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Most impressive 3D-Games for the Sega Saturn

Alexios

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Kind of curious what emulator does everyone prefer? Trying to get VF Remix up and running in MedGUi and it doesn’t seem to recognize my HRAP Pro for Xbox One
Beetle core in RetroArch, that's Mednafen too but with the nice (after you get used to it, since it's the same for all emulator cores and you don't need to relearn their quirks) RetroArch interface/input mapping etc. Other than that, SSF stand alone is probably the most accurate and also lets you deinterlace games like Virtua Fighter 2 (making them full res, it's not some wobble filter) and to replace mesh transparencies with real transparencies (but it doesn't do high res like Kronos or anything like that). Though some SNK 2D fighting games have issues on that, everything else is spot on.

RA can seem tricky to use different devices as p1 and p2 for different cores/games but once it clicks it's easy to get it right for all of them, I use my DS4 as primary for emulating PlayStation or Dreamcast, my Fighting Commander for the Saturn and Final Burn Neo arcade games, but then also set certain Saturn games that play best with analog like racing games or on FBN Space Harrier, Outrun and other such stuff to use the DS4 as well, set it up to act like a Twin Stick for Virtual On games, set the Commander for Dreamcast 6 button fighting games, etc., learning RetroArch is worth it.

Edit: Ugh, new page... FML... Some highlights from previous pages to kick it off...

 
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SEGA beat Nintendo in Europe before Tom ever joined SEGA America with the Master System.
Not relevant to the Genesis discussion, you're moving goal posts, we are dealing with a Genesis that sold maybe at best 3 or some million worldwide, to selling gangbusters because of Tom actions in NA, which ultimately led to how Sonic was bundled. This isn't hard.

SEGA didn't have EA, EA had SEGA. SEGA didn't make a penny off EA titles after Madden, thanks to Trip out thinking SEGA.
Isn't relevant, those games moved Sega Genesis hardware and were major parts of the library.

It was a worry to see the former owner of EA bring out a console with heavy backing from EA
No it wasn't, because that's not how it happened, 3Do did not launch with a bunch of EA support. You're whole argument revolves around ignorance and revisionist history. The first EA game didn't even release until 1994, Super Wing Commander. Otherwise they were just publishing random games, including publishing some NA games in Japan, and helped 3DO publish a couple of their own games.

it wasn't until the M2 that SEGA began talks with 3DO
In correct, 3DO approached Sega earlier to make a 3DO 1 machine, stop it.

and its laughable to say that come mid 1994 everyone didn't know the 3DO was dead on its feet,

You don't even know the accurate sales numbers you're just making shit up, the 3DO cut the price, the hardware started selling more by 3x the amount, the software support also rose by nearly 4x the amount, you literally have no idea what you're talking about. The 3DO would continue accelerating in sales until the end of 1995 after the holiday season where the PS1's rapidly started to pick up, and the Saturns prospects crashed. 1995 was 3DO's best year, and magazines were looking at the launch months of Saturn and PSX thinking the 3D consoles would take a bit to sell because the 16-bits were still "kings of the market". Too bad that momentum was cut short but a couple million plus sold is decent for a console that started at the prices it did, although that's more the business models fault if anything.

The fact is that Sega had not seen anything of the 3Do's capabilities in action in 1992-93, they did for the Jaguar, and reacted accordingly with the 32X. Sega from their view, who would have only really seen the 3DO as a third competitor since they released their system around the same time as them and Sony's in japan (where the 3DO did pretty well the first year), had no reason to believe the Jaguar was dead when the Jaguar literally just launched in 1994. The 32X hardware, again, was already finished so there was no reason for Sega NOT to launch the 32X based on what they did know.

And the point is still being dodged, the truth of the matter is that without Sonic and Toms strategies with it (and before it) Sega would have stayed a small niche console instead of being temporarily competitive. There is no spin you can hate Tom all you want, but the dismissal of reality is just strange.
 

stranno

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Really? Cool, what are the differences?
Nobody knows yet.

 
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Not relevant to the Genesis discussion, you're moving goal posts, we are dealing with a Genesis that sold maybe at best 3 or some million worldwide, to selling gangbusters because of Tom actions in NA, which ultimately led to how Sonic was bundled. This isn't hard.

The point you miss was that SEGA was able to sell Mega Drive's and lead a market with out Tom? . It was big news that EA was onboard with 3DO and its old founder was behind the 3DO project, that was going to worry SEGA, never mind that EA already confirmed that some of its best Mega Drive titles like Madden, PGA Golf and Road Rash were coming to the 3DO. I don't go on myths but what was reported unlike you, do a little research. By mid 1994 just a lame 100,000 even Trip's hype couldn't cover it up and it was a format in trouble

 
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The point you miss was that SEGA was able to sell Mega Drive's and lead a market with out Tom? . It was big news that EA was onboard with 3DO and its old founder was behind the 3DO project, that was going to worry SEGA, never mind that EA already confirmed that some of its best Mega Drive titles like Madden, PGA Golf and Road Rash were coming to the 3DO. I don't go on myths but what was reported unlike you, do a little research. By mid 1994 just a lame 100,000 even Trip's hype couldn't cover it up and it was a format in trouble
Sorry bro but you're wrong and you're not disproving anything, you're trying to project your opinion in the past and that's not how it works.

You are also moving goal posts, without Tom and again, the Genesis wouldn't have been as big or as competitive even in Europe were it basically had no console competition yet didn't triple in sales until post Sonic and was selling slowly before then. no matter how much you hate Tom you can't deny reality and that's all you've been doing since the start of the conversation.

