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MiSTer FPGA; one year of ownership...damn it everyone should just buy one!

Grechy34

Member
For the majority of the cores yes. The only reason I can tell what’s my MiSTer and what’s my Neo Geo AES is that the MiSTer RGB analog out is better.

And that’s coming from someone with shelves of Neo Geo games that I’ve been collection for 15 years.

Now something like Sharp X68000…it’s my fav core…but it has some bugs still. You can tell that’s not OG hardware

The X68000 is getting better but I believe it's still a WIP. Haven't tried it myself but have heard that's it's very playable now. If the Saturn reaches what the PSX has, the Mister value is going to skyrocket even further.
 
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VGEsoterica

Member
The X68000 is getting better but I believe it's still a WIP. Haven't tried it myself but have heard that's it's very playable now. If the Saturn reaches what the PSX has, the Mister value is going to skyrocket even further.
Yes it’s just not finished
 

TheGecko

Banned
You wouldn't ever tell the difference between real hardware and Mister. Sorry mate, just no. I'd go as far to say it's hard to tell with emulation unless you can feel the input lag which on a lot of the mini consoles now is incredibly negligible.

You sound like one of those retro gatekeepers on Youtube 10 years ago who used to make it a point about how real hardware is so much better then emulation and ensure all their hardware maintained value by spouting bullshit. I have all retro hardware and a Mister and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but the Mister is absolutely 1/1.
Keep fooling yourself bro!
 
It's a sweet device and in terms of accuracy, it's so close. I honestly can't be arsed with original hardware anymore. It's tiring to maintain the old shit and in my eyes, just not worth it anymore.
 
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oldergamer

Member
Mister is pretty cool, but the fact it can't reach some of the consoles from 5th or 6th gen, is leading me to just go with regular emulation and purchase the fastest ARM single board on the market. I want to emulate, switch, Wii, PS2, and gamecube games. This card can do it at super speed. Its also going to cost less then the Mister. Perhaps on the next revision of mister I will look into it again.

ROC-RK3588S-PC​

 
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BarryPinches

Neo Member
I have had my MiSTer since march 2021 and it's a great project and it's been interesting to see it mature over the past year.

Compared to the likes of Retroarch is a joy to use and impressively I'm still using my original SD card install

The script system makes it very easy to update or add new features not covered by Main

The current issue is really the availability and pricing of the DE-10 Nano, I would struggle to justify buying in at present but as a project I would still recommend it

We are reaching the limits of the DE-10 but also reaching the limits of FPGAs in retro gaming according the projects creator
 
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VGEsoterica

Member
Mister is pretty cool, but the fact it can't reach some of the consoles from 5th or 6th gen, is leading me to just go with regular emulation and purchase the fastest ARM single board on the market. I want to emulate, switch, Wii, PS2, and gamecube games. This card can do it at super speed. Its also going to cost less then the Mister. Perhaps on the next revision of mister I will look into it again.

ROC-RK3588S-PC​


and thats fair. We will need MiSTer V2 for that...a much larger FPGA chip . Well larger = more LE's. Based on silicon design lately the footprint probably wouldn't change much
 

SeraphJan

Member
This is true. As the owner of modest collections for the Saturn and the Super Famicom, the value is in the games. Consoles themselves are relatively cheap (unless you're going for a CIB or some sort of limited edition console)
Agreed console maintenance is troublesome, FPGA not only is 100% accurate, it takes less space too, literally no reason to keep the original console. In the end only the games matters
 
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Grechy34

Member
Keep fooling yourself bro!

Good one "bro"

Still haven't sent one credible link to the difference between Mister and real hardware on complete cores besides you floating around here trying to convince everyone.

You do realise now the FGC are now using Mister for competitive tournaments in place of cabinets etc. Watch the EVO streams.

Go put your clown mask back on.
 
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TheGecko

Banned
Good one "bro"

Still haven't sent one credible link to the difference between Mister and real hardware on complete cores besides you floating around here trying to convince everyone.

You do realise now the FGC are now using Mister for competitive tournaments in place of cabinets etc. Watch the EVO streams.

Go put your clown mask back on.
Listen Son, if you want to clown yourself then go ahead, I'm all for options like these but don't fool yourself. It's not the same as on original hardware, end of story.
 

TintoConCasera

I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
It's not the same as on original hardware, end of story.
14c.jpg
 

Thebonehead

Banned
Obviously I make no money off anyone buying a MiSTer...so I am no shill...but damn it everyone should seriously own one of these things if they even had a remote interest in retro gaming.

