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Most impressive 3D-Games for the Sega Saturn

  • Thread starter SpongebobSquaredance
  • Start date

DaGwaphics

Member
SRE33qil.jpg

WTF. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
The Hardware was ready that's was messed SEGA America planning of the 32X and even back in 1993 Sega America had early Saturn development kits and set up the Away Team, Sure the Price was high but there was nothing SEGA America could do about that.
The 32X was actually a genius reaction to the Jaguar if Japan had actually backed it and supported west/japan dev deals and marketing across US/JP/EU, as the original Saturn specs were not that good and the similrities would have allowed the 32X to bridge developers to the Saturn, the Saturn could have been a modestly, sold modestly budgeted and marketed consoles that would grow over time and more high profile games were made for it, and it would have given Sega 2 paths of revenue to prepare for another bigger system down the line instead of trying to take a shoddy and weak foundation that was the saturn, tape it with bandaids, and make it a fire pit for cash,

The Saturn hardware wasn't ready. The software wasn't ready. The tools weren't ready, and the price would be too high. Kalinske warned Sega of Japan about all of that, and I would say he was right. Bernie coming out and saying the Saturn wasn't their future in '96 meant almost 3 years of next to no revenue coming in!
Sega was on the red line even before that statement and not as many people heard that as people think in retrospect.

Cds could store fmvs and more audio, that's about it.
Uh, Cd's could store pretty much everything including assets and background/foreground elements in game design, the flexibility, space, and ease of accessing the game data + Low price and new format supports for various video, graphical, and audio inputs/outputs are why CD's were adopted so widely, that was the goal for for games and even outside of games for decades, the fact CD could do all that, was cheap and easy to produce, and was easy to support and quickly evolved to be more interactive is why it dominated and even ended up upgrading to a point where CD-i was useless since CD-i was originally made to be a more interactive CD with flexible features and access to superiors video and audio formats and image codecs. By 1995 CD-i and all the other variations of CD were useless and everyone was using 3rd generation CD-R.

Or how the N64 must have slow frame rates. I can at least understand that since the games that suffer from this are some of it's more popular ones. But again it's not a universal thing. Again, it's only because of the popularity of the games that had these issues.
No N64 had worse frame issues across the board, this revisionist nosnense about it only being some known popular and/or cult titles was debunked like 20 years ago.
 
The Saturn not getting a Sonic Team-developed Sonic title was not Kalinske's fault. He couldn't go to Japan and put a gun to Yuji Naka's head and force them to make Sonic for the Saturn. Sonic Team wanted to make NiGHTS (this is why you sometimes have to outsource). Again, Kalinske recognized that Saturn needed a Sonic title and tried to fix the problem with Sonic Xtreme, but it just didn't work out. And even when STI wanted to use the NiGHTS engine, Sonic Team said no! Not Kalinske's fault.

Thanks to Tom we never got a 3D Sonic for the Saturn with STI inept handling of the project a project that was given to SEGA America in 1994 and by 1996 had little to show off and example of how not to run a studio or project: Lets have 2 teams making the same game for 4 different systems at various stages.


This nosnense about a 3D Sonic for the Saturn doing anything is something that has always puzzled me and seems to be a rabid fan dream. At best it would have sold more than Sonic R, Jam, and 3D Blast combined, which isn't saying much, it would barely move Saturns.

People, don't get that Sonic was already on fumes before the Saturn was out, or they do realize it in the back of their head but their fanboyism refuses to see it. Sonics peak was and still is he First game (and the second is the Silver peak) the circumstances leading to Sonic 1's release and after it came out, and how Sega handled it, was never replicated, this is why Sonic 2, despite a more aggressive campaign sold like 65-70%~ less than Sonic 1, Sonic CD could barely move Sega CD's, in fact some "gaming news" outlets and "magazines" intentional or not was passing this nonsense number of 5-6 million Sega CD's sold with Sonic selling near 1:1 back in the day pushing artificial hype, Sonic CD barely moved CD's but it was released during Sonics somewhat better years so it did do somewhat well.

Then you had Sonic 2 which sold over 50% less than Sonic 2, which Sonic and Knuckles sold almost 50% less than that, Sonic Spinball during the earlier part of the peak could only muster around 1 million sales mostly frontloaded iirc, and Sonic CD later on was no where near making it on the board.
'
By 1995 Sonic was a hype franchise with aggressive marketing for games, merchandise, comics, and TV but it didn't have the sales longevity or stabilization for a game like Sonic Xtreme to do anything for the Saturn even if they were to get it out before the end of the year or by holiday 1997.

Look at the Dreamcast and Sonic Adventure, you needed a break basically and a console with a middling reputation and you had to do a "come back" story with insane attitude and aggressive marketing while pushing the 3D hype angle to cover for the game design flaws, mixed in with a new overhyped ecosystem for the console itseld and using Sonic Adventure to frontline this new in your face image at an affordable price getting praise from paid and unpaid outlets across the board for this magnificent machine and it's hyped software and Sonic Adventure still only sold around 2.5-3 million units across the Dreamcasts lifespan.

I'm not saying Sonic was a fluke, but it's clear to me Sega mishandled it and had no idea why the first (and lesser extend second) game got to where they were, they weren't able to sustain the franchise, despite it being the focus and brand of the Genesis. It's better to just realize Sonic Xtreme or not Sonic wasn't saving anything.
 
Well, they couldn't do anything about the sound chip but the cart size was their choice. They decided to be cheap and use a 8MB cart in late 97 where 12MB ones were pretty common and i think even 16MB ones existed. I mean, it's Duke Nukem, not some obscure indie title, they could do better than that.

But even then, i don't think the cart size was the issue at all. Midi/chip music takes very little space even on the N64. You have a game like Banjo-Kazooie with more than 250 music tracks (because a lot of the tracks have different variations) and the USF music game rip library is still less than 1MB. Goldeneye's music is 600KB.

You aren't considering size, compression, and sound tools used in making the tracks..

Rayman CD is mostly midi music yet it doesn't sound like midi music. Just like on the SNES the 7 second town loop in Robotrek sounds better than the SNES entire music library despite it still being a compressed midi.

What's used for the tracks can determine the size, assuming all Midis are going to be around the same size and quality doesn't work. Jaguar has games on it that are lazy and sound like a cross between a PC shareware and early Megadrive quality, and it also has games that have near CD quality blowing most N64 midis outt he water, and yet even among those best sounding Jaguar games most of them are lower in size than some of the worst N64 music.