Sega still had EA games released on it as did other platforms, as did the new consoles, EA didn't have any games from EA made for the damn machine until Wing Commander and that's a fact, your opinion or what you want to believe is irrelevant. It took until the first price cut (which you ignored me mentioning multiple times conveniently) and an increase in sales form the games it had for EA and other third parties to start pushing software and that was exponential growth. No one was saying "3DO is dead) when it picked up on mid-1994 with a ton of games in the pipeline tripling sales figures going into 1995, it's best years with even more big games which led to Gex's release sweeping up the board. You clearly are not aware of how things played out at the time and instead are trying to project your ignorance to the past.

Just like acting like Atari Jaguar was dead by 1994 which doesn't make sense because it Launched in 1994, 1993 was a market test, and the 32X was already finished, Sega objectively had no way of knowing the 32x was a poor reaction, and if Sega knew about the 3DO, which they didn't, they would not have reacted to the Jaguar the way they did. 3Do approached Sega for a console, Sega said no, this happened, this has nothing to do with Sega talking with 3DO about the M2, a simple point you aren't able to mentally comprehend given your recent posts, Sega said No, 3DO had no demo's at the time it was mostly artificial hype even for the magazines until closer toward launch when companies said they were on board or would wait to see what would happen. The console launched at $500 or $700- for the complete package and by mid-1994 sold more than 100,000 units, but even if it did this wouldn't help your argument and would prove me right even more because then my point about the price cut and pickup and games, using your version of the story, would have meant the 3DO suddenly started selling 10X as much on hardware and maybe near triple that in software so either way the fact doesn't change that interest in the 3Do skyrocketed before the release in Japan, where it initially did well there as well the same year, 1994.

The issue is you know the 3DO only sold over a couple million consoles and it technically "failed' so you're using a tactic that the mentally deficient use where you use scattered information to paint a narrative of what happened in the past that didn't happen.



"Best month"



Everyone Increasing investments.



More interest from manufacturers an Atari damage control.

Literally at the "mid-1994 point you keep yapping about before the turn around and the software sales skyrocketed. 3Do has over 400 software titles btw. Sure it still never hit the "highly competitive" sales figures (neither did Saturn outside of japan, where in the US it didn't even do double 3DO's US LTD) and it "failed" but that doesn't mean everyone though it was "dead" at the time. it was "not" obvious it was "over" when everyone is rushing to capitalize on the "possible" potential of the machine which didn't actually come but how would they know until later?


All this though is irrelevant to the fact that this all started because you were and still are wrong about Toms influences to Sega's success despite your goal posts moves, you showing ignorance expanding the conversation further beyond your knowledge is well, dumb.
 
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Alexios

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The mentioned World League Soccer 98 looks good (and is a neat game unlike the even better looking, sans giant ball, 60fps J. League Go Go Goal that makes you wish SEGA had used the engine for a Saturn Virtua Striker), but I can't for the life of me find half decent quality footage besides this half baked version comparison.
 
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MrMephistoX

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Mednafen has worked really well for me. Haven't had any issues with it.
Runs great I just have trouble setting up the fight stick for some reason other emus just work? Did you choose 3D pad as your input or something else if you don’t mind me asking?
Here’s a screenshot of my settings.
 
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Sorry bro but you're wrong and you're not disproving anything, you're trying to project your opinion in the past and that's not how it works.

You are also moving goal posts, without Tom and again, the Genesis wouldn't have been as big or as competitive even in Europe were it basically had no console competition yet didn't triple in sales until post Sonic and was selling slowly before then. no matter how much you hate Tom you can't deny reality and that's all you've been doing since the start of the conversation.

Sega still had EA games released on it as did other platforms, as did the new consoles, EA didn't have any games from EA made for the damn machine until Wing Commander and that's a fact, your opinion or what you want to believe is irrelevant. It took until the first price cut (which you ignored me mentioning multiple times conveniently) and an increase in sales form the games it had for EA and other third parties to start pushing software and that was exponential growth. No one was saying "3DO is dead) when it picked up on mid-1994 with a ton of games in the pipeline tripling sales figures going into 1995, it's best years with even more big games which led to Gex's release sweeping up the board. You clearly are not aware of how things played out at the time and instead are trying to project your ignorance to the past.

Just like acting like Atari Jaguar was dead by 1994 which doesn't make sense because it Launched in 1994, 1993 was a market test, and the 32X was already finished, Sega objectively had no way of knowing the 32x was a poor reaction, and if Sega knew about the 3DO, which they didn't, they would not have reacted to the Jaguar the way they did. 3Do approached Sega for a console, Sega said no, this happened, this has nothing to do with Sega talking with 3DO about the M2, a simple point you aren't able to mentally comprehend given your recent posts, Sega said No, 3DO had no demo's at the time it was mostly artificial hype even for the magazines until closer toward launch when companies said they were on board or would wait to see what would happen. The console launched at $500 or $700- for the complete package and by mid-1994 sold more than 100,000 units, but even if it did this wouldn't help your argument and would prove me right even more because then my point about the price cut and pickup and games, using your version of the story, would have meant the 3DO suddenly started selling 10X as much on hardware and maybe near triple that in software so either way the fact doesn't change that interest in the 3Do skyrocketed before the release in Japan, where it initially did well there as well the same year, 1994.

Everyone knew the Jaguar was dead after its rush launched in the USA. Atari had poor retail and 3rd party support and like next to nothing from Japanese developers and come June 1994 it was so clear the platform had no future.
3DO it was clear that in June 1994 it was a dead platform too less than 100,000 units worldwide and again most 3rd parties dropping support and speaking of AT&T sales were so poor they didn't even bring their unit out

EDGE mag summed it up perfectly

 
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The mentioned World League Soccer 98 looks good (and is a neat game unlike the even better looking, sans giant ball, 60fps J. League Go Go Goal that makes you wish SEGA had used the engine for a Saturn Virtua Striker), but I can't for the life of me find half decent quality footage besides this half baked version comparison.

