for them, unless they were running a charity for Metroid fans or something. I mean they were comfortable enough with the series' sales to make Prime Hunters their flagship online multiplayer DS game and even make a damn Pinball game, c'mon.

It all went downhill with Other M just like the true 'hate' from the fanbase started with that game. Arguably the first truly bad game in the series. That's when the series "died" and they're putting the final nail in the coffin after all this time with no games with a weird co op spin off that doesn't appeal to anyone. Yes, gamers can be awful and extreme, and sadly there's a lot of that in the Metroid fanbase (just like in any other for that matter), but blaming the state of the series on them is disingenuous.

Metroid's future is uncertain because Nintendo released a bad product with an AAA budget and now is trying to sell a weird product with no proven audience, not because a portion of the fans wanted a game canceled instead of just complaining about it. Get real.

Oh and I'm sure finding what to do with Metroid must be really difficult in a climate where almost half of the indie market is making money on games inspired by the series lmao.
 

nluckett

Member
Jun 2, 2005
195
0
1,225
San Francisco
www.4colorrebellion.com
Haha. Always devolving into the same conversations in a Metroid thread.

Anyway, this game is a pretty nice little package. Next Level feels like a mini Retro (although lately Im not sure what Retro Studios is since all they've done is 2D DK for 2 generations) with this and LM2 really showing their finesse.

Im six missions in and so far it's a fun portable shooter. I like the collaborative puzzle solving aspect. Controls are tight once you get used to them. Going alone is challenging and feels like Im really fighting waves of enemies that might overtake me. When you play as Samus it's almost like every enemy is just a play thing. Here they feel more dangerous cuz you dont have Samus's cooler weapons or agility. Co-Op has been rock solid for me and led to a few thrilling moments.

I think the game looks great too. Strong clean art direction with everything readable on screen, nice UI elements, everything animated well.

Overall, yeah, maybe it's not a huge mainline entry, but it's fun and is scratching some part... maybe a part I didnt know I had... of my Metroid itch.

In the scheme of things it's a game Im glad got made and glad Im playing it.
 

gafneo

Banned
Jun 2, 2013
3,998
1
0
You are really overstating how much people dislike those games. Everyone loves the Prime trilogy. Just because they nitpick about which game is better doesn't mean that somehow the fanbase has rejected any of those games. Fusion and Zero Mission are both beloved games that people really enjoy; again, criticizing a few faults doesn't mean that the games are considered failures by fans. By that same logic, you could say that Mario has the exact same problem since people complained about Sunshine and 3D World, and Zelda is even worse off with fans heavily criticizing Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword in a row. There's nothing unusual or unique about the way Metroid fans have received these games.

Other M and Federation Force are the only two games where your point about fan rejection holds up, and both games very clearly deserve it. Say whatever you want about Metroid not selling well, but there was a period from Fusion through Other M where the series was doing pretty well. The games had found their audience and the series was healthy for the first time in its history. Nintendo wrecked that with Other M, and they only made things worse by following up on it with a chibi spinoff with very little in the way of true Metroid gameplay.

I'm not saying that fans haven't gone a little over the top lately, but Nintendo made this mess themselves.
I hate the Prime series with a passion. 2-3 are not just over rated, but terrible and broken choires to play. I would consider Prime 2 to be equally as bad as The Crow City of Angels on ps1 and the only quality represented here is the high production values. Underneath it's budget is a movie based game rushed to the market with a meriad of problems.
 

Brenal

Member
Sep 24, 2015
150
0
0
Good feeling shooting and nice mission variety are enough to sell me in, mission variety apears to be something NLG excells at , i ll check it out oncemy 3ds is repaired.
 

Simbabbad

Member
Nov 26, 2014
1,881
15
435
@Opa-Pa: 2D Metroid stopped after Zero Mission because the sales were poor, six years before Other M. Metroid Prime Corruption was an attempt to sell Wii controls for a hardcore game, and it had meh sales, hence the experimentation with Other M. The formula doesn't sell.

Anyway, some people are actually trying to talk about Federation Force here, so I'm out until I play it.

EDIT:

No Adam doesn't.
Er... yes he does. He shoots her to stop her going into the Metroid lair, and goes there himself. It's the whole point. Otherwise, why would he shoot her? Sport? You're making no sense.

He doesn't talk to her about it because obviously she wouldn't accept him sacrificing himself instead of her, but since he thinks she's more important than him, he does what he has to do. And she thanks him because he gives his life for her.