It's not a black and white issue.
 
Dreamcast had its work cut out from the get-go....Sega were on the ropes circa 1998 compared to where they were prior to the launch of the Genesis/Megadrive..
Sega wasn't really a super star back then either, their console was more of a way to access games for extra money while popular games were licensed out to companies to put out on other systems, sometimes with input from them. Sonic 1 seemed to change Sega into really competing in the gaming space to attempt and fail to win. I don't think Sega really understood what to do in order to make it happen, especially Sega of Japan, who was furious about what SoA to start this new phase.

And Sega removing themselves from any real market presence for most of 1998 and 1999 (until Dreamcast marketing and launch) in the West was a complete disastrous move in hindsight. That was 12 - 18 months of mindshare and relevancy practically wiped out, while Sony and Nintendo solidified their brands with massive growth (TR3, RE2, Parasite Eve, Fear Effect, RE3, FF VIII etc. with Sony, Pokemon's popularity explosion for Nintendo).

I will never understand their decision to do that, they didn't even consider doing a few ports of some of the Japan-exclusive JRPGs/adventure games etc. to keep Western fans satiated.

Because niche Japan exclusive games would cost money to translate for games that wouldn't, Jrpgs barely did anything on the PS1 outside FF and that's the console everyone had, the FF7 myth is a myth and it will always be a myth. Plus, even at a basic break even goal Sega was in no position for those kind of games to sell, look at the best selling Saturn games outside japan, which weren't selling very well in the first place, it was sports, fighting which was oversaturated based on the Saturns sales performance, and some entries in already popular franchises and games bundled with the system.

As for market presence by 1998 Sega barely had market presence, they were in the red in every gaming segment they were in Portable, Education, Computer, Arcade, Console, they already had been reducing shelf presence and cut down store shipments of consoles, as well as software production and they were still losing money on the Saturn. That near 2 year delay in really doing anything with the Saturn may be the only reason why we got the Dreamcast, especially in the quantity it sold hardware and software, which was released on margin combined with rich company exec and donor money.

And with that financial turmoil how could they fund a Crash 3, or GTA, or RRT4, or Tekken 3, or Twisted Metal 3 to pad out the Saturn inbetween that time? Wasting money to put out games that won't sell enough to cover costs on a system bleeding money?

1994 and never knew Saturn even existed, so it was a pretty long time away from the limelight. I think this was one of the key reasons why 1999 was such a successful year for Dreamcast. For most gamers at the time, it felt like a genuine comeback.
In America mostly, and if Sega has focused on that market with limited scaling shipments in a few select European countries and a limited overall shipment in Japan instead of the SoJ Connected market nonsense Sega may have made enough of a comeback to try another console and then attempt a more WW release. Sega with Dreamcast basically lost everything in the casino and then bet their credit cards an a margin loan from the Casino on the same slot machine that made them lose everything the first time, this time by various loan sharks, and they had no income.

I think David Rosen (the man who had founded Sega) always thought that Sega should be a software house rather than getting into the world of hardware...

Hardware was a revenue stream to bring in potential profits to a Sega centric hardware for fans of their games, that's how Sega entered the industry from the Start. It's also why near almost every system had licensed versions of Sega's most popular software up until the started trying to aggressively compete in the market which they completely botched and I still say they never really understood what happened between 1990-1992 and why it was such an explosive time for Sega.

By 1996 Sega was bleeding and Sony was some new guy who already had access to millions of budget which could scale to billion on a whim due to the sheer riches Sony had at the time, and Nintendo still had holdovers that didn't abandon ship, though many did, from the NES time period and their systems were build cheap to be expanded from the start, so Sega was basically competing with money they did not have against to companies filled with money.

3DO was the last "new comer" that was actually knew with any sort of reach or marketing and distribution campaign that could have managed to stay in the industry without wasting billions of dollars, they tried to compete with Sony with fire sales, in fact more 3Do's sold mid 1995 to 1997 of their last shipments and sale to Samsung (3DO hardware was sold to them) then 1993-mid 1995 because of the game deals and rapidly dropping prices, this is what made it so 3Do which was somewhat profitable and most losses went to Goldstar(LG), Panasonic, and Sanyo, ended up losing millions themselves across the board and it scared them into cancelling the M2. Sega really didn't have that much money than 3DO did in early 1995, their revenue was higher, and it would SEEM like they were much richer because Sega had their hands in all these places but they were also bleeding in everything they were in and in just two years they would need margin and direct contribution to even launch the Dreamcast. The way they handled the Saturn was always foolish, they should have only partially competed and focused on their strengths to keep Genesis fans and to fill the gap the PSX didnt have and the N64 delay would have helped with that, instead they reacted and fumbled.
 

nkarafo

Member
No N64 had worse frame issues across the board, this revisionist nosnense about it only being some known popular and/or cult titles was debunked like 20 years ago.
Nah, i already debunked this myth by giving many examples. Or maybe i was lucky and the vast majority of games i had on the system were all the games with smooth and stable framerates.
 
You didn't debunk anything, it's not a myth, finding a few games matching the count of the games people usually mention isn't debunking if the average random game has issues in a 300 game library were most of the games are tiers C to D.
 
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
This nosnense about a 3D Sonic for the Saturn doing anything is something that has always puzzled me and seems to be a rabid fan dream. At best it would have sold more than Sonic R, Jam, and 3D Blast combined, which isn't saying much, it would barely move Saturns.
So you going to tell me, that the commercially and domestically biggest franchise by Sega and the reason why Sega overtook Nintendo's market share for a short period of time wouldn't have helped them? The same franchise that just recently had a very successful movie. The same franchise that sold over 200 million games and despite some questionable entries is still very marketable after all these years. Wild theory!
the circumstances leading to Sonic 1's release and after it came out, and how Sega handled it, was never replicated, this is why Sonic 2, despite a more aggressive campaign sold like 65-70%~
It sold less because Sonic 1 was a pack-in title. Super Mario Bros. 3 also sold less than Super Mario Bros. 1.
Go figure why.

supermariosales.gif


I guess Mario was just a one-time phenomenon. Or it was a game that was heavily sold by being a pack-in title.

By 1995 Sonic was a hype franchise with aggressive marketing for games, merchandise, comics, and TV but it didn't have the sales longevity or stabilization for a game like Sonic Xtreme to do anything for the Saturn even if they were to get it out before the end of the year or by holiday 1997.
Hypothesis

Sonic Adventure still only sold around 2.5-3 million units across the Dreamcasts lifespan.
That means every third Dreamcast owner had Sonic Adventure. That's good given the circumstances.
 