Every console basically from the 80s and 90s, multiple PC cores including Sharp X68000 (saved myself a couple grand not buying one) and a metric CRAP TON of arcade cores...its wild just how much MiSTer really does via FPGA

It's the swiss army knife of retro gaming...except less stabby (I mean if you really tried I am sure you could use it to stab...but its not a proper use case scenario at all)

What's the ownership of a MiSTer here on Gaf? Curious who has one...and what you are playing on it / what you want to see come to it? Because I am working on a "what MiSTer needs" video and having opinions that arent just my own is always fun



Well mine was due this month but........

TqDKc1J.png
 

Thebonehead

Banned
Standard issue retro gaming fighting

I have every piece of OG hardware. In some instances I have collected some of the rarest and hardest to find hardware items known to exist (including “one in the world” level shit)

I’m fine with emulation. Pi’s. People playing games on their cell phone via emulation.

That’s my mentality. Have fun! And don’t be like me 😂

Thread please - I like reading about rare, unique and interesting retro hardware.
 
Listen Son, if you want to clown yourself then go ahead, I'm all for options like these but don't fool yourself. It's not the same as on original hardware, end of story.

Original hardware:

1) will break down eventually, and

2) is more cluttery.

MiSTer can replicate many pieces of hardware at a fraction of the space.

Mister is pretty cool, but the fact it can't reach some of the consoles from 5th or 6th gen, is leading me to just go with regular emulation and purchase the fastest ARM single board on the market. I want to emulate, switch, Wii, PS2, and gamecube games. This card can do it at super speed. Its also going to cost less then the Mister. Perhaps on the next revision of mister I will look into it again.

ROC-RK3588S-PC​



If you want to go that far I totally understand!

It's for everything else that's earlier that MiSTer or a more powerful PC is superior. (Sega Saturn. 'Nuff said.)
 
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Grechy34

Member
Listen Son, if you want to clown yourself then go ahead, I'm all for options like these but don't fool yourself. It's not the same as on original hardware, end of story.

You still haven't given any evidence or back up when there's tonnes online to suggest the opposite to your viewpoint. I'm glad you love original hardware, the feel will always be better but from a 1/1 gaming perspective, you would never be able to tell a difference. In fact for that matter most wouldn't be able to tell a difference between MAME and OG hardware.
 

TheGecko

Banned
Original hardware:

1) will break down eventually, and

2) is more cluttery.

MiSTer can replicate many pieces of hardware at a fraction of the space.



If you want to go that far I totally understand!

It's for everything else that's earlier that MiSTer or a more powerful PC is superior. (Sega Saturn. 'Nuff said.)

I'm not against it, But I will step up when they say Mister and PC emulation is the same and superior to OG hardware because its not.

I'm not even against making the games look better but they don't feel the same on the controller. Go play any Mario from nes/snes time emulated then on og hardware, that's just one example.
 

TheGecko

Banned
You still haven't given any evidence or back up when there's tonnes online to suggest the opposite to your viewpoint. I'm glad you love original hardware, the feel will always be better but from a 1/1 gaming perspective, you would never be able to tell a difference. In fact for that matter most wouldn't be able to tell a difference between MAME and OG hardware.
You're exactly the type of person this is marketed to.
 
I'm not against it, But I will step up when they say Mister and PC emulation is the same and superior to OG hardware because its not.

I'm not even against making the games look better but they don't feel the same on the controller. Go play any Mario from nes/snes time emulated then on og hardware, that's just one example.

Emulators, unless you're running an incredibly fast computer, introduce lag. FPGA solutions do not.
 

Grechy34

Member
You're exactly the type of person this is marketed to.

I have original hardware modded with Everdrive's and ODE's. I have an Astro City cabinet at home also with PCB's. I will concede input lag on emulation is noticeable but negligible to most. On the Mister though, I can't tell the difference. There's evidence online to back up this up.
 
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Haggard

Banned
I'm not against it, But I will step up when they say Mister and PC emulation is the same and superior to OG hardware because its not.
No one says this because
1. PC emulation is often noticeably worse and
2. Most people who buy stuff like the mister probably have enough education to know what an FPGA is and are well aware that it can be and in many cases actually is superior to age old OG hardware.....
All you show with your bickering is that you don't understand the difference between software and hardware emulation......
 