Nothing here is complicated or hard to understand, it's a classic trope.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
He shot her in the back because:

- He knows she's much more powerful than him, and he would have had no chance hitting her from the front.

- He knows she's such a amazing person she was going to sacrifice her to kill the Metroids and save mankind, and wanted to stop her from doing that.

- He's going to sacrifice himself instead to save both mankind and her, because he thinks she's a more important and better person than he is.

It's all said in the story. "I can't think of anything more misogynistic", sure. It's not like "secondary character friend of the hero knocks out the hero to sacrifice himself instead of the hero" is something particularly rare or offensive, but let's ignore all of that.
No Adam doesn't. He hasn't even talked to her about it. We've seen in the Ian flashback that Samus always follows his orders, so he has no actual reason to believe that.

So yes, Adam shot Samus in the back for no fucking reason. Hell, he even gives a non-answer when she asks the rational question "Why did you shoot me?" Instead of actually talking to her like an equal, he assaulted her, sacrificed himself in the most stupid way possible, and then she thanked him for shooting her and taking away her agency in the situation.

Fuck Other M.
You know what? YOU are misogynistic, because you'd accept a man being in Samus's role in that narrative trope, and not a woman.
I see we've reached Fox News level "you're the real racists for thinking that's racist" discourse.
 

Valen

Member
Oct 19, 2013
3,017
0
0
United States
What does it change to anything I said? It's been six years that part of the fanbase hurls insults at Nintendo and developers such as Sakamoto, Tanabe or Next Level Games saying they shouldn't touch the series ever again, and that any attempt at doing anything with Metroid, even something as mundane as releasing Other M on the eShop or having a Metroid themed activity in Nintendo Land, is met with over the top harassment, peaking with the sabotaging of the Federation Force launch even before anybody could touch the game. If that's not being toxic, what is? Were Mario fans harassing Nintendo when they released a Mario spin-off, when Yoshi's Story released on the eShop, or when Nintendo Land was revealed to have a Mario activity?

As for the other games, in the latest Metroid Fusion NeoGAF thread I've read, people who said they really liked the game were trashed by many people who also trashed Federation Force without playing it, because you see, Fusion is way too linear and has too much dialogue and story and is therefore a disgrace to the Metroid name. The same purists generally go like this:

- NES Metroid is now unplayable.
- Metroid II is now unplayable, and Nintendo are bastards for not allowing AM2R, a game which straight rips Metroid II's level design and concept and Metroid Zero Mission's visuals.
- Super Metroid is God incarnate, but nobody should buy it on the eShop because Nintendo are bastards and released an unplayable version of the game.
- Metroid Fusion is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Prime Echoes is too slow and purple and painful and derivative.
- Metroid Prime Corruption is too linear and has too much story and dialogue.
- Metroid Other M is Satan incarnate.

... which leaves only three games in the whole series that satisfy them, that are basically all variants of Super Metroid.

If you add to this that Metroid doesn't sell, that its maze/"figure out where to go next" design is nowadays really unpopular and even the Metroid Prime Trilogy sold poorly despite being full of amazing content on Nintendo's most popular console, that makes the series a risky bet for development money. Some people can victimize themselves as customers all they want, from a producer's point of view, their money can be better invested elsewhere given all those circumstances, nobody wants to invest in a niche audience when that audience repeatedly trashes you. In fact, at this point their best bet is to ignore that base entirely, ironically.

Thank you for injecting this thread with some sanity.

Hey guys, want to kill the Metroid franchise for good? Continue to sabotage any game labeled with the Metroid name. Franchises only get spinoffs when they've reached a certain level of success. That Federation Force exists at all is proof Nintendo still considers the IP healthy enough to get new games. That's likely going to end after this game thanks to the mass whining, though.
 

gafneo

Banned
Jun 2, 2013
3,998
1
0
Thank you for injecting this thread with some sanity.

Hey guys, want to kill the Metroid franchise for good? Continue to sabotage any game labeled with the Metroid name. Franchises only get spinoffs when they've reached a certain level of success. That Federation Force exists at all is proof Nintendo still considers the IP healthy enough to get new games. That's likely going to end after this game thanks to the mass whining, though.

I know, Nintendo even called fans insatiable because there is no pleasing them. Nintendo should just give up. Metroid 6 and Prime 4 will just cause too much rage. Fans will not know how to behave if they put it out.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
Nintendo fans thinking the future of a series depends more on hurt feelings than sales is hilarious.