These for me are the best looking football games on the Saturn





Though for me this was the best football game of that generation even though looked like crap, it played like a dream and was like a 3D version of Sensible Soccer

 
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Alexios

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Hattrick Hero also showed they could have maybe tried some more cool 2D based stuff with good results. It's not particularly amazing being a tweaked arcade port (lol @ those air kicks) but you can see the technique's potential for the era. With some higher res sprites/rendering it'd be rad.

But oh well, this isn't about 2D (though this probably qualifies as 3D too, it's far from impressive anyway).
 
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Everyone knew the Jaguar was dead after its rush launched in the USA.

You can keep making stuff up but that's not going to help you, neither is your recollective source which doesn't override news paper articles, sorry mate. You're just plan ignorant and have no idea what you're talking about.

Cementing this is the "rushed" launch which never happened since the Jaguar had market tests in 1993 after a year delay, and then had a full launch later in 1994. Atari (and IBMs) incompetence resulting in buggy units and having a TP make the devs tools can create the perception the hardware was rushed but it wasn't, it was just poorly put together with bad to non-existent documentation that Atari sat on. Which wouldn't become obvious until early 1995.

Also you are becoming dumb and desperate, 3-DOA was an ATARI damage control counter attack to the 3DO, no one was saying the 3Do was actually dead, I even pasted the damn article where it came from, the 3-DOA slogan came from Ataris' CES. THEY MADE T-SHIRTS. That's where Edge got it from, as the Jaguar was initially seen as the better machine that would actually go places. Literally have scans showing the turn around later in 1994 that you are ignoring because you don't have a valid argument. (lol what do japanese developers have to do with anything? Jaguar had bad third party support across the board, but that wasn't obvious until 1995 which is when most of the deals were suppose to be fulfilled and got cancelled. Again Jaguar released nationwide in 1994 not 1993)

See what happens when you keep moving way out of your league and knowledge zone? You should stop.

What's worse is you're saying people dropped support when the 3DO PICKED UP support during that same time and turned around, which I also posted the news article scan for above, and the more investors increased stakes, and just looking at a release list you can see TP support jumped up at around the same time by 2-3x as much. I've never seen someone this incompetent, your argument can only work if you ignore the evidence, your creating a fake reality living in your own little world. Did you not notice the news paper scans? Have you bothered to actually do your own research during this discussion instead of just posting what you want to believe?

Sorry brah but as much as you want to revise History Sega had no way of knowing where the Jaguar was, the 32X came out buddy, calm down it's ok, it happened. From Sega's perspective made sense, on both ends, I know it hurts, but it happened. There there. (They also knew nothing about the 3DO from their perspective outside vague info until the Japanese launch which 3Do initially did well there soo...)

BTW, Tom helped Sega become competitive in NA and Europe, which was the original conversation your desperately trying to get away from. While you are ignoring newspapers scans from literally the time frame you are arguing about. Amazing.
 
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Alexios

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I just realised AMOK has split screen co-op for its campaign. That's pretty impressive. It's more arcadey than I like mechs but I like the look of that voxel engine, I wish we got more such games (and wish it had a cockpit camera). Maybe conventional VDP2 terrain has great draw distance but 3D objects using that probably pop-in similarly in both cases so it's not always a huge advantage and this method means the ground doesn't have to be flat or waste polygons to make it uneven. I can't find footage of anyone playing it seriously in 2 player to know if the performance goes to shit.

The draw distance sort of works more when you're underwater (no clue if many later missions are, I've not gone far) but it's fine for the type of game this is regardless. At least stuff generally also seem to come into view smoothly, smoother than in most fully polygonal games on the Saturn. How cool would it be to have gotten some Saturn Treasures of the Deep or Archimedean Dynasty style game with this sort of look but more involved game design and control schemes? Or even just a normal mech game to rival the likes of Gungriffon and Gundam, there are never enough of those. This thing throws waaaaay too many enemies at you (I guess that's why most types are sprite based, others appear polygonal) so it can feel repetitive but hey, you can play just one mission at a time and cleanse your palate with some other awesome Saturn games inbetween.
 
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Alexios

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Speaking of draw distances I think more than the actual distance (which does differ) what matters is that on PlayStation stuff usually (not in messy games like Tenchu) come into view smoothly like coming out of some kind of a fog effect, from the darkness into fully lit view (but not just in dark games, light fog, whatever). On Saturn it's like that effect usually (not as evident in showpieces like Sonic R but it's still there) comes in chunks by the quads it uses on the geometry, so the furthest ahead is dark (or fogged), the next a bit less, the next a bit less, each one popping from one state to the next, until they're in normal view. Is that due to transparencies used, or some kind of color bit depth difference or what? It's mostly visible in motion but also in the Tomb Raider screenshots earlier, the darkness is much closer than Saturn's draw distance but it's a smooth darkness. The lack of such an effect on Saturn also makes things pop up more obviously, rather than showing up smoothly each object pops in big chunks or even as the whole object after you get even closer. But maybe that's not related to the fog effect. Either way it adds to the overall more sluggish appearance.
I wonder if this is relevant (the comparison which is really low quality only shows close up results and doesn't move ahead even a little to see if it also affects how things would pop into view from the darkness, at least in this game's scenario, which is one game the Saturn actually shows better draw distance in as demonstrated earlier anyway) and if comparisons as we see them today, from official or unofficial emulation or even as best case/later model scenarios make the console look even better than it would have been for most early consumers back then. Appparently pretty much all early models up to at least 1996 when the console wars were decided had this banding issue, weird...

I'm reading it's due to a different gpu version that also causes more slowdown in cases for early models. Would be cool if we could see such enhancements for Saturn as well like what I discuss in the quote above but I'm guessing if no emulator has done it so far it's not doable without problems. Or perhaps nobody has thought to do it and increase color depth or accuracy or whatever the actual problem is, like other emulators add z buffering or whatever stops the commonly hated PlayStation polygons from warping all over the place (nope, I know I'm not that smart to be first, or do it).
 
