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Microsoft Game Stack VRS update (Series X|S) - Doom Eternal, Gears 5 and UE5 - 33% boost to Nanite Performance - cut deferred lighting time in half
- Thread starter SenjutsuSage
- Start date
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I thought maybe he could have been saying this from a platform agnostic stance and trying to emphasize the GE as the most consequential of the two for both consoles, but then he follows up saying he's restricted by NDAs. This leads me to believe that the console GEs are different in some way.
yes
ReBurn
Gold Member
Cool thanks
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Really? At least they had VRR since launch.The problem Is that Microsoft Is very slow
Fredrik
Member
Kinda pops the hype balloon though when it still struggle with the performance, don’t you think?
If anything this gen has told me that paper specs means very little. Seems like XSX always needs some advanced optimization tech to push higher framerates.
Edit: And of course I get the trusty old laugh reaction. Sigh. Edited the post a little to get people less triggered.
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StateofMajora
Banned
VRS is not a good thing… we are supposed to be getting better image quality with new generations not worse.
I hate every single technique like this that’s designed to save performance over quality like screen space effects, and damn can they die already.
Some of this is just too funny to me, we had stable reflections in mario 64 but not games from 2021 xD
How is a lower quality feature something to be bragged about?!
I hate every single technique like this that’s designed to save performance over quality like screen space effects, and damn can they die already.
Some of this is just too funny to me, we had stable reflections in mario 64 but not games from 2021 xD
How is a lower quality feature something to be bragged about?!
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Why is he comparing VRS to the geometry engine? Both consoles have a geometry engine and Xbox has a VRS support built-in as well (not sure bout ps5?).
Sony fans like to use Matt Hargatt as a realiable source when comparing xsx and PS5. The guy worked at sony for a while and he clearly has more knowledge of the PS5 hardware.
Also his statments are so broad, you cant really determine anything from them. He seems to be posing questions rather than making statements on the hardware.
Zen2 and RDNA2 are the architectures these consoles use, designed by AMD. Its not like the old days where silicone was completely customarily designed. The small tweaks and optimisations made to the xsx and PS5 are going to make very marginal differences beyond there raw performance caperbilities.
The industry is moving to a more abstract direction, where hardware specific tweaks are less important then raw compute.
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It’s the usual downplay anything positive.
Riky
$MSFT
People need to remember this is just one of a suite of features on the AMD/Microsoft statement at the RDNA2 reveal.
As for culling things earlier in the pipeline, that's what SFS and Mesh Shaders are for, so that tweet is pretty irrelevant.
Seeing all three or a combination of these features is going to be a big performance win for Xbox.
As for culling things earlier in the pipeline, that's what SFS and Mesh Shaders are for, so that tweet is pretty irrelevant.
Seeing all three or a combination of these features is going to be a big performance win for Xbox.
StateofMajora
Banned
Turning the resolution down to 720p would be an even bigger win bro.
Come on, 720p plus VRS wooooo
onesvenus
Member
No, they don't. VRS Tier 1 vs software-based VRS was always comparing how tiles were grouped. Software-bssed VRS won because you were allowed to have smaller tile sizes, something that can be done with VRS Tier 2.
reinhardluma2x is referring to what they are doing in the pixel shader for those grouped pixels
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I must admit, it’s pretty wack how people downplay everything that could actually be good news In the future.
it’s like going back how many years to when anti aliasing or anisotropic filtering were announced and us dissing it. Or maybe a more apt example would be DLSS. Just diss it all, then it turns out to be amazing once implemented and has had time in the oven to evolve into something great.
it’s like going back how many years to when anti aliasing or anisotropic filtering were announced and us dissing it. Or maybe a more apt example would be DLSS. Just diss it all, then it turns out to be amazing once implemented and has had time in the oven to evolve into something great.
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Riky
$MSFT
If you've got no interest in actually discussing this then just leave the thread instead of your bitter trolling.