You're only hurting yourself with your pointless chart of massively bundled with console mario sales, it just makes Sonics "bundles" look much worse in comparison. Especially for the time. Sonic 2 was also bundled btw. And you are ignoring the downward trend that continues at similar rates.

You can ignore the fact but you went from 15+ with 6 million with a more aggressive campaign, and then it shrank all the way to selling less than 1 million for a game. Then you had 3 Saturn games that didn't maintain any of the hype so either

A. Franchise fatique was in when 3D Blast released

B. There wasn't much interest in the series for fans to really but the other Sonic Saturn games.

Dreamcast had insane circumstance surrounding it, and SA1 was a massive bundled WW release, it only did 1 million more than Sonic CD and some change, with more resources spend and used on the game, during a "comeback" phase.

Show me where the interest was for a Sonic Xtreme to save the Saturn even if it came out in holiday 97 or even in holiday 96? It would sell a couple million being a next gen 3D Sonic game that wasn't 3D blast? Sure, was it going to shift more than that? Not very likely, was it going to move a lot of Saturns? No.

Just like how Sonic Adventure which was heavily bundled originally couldn't generate the same interest.

You can't ignore that 15 million Sonic buyers who were interested in the game dropped to 6 million for Sonic 2 in interest which dropped to below 3 million which dropped to below 2 million, and think that's a healthy trend I don't care how much of a Sonic fanboy you are. That means interest in Sonic was never stable and the amount of retained buyers was basically an oil leak.
 
Nah, i already debunked this myth by giving many examples. Or maybe i was lucky and the vast majority of games i had on the system were all the games with smooth and stable framerates.
Shit, plenty of racers were near locked 30fps. RR64, wipeout, mk64, f zero x was locked 60. Doom 64 solid 30, ray man 2 in low res mode, Mario 64 ; we could go for days here. Star fox 64 until explosions filled the screen. Banjo kazooie is was pretty solid for the most part, tooie was the problem child.
 
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Shit, plenty of racers were near locked 30fps. RR64, wipeout, mk64, f zero x was locked 60. Doom 64 solid 30, ray man 2 in low res mode, Mario 64 ; we could go for days here. Star fox 64 until explosions filled the screen. Banjo kazooie is was pretty solid for the most part, tooie was the problem child.
This is just naming known popular games that run well compared to the known popular games that don't. The N64 has over 300 games a lot of them have issues.

Now with that said N64 (and don't want to go off on it too much as it's a Saturn thread) is not the worst FPS game console of that era that could do "real" 3D, that would be the 3DO. That slow CPu you can do tricks with it, you can pull some consistent FPS, but there are games were we are talking 5fps no exagerration to like 12fps and bouncing all over the place. N64 is not that bad.

TO be fair 3DO was made with the latest parts in 1992 for the time so it kind of jumped in very early on the CPU front.
 
This is just naming known popular games that run well compared to the known popular games that don't. The N64 has over 300 games a lot of them have issues.

Now with that said N64 (and don't want to go off on it too much as it's a Saturn thread) is not the worst FPS game console of that era that could do "real" 3D, that would be the 3DO. That slow CPu you can do tricks with it, you can pull some consistent FPS, but there are games were we are talking 5fps no exagerration to like 12fps and bouncing all over the place. N64 is not that bad.

TO be fair 3DO was made with the latest parts in 1992 for the time so it kind of jumped in very early on the CPU front.
We are just saying bro, Saturn and PS were not immune to the slideshow effect. It’s not vastly worse on 64 ; if anything the big games like goldeneye and tooie run kinda bad because they’re ambitious. On Saturn and PS limitations were more evident so they were not pushed as hard. Saturn wipeout is crap. Ps1 Tony Hawk runs worse than 64! Every console has issues from game to game!
 

nkarafo

Member
You didn't debunk anything, it's not a myth, finding a few games matching the count of the games people usually mention isn't debunking if the average random game has issues in a 300 game library were most of the games are tiers C to D.
You sound like you played all 300 games so you must know the exact ratio.

I only played like 1/3 of them so my ratio must be off so i'm interested to know.
 
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
You can ignore the fact but you went from 15+ with 6 million with a more aggressive campaign, and then it shrank all the way to selling less than 1 million for a game. Then you had 3 Saturn games that didn't maintain any of the hype so either
You ignore the fact that Sonic 1 sold so much because it was a pack-in title, just like the original Super Mario Bros and Super Mario World.
A Super Mario World 2 (that is not Yoshi Island, which sold 5 million copies btw. despite being named SMW 2) on the SNES would've done much less than the original too. Obviously.

A Sonic 1 that wasn't a pack-in title wouldn't have done 20 million. A Mario Bros. wouldn't have done 40 million. A Super Mario World wouldn't have done 20 million.

Sonic 2 was hardly bundled, especially not in the same fashion as the original. Sonic Adventure was not a pack-in title. Where do you get that from?

Sales[edit]​

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 broke video game sales records upon release.[110] Prior to release, the game had already sold 2.2 million units to retailers by October 1992.[111] It set a pre-order record in Europe with 1.5 million game cartridges ordered in five countries, including 750,000 units in the United Kingdom worth £25 million ($44 million) at retail, along with 750,000 orders in France, Germany, Spain, and Austria.[112] Upon release, it became the fastest-selling game in the United Kingdom with a record 750,000 sales within a week,[113] while Sega of America sold over 400,000 copies in the United States within six days,[114] with a debut gross of $20 million at US retail.[115] The game's initial worldwide batch of 3.2 million cartridges sold out in two weeks, outpacing the original Sonic the Hedgehog.[116] It was the UK's number-one game during November[117] and December 1992,[118] and for two months it was the top-seller on the UK Mega Drive charts,[119] Japan Mega Drive charts, and US Genesis charts.[120]

Sonic 2 went on to sell 5 million units within 60 days,[121] and grossed $450 million in 1992 ($820 million adjusted for inflation), more than any film or other entertainment product that year.[122][123] It had also become the best-selling 16-bit video game ever at the time, as of November 1993.[124] The game sold 5 million copies in North America alone by 1996,[125] 750,000 copies in the United Kingdom in its first week alone,[113] 400,000 units in Japan by March 1993,[126] and 750,000 pre-orders in France, Germany, Spain, and Austria,[112] for a worldwide total of more than 6 million cartridges sold during the console's lifespan.[127] This makes it the second best-selling Sega Genesis/Mega Drive game, behind only the original Sonic the Hedgehog which was bundled with the system.