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You can keep making stuff up but that's not going to help you, neither is your recollective source which doesn't override news paper articles, sorry mate. You're just plan ignorant and have no idea what you're talking about.

Cementing this is the "rushed" launch which never happened since the Jaguar had market tests in 1993 after a year delay, and then had a full launch later in 1994. Atari (and IBMs) incompetence resulting in buggy units and having a TP make the devs tools can create the perception the hardware was rushed but it wasn't, it was just poorly put together with bad to non-existent documentation that Atari sat on. Which wouldn't become obvious until early 1995.

The rushed Atari Jaguar launch was even more botched than the Saturn launch in the USA, it was clear to anyone that come mid-1994 the format was dead, with poor retail support and 3rd party support, most retail in the Uk most retail didn't even stock the Jaguar, not that you seem to know anything about Europe (SEGA was able to sell Millions of Master Systems and Mega Drive's in Europe before Tom even took office at Sega America ) By June of 1994 it was also clear that the 3DO wasn't going to make it with less than 100,000 sales worldwide. You only had to look in the shops or read the likes of Gamefan Ect; The 3DO and Jaguar sections always near the back of the magazine told it's own story

To put into stark contrast the launch of the Saturn in Japan sold double the units on day one and even the CD32 launch in Europe had a better userbase less than a month in, than the 3D0 could boast after 8 months on sale.
I get why the call was made and why SEGA and also no doubt Nintendo were worried but it was clear very early in the Jaguar and 3DO wasn't even a threat to the Master system or Amiga, let alone with the Mega Drive or Snes. A shame too the 3D0 was a brilliant system with some very nice games.
 
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ManaByte

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The rushed Atari Jaguar launch was even more botched than the Saturn launch in the USA, it was clear to anyone that come mid-1994 the format was dead, with poor retail support and 3rd party support, most retail in the Uk most retail didn't even stock the Jaguar, not that you seem to know anything about Europe (SEGA was able to sell Millions of Master Systems and Mega Drive's in Europe before Tom even took office at Sega America ) By June of 1994 it was also clear that the 3DO wasn't going to make it with less than 100,000 sales worldwide. You only had to look in the shops or read the likes of Gamefan Ect; The 3DO and Jaguar sections always near the back of the magazine told it's own story

To put into stark contrast the launch of the Saturn in Japan sold double the units on day one and even the CD32 launch in Europe had a better userbase less than a month in, than the 3D0 could boast after 8 months on sale.
I get why the call was made and why SEGA and also no doubt Nintendo were worried but it was clear very early in the Jaguar and 3DO wasn't even a threat to the Master system or Amiga, let alone with the Mega Drive or Snes. A shame too the 3D0 was a brilliant system with some very nice games.
The guy keeps digging up newspaper clippings and magazine articles. I worked in videogame retail back then. The Jaguar was completely dead. We had it relegated to a single spaced wall in a corner. About three small shelves for all Jag games and the couple Jag CD games. I honestly don‘t recall ever selling any Jag games or systems.

3DO was a different story. It was still semi dead but it had its owners and before the PSX picked up, it was the EA machine for stuff like the original Need for Speed and one of the better console ports of Wing 3. When they did a fire sale on the top loading system after the PlayStation and Saturn were out, lots of people jumped on it (including me). You couldn’t give away a Jaguar.
 
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The guy keeps digging up newspaper clippings and magazine articles. I worked in videogame retail back then. The Jaguar was completely dead. We had it relegated to a single spaced wall in a corner. About three small shelves for all Jag games and the couple Jag CD games. I honestly don‘t recall ever selling any Jag games or systems.

3DO was a different story. It was still semi dead but it had its owners and before the PSX picked up, it was the EA machine for stuff like the original Need for Speed and one of the better console ports of Wing 3. When they did a fire sale on the top loading system after the PlayStation and Saturn were out, lots of people jumped on it (including me). You couldn’t give away a Jaguar.
Agreed. It was clear every early in that they weren't going to be a threat to established systems. I too jumped on the 3DO when in the UK 3DO slashed the price and picked it up with the new 3DO Fifa, but even then it was clear the format wasn't going to hurt SEGA and retail support for the 3DO was also very minimal, you had to rely more on Mail order to get most of its games. Much the same for the CDi (which I also got when shops discounted stock)
 

ManaByte

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Agreed. It was clear every early in that they weren't going to be a threat to established systems. I too jumped on the 3DO when in the UK 3DO slashed the price and picked it up with the new 3DO Fifa, but even then it was clear the format wasn't going to hurt SEGA and retail support for the 3DO was also very minimal, you had to rely more on Mail order to get most of its games. Much the same for the CDi (which I also got when shops discounted stock)

The 3DO’s problem was its price. If they were able to drop the FZ-10 to $299 before Sony hit, we might be playing games on a 3DO M5 right now. They had games, but the thing launched at $700 and only dropped to $400 right before the Saturn hit for the same price.
 

UnNamed

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I'm reading it's due to a different gpu version that also causes more slowdown in cases for early models.
It was because a bug in some batch of GPU (IIRC memory?) causing a 5bit goraud shading instead of 8bit. This issue was present in some 1001 and 1002 models in Japan.
 
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And this is the problem, you're trying to project your insecurities and your place of residence across the world. The fact is Sega nor anyone else was thought the 3DO was dead, it wasnt even out in Japan yet. You Also keep bringing up incorrect figures from unreliable sources while ignoring actually written record during the time. That's the definition of trying to distort facts with your opinion.