Hilarious that some fanboys think they know more than the likes of The Coalition and id software, totally deluded.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
The reason why VRS is viable is a bit of the same reason why I think extremely high nanite like geometry is a bit pointless on things like a light bulb, when playing a game its very rare players inspect light bulbs up close
Imtjnotu
Member
The foveated rendering done on the psvr2 is a form of VRS. Plain and simple.
onesvenus
Member
Would you say that something that reduces effective resolution in some non-needed places AND also allows you to have a much higher resolution overall is bad?
Gears 5 was allowed to get 92% of 4K instead of 83% when using VRS.
It's not as clear as you claim to be.
Do you have specifics on how it's done? I wouldn't call rendering the non-focused areas with lower resolution a form of VRS. What's specific of VRS is being able to choose per draw call/pixel which shading to apply.
That isn't necessarily what PSVR is doing. In fact it wouldn't make sense to do that, it would be better a fixed shading rate depending on the distance from the eye focus
StateofMajora
Banned
You do realize it’s starting to appear on playstation games via software… and I hate it there too dude.
This isn’t a ps vs. xbox thing this is an vrs is a bad thing.
Yes. “Not needed” Well sure in the way that higher res textures are not “needed”.
The less banding/noise in my games the better, I can’t stand it. It’s why I like Sony tvs with their smooth gradation features more than other brands.
Riky
$MSFT
If you actually watch the presentation they explain how it improves image quality by allowing increased resolution and less use of DRS, they mention this several times.
You don't know more than these developers.
StateofMajora
Banned
It’s their choice, but it doesn’t mean it’s the best choice and other developers will prioritize different things. They’re banking on people noticing the resolution more than the in surface noise.
Noisier detail vs lower res… yeah I want image stability and consistency.
Same reason i’d rather see lower detail with good reflections than higher modeling with warped unstable disappearing screen space reflections.
Luckily on PC I can turn it off for MS brand games.
Riky
$MSFT
During a run of gameplay on both Gears 5 and Doom Eternal I never noticed it once in hours and hours of play, they actually show an example where they did in Doom Eternal and how they corrected it with Tier 1.
So for resolution increase and framerate improvements for something not noticeable in gameplay I'll take that extra performance.
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StateofMajora
Banned
Riky
Since you are an xbox guy, play a game like crackdown and you’ll see what I mean, look at explosions.Crackdown has a resolution of 720p (or 4k on x1x) but the particles resolution is much lower, so it clashes and looks jaggier than the geometry.
This is the same thing in principle, just applied in a more robust way. It’s not unnoticeable, they just are prioritizing the resolution for geometry over surface resolution.
If you don’t notice it then they succeeded in their priorities for you but the reduced surface resolution is there.
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Riky
$MSFT
Crackdown has a resolution of 720p (or 4k on x1x) but the particles resolution is much lower, so it clashes and looks jaggier than the geometry.
This is the same thing in principle, just applied in a more robust way. It’s not unnoticeable, they just are prioritizing the resolution for geometry over surface resolution.
If you don’t notice it then they succeeded in their priorities for you but the reduced surface resolution is there.
Depends on how it's used, we've just had an example with the 2077 1.5 patch where even people pixel counting a still image for resolution counts didn't see it, in that case during gameplay it will be impossible so it's good enough for me.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Which means that the shading rate changes per pixel over the image in regions. As far as I understand PS4 / PS4 Pro suppers fairly coarse grained free multi resolution render targets support where each region can have different parameters including shading rate. They were not nearly as fine grained as the regions VRS deals with, so while they could have some nice perks they are not a substitute. PSVR1 titles used this.
Now, with true foveated rendering it is possible that they are using a much more fine grained version of tech they already had or something new (also knowing that just blurring objects outside of your focus area can be a big no no for VR, it can make it difficult to react to objects/enemies and not an exact match of how human sight works, so you need something better).