My input: Sonic 2 definitely sold more than 6 million, but no matter if it did 6 million, or 8 (my estimate) or even 10, those a great numbers, no matter how hard you try to twist the reality. Sonic 1 is like Wii Sports. It was the pack-in title after its release in 91 and because of that, it managed to sell 20 million copies. You have to consider that, otherwise, your theory is worthless. Sonic 2 wasn't bundled in the same fashion and did most of its sales as a stand-alone release.

You can't ignore that 15 million Sonic buyers who were interested in the game dropped to 6 million for Sonic 2 in interest which dropped to below 3 million which dropped to below 2 million,
I don't, but I am going to ignore you as you are shitting up this thread with nonsense theories and borderline console warring. So, cheers.
 
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sunnysideup

Banned
We are just saying bro, Saturn and PS were not immune to the slideshow effect. It’s not vastly worse on 64 ; if anything the big games like goldeneye and tooie run kinda bad because they’re ambitious. On Saturn and PS limitations were more evident so they were not pushed as hard. Saturn wipeout is crap. Ps1 Tony Hawk runs worse than 64! Every console has issues from game to game!

Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.

Most high end playstation games dont have these type of framerate issues, and they have better graphics to boot. Most high end games on psone run at a solid 30fps.

zelda oot, zelda mm, ge, pd, turok 2, conker, banjo tooie, rouge squadron, jet force jemni all have crap framerates.

This is like half of the systems "quality" line up.
 
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nkarafo

Member
Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.

Most high end playstation games dont have these type of framerate issues, and they have better graphics to boot. Most high end games on psone run at a solid 30fps.

zelda oot, zelda mm, ge, pd, turok 2, conker, banjo tooie, rouge squadron, jet force jemni all have crap framerates.

This is like half of the systems "quality" line up.
You don't seem familiar with the N64 library. You are just mentioning the same few games everyone is mentioning. And these are a small part of the system's best games.
 

sunnysideup

Banned
You don't seem familiar with the N64 library. You are just mentioning the same few games everyone is mentioning. And these are a small part of the system's best games.

N64 was the first system i bought that gen. I have an ntsc n64 and an pal. probably own around 40 games cib.

I had all three system back then and still do.
 
Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.

Most high end playstation games dont have these type of framerate issues, and they have better graphics to boot. Most high end games on psone run at a solid 30fps.

zelda oot, zelda mm, ge, pd, turok 2, conker, banjo tooie, rouge squadron, jet force jemni all have crap framerates.

This is like half of the systems "quality" line up.
Did you just put quality in quotations when talking about Zelda, Goldeneye, Conker and banjo. They were Quality, not “quality”. Classics. Classics among classics.

I’m not the biggest fan of ps1 but I’m not going to talk crap about some of its rpgs, Spyro, crash, mgs1, Ridge racer etc. And I never even had a Saturn, but I wish I did back then. Great contribution Daniel Thomas MacInnes Daniel Thomas MacInnes btw. Makes me want to play Saturn for sure. Saturn has that cool factor.

Vastly worse is a gross exaggeration in my estimation, and I have over 60 n64 games atm. The myth that PS1 is buttery smooth is just that ; myth. Shit man, I remember frame dips in block torso and hands ff7 at points.

I think this thread has gone a bit long on this discussion, so I bow out. Will post on anything Saturn related
 
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sunnysideup

Banned
Did you just put quality in quotations when talking about Zelda, Goldeneye, Conker and banjo. They were Quality, not “quality”. Classics. Classics among classics.

I’m not the biggest fan of ps1 but I’m not going to talk crap about some of its rpgs, Spyro, crash, mgs1, Ridge racer etc. And I never even had a Saturn, but I wish I did back then. Great contribution Daniel Thomas MacInnes Daniel Thomas MacInnes btw. Makes me want to play Saturn for sure. Saturn has that cool factor.

Vastly worse is a gross exaggeration in my estimation, and I have over 60 n64 games atm. The myth that PS1 is buttery smooth is just that ; myth. Shit man, I remember frame dips in block torso and hands ff7 at points.

I think this thread has gone a bit long on this discussion, so I bow out. Will post on anything Saturn related

Ps1 and saturn has the same framerate situation as most post 16bit systems do. mostly 30fps, with some titles being crap and some 60fps.

N64 is an outlier. The crappy framerates sticks out.
 
Just watched a slice of Panzer dragoon saga. What a beautiful game. Art direction is great. There's a severe deficit of games like this coming out of the modern gaming world imo.

Looked up the music track for the caravan areas (Nomad) to find a piano version of it played by the original composer. Beautiful track. Heartwarming performance.

(...)

Simpler times...lot of fun though :)


More than often do I want you guys, and/or your colleagues in the biz, to go back to that philosophy and entry point.

Simplicity can do so much for a game's world building and graphic design (by "simplicity" I'm not refering to overdone modern "flat" minimalism and brutalism). Adding such things as expensive voice actors or going for extremely high detailing is just clutter. Most of the time its just superfluous. The idea is comparable to the essence of "brevity is the soul of wit". "Less is more" conveys a message far better than an over-detailed and visually over complex scenery can. Plus, it leaves room to work on improving the remaining facets.

(...)

Poor Sega. Politics and hubris, did them in, It wasn't the hardware. Sony was strong enough to survive and turn around their PS3 hubris and stumbles. That is the difference.

Saturn was more than capable and it's potential was left untapped. We only had glimpses.

I'm a proponent of opening deprecated platforms up for hobbyists/amateur gamedevs to explore and experiment with their capabilities. It would be great to see some gamedev scenes spring up and max out older platform's capabilities to see what they can accomplish. I bet some spare time "amateurs" would possibly find new clever ways to circumvent its complexity. Hopefully, we'll see some homemade games get developed in modern times for the Saturn to prove its untapped potential, now that the system has been cracked.
 
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This nosnense about a 3D Sonic for the Saturn doing anything is something that has always puzzled me and seems to be a rabid fan dream. At best it would have sold more than Sonic R, Jam, and 3D Blast combined, which isn't saying much, it would barely move Saturns.

I agree that Sega milked Sonic far too much. It wasn't just Sonic on burnout it was the 16 bit market in general that is decline with both SEGA and Nintendo seeing big drops to their profits in 94/95 with a big surplus of unsold carts. But not to have your major mascot on your console would hurt sales and hurt your own userbase.