There was never any attempt to sell the 3DO in the UK or most of Europe, they sold extra production there, they nearly never even brought up Europe in quarterly reports. It took a lot of money just to sell in the US, Japan, and Korea. Where console sales were at least decent.

When you have to spin and be dishonest for your argument to make sense you already lost. The 3DO was a failure but that wasn't clear at the start no matter how much you cry and tear your hair out. The best you could get is doubts after the initial high price point which was resolved quickly.

It's clear based on your UK and "3DO had no retail presence" posts you are trying to project your head canon over reality. I feel sorry for you But the reality is you were never in the position to argue about 3DOs viability, especially in your specified time frame you came up with. It's best you keep quiet on this issue. In fact this applies to the Jaguar too but your argument with that one is a bit more ridiculous.

Your personal anecdotes aren't relevant to the 3DOs target markets. The 3DO was seen as turning around and everyone triples dowm on it from the game industry, to outside the game industry, and consumers picked up buys. Sorry this didn't happen in the UK but sorry that's not relevant, you don't get to make your own reality and ignore the facts that were posted at the time.

Remember this whole thing came from you making the absurd claim that it was obvious the Jaguar was failing so Sega should not have released the 32x. A statement that is ludacris and no it wasn't obvious.

Whats worse is the Jaguar wasn't even fully launched in "mid-1994" this is what happens when you specify dates in your made up reality without knowledge.
 
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The guy keeps digging up newspaper clippings.
Yeah, it's called reality of the time. If you don't like facts then hey you can try all you want but it won't change history.

Whats worse is that the newspaper clippings were for the 3DO, not the Jaguar, good job not paying attention.

The argument you jumped into without checking, was other guy saying that Sega who released the 32X in reaction to the Jaguar, should have not released it because by "mid-1994" it was obvious the Jaguar failed.

Except the 32x console was already ready. Also the Jaguar didn't release fully at that time so.....


Yeaahhh....

1993 which is commonly cited poorly to be the Jaguar release date proper, was a testing phase only in new York and iirc LA. Which they sold out their entire shipment.

So his argument was wrong from the start, which is why he attempted to expand it to save it. And failed. Being from the UK makes it even worse for him.
 
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And this is the problem, you're trying to project your insecurities and your place of residence across the world. The fact is Sega nor anyone else was thought the 3DO was dead, it wasnt even out in Japan yet. You Also keep bringing up incorrect figures from unreliable sources while ignoring actually written record during the time. That's the definition of trying to distort facts with your opinion.
The problem is you. You do know the 3DO came out in Japan in March of 1994? So I wouldn't have a go at anyone, over facts if I was you.
 
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You do know the 3DO came out in Japan in March of 1994? So I wouldn't have a go at anyone, over facts if I was you.
Actually it fully launched in Japan in the summer, it was select areas, regardless doesn't really change anything.

BTW, I don't know why you would bring this up since it sabotages your positions, since the 3Do did well in Japan which was known across the board, and did even better after the price cut there. With a ton of devs tripling down on it and making games for it to the point Panasonic decided to help out in software instead of just hardware (and LG did the same in Korea).

But again this is about your lack of knowledge of the 3DO, it's about your lack of knowledge of the Jaguar and the 32X, which Sega had no way of knowing before releasing the 32X of Ataris position, and the console was already in production so you assuming they knew the Jaguar was a "failure" and they should have "skipped" on releasing the 32X doesn't really work.

If it's any consolation I do agree that since there was never serious backing they should never have released the 32X, although it did sell pretty well for the short time it was out with the games it had, but it didn't really do the job of extending the Genesis life with the somewhat poor and short support it got. It did get more games than the Jaguar and sell more than the Jaguar despite being weaker in the end so there's that.

I posted above from first hand experience in retail at the time.
Your anecdotes don't project over the multiple parts of the industry on various levels and the press in numerous locations. That's not how it works.
 
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ManaByte

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Your anecdotes don't project over the multiple parts of the industry on various levels and the press in numerous locations. That's not how it works.

Dude I fucking lived through those systems and sold them at retail at the time. I have actual experience over looking up old articles on WebArchive.

The problem is you. You do know the 3DO came out in Japan in March of 1994? So I wouldn't have a go at anyone, over facts if I was you.

This guy is looking up old articles online and playing himself off as an expert while talking down to people who were actually around for these consoles' active lifespan.
 
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Dude I fucking lived through those systems a

Stop it.

You're anecdotal evidence does not overlap what multiple parts of the press and the gaming industry were saying in various locations. That's not how it works. In 3DO's main markets mid-1994 was a turn around point, objectively more developers were on board and tripled in investment in software, after Japan release the Japanese devs did the same, thing, Objectively several supporters of varying industries increased their investments, objectively the sales were picking up, and objectively Atari had damage control T-shirts. (me saying its damage control is the only subjective thing on the list but I mean I don't think many people would disagree with that.)

The crying about your area having no games, or selling super bad and maybe some random customers said it was dead, maybe you barely got shipments, ok that doesn't impact the above facts. I can't make this any easier for you. Also I didn't get the clippings from WebArchive but hey, gotta do that spin eh?

It's like people downplaying the sales of a COD game like black ops II because they don't like COD, and they barely get shipments at their local stores of the games, and then having some customers say it's dead while everyone else is investing in the company that makes it, and customers are buying it in droves, and the press is covering it. It doesn't make anysense for you to even try this from of argument it's nonsense.
 
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Alexios

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Stop it.

You're anecdotal evidence does not overlap what multiple parts of the press and the gaming industry were saying in various locations. That's not how it works. In 3DO's main markets mid-1994 was a turn around point, objectively more developers were on board and tripled in investment in software, after Japan release the Japanese devs did the same, thing, Objectively several supporters of varying industries increased their investments, objectively the sales were picking up, and objectively Atari had damage control T-shirts. (me saying its damage control is the only subjective thing on the list but I mean I don't think many people would disagree with that.)