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Grechy34

Member
No one says this because
1. PC emulation is often noticeably worse and
2. Most people who buy stuff like the mister probably have enough education to know what an FPGA is and are well aware that it can be and in many cases actually is superior to age old OG hardware.....
All you show with your bickering is that you don't even understand the difference between software and hardware emulation......

Just give up with this guy. He's in denial at this point. I've come to the realization that the snobbery amongst retro enthusiasts to modern hardware they perceive as a threat is almost toxic at this point.
 

TheGecko

Banned
Just give up with this guy. He's in denial at this point. I've come to the realization that the snobbery amongst retro enthusiasts to modern hardware they perceive as a threat is almost toxic at this point.

I have original hardware modded with Everdrive's and ODE's. I have an Astro City cabinet at home also with PCB's. I will concede input lag on emulation is noticeable but negligible to most. On the Mister though, I can't tell the difference. There's evidence online to back up this up.

Thing is I can feel a difference. Its as noticeable to me as emulation.

An easy one is say rollcage stage 2 or gran turismo. The input on the steering isn't correct. Its fast but not correct.

On real hardware the steering is gradual, fast again but gradual on emu and the Mister Its instant left or right, that's not how it behaves on real hardware and it makes these 2 as an example unplayable.
 

nkarafo

Member
On real hardware the steering is gradual, fast again but gradual on emu and the Mister Its instant left or right, that's not how it behaves on real hardware and it makes these 2 as an example unplayable.
That sounds more like an input config issue and not something about emulation accuracy.
 

TheGecko

Banned
That sounds more like an input config issue and not something about emulation accuracy.
That's what I thought but when I tested it on many controllers and systems it's the same across the field. I've even had other people test it.
 

Dr.D00p

Gold Member
Why?

I'm willing to bet that in a 'blind taste' test, no one would be able tell the difference between a game running on a MiSTer & a (correctly) configured PC Emulator...Got more important things to waste my money on, TBH.
 

TheGecko

Banned
I'd be happy to give it a test and see.
OK try rollcage stage ii. When turning you get constant like skid smoke because the turn axis is hitting 100% you'll need to compare it to real ps1.

Also gran turismo 1, same effect when turning, example will be going down a straight you have to constantly tap left or right because it's turn axis is 100% on or off. Its hard to explain but I've had a few people on reddit notice it.

Checked with all retro arch cores, stand alone emulators pc, mac, android, pi with a multitude of controllers.

This was the main reason 3 years ago I got all my og hardware back and gave them the ode treatment.

Sorry for being so harsh, I just feel strong about this.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
What this over just using a raspberry pi or one of the other mini boards?
It's FPGA based. FPGA is able to simulate retro systems in hardware so it can do it without latency and with generally higher accuracy and compantibility than what is possible with software emulation (especially on low end hardware like Pi).

That said, software emulation still has a lot of advantages too, namely that it supports a lot more systems, has way better options for curation and browsing, it's cheaper, and it supports a lot of quality of life features and enhancements that FPGA cores don't.

In its current state, MiSTER isn't really a substitute for a good emulation set up but the things it does well, it does very well, to the extent that it can be a viable stand in for real hardware.
 

Grechy34

Member
OK try rollcage stage ii. When turning you get constant like skid smoke because the turn axis is hitting 100% you'll need to compare it to real ps1.

Also gran turismo 1, same effect when turning, example will be going down a straight you have to constantly tap left or right because it's turn axis is 100% on or off. Its hard to explain but I've had a few people on reddit notice it.

Checked with all retro arch cores, stand alone emulators pc, mac, android, pi with a multitude of controllers.

This was the main reason 3 years ago I got all my og hardware back and gave them the ode treatment.

Sorry for being so harsh, I just feel strong about this.

I did play on both. It would need someone with more expertise then myself to be honest. I was struggling to see a real profound difference. I can't discount what you are saying though as you clearly have played these games far more then myself.
 

nkarafo

Member
It's FPGA based. FPGA is able to simulate retro systems in hardware so it can do it without latency and with generally higher accuracy and compantibility than what is possible with software emulation
Kinda tired of this myth being repeated over and over.

There is no inherent higher accuracy with FPGAs VS software. That's just marketing talk by FPGA developers who like to compare their products to the worst emulators and crap like the Pi.

In reality, it all depends on the developer skill/knowledge. Simple as that.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can hear it from a legendary developer himself: https://archive.ph/fWosI
 
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Why?

I'm willing to bet that in a 'blind taste' test, no one would be able tell the difference between a game running on a MiSTer & a (correctly) configured PC Emulator...Got more important things to waste my money on, TBH.