MS does a great service to gamers and devs showcasing their tech and features set with public presentations like this, but the warring aspects is to think the other side does not talk because it has nothing to talk about in public and leaves people puzzled in game comparisons.
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Easy VRS Integration with Eye Tracking | NVIDIA Technical Blog
NVIDIA Variable Rate Shading (VRS) now includes VRS Helper, enabling easier integration of VRS with eye-tracking in modern HMDs.
developer.nvidia.com
onesvenus
Member
Easy VRS Integration with Eye Tracking | NVIDIA Technical Blog
NVIDIA Variable Rate Shading (VRS) now includes VRS Helper, enabling easier integration of VRS with eye-tracking in modern HMDs.
You are both right. I always thought of VRS as more fine-grained instead of what's shown on that Nvidia link.
Using coarser regions doesn't remove the fact it's doing VRS
The goal of VRS is to relieve load on the GPU. If the performance issue is something else (as Cyberpunk aims to be), I don't know what you expect it to do.
Then, Cyberpunk is supposed to be using the "quality mode" of VRS and with it the performance gain becomes less. That on PC it is used by default on compatible GPUs, means that there is a reason for it.
That said, we are not talking (at least me) about what it means to have VRS vs not having VRS thinking about what it can benefit from PS5. But if you want to take it to that side, you have cases where it has served for XSX to achieve up to 30% more resolution and we are talking about a technology that is evolving, looking for new implementations and it is clear (as seen in the video) it is a " you should use it" for developers on XSeries to gain performance.
That in the future the developers do not make the best use of VRS？That they use it more as a way to save optimization time in Xseries vs PS5? That only first party Studios make good use of the tool (in the manner of Sony being the only one making good use of CH and not always)？That remains to be seen, but the technology is there and it's not "just marketing".
I don’t think you understand how it works. You lower quality of low visibility areas and can raise quality of highly visible areas.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Just wait for 2027, that’s when this extra special sauce will really help. Don’t be triggered Ricky, we doin this togetha
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Riky
$MSFT
Nothing serious to add again,they show you the results in shipped games like Gears 5 and Doom Eternal.
They are. VRS and sparse lighting completely off. These things were not completely off on the UE5 or Alpha Point demo.
Reminds me of the times people kept talking about SFS vs PRT 300% performance gains prior to console launch.
oldergamer
Member
For the last time dude. Reading comprehension is important.
I posted that i was telling people when they were accusing vrs of degrading image quality on console (not talking pc examples) based on Dirt 5 that they were incorrect. It used tier 1 vrs clearly despite what you keep claiming. Dirt 5 team cared more about performance which is why they had a focus on 60/120 with a launch title. Tier 1 bought a larger savings on performance.
It wasn't until examples were given using vrs tier 2 with gears tactics that fanboys could see it had benefits. Despite that they kept trolling and claiming it degraded image quality. What doom is using is only relevant to the point i was making, that vrs doesn't have to degrade visual quality when in use.
If you think dirt 5 was using tier 2 on console (not pc) show me what leads you to believe it. The rest of what you have stated is clearly trying to argue things im not.
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Riky
$MSFT
Yes and Control was a great proof of this, those small framerate drops if you go back to that thread gave certain posters an excuse that it was all down to the Shader Array setup or the different Vram speeds with all sorts of stupid theories.
Then we find out a firmware update to the shell fixed it, we also don't know what affect that had on other games but I doubt it impacted just Control.
Thirty7ven
Banned
There's not much to add, it's cool tech and devs are using it. In some cases it's absolutely fundamental, like when devs are making VR games with foveated rendering.
silent head
Member
Riky
$MSFT
Very interesting part in the second video about Gears 5, they had additional optimisations that they didn't include in the Series console versions as they had already hit the performance target of 120fps, but they used them on PC to go further.
So in theory the Series console versions could have gone beyond 120fps.
So in theory the Series console versions could have gone beyond 120fps.