The crying about your area having no games, or selling super bad and maybe some random customers said it was dead, maybe you barely got shipments, ok that doesn't impact the above facts. I can't make this any easier for you. Also I didn't get the clippings from WebArchive but hey, gotta do that spin eh?

It's like people downplaying the sales of a COD game like black ops II because they don't like COD, and they barely get shipments at their local stores of the games, and then having some customers say it's dead while everyone else is investing in the company that makes it, and customers are buying it in droves, and the press is covering it. It doesn't make anysense for you to even try this from of argument it's nonsense.
Telling others to stop? Stop shitting the thread, you have your own threads for your delusions, what's wrong with you ffs? Can't even find freaking Saturn games looking through the pages because it's full of your fucking shit. Fuck.
 

ManaByte

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Telling others to stop? Stop shitting the thread, you have your own threads for your delusions, what's wrong with you ffs? Can't even find freaking Saturn games looking through the pages because it's full of your fucking shit. Fuck.

To get this thread back on topic, the Saturn version of Tomb Raider had some improvements (and drawbacks) over the PSX version:
 
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Alexios

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To get this thread back on topic, the Saturn version of Tomb Raider had some improvements (and drawbacks) over the PSX version:
Yeah, I posted examples of the draw distance being, in cases, FAR greater than the PS's in the last page. Guess why you missed it! And it has underwater distortions. Maybe without these things, a further tweaked, later released version wouldn't have the other drawbacks, like lower performance.
 
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Thanks in advance
what's wrong with you ffs? Can't even find freaking Saturn games looking through the pages because it's full of your fucking shit. Fuck.
Considering that the current argument came from this bizarre statement you should educate yourselves on what was causing the posts in the first place. The question is what is wrong with you?

Of course you can also go with your reality and ignore me but that just shows you never really understood what was going on in the first place and your mad at the wrong guy. Feel free to post on the thread topic at any time instead of wasting posts attacking me for doing nothing wrong but responding to a bizarre statement started by another user who spend the last several threads trying to expand the argument with even more nonsensical statements.
 
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ManaByte

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Yeah, I posted examples of the draw distance being, in cases, FAR greater than the PS's in the last page. Guess why you missed it! And it has underwater distortions. Maybe without these things, a further tweaked, later released version wouldn't have the other drawbacks, like lower performance.

CORE were masters of the Saturn hardware. Had Sony not paid for the exclusivity of Tomb Raider I wouldn't be shocked if Tomb Raider 2 on the Saturn looked better than the PSX one.
 

nush

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I honestly don‘t recall ever selling any Jag games or systems.

I did, Atari UK ran a competition that would give something like £500 to the person that sold the most Jaguars. This was late 95 so they were just desperate to clear stock. Anyway, me being a lowly retail worker quite fancied the idea of £500 so I set up one in the demo area and put Rayman on the Playstation, Saturn and Jag running side by side. "Look it's the same, cheaper AND it's also got Doom!". I managed to clear a few units but not enough to score the prize.
 
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PhaseJump

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Welcome to the 3D Sega Saturn thread.

Stay a while, and listen to the flame war arguments between two delusional revisionist shitheads, as they argue their takes on the reality of gaming as it pertains to Atari and 3DO in the mid-90s. Bear witness to a loser from the UK's consistent reality warping hard-on for hating Tom Kalinske ever earning any recognition.

Sega:
-Welcome to the next level (of stupidity.)
-The (fanboy) game is never over.
-It's thinking. (Just not well enough to teach it's middle aged, mentally stunted fanboys that ruin every thread, ever; to actually adhere to thread topics.)
 
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Actually it fully launched in Japan in the summer, it was select areas, regardless doesn't really change anything.
Spring I think you find, Trip even referenced the Japanese sales in the interview of him that I showed you. Japan was a little bright spot, but there again the PC FX sold over 70,000 in its 1st week and it was clear early in that format was in trouble
You only had to walk into a retail shop, read the gaming press to see the 3DO dream and the Jaguar weren't a threat to SEGA never mind Nintendo by June 1994.
 
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This guy is looking up old articles online and playing himself off as an expert while talking down to people who were actually around for these consoles' active lifespan.

Seems that way

CORE were masters of the Saturn hardware. Had Sony not paid for the exclusivity of Tomb Raider I wouldn't be shocked if Tomb Raider 2 on the Saturn looked better than the PSX one.
I don't think we really got to see what Core could do on the Hardware sadly (Core really pushed the Mega-CD mind). Tomb Raider 1 was rushed out on the Saturn to help SEGA Europe and then SONY did a deal which meant all work Tomb Raider 2 had to stop, I doubt it would have looked better on the Saturn mind, there was no getting away from the PS did 3D better Sarah Avory did say she found ways to speed up the Saturn VDP1 and was a big fan of the Hardware. We'll never know how much Core could have pushed it more so with them dropping Ninja and Fighting Force.

Tiburon gets little credit, but they did wonderful stuff on the Saturn with their ports of Madden97 and 98 and Soviet Strike which if anything was better than the PS version, I say the say was true for World League Soccer 98, NHL Powerplay,



Welcome to the 3D Sega Saturn thread.

Stay a while, and listen to the flame war arguments between two delusional revisionist shitheads, as they argue their takes on the reality of gaming as it pertains to Atari and 3DO in the mid-90s. Bear witness to a loser from the UK's consistent reality warping hard-on for hating Tom Kalinske ever earning any recognition.

Sega:
-Welcome to the next level (of stupidity.)
-The (fanboy) game is never over.
-It's thinking. (Just not well enough to teach it's middle aged, mentally stunted fanboys that ruin every thread, ever; to actually adhere to thread topics.)

Tom's knuckle fighting fan?