Also, I don't agree with you on Sonic. Sonic Adv was a great game and DC version is basically just a remake of the Saturn version that Sonic Team were working on for 2 years. That would have been a bit of a deal for the Saturn and would have just added to Sonic X if Sega America ever got its act together. And no... I'm not a rabid fan of Sonic or even think Sonic was the best platform game on the Mega Drive, but the IP sells and many Sonic fans would have been looking forward to a 3D Sonic
 
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
SEGA and Nintendo seeing big drops to their profits in 94/95 with a big surplus of unsold carts.
That's surprising considering Nintendo released one of their biggest games in 94 with Donkey Kong Country. DKR was huge, it gave the SNES a boost in sales late in its life cycle.
 
That's surprising considering Nintendo released one of their biggest games in 94 with Donkey Kong Country. DKR was huge, it gave the SNES a boost in sales late in its life cycle.
The Facts

Drop in NCL net income from 1993 to 1994 - 41%


Nintendo games also sell big even when they have little market share just look at sales of their games on the Wii U. The 16-bit market was declining and over saturated in 1994/5
 

Daniel Thomas MacInnes

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
Sega Saturn 3D Showcase, Part Three

Welcome to the third part on what will now be a four-part series that looks at "impressive 3D Sega Saturn videogames." This time, we will be digging a little deeper into the system's software library, including a number of third-party titles, one PAL exclusive and one Japanese exclusive that recently received a new English language fan translation.

As always, this is not meant to be a competition against Sony Playstation or Nintendo 64. We are not looking at "the best 3D graphics of Generation Five" or "most advanced technology ever," which is a pointless exercise. There's equal room for all three systems to thrive and be enjoyed equally, and this series is meant to elevate Saturn from its unjustly poor reputation to join its peers in equal standing.

Update (3/30): I removed all the YouTube videos and added in new screenshots. Everything should look much nicer now. Enjoy!


mXWepLql.jpg


World Series Baseball 2: Sega's second Saturn baseball title features all stadiums, teams & players. Presentation is extremely polished and the fusion of digitized sprites and polygon stadiums is flawless.


oco8FwHl.jpg


Croc: Legend of the Gobbos: A rare entry in the 3D platforming genre for Saturn. Argonaut does an excellent job in creating colorful worlds and, um, "interesting" controls. Supports the analog 3D Controller.


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The Need For Speed: Electronic Arts delivers a compelling arcade racer with smooth 30fps action, solid visuals and loads of cool sports cars. There's a lot of depth and features to keep you engaged for ages.


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Deep Fear: Sega's "Resident Evil On a Boat" features pre-rendered backgrounds and polygon characters, plus extensive CG movie clips. Everything's in English, which is a miracle for importing.


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Wachenroeder: Sega's wonderfully stylized Strategy-RPG combines 2D sprites & 3D stages, but the real visual star are the special attacks, featuring polygon characters and dazzling shading and lighting effects.


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Die Hard Arcade: This supremely cool 3D beat-em-up lets you unleash dozens of attacks and wield an endless array of weapons, from broom handles to grandfather clocks to rockets. It's crazy addictive fun.


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High Velocity: Mountain Racing Challenge: The best thing about Cave's 1-on-1 racer are the spectacular course designs, climbing, turning and weaving through Japanese mountains, hills, roads and tunnels.


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Iron Storm: Sega's masterful World War II military strategy simulation offers 3D battles where armies battle one another. It's still highly impressive & always keeps you engaged in the long, involving campaigns.


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Alien Trilogy: Probe and Acclaim shock gamers everywhere with this breezy, nimble and brilliantly tense first-person shooter adaptation of the classic Alien movies. It's not Powerslave, of course, but what is?


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Manx TT Superbike: Tantalus did a killer job bringing the Model 2 arcade racer home. Looks great, runs fast, computer bikes are extremely challenging. Wish there were more courses. Analog control is a must.


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Scorcher: Scavenger and Zyrinx seriously outdid themselves with the N64-quality graphics engine in this futuristic racer. Kind of plays like Wipeout meets Marble Madness, if that makes any sense.


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A.M.O.K.: This Scavenger/Lemon mech shooter offers one intriguing variation: 3D voxel graphics. Everything just looks great, like an Amiga demo blown up in every direction. Very tough and packed with things to do.


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World Cup France 98: Road to Win: This final installment of Sega's Worldwide Soccer franchise introduces analog control and slightly improved graphics. Gameplay is just as compelling and addictive as ever.


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All-Star Baseball 97 Featuring Frank Thomas: It's not as refined as Sega's World Series Baseball 2, but the presentation here is extremely solid and everything just looks great. And it plays a good game of baseball.


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Street Racer Extra: Ubisoft's cartoonish Mario Kart clone looks absolutely terrific, with highly detailed tracks and a number of visual effects not present on the Playstation version.


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Sega Ages: Power Drift: Flawless translation of the legendary 1988 Sega arcade racing game. All that's needed is the tilting seat just like in the coin-op. Sensational showpiece for 3D sprite graphics on Saturn.


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Seabass Fishing 1 & 2: These two fishing games are so supremely polished and visually accomplished, you'd think you were looking at a budget Dreamcast game. Why did we never get these?


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Soldnerschild: Koei's Strategy-RPG offers battles with large armies, ala Dragon Force, but also features one-on-one polygon battles between competing generals and it all looks terrific. This needs a translation!


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Vandal Hearts: A new English translation for this Saturn port of the PSX Strategy-RPG classic is highly welcome. There are some interesting variations & refinements and it all comes together so nicely.


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Side Pocket 3: This installment of Data East's successful pool sims introduces polygon visuals. Everything looks sumptuous and inviting, from the richly detailed textures to the player models.


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Thunderstrike 2: The best combat flight sim on Saturn, this sequel to the Sega CD classic blazes with confidence. Fast, exciting, always keeping you on your toes, still looks great and never misses a beat.


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Soviet Strike: EA's fourth installment of their beloved Strike franchise looks terrific on Saturn, boasting better lighting effects and details over its PSX cousin. I find myself coming back to this often, and so should you.


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Virtual Golf: Core surprises with a golf sim that's very engaging, highly colorful and very challenging. The graphics engine is shockingly good at times and the large-size power bar makes hitting your shots easy.


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Psychic Killer Taromaru: Now this is what Sega Saturn does best, combining 2D and 3D art assets and combining everything into one perfectly stylish and engaging package. What else needs to be said? It's just like buttah.
 