Nah, I'll keep playing retro games up to the Wii on my Xbox series X, thanks anyway.

Nice driveby posts.

Kinda tired of this myth being repeated over and over.

There is no inherent higher accuracy with FPGAs VS software. That's just marketing talk by FPGA developers who like to compare their products to the worst emulators and crap like the Pi.

In reality, it all depends on the developer skill/knowledge. Simple as that.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can hear it from a legendary developer himself: https://archive.ph/fWosI

I have a lot of respect for byuu (RIP), but for cycle accurate emulation of the same hardware covered by MiSTer, you need to spend a lot more. Granted, you get to go beyond the 32/64 bit hardware gens, so if that's on your list, that's great!
 
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SScorpio

Member
Kinda tired of this myth being repeated over and over.

There is no inherent higher accuracy with FPGAs VS software. That's just marketing talk by FPGA developers who like to compare their products to the worst emulators and crap like the Pi.

In reality, it all depends on the developer skill/knowledge. Simple as that.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can hear it from a legendary developer himself: https://archive.ph/fWosI
One thing you aren't taking into account is OS overhead and process switching. With an FPGA that isn't a thing.

With modern Windows you have a bunch of things running in the background that can and do affect the performance of emulators. Along with generally higher input latency.

Yes you could cold to the metal, or have a stripped down Linux install. But very few people do that.

With MiSTer doing analog out and SNAC for controls you stay completely on the FPGA and things are all firing at the same correct time.
 

nkarafo

Member
I have a lot of respect for byuu (RIP), but for cycle accurate emulation of the same hardware covered by MiSTer, you need to spend a lot more. Granted, you get to go beyond the 32/64 bit hardware gens, so if that's on your list, that's great!

Yes, a mid-range PC that can run every accurate emulator at full speed will cost more. But a single PC will also emulate every console/arcade/home computer. You don't need multiple PCs to emulate multiple systems. You also don't need an expensive PC to emulate all the systems currently covered by FPGAs (Saturn being the most advanced). A 10 year old, mid-range PC can cover all the systems easily. On the other hand you need multiple FPGAs/modules to emulate around the same amount of different systems or arcade drivers. This will be much more expensive in the end and much less convenient.

My current emulation setup covers more than 50 home systems/consoles and literally hundreds of different arcade hardware/drivers. All in a single PC tower. Good luck setting up all those FPGAs in a single game room, assuming you are rich enough to even attempt it.

One thing you aren't taking into account is OS overhead and process switching. With an FPGA that isn't a thing.

With modern Windows you have a bunch of things running in the background that can and do affect the performance of emulators. Along with generally higher input latency.

Yes you could cold to the metal, or have a stripped down Linux install. But very few people do that.

With MiSTer doing analog out and SNAC for controls you stay completely on the FPGA and things are all firing at the same correct time.

I do take that into account and the author of the article does too.

Yes, you do need more power and a more capable CPU to emulate a system at the same accuracy level as a FPGA. I didn't doubt FPGAs are more power efficient. But a 10 year old/mid range PC CPU should be able to handle every system the FPGA industry supports atm, full speed. You don't need the most power-hungry CPU in the market and you certainly don't need a powerful GPU (or a GPU at all).

The only thing that's left is latency and with a PC you generally have more, since the OS will always get in the way. But this has nothing to do with the accuracy of the emulation (which is what i'm discussing) and as the article suggests, it's possible to "code to the metal" if a developer goes for it. Meaning, it's more about demand and not about some kind of inherent limit.

So again, there's nothing about FPGAs that makes then inherently more accurate than software emulation, and obviously we don't mean anything running on a crappy Pi device or phone. This myth was started by the Analogue developers IIRC and it's just marketing talk. Very good marketing talk i might add since they even convinced gamers on this very niche forum that it's true, let alone the mainstream retro gamers and youtubers who are never well informed about emulation in the first place. If a FPGA manages to be more accurate than the best software emulator right now, it's because of the developer himself, not the nature of FPGAs. Though i'm not sure if any of the FPGA systems right now are more accurate than the best emulators available.
 
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kurisu_1974

is on perm warning for being a low level troll
Does the MiSTer FPGA support PC-FX or FM Towns? Those two are all I care about really

I have both these systems running on my Pi4. PC-FX runs very good, FM Towns wasn't great at first but I think there's been some updates because last time I tried it it seemed much better.
 

kurisu_1974

is on perm warning for being a low level troll
the desktop is still running in the background and you can easily quit retropie and use the Pi as a regular computer).