We're not getting another Metroid game because Other M was a bomb and Federation Force will be a bomb, and you don't make games with an IP when they keep bombing, regardless of why they bombed. Not because a multi-billion dollar corporation based in Japan gives a shit about the "toxic" Metroid fanbase on NeoGAF. Get some fucking perspective.
 
Jan 18, 2013
10,402
4
0
Thank you for injecting this thread with some sanity.

Hey guys, want to kill the Metroid franchise for good? Continue to sabotage any game labeled with the Metroid name. Franchises only get spinoffs when they've reached a certain level of success. That Federation Force exists at all is proof Nintendo still considers the IP healthy enough to get new games. That's likely going to end after this game thanks to the mass whining, though.

That's some incredible spin. We're the real bad guys because we didn't keep buying games where there has been an obvious and massive drop off in quality that anyone could see, and that came with utterly unsurprising backlash.

Are you by any chance a politician?

Keep in mind that right now (at least for the UK eshop) Metroid Prime Trilogy is number 8 in the all time best sellers chart in the Wii U store. I suspect it probably has similar positioning in the other stores. People will buy good metroid games if Nintendo makes them.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
Frankly, as someone who is playing and enjoying Federation Force, I am appalled at the behavior of some of the game's defenders. I've seen people complaining about the game called retarded and mentally deficient in threads here. Apparently, having respect for a video game is more important to some folks than having respect for your fellow posters.

You like Federation Force? Then buy it and enjoy it. Support the people who made it. Vouch for the game's quality online. But stop shitting on other people, because it's not going to make them like Federation Force or Nintendo. If anything, it will do the opposite.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
Feb 6, 2016
5,324
0
280
Hey guys, want to kill the Metroid franchise for good? Continue to sabotage any game labeled with the Metroid name. Franchises only get spinoffs when they've reached a certain level of success. That Federation Force exists at all is proof Nintendo still considers the IP healthy enough to get new games. That's likely going to end after this game thanks to the mass whining, though.

Who's sabotaged what? People aren't sabotaging this game and haven't done so with any Metroid game. Fans believed in Other M and were disappointed by it, which killed sales due to word of mouth (I may hate the game myself but I was excited enough for it to get an early copy lol), and people aren't buying FF because it doesn't appeal to them and they don't owe Nintendo money. Sabotaging it would be boycotting the game because of a single detail despite still wanting to play it, which is clearly not the case here.

Jesus, just admit Nintendo has mismanaged this series, you won't hurt any of their executives' feelings.

And anyway I'm out. Truly sorry for derailing this much. It just gets really irritating to see this bizarre fan blaming in every Metroid thread, just like I'm sure it gets annoying for people who are excited for FF to see people hating on it in every related thread.
 

gafneo

Banned
Jun 2, 2013
3,998
1
0
That's some incredible spin. We're the real bad guys because we didn't keep buying games where there has been an obvious and massive drop off in quality that anyone could see, and that came with utterly unsurprising backlash.

Are you by any chance a politician?

Keep in mind that right now (at least for the UK eshop) Metroid Prime Trilogy is number 8 in the all time best sellers chart in the Wii U store. I suspect it probably has similar positioning in the other stores. People will buy good metroid games if Nintendo makes them.

Prime broke over a million back in the day. If a polished one was released today with modern gameplay and streamlined mechanics, it would sell Cod numbers. Depends on how Nintendo plays their cards. It's just a matter of Nintendo willing to put up with the crowds of perfectionists telling them how to make games after they have been doing it for over 30 years.
 

gafneo

Banned
Jun 2, 2013
3,998
1
0
Who's sabotaged what? People aren't sabotaging this game and haven't done so with any Metroid game. Fans believed in Other M and were disappointed by it, which killed sales due to word of mouth (I may hate the game myself but I was excited enough for it to get an early copy lol), and people aren't buying FF because it doesn't appeal to them and they don't owe Nintendo money. Sabotaging it would be boycotting the game because of a single detail despite still wanting to play it, which is clearly not the case here.

Jesus, just admit Nintendo has mismanaged this series, you won't hurt any of their executives' feelings.

And anyway I'm out. Truly sorry for derailing this much. It just gets really irritating to see this bizarre fan blaming in every Metroid thread, just like I'm sure it gets annoying for people who are excited for FF to see people hating on it in ever related thread.
He was sarcastic. You can't sabatoge an IP. Friday the 13th would have been gone years ago.
 

