-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Modern Vintage Gamer: Why the limitations of the N64 and PS1 mattered
- Thread starter IbizaPocholo
- Start date
- Retro Trailer Hardware
Portugeezer
Member
Super Metroid, the GOAT, was also molded by hardware limitations of the SNES.
Drell
Member
Well Super Metroid devs had access to a 4 MB cartridge and fastrom chip meaning they got the largest ROM size at the time (only Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean did get 6 MB later) and the full power of the SNES CPU.
Super Metroid may be kind of limited in the grand scheme of video games but not really in its own console library.
nkarafo
Member
Super Metroid used a 3MB cart.
I do agree that the fast ROM access helped with it's non-linear design though. This game would be impossible on the Amiga (imagine juggling 4 disks while you explore random areas) unless they used a hard disk or cut the game down to fit in a single 800K floppy disk, which would make it look and sound far worse.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Pre-rendered backgrounds sure seem like a lost form of art.
nkarafo
Member
Fog was a very common way to mask pop-up (Disruptor on PS1 is an earlier FPS game that also uses the same amount of fog). Turok needed it more than most because of it's huge outdoor areas and full 3D graphics for all enemies and objects. It wasn't the first or last game that used this but it was the most popular, that's why everyone associates it with this game.
nkarafo
Member
Check out this channel, it reveals how many effects were made in some of the best looking Genesis games made by a Traveler's Tales dev, among some others this particular person worked on.
And some of my favorite videos of his
And some of my favorite videos of his
Last edited:
Portugeezer
Member
I remember reading how the developers had to work around some limitations when it came to the level design, but I can't find anything online.
Last edited:
squarealex
Member
This
Drell
Member
https://raregame.ru/file/50/SNES_Carts_List.txt that's where I got my information. Not telling you're wrong but I always read it was 32 Mb.
Yeah it would definitly be possible with multiple floppies. Then I wasn't there during the years of the amiga so I don't really know if users where okay with games where you had to switch floppies regularly and then you also have to take into account that multi-disk/multi-floppy games have to duplicate some data always needed for gameplay. Rom cartridges definitly have some advantage sometimes even if memory was exepensive back then.
Drell
Member
I believe you and have no doubt about it but what I'm telling is that compared to some older and/or others games with less developments budget on SNES, I don't think devs where as much limited with how far they could push this console's hardware.
I would argue coders back then were better for it, they overcame challenges and limitations to really push unique systems. These days it feels almost lazy with PC architecture and lazy coding with so much power available. I also think real hardware limits keep games on track and in scope, too many time do games go off the rails. I admire a system like the Neo Geo and how far they pushed it, from Fatal Fury all the way to Garou Mark of the wolves, something to be said about cartridges and instance access, and of course 68000.
Last edited:
calistan
Member
I had Dragon's Lair for the Amiga. It came on about six discs, with two brief scenes on each disc. You'd wait a while for a scene to load, spend a much shorter time actually playing the scene, wait for the next one to load, then swap discs and repeat.
It's was diabolical. The best thing about it was that there was a cheat so you could just watch the scenes complete themselves (you only had to get up to swap discs). But it was still better than loading Spectrum games from tape, especially games that used multi-load...
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Then: Developers came up with creative workarounds to push the hardware.
Now: Developers can’t even make full use of the hardware that’s readily available to them.
Now: Developers can’t even make full use of the hardware that’s readily available to them.
Kiya's Guard
Member
I agree, but the thing about "old games better vs new games no innovation" is not a case of limitations, but about cost and investment.
Everyone including the devs would have loved a n64 with the capacity of discs and speed of the cartridge, and sony with the 64bit chip, geometry correction and speed of the cartridge too.
Of course limits spark creativity, but the more roadblocks the harder to make the product, and more limited the end game is.
Everyone including the devs would have loved a n64 with the capacity of discs and speed of the cartridge, and sony with the 64bit chip, geometry correction and speed of the cartridge too.
Of course limits spark creativity, but the more roadblocks the harder to make the product, and more limited the end game is.
nkarafo
Member
Dunno why it's listed as a 4MB cart in your link, the uncompressed, perfect No-Intro roms of Super Metroid, from all regions, are 3MB. Maybe they used a 4MB rom and 1/4 of it was empty? I'm pretty sure perfect, uncompressed roms also take this into account so even in that case Super Metroid should still be a 4MB rom, which is not.
Super Metroid, in particular, would be very bad with multi floppies because of it's non-linear and explorative nature. Imagine each disc having certain areas of the map so when you go from a random area to another you would constantly have to swap. Even if it was just 2 disks, you would have to swap them dozens of times before you finish the game, even if you knew where to go.
It wouldn't be so bad in games with linear/serial progression (stage 1, stage 2, etc) because you would only have to swap each disc once every playthrough as the beaten stages are not need to be reloaded anymore. So even if the game was huge and had more disks, you would end up swapping fewer times before you finish it.
Last edited:
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Agreed. Turok made it work.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
The limits of the hardware forces the developer to decide what they need to cut out.
This means whatever is not need is not present. Every part of the game earned their place in the code.
I mentioned this before, but I feel modern AAA gaming is like trying to paint on a canvas the size of a billboard; sure that you have plenty of room, but do you really need THAT much space?
This means whatever is not need is not present. Every part of the game earned their place in the code.
I mentioned this before, but I feel modern AAA gaming is like trying to paint on a canvas the size of a billboard; sure that you have plenty of room, but do you really need THAT much space?
Del_X
Member
Easier to run into limitations back then as you didn't need a lot of creative vision to find issues with the hardware. Right now it's a lack of creative vision. I don't see many games really getting creative with fluid dynamics, physics, destructible environments, etc. Dragon's Dogma 2 and DS2 kinda seem to be trying. Squadron 42 might do some stuff.
We had more ambition in the mid-00s.
We had more ambition in the mid-00s.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
“24 megs of action in the largest Super NES game ever!” is even written on the back of the game’s box, and I remember reviews at the time mentioning this ROM size.
32Mb was the reign of DKC, Chrono Trigger, and a few others.
A good thing in the limitations of that era was that you couldn’t just cram every single idea in your game. This helped trim the fat and reduce the padding. Devs were so used to working with and around limitations, that when most started developing CD- based games they had no flippin’ idea what to do with that amount of available data. That’s why we got tons of FMV and CG videos, which then became a standard because people got used to them in the early 32-bit days. And those games could still last you an ungodly amount of hours.
Unfortunately, now there’s few tech limitations and virtually zero space limitations, so we get too many unoptimized games that could lose a good chunk of their content without suffering from it.
Similar threads
- Poll