While you can do that, most people run EmulationStation from command line, there's no desktop running on most RetroPi builts.
 
Yes, a mid-range PC that can run every accurate emulator at full speed will cost more. But a single PC will also emulate every console/arcade/home computer. You don't need multiple PCs to emulate multiple systems. You also don't need an expensive PC to emulate all the systems currently covered by FPGAs (Saturn being the most advanced). A 10 year old, mid-range PC can cover all the systems easily. On the other hand you need multiple FPGAs/modules to emulate around the same amount of different systems or arcade drivers. This will be much more expensive in the end and much less convenient.

My current emulation setup covers more than 50 home systems/consoles and literally hundreds of different arcade hardware/drivers. All in a single PC tower. Good luck setting up all those FPGAs in a single game room, assuming you are rich enough to even attempt it.

Wait wait wait, what's this about needing several separate FPGAs for multiple consoles/computers? Either you're moving goalposts, or you're missing the Programmable in FPGAs.
 

SScorpio

Member
Yes, a mid-range PC that can run every accurate emulator at full speed will cost more. But a single PC will also emulate every console/arcade/home computer. You don't need multiple PCs to emulate multiple systems. You also don't need an expensive PC to emulate all the systems currently covered by FPGAs (Saturn being the most advanced). A 10 year old, mid-range PC can cover all the systems easily. On the other hand you need multiple FPGAs/modules to emulate around the same amount of different systems or arcade drivers. This will be much more expensive in the end and much less convenient.

My current emulation setup covers more than 50 home systems/consoles and literally hundreds of different arcade hardware/drivers. All in a single PC tower. Good luck setting up all those FPGAs in a single game room, assuming you are rich enough to even attempt it.
You do realize that MiSTer works just like a RaspPi in that you have multiple cores you switch to at the press of a button, which gives you over 30 different consoles, over 50 different computers, and 100s of Arcade games. You can go with a bare board, small case, larger-looking console case, etc.

A PC can do more advanced systems, but the thing stopping an FPGA from doing them is just the cost, along with the development time. The DE10-Nano board is subsidized by Intel and less for less than its sum of parts. The next step up gets to over $1,000 though there are some promising developments from other FGPA makers that could have potential. But so far the boards all have compromises in I/O that make them unsuitable even if the FGPA has more logic units.

But if a PC works great for you sweet. I have MiSTers in my office and in my main entertainment cabinet, along with gaming PCs in both locations. I've played around with emulation since MAME was first released in '97. But it still kept playing around on original hardware until the MiSTer came out and just felt right even after trying out all the "accurate" emulators.

Use whatever is best for you, but why do you keep putting the MiSTer down when according to your posts you don't have one and it doesn't read as you've ever experienced it? When competitive people in the fighting game and shump communities are using the MiSTer rather than original arcade boards, you know something is up. MAME, FBA, etc has been around for over two decades, and while they are great. It wasn't perfect, yes a software emulator can be coded to be 100% accurate. But without full control over the machine (ie OS scheduling), you can't control latency as you said, and that keeps competitive people away.

Another great thing with the FPGA cores being open source is that they are software-defined hardware. Meaning, that we have the full necessary hardware specs to recreate these classic consoles and arcade boards from scratch. The NeoGeo core was originally started because the developer wanted to be able to make new versions of custom chips that were no longer available outside of removing them from other machines. In the future we may have a better way to create custom chips, and well we could easily create new consoles because we have all the hardware laid out for us.
 

nkarafo

Member
I don't "fight" FPGAs, i fight the misinformation around them. All my posts so far are reaction posts. Most claim they are inherently more accurate, which is false. Latency, sure, but latency and accuracy are two separate things.

You do realize that MiSTer works just like a RaspPi in that you have multiple cores you switch to at the press of a button, which gives you over 30 different consoles, over 50 different computers, and 100s of Arcade games. You can go with a bare board, small case, larger-looking console case, etc.

Ok but aren't these cores separate purchases? How much does each one cost? I'm replying to the posts that claim a PC is a more expensive solution, which is true but is that still the case if you want a lot of systems?
 
Ok but aren't these cores separate purchases? How much does each one cost? I'm replying to the posts that claim a PC is a more expensive solution, which is true but is that still the case if you want a lot of systems?

The cores are free. They show up automatically when you run the update script.
 
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