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RAIDEN1

Member
Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)
 

Daniel Thomas MacInnes

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)

Agreed. But that would have also driven up the cost of the hardware, which was already dangerously expensive to begin with. And what really hurt Sega is that the Saturn's manufacturing price just couldn't come down to reach the mass-market level ($149-$199) necessary for success. That is, without taking massive (over $100/unit) losses on every sale, which is a pretty good way to kill your company.

If you added in a Genesis cartridge slot, you'd have to take out something else to balance the cost. And where do you cut? You'll weaken the hardware as a result and likely fall further behind your rivals.
 

cireza

Banned
Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)
Backward Compatibility would have required the same (or highly compatible) components inside the console. It would have been complicated I think. In the end, it would have brought the console closer to what the MegaDrive+Mega-CD+32X actually offers. They needed the jump.
 
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Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)
I agree. Given the Saturn had a 6800 inside it I wonder why SEGA like SONY did with the PS2 didn't just use the sound chip to handle BC and just simply made an adaptor as it did with the Master System Converter 2 to fit in the Saturn cart slot
 

DaGwaphics

Member
I agree. Given the Saturn had a 6800 inside it I wonder why SEGA like SONY did with the PS2 didn't just use the sound chip to handle BC and just simply made an adaptor as it did with the Master System Converter 2 to fit in the Saturn cart slot

True, they really only needed to throw a Z80 in there, which should have been relatively cheap at that point.

Moore's law was really kicking back then, so probably the best solution for Sega would have been to wait another year to release the Saturn. Let the forward progression of technology allow them to easily best the PSX in specs a year later without requiring further losses. This assumes that they never released the 32x or any stop gap measure, and just chose to try and milk the 16bit era for another year.
 
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RAIDEN1

Member
True, they really only needed to throw a Z80 in there, which should have been relatively cheap at that point.

Moore's law was really kicking back then, so probably the best solution for Sega would have been to wait another year to release the Saturn. Let the forward progression of technology allow them to easily best the PSX in specs a year later without requiring further losses. This assumes that they never released the 32x or any stop gap measure, and just chose to try and milk the 16bit era for another year.
Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...
 
Sega wasn't really a super star back then either, their console was more of a way to access games for extra money while popular games were licensed out to companies to put out on other systems, sometimes with input from them. Sonic 1 seemed to change Sega into really competing in the gaming space to attempt and fail to win. I don't think Sega really understood what to do in order to make it happen, especially Sega of Japan, who was furious about what SoA to start this new phase.

They "failed to win" yet MegaDrive on the whole was extremely profitable for them especially in America and Europe. You don't need to outsell your competition to be profitable, hardware sales aren't the end-all-be-all.

Because niche Japan exclusive games would cost money to translate for games that wouldn't, Jrpgs barely did anything on the PS1 outside FF and that's the console everyone had, the FF7 myth is a myth and it will always be a myth.

No, this is inaccurate. You have an extremely American-centric take on this, JRPGs were huge in Japan since the late Famicom days. And not just on Famicom, either; PC-88, PC-98, PC-Engine CD etc. all had some notable and well-selling JRPGs. In Japan, Dragon Quest was a bigger deal than Final Fantasy, it was DQVII that got a national holiday in Japan so business people could take the day off work to buy the game and play it at home, not Final Fantasy VII.

Plus, even at a basic break even goal Sega was in no position for those kind of games to sell, look at the best selling Saturn games outside japan, which weren't selling very well in the first place, it was sports, fighting which was oversaturated based on the Saturns sales performance, and some entries in already popular franchises and games bundled with the system.

The point of porting those games by then would not have been to increase system sales, but to have SOME market presence during the period where they effectively didn't really have any in the West. The other reason would've been to show more support to the fanbase who stuck around, as a sign of goodwill.

As for market presence by 1998 Sega barely had market presence, they were in the red in every gaming segment they were in Portable, Education, Computer, Arcade, Console, they already had been reducing shelf presence and cut down store shipments of consoles, as well as software production and they were still losing money on the Saturn.

This is inaccurate; Sega made profits on Saturn sales more or less the whole run of the system, thanks mainly to Japan and very high attach rates (higher than PS1 and N64). You are either making assumptions or working with outdated info; newer coverage on this stuff from credible sources like Jenovi show Sega's financials for the period and they stayed in the black with Saturn and as a corporation as a whole, until around sometime in 1998 where Dreamcast R&D and production costs (plus a lower-than-anticipated MSRP) caused them to go into the red.

You are conflating shrinking profit/revenue values with "losing money" i.e going in the red; they never went in the red until 1998. Also the rate of profit/revenue drops in the listed sectors was not even or linear; some had small drops that were also a factor for the sector as a whole (arcade), others had drops because of Sega's own decision to reduce or cut spending in new product for those areas (education; the Pico line was affected by Nakayama's decision to scale down production and funding for all non-Saturn Sega home consumer ventures in 1995), etc. There is a lot more nuance to this than you think.

That near 2 year delay in really doing anything with the Saturn may be the only reason why we got the Dreamcast, especially in the quantity it sold hardware and software, which was released on margin combined with rich company exec and donor money.

Except it's not like Sega couldn't have done it both ways at the time. They made some odd choices during that era not necessarily talked about such as pouring money into GameWorks (and working alongside Steven Spielberg) that costed money. Money that could've gone towards some Western ports of certain Japan-only Saturn games.

They also could've reduced Dreamcast R&D costs by working on simply one prototype and possibly funnel some of the money saved by skipping the other prototype (Dural) into securing DVD playback on Dreamcast. Granted these are perspectives we have with hindsight but I think if the company were more organized corporate-wise in that era others would've possibly seen similar options and taken them.

And with that financial turmoil how could they fund a Crash 3, or GTA, or RRT4, or Tekken 3, or Twisted Metal 3 to pad out the Saturn inbetween that time? Wasting money to put out games that won't sell enough to cover costs on a system bleeding money?

That's just it, though; Saturn wasn't "bleeding money" to the point of putting Sega in the red. They were able to see profits every year up until 1998, and that is mainly due to Dreamcast. One of the lesser-known reasons there is because Sega originally planned to sell Dreamcast for $250 in the West but Stolar curveballed them with a $199 and Sega of Japan decided to stick with that due to the popularity of the price point. However, that messed up projections as it meant they'd need to sell higher-than-usual attach rates of software and peripherals within the first two years in order to cover for the additional losses from hardware sales. It also didn't help that Dreamcast wasn't quite as cheap to manufacture as some people like to think, even if it lacked a DVD drive.