Ivan 3414

Member
Jul 3, 2010
8,764
0
880
Prime broke over a million back in the day. If a polished one was released today with modern gameplay and streamlined mechanics, it would sell Cod numbers. Depends on how Nintendo plays their cards. It's just a matter of Nintendo willing to put up with the crowds of perfectionists telling them how to make games after they have been doing it for over 30 years.

...What is "modern gameplay and streamlined mechanics"

And I don't think any Single-player only FPS will ever sell CoD numbers
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
If Metroid fans were perfectionists, Hunters would have sold a hell of a lot less.
 
Jan 18, 2013
10,402
4
0
Prime broke over a million back in the day. If a polished one was released today with modern gameplay and streamlined mechanics, it would sell Cod numbers. Depends on how Nintendo plays their cards. It's just a matter of Nintendo willing to put up with the crowds of perfectionists telling them how to make games after they have been doing it for over 30 years.

Uh, that's definitely too far in the other direction. Prime 1 got over 2.8m sales actually, according to that gaf nintendo sales history thread, but it's not going to do CoD numbers ever.

A metroid prime 4 would certainly be a solid 1m+ seller, but I suppose that wasn't enough for Nintendo.
 

RK128

Member
Jan 6, 2014
12,576
7
460
twitter.com
I'm just going to take a break talking about Metroid on this forum, as very similar to the Sonic & Crash series, its toxic even discussing it :l.

My final thoughts on the whole matter is this though; give Federation Force a fair chance, Metroid is mismanaged by Nintendo, Other M has a horrible stories but its an okay game, & people have a right to be bitter with Nintendo's treatment of Metroid.

Have a good day and both sides made good points. Just can't take the toxicity linked to this IP on this gaming forum anymore.

It fucking sucks honestly, as talking about games is just TOXIC on here now. Whatever though :l.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
Uh, that's definitely too far in the other direction. Prime 1 got over 2.8m sales actually, according to that gaf nintendo sales history thread, but it's not going to do CoD numbers ever.

A metroid prime 4 would certainly be a solid 1m+ seller, but I suppose that wasn't enough for Nintendo.
The main issue with Metroid isn't sales (series with middling sales like Pikmin still get made), it's that there's nobody to develop it. Sakamoto is finished with Metroid, Retro is finished with Metroid. EAD has never made Metroid. Next Level Games made a spinoff.
 
Jan 18, 2013
10,402
4
0
I'm just going to take a break talking about Metroid on this forum, as very similar to the Sonic & Crash series, its toxic even discussing it :l.

My final thoughts on the whole matter is this though; give Federation Force a fair chance, Metroid is mismanaged by Nintendo, Other M has a horrible stories but its an okay game, & people have a right to be bitter with Nintendo's treatment of Metroid.

Have a good day and both sides made good points. Just can't take the toxicity linked to this IP on this gaming forum anymore.

It fucking sucks honestly, as talking about games is just TOXIC on here now. Whatever though :l.

If you want to talk about Metroid in a positive light, I suggest you give A Metroid 2 Remake a go, then post your thoughts in the OT for that game. It's a little harder to get after the initial C&Ds, but it's absolutely worth your time to do so.
 
Nov 8, 2010
10,111
1
0
Don't take what Simbabbad said there to heart too much, from what I've seen (s)he is just a really strong fan of Other M, but... is a little bitter they're quite alone on that front, I guess.

I'd say if you asked people if they liked any given game that isn't other M (or federation force), and perhaps the original 2 which aged poorly (and now have much better remakes with more positive reception), you're going to get far more "yep, liked that game!" than otherwise.

I hate Other M passionately, but I still agree with the point made by Simbabbad. Going into any Metroid discussion, one would think that the fanbase actually goes out of their way to be as obnoxiously elitist and entitled. Hell just watch one of the AGDQ streams whenever Fusion is mentioned during a Super Metroid run... absolutely trash behaviour.
(NB: I still love AGDQ Super Metroid Runs... continuosly blow my mind)

I won't go as far as to declare Metroid fans to be the worst, but ultra fandom gotten so out of hand in recent years, the online echo chambers producing a sort of entitlement that has gotten so out of hand that even without active PR involvement turns communities toxic and exclusive. Cultivating made up standards and pre-requisites that remind me an awful lot to the early days of Wii and the Casual Backlash. I guess this Boys Club Mentality was never eradicated, but just splintered and found different things to cling on to.
Pathetic.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
0
A 71 metacritic, not bad
It's pretty bad. It's in the bottom 46.3% of games scores on OpenCritic.