Welcome to the Next Level (just with the same old tired insults)
 

DT MEDIA

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Also we've mentioned the deficiences of Tomb Raider (which again is close enough to PS for a multiplat) but it should be noted that on Saturn it also has a slightly longer draw distance that can be quite apparent in certain areas and less in others and the underwater distortion over the PS.




I saw in a video a long corridor where the next area on the Saturn was visible and on the PS the tunnel slowly came in view but can't find it now. Saturn on the top here:

Who knows, maybe it'd perform better if they had adjusted the draw distance to match? Either way it's a well documented rushed to launch game, there are even tweaks and fixes in the later Japanese version.


This is a very good comparison. Ideally, I'd like to see screenshots from the original Playstation, as PS2 and PS3 do enhance the picture with smoother textures (and any Dreamcast fan will remember Bleemcast). But this makes for a very good comparison between the Sega and Sony Tomb Raiders.

The draw distance is clearly longer on Saturn, and this clearly had an impact on the frame rate in more open areas. It was very common for computers at that time to choke when being asked to draw and render such large spaces. The PSX version was being developed later, so you can see how Core was thinking of optimizing that frame rate by cutting down on the draw distance. Again, it's a common trade-off of the era and demonstrates how this videogame was constantly evolving as it was migrating from Saturn to Playstation to PC (which has the definitive version, of course).

I do remember that back in 1996, everybody thought Tomb Raider looked better on Playstation, but I only really saw both versions once or twice at a local Twin Cities Funcoland, and since the mood of the time was very anti-Sega, it was easy to pick a winner. Today, with the benefit of time and far more powerful technology, we can relax and be more generous, and both of these versions look almost identical. Some elements are better on PSX, like the frame rate, while other elements are better on Saturn, like the draw distance and water distortion effects. Gouraud shading and light sourcing look a little different on each platform, and it's really just a matter of personal taste, although I will say that I really like the heavy contrast lighting and deep blacks on Saturn. It feels more authentic and genuine, but at the cost of making it difficult to find your way around more shadowy areas. The PSX and PC versions raised the lighting quite a bit, making it easy to see in dark areas but at the cost of making everything look a little washed out. Again, this was ultimately a design decision made by Core as the project evolved.

Oh, and can we bring up the rarely-discussed subject of Playstation zig-zags? Just look at the tile floors in Lara Croft's mansion. It's hideous. That console can't draw a straight line to save its life. Maybe the PSX mascot should have been Barney Gumbel dressed as the Plow King?

By modern standards, of course, both versions of Tomb Raider look pretty ugly, but there's a certain charm and grace in that grittiness. I'd say they're both good on their own merits.
 
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Ozzie666

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No matter what people say, the 3D0 had it's 15 minutes of fame. I guess in 1994, when EA sports games hit, Road Rash, Need for Speed, etc. These were a significant jump over what had previously been offered, even over the Sega CD. Never mind the price, there was an experience to be had there. Playing Madden and NHL were memorable in my group of friends, stuck somewhere between 16 and 32 bit generations and multi-media games.

I can't say the same for the Jaguar, at all. Jaguar seemed like some island for abandoned Amiga developers and CD32 failures. Atari and some of their licensing agreements were laughable, they really thought they were a force still. The whole Jaguar effort was terrible and finally killed the company proper. Atari would have been better off to release their Panther system in 1991/92 to compete on a 2D landscape with SNES/Genesis. They would have had much more support from third parties.

As stated, 3D0 had an impact, if only briefly. Samurai Showdown and Street Fighter coming later, pretty decent efforts too. To many problems to compete with what was coming a year later. Their business model was doomed from the start, as much as Trip hated the way Sega and Nintendo did business. You had to subsidize the hardware through licensing, or take the losses.

I have a soft spot for the 3D0 and 32x. But if it wasn't for Electronic Arts efforts, I might not have been interested at all. Imagine Electronic Arts at their Peak, when they were cool.
 
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The draw distance sort of works more when you're underwater (no clue if many later missions are, I've not gone far) but it's fine for the type of game this is regardless. At least stuff generally also seem to come into view smoothly, smoother than in most fully polygonal games on the Saturn. How cool would it be to have gotten some Saturn Treasures of the Deep or Archimedean Dynasty style game with this sort of look but more involved game design and control schemes? Or even just a normal mech game to rival the likes of Gungriffon and Gundam, there are never enough of those. This thing throws waaaaay too many enemies at you (I guess that's why most types are sprite based, others appear polygonal) so it can feel repetitive but hey, you can play just one mission at a time and cleanse your palate with some other awesome Saturn games inbetween.

You make good points. Gundam did look lovely on the Saturn, it didn't play (well control) that great mind. We also got a great port of Mech Warrior 2 which was sadly overlooked, it made lovely use of VDP2.
I still say Gun Griffon was/is the best Mech game around So sad the sequel was never brought over, thanks Bernie



 
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UnNamed

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Please open a 3DO vs Jaguar separate thread. Or better, there is already a thread like this somewhere, use that and don't break the balls.
 
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Ozzie666

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This is a very good comparison. Ideally, I'd like to see screenshots from the original Playstation, as PS2 and PS3 do enhance the picture with smoother textures (and any Dreamcast fan will remember Bleemcast). But this makes for a very good comparison between the Sega and Sony Tomb Raiders.

The draw distance is clearly longer on Saturn, and this clearly had an impact on the frame rate in more open areas. It was very common for computers at that time to choke when being asked to draw and render such large spaces. The PSX version was being developed later, so you can see how Core was thinking of optimizing that frame rate by cutting down on the draw distance. Again, it's a common trade-off of the era and demonstrates how this videogame was constantly evolving as it was migrating from Saturn to Playstation to PC (which has the definitive version, of course).