Thirty7ven
Banned
The problem is that you are straight up posting drivel, with no basis whatsoever to make distinctions between the hardware. The only thing happening here is a MS dev sharing what they are doing and that being spun into console wars.
It's the same cycle over and over and over around here. And at the end of the cycle it's always the same result. PS5 didn't have RT, then it didn't have INT8, then it didn't have VRS, then it didn't have Mesh Shaders.
Time goes by and what's happening in the real world? It's 2022 baby, these consoles came out in 2020 and people still holding to secret sauces.
digoutyoursoul
Member
I was excited to hear that The Coalition are working on multiple projects. From a selfish point of view I’d like them to make something other than Gears, a RPG in particular.
That Xseriers has VRS by hardware and not so PS5 is one of the things that are clearest at this point. I do not know what tells you that there are already almost a dozen games using VRS on XSX while not on PS5. Then, pretending to believe that a presentation of this type by the Xbox developers has no means anything and that it is only for fans to use it to encourage the console war is, sorry, a bad joke.
Finally, I find it funny when people like you censor and criticize that there are people accept the idea that in XSX there is unics technologies or that it is not present in PS5 while you see correct to affirm that it is a lie based only on the "we do not know if it also exists on PS5 because Sony has not mentioned anything"·.. Beyond the speculation of some fanboy pre-presentation of both consoles denying that PS5 could have RT, on the rest we only have the information of SONY and MS. While MS has put a lot of emphasis on highlighting those capabilities and highlighting them as typical of Xseries consoles, SONY has not made any statements. As a rule, when someone puts a lot of effort into highlighting something of themselves, it is usually because they know well that they stand out from the other person in that aspect. And believe me, it would be irrational to think that MS doesn't know PS5 technology perfectly at this point. That later in practice they end up being little used or "useless" is another issue.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
As how it compares to other hardware. What you’re seeing here is optimization being done by MS developers. Optimization will be happening across the industry.
The implication that this is something that only Xbox series can do, when even different architectures *nvidia cough* can do it is what’s funny about this whole thing.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Which games have VRS only on Series hardware and not on PS5/Nvidia hardware?
And why does Nvidia focus on VRS for eye tracking foveated rendering, and PSVR2 will use eye tracking foveated rendering, but somehow only Series has hardware support for VRS?
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
With Mario avatar, this is pretty brave
assurdum
Banned
Discuss about what? You can bet your balls such milliseconds are saved in other ways by developers with other tech in their engine. Why every time Xbox fans find phenomenal such optimizations? Because they are specifically for the VRS hardware? There are even software implementation which can give similar benefits. Lol. Why you fallen always in the MS PR trap.
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Riky
$MSFT
How does that make it "secret sauce" that we will see in 2027?
It's nothing to do with other optimisations that other developers are doing.
We can read the joint statement from AMD and Xbox, we can see what DF say about Tier 2 hardware support in consoles, we can see what id say about it in relation to how they inserted into Doom Eternal. It's all very clear what is being said.
Architecture has little or nothing to do with it. Nvidia's GPus were the first to include VRS-compatible hardware. That it is present in XS and AMD RDNA 2 GPus has a lot to do with the coincidence in the process of development and cooperation between both companies.
The fact is that there are already quite a few games on the street using VRS on XS consoles and PC (Nvidia / AMD) but not so in the PS5 version. And no, Nvidia's focus with VRS is not eye tracking, that's just one of its utilities. Nvidia's purpose is to include in its GPUs all the possible technology and the necessary hardware to solve it with the lowest possible cost.
Finally, You are right, it is clear that the process of optimization and better use of a hardware is applicable to any platform. Here however we talk about the improvement in optimization and use of a technology that seems to be unique in Xbox consoles. That as I said may end up being little used or useless in the future, but it is there and, at least the Xbox Studios first party (which are many and using very different engines) are putting emphasis on developing and using this technology in their games on XS consoles for gain better performance.
Loxus
Member
I know right.
Only Microsoft API matters for some reason.