But I honestly like the game. I think part of the reason it's so low is that it can be a slog if you're just doing the game solo.
I hate Other M passionately, but I still agree with the point made by Simbabbad. Going into any Metroid discussion, one would think that the fanbase actually goes out of their way to be as obnoxiously elitist and entitled. Hell just watch one of the AGDQ streams whenever Fusion is mentioned during a Super Metroid run... absolutely trash behaviour.
(NB: I still love AGDQ Super Metroid Runs... continuosly blow my mind)
Stream chat being garbage? Clearly a specific problem with Metroid fans.

...Seriously, have you ever looked at Twitch chat? Stream chats are always bad.
 

Jon Carter

Member
Jul 14, 2015
2,726
0
0
I know, Nintendo even called fans insatiable because there is no pleasing them. Nintendo should just give up. Metroid 6 and Prime 4 will just cause too much rage. Fans will not know how to behave if they put it out.

Reggie said that to defend their poor decisions regarding the Wii U when there was deserved negative feedback at E3 2012. People weren't excited for the second New Super Mario Bros. game in six months and were not blown away by Pikmin 3 and he tried to make it look like the fans were the problem.
 

goldenpp72

Member
Nov 29, 2005
14,369
381
1,735
Uh, that's definitely too far in the other direction. Prime 1 got over 2.8m sales actually, according to that gaf nintendo sales history thread, but it's not going to do CoD numbers ever.

A metroid prime 4 would certainly be a solid 1m+ seller, but I suppose that wasn't enough for Nintendo.

A lot of what i'm about to say is just my opinion, but here goes.. People seem to forget a lot about this series. Metroid never sold that well, and that includes Super. Nintendo let the series lay dormant for years until they basically positioned it to be their big shooter series to be a companion to Zelda and Mario. If i recall they even marketed all 3 at once routinely, Prime was to become a new pillar series for Nintendo, it had the budget, energy and heart put into it to be the next big thing.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out. Fusion sold alright and Prime sold nearly 3 million on a userbase that was relatively small, which is impressive. Unfortunately many people (myself included, a hardcore Metroid fan) were not as thrilled with Prime as the media and some fans were. As a shooter it's a weak game (keep in mind the game was compared to Halo routinely back then, anyone around then would recall this), and people were not impressed with the game as a shooter. As a Metroid game, it was almost perfect outside of the clunky shooting/slow movement, but it had the music/tone/map design/etc down perfect making it still quite good, but not near what I had hoped for it to be (a 3D version of Super Metroid)

Fact is, you have Metroid fans who either loved it or were tepid on it, and the people who were not prior fans who tried it, not being a fan of what it is, and this seeped into the lackluster sales of Prime 2 and 3, as well as Trilogy. Other M was a love letter to the fans being made by a (at the time) amazing developer and being headed by someone who mattered, unfortunately that game basically tore the series apart by being unsold to masses and hated by the hardcore fans.

People think Prime 4 will be some kind of big seller, I disagree entirely, if they do a Prime 4 it will not sell near as well as Nintendo would like and will not be something they consider worth the budget. The only way Metroid can become important at large is to reboot the series and mostly follow the craft that the first Prime had, but become a third person game with agile/snappy combat and fun shooting (or somehow make all this work in first person), while otherwise retaining the elements that make Metroid special. A fun Multiplayer mode would help a lot as well, and yes, i'm well aware this doesn't 'fit' with Metroid, but if people wish for the series to continue they will need to accept a little mass market love. The series would also need to release on a good selling platform and have proper marketing.

Sure Nintendo needs all the market diversity they can get, but Metroid is an expensive series to make, if Nintendo can just go try to make something like Splatoon and make way more money off it while offering that diversity in IP, they will just ignore Metroid. The next Metroid game in the mainline series will be horribly important to the future of the series imo, and if they go a lazy route like a normal 2d Metroid or a first person Prime sequel, I don't think it will go far after that. Prime 1 was almost a perfect storm and still only sold pretty good by Nintendo standards, followed by disappointing sales on 2 direct sequels, I just think a clean, ambitious and well timed restart would do wonders to help position this series more like the second tier Zelda releases (SS, WW, etc) and at least give it a healthy reason to exist for Nintendo.