I do remember that back in 1996, everybody thought Tomb Raider looked better on Playstation, but I only really saw both versions once or twice at a local Twin Cities Funcoland, and since the mood of the time was very anti-Sega, it was easy to pick a winner. Today, with the benefit of time and far more powerful technology, we can relax and be more generous, and both of these versions look almost identical. Some elements are better on PSX, like the frame rate, while other elements are better on Saturn, like the draw distance and water distortion effects. Gouraud shading and light sourcing look a little different on each platform, and it's really just a matter of personal taste, although I will say that I really like the heavy contrast lighting and deep blacks on Saturn. It feels more authentic and genuine, but at the cost of making it difficult to find your way around more shadowy areas. The PSX and PC versions raised the lighting quite a bit, making it easy to see in dark areas but at the cost of making everything look a little washed out. Again, this was ultimately a design decision made by Core as the project evolved.

Oh, and can we bring up the rarely-discussed subject of Playstation zig-zags? Just look at the tile floors in Lara Croft's mansion. It's hideous. That console can't draw a straight line to save its life. Maybe the PSX mascot should have been Barney Gumbel dressed as the Plow King?

By modern standards, of course, both versions of Tomb Raider look pretty ugly, but there's a certain charm and grace in that grittiness. I'd say they're both good on their own merits.
I think Tomb Raider and Resident Evil, if released on time and at the same time, were more than fair ports/versions compared to the PS1 Versions. Both hold up fairly well, the weakness being the mesh shading vs transparencies. Of course it took more effort to succeed on Saturn, even with updated tools/libraries. But honestly, their Sega/Mega-CD efforts were more impressive. i am not sure how much better they could have been on Saturn and if the sequels could have progressed much further.

I have always been under the impression that back then, Amiga/ST developers were far superior coders/creators than any North American gaming houses who didn't work on 68k machines (excluding Cinemaeware and Readysoft).

Core Design punched well above their weight on the European 16-bit machines. They released several notable games in a large quantity yearly. Same thing could be said about Magnetic Fields from Gremlin, Digital Illusions, Bitmap Brothers, Storm, Factor 5, Team 17 and Psygnosis to a smaller degree.
 
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Alexios

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This is a very good comparison. Ideally, I'd like to see screenshots from the original Playstation, as PS2 and PS3 do enhance the picture with smoother textures (and any Dreamcast fan will remember Bleemcast). But this makes for a very good comparison between the Sega and Sony Tomb Raiders.

The draw distance is clearly longer on Saturn, and this clearly had an impact on the frame rate in more open areas. It was very common for computers at that time to choke when being asked to draw and render such large spaces. The PSX version was being developed later, so you can see how Core was thinking of optimizing that frame rate by cutting down on the draw distance. Again, it's a common trade-off of the era and demonstrates how this videogame was constantly evolving as it was migrating from Saturn to Playstation to PC (which has the definitive version, of course).

I do remember that back in 1996, everybody thought Tomb Raider looked better on Playstation, but I only really saw both versions once or twice at a local Twin Cities Funcoland, and since the mood of the time was very anti-Sega, it was easy to pick a winner. Today, with the benefit of time and far more powerful technology, we can relax and be more generous, and both of these versions look almost identical. Some elements are better on PSX, like the frame rate, while other elements are better on Saturn, like the draw distance and water distortion effects. Gouraud shading and light sourcing look a little different on each platform, and it's really just a matter of personal taste, although I will say that I really like the heavy contrast lighting and deep blacks on Saturn. It feels more authentic and genuine, but at the cost of making it difficult to find your way around more shadowy areas. The PSX and PC versions raised the lighting quite a bit, making it easy to see in dark areas but at the cost of making everything look a little washed out. Again, this was ultimately a design decision made by Core as the project evolved.

Oh, and can we bring up the rarely-discussed subject of Playstation zig-zags? Just look at the tile floors in Lara Croft's mansion. It's hideous. That console can't draw a straight line to save its life. Maybe the PSX mascot should have been Barney Gumbel dressed as the Plow King?

By modern standards, of course, both versions of Tomb Raider look pretty ugly, but there's a certain charm and grace in that grittiness. I'd say they're both good on their own merits.
On zig zag I just can't get past SEGA fucking it up and somehow making the worst case of polygon warping ever seen in SEGA Touring Car Championship. On a system known for its lack. I bet that if it wasn't for that, far more people would have prasied the game. It deserved better, very playable.
 
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cireza

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I think Tomb Raider and Resident Evil, if released on time and at the same time, were more than fair ports/versions compared to the PS1 Versions. Both hold up fairly well, the weakness being the mesh shading vs transparencies. Of course it took more effort to succeed on Saturn, even with updated tools/libraries. But honestly, their Sega/Mega-CD efforts were more impressive. i am not sure how much better they could have been on Saturn and if the sequels could have progressed much further.

I have always been under the impression that back then, Amiga/ST developers were far superior coders/creators than any North American gaming houses who didn't work on 68k machines (excluding Cinemaeware and Readysoft).

Core Design punched well above their weight on the European 16-bit machines. They released several notable games in a large quantity yearly. Same thing could be said about Magnetic Fields from Gremlin, Digital Illusions, Bitmap Brothers, Storm, Factor 5, Team 17 and Psygnosis to a smaller degree.
I agree with you that during the 16 bits era, Europe already had some very talented developers on MegaDrive and Mega-CD, that had built their past experience on gaming computers. USA took pretty much the entirety of the MegaDrive lifespan to eventually get to a good level.

Core Designs were pretty great indeed, their games were very impressive on MegaDrive and Mega-CD, and their games were a highlight of the Mega-CD. However, I think that the jump to Tomb Raider was incredibly impressive for them. I don't find it less impressive, I think a lot of work was involved in making Tomb Raider, without a doubt much more than doing the Mega-CD games.

I would have loved to see more games from them on Saturn.
 
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