What you're arguing for is a dead-end because it only creates a catch-22; hardware won't sell without software (and more importantly, well-marketed software), so using lacking hardware sales as the single determining factor in whether or not to pursue software development literally creates a bad feedback loop of lowered hardware sales, motivating less software dev, meaning continued lower hardware sales, etc. That is essentially corporate/brand suicide.

All I have actually advocated for is Sega should've ported over more of the Japan-only titles, and being a bit smarter with some of their funds would've helped. Work something out with Capcom & SNK to get more of their fighters in the West alongside the 4MB RAM cart. Maybe don't sour relations with Working Designs so you can commission them for an English translation of Shining Force II Parts 2 and 3, and maybe some of the other Japan-only adventure games like Virus. Now would those have sold gangbuster numbers? Probably not, but at this point we're talking 1998 territory and there's no big comeback factor for Saturn in the West to begin with; these moves would've been ways of enshrining a console niche that could be built upon with Dreamcast, satisfying Saturn faithful in the West as goodwill, and at least getting a bit of profit as, ultimately, funding for these ports and translations could be managed cost-wise with smart spending (such as potentially doing only English subs for JRPGs that had JP vocal dubs).

If Sega were more organized as a corporate structure at the time, they maybe could've read the room and seen the incoming anime boom in the West around the '98-'00 time frame and did more of an internal push for key titles to tap into that. Their attempted merger with Bandai might've fallen through but why not salvage something out of that, such as a DBZ action or JRPG game that could get an English translation (text only or text & vocals)? They were certainly able to secure licensing with Toei at the time and in the past, so why not? Tapping into an emerging anime market is something they did pretty well in Japan which is why the Saturn was quite profitable for them in that region with strong attach rates from a dedicated fanbase, they could've done more to repeat that to some extent in the West in the final years of Saturn's commercial run and give something even more of a boost for Dreamcast in the West going into that system's launch.

Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...

Atari's computer line was still doing decently, and in Europe it actually was performing very well. That's one of the reasons Jack Tramiel wanted to focus on computers over consoles. I can't really verify this and it almost sounds too ridiculous to be true, but the Jaguar apparently had 2 million preorders lined up across Europe. However, IBM were only able to produce a mere fraction of that number. Sounds like a tall tale TBH but if there's any documented proof of it I'd love to see.

As for why Sega reacted? Well the American side felt their element of competition was in marketing the power of the device. It worked for them vs. Turbographx and having fast games like Sonic to advertise with little to no equivalents on SNES helped them retain marketshare lead in America for the time leading up to Jaguar (and until holiday 1994) and outsell SNES in Europe. While other companies jumping into the console market around that time had powerful machines themselves, they were either priced WAY outside of the MegaDrive/SNES price bracket, or from companies with no real history in the industry and thus no brand name in the gaming space at that time.

That's what made Jaguar different; it was priced pretty competitively to MegaDrive/SNES while offering a lot more power (they originally wanted $199 in fact as the MSRP), and Atari, while a weakened gaming brand by that point, still had a lot of legacy thanks to 2600 and their arcade gaming operations, plus good reputation for their computer line of systems (even if they weren't the strongest-selling in most regions). Sega, particularly SoA, probably felt threatened by that because if Atair could've gotten momentum rolling, they'd of likely been able to use Sega's style of marketing against them (in fact they tried doing that anyway) with results to back it up, at a price not much more than a MegaDrive/Genesis.

Of course, that's not how things played out at all; Jaguar crashed and burned because of a combination of hardware bottlenecks and Atari lacking the organizational and financial means to produce AAA 1P content and secure licensing deals from many of the biggest 3P publishers at the time. So Jaguar may've technically been magnitudes more powerful but didn't really have any games which demonstrated it in practice. By the time some of those games kind of started to come along (some thanks to Jaguar CD), it was way too late, as MegaDrive and SNES were essentially done (SNES less so, because Nintendo decided to keep it going a bit longer as N64 wouldn't be ready 'till '96), and Saturn & PS1 were on the market, showing demonstrable leaps over Jaguar from Day 1.
 
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Daniel Thomas MacInnes

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...

Atari Corp were still major players in the early 1990s. The 2600 Jr. sold six million units and the 7800 sold four million, both outselling the Sega Master System in the US. The ST line of computers did fairly well in Europe as well, at least until the Amiga 500 took off. The brand was still important in the minds of consumers and they demonstrated a willingness to compete with strong hardware.

Had the Jaguar released 1-2 years earlier, it might have made a bigger impact. Indeed, it didn’t sell that badly in its first year, only being held back by inventory problems (an issue that plagued Atari back then). And all the videogame industry needs is one breakaway hit. If Tempest 2000, Alien Vs. Predator, Iron Soldier or Brutal Sports Football clicked with the public and became big hits, history might have turned out differently.

Yes, Jaguar and 3DO seem like small potatoes in the year 2021, but in 1993, they were formidable rivals who had an equal chance to take the crown and steal the spotlight away from Sega and Nintendo. After all, Sega themselves did just that in the early 90s.

I’m not all surprised if Jupiter was planned with those machines in mind. I don’t think many in the industry were expecting the technology to accelerate so quickly. We went from Commodore Amiga to Sega Model 3 in only five years. That is a gargantuan leap in such a short time.
 

Daniel Thomas MacInnes

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
A quick note on Atari. The original company was split into two in 1984: Atari Corp., the home consumer division that was sold to the Tramiel family, and Atari Games, the arcade division with ties to Namco. They were two separate entities.

Atari Games founded Tengen to publish home videogames because they weren’t allowed to do so directly (as dictated by Jack Tramiel). They did collaborate a lot on the Lynx and produced some of that system’s strongest titles. They also got into that nasty legal battle against Nintendo over unlicensed NES games, including, of course, the infamous Tengen Tetris. The company was later rebranded as Time Warner Interactive (yuck!) and later merged with Williams-Midway. I don’t know who owns the IP rights after Midway died.
 
Backward Compatibility would have required the same (or highly compatible) components inside the console. It would have been complicated I think. In the end, it would have brought the console closer to what the MegaDrive+Mega-CD+32X actually offers. They needed the jump.

If you look back at Sega's hardware history leading up to Saturn, they actually had a habit of utilizing hardware components from the previous console inside of the new one, and iterating on the design while adding new features. SG 1000, Master System, MegaDrive etc. all follow that design philosophy. They'd mix it with pulling from current, relevant arcade board tech and seeing what features could complement the design, like how they took from System-16 for the MegaDrive (while iterating on Master System for MegaDrive, hence why it is technically BC with Master System games).

I'd recommend Jenovi's Sega hardware videos for more insight into it; pretty interesting approach that had its benefits and drawbacks. But as you said, Saturn basically had to cut that approach out because it probably wouldn't of been enough for the level of performance the industry was moving towards in console gaming for the mid-1990s'.
 
You ignore the fact that Sonic 1 sold so much because it was a pack-in title, just like the original Super Mario Bros and Super Mario World.
Which also sold gangbusters without bundles, and Mario isn't the only example here. Also keep in mind your argument is poor and your a coward, so you're bringing other console ips into this conversation but blaming me for "shitting up the thread" and console warring so you can escape. You're a sad excuse for a poster and can't even handle simple discourse.

There's no example of a consistent loss like this, Sonic 2 for one, was also bundled, it has a more aggressive campaign, it couldn't even retain 60%+~ of the 15 million the first game sold, Yet it was literally front and center all in your face, and then you saw similar drops for Sonic 3 Sonic and K, and Sonic 3D Blast. Sonic CD could barely move CD's, and that was earlier on during Sonics rocket popularity.

The issue is no one wants to just admit that Sega had no idea what they were doing and how to retain the fanbase they had during the years of 1990-1992, you don't need any other console for comparison you only need to focus on Sega to see the reality, they had momentum and a reach they never though they would get and lost it not long after they got it, the Saturn, which is the focus of this thread not Mario Btw, I know you sometimes get lost, is often cited as a problem that killed Sega because people also don't want to admit Sega dropped the ball before then, they dropped the ball even before the 32X, the acceleration of their bad moves on their company finances, reputation, reach, and structure, is why they went from a surprise multinational hit to being near bankrupt in just 4 years. (1992-1996) and then relying on handouts and lottery level investment chances 2 years after that to launch something they wouldn't have been able to launch otherwise (the Dreamcast).

nonsense theories and borderline console warring

Ah yes, see a coward will make this up even though he is the cause, to get out of a failing argument. It shows you have no character bringing irrelevant Mario bundle comparisons out of context for a poor discussion, saying reality are theories when you are the one spewing nonsense, you didn't even know Sonic Adventure was bundled with the Dreamcast, you are shitting up the thread, go shove off and come back when you're educated.


Sonic Adventure was not a pack-in title. Where do you get that from?

I got it from reality, the place you keep insisting you're in but are not. Here are just some random ones found in seconds of search, there are more:

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(Granted the last one didn't have many produced but still.)
 
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
and your a coward,
You got the wrong "your" there buddy. :messenger_winking: Yeah, you obviously don't get the point at all.

Do you even know what pack-in means? Gee, you argue with limited special editions and console bundles that were released in late 2000 and 2001 (after Sega disbanded the Dreamcast systems were bundled with multiple games and sold by third-party manufacturers like Big Ben).
Sonic Adventure still wasn't a pack-in title. Please check the definition.

You're a sad excuse for a poster and can't even handle simple discourse.
Your whole argument is that Sonic declined in sales, but you are ignoring the elephant in the room, that Sonic 1 was a pack-in title. It was sold with each Genesis at one point (Similar to how Wii Sports was sold with each Wii). It would have done good regardless but never it would've done 20 million (you are off by 5 million btw.) on its own merits.

Sonic 2 was sold primarily on individual sales (for proof you just need to open the spoiler in my last post). It was bundled, yes, but not nearly in the same fashion as Sonic 1. It wasn't a pack-in title.

You are talking about a simple discourse, but can't even grasp the basic logic of my argument.
Please read this beforehand. It will help you immensely.

If you want to discuss your theory, open up another thread. This thread is for impressive 3D-games for the Saturn and not console warring that is 25 years too late.

So yeah, we are done here.
 
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Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.

3DO.

Sonic Adv was a great game and DC version is basically just a remake of the Saturn version

Wut?

but the IP sells and many Sonic fans would have been looking forward to a 3D Sonic
You must have forgotten or aren't aware of the early marketing for 3D Blast before it was fully unraveled for the Saturn, sure it would have sold jsut based on being a proper game with likely decent marketing but it wouldn't have moved that many Saturns, the buyer base was already dropping like a rock, the lack of games that launched with the Saturn were mostly games that were alienative which is why a lot of people didn't buy a Saturn, Sonic would have only helped that a little bit.

You also need to consider what system this 3D Sonic is on and when the EARLIEST it would have come out would likely be Holiday or summer 1997, so you would have one console who started igniting in popularity and reach in 1996 post TR, Crash etc(PSX), and then a newer console that primarily advertised as a super powered 3D system after a two year delay that also had better 3D capabilities, and would at the time hit records in upfront sales its first year(N64).

Look at the footage we got and the dev assists, even if they slightly improved them they couldn't to that much better with the hardware at that time. Putting Sonic Xtreme next to Crash, Mario 64, and even Croc 1(PSX) would have Sonic Xtreme stand out and considering there would actually be things going on, on screen, with several enemies, objects and assets, it would be near impossible to get the game to look at good as Sonic R, especially that early, and would likely look at best as good as Sonic Jam 3D demo. Not to mention by the time it would come out Crash 2 would release as well. Saturn 3D weaknesses was also a major issue back in the 90's and was a strike against it even though people are a bit less aggressive on it these days, but we have to look at it from a 90's point of view.

Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)

it would have helped but Sega would still need to incentivize using that bridge by having some games in the launch year that relate to the games and genre's that got people to buy Genesis consoles in the earlier part of the 90's. One big issue with the Saturn is it's launch games, in large part but not entirely, alienated the demographics and ignored the trends. Likely thinking the 3D angle alone would make up for it, a slightly risky strategy that had a chance of working maybe, if they had the right games which they didn't, and if Sega didn't stagger that early US release with no support which kind of threw any speculation on that out the window anyway.

But even I assumed back then the cart slot would at least be used to play Genesis games and some "leaks" as they say back then implied or said it would whether or not that was just crazy insiders thinking they knew or if Sega had actually planed to do so and backed off isn't really relevant, because it was a bad decision to not use it either way. It's even more odd considering how much they were initially porting and developing arcade titles based on Arcade games that were popular on the Genesis. Timmy got some Genesis games he wants to play on his new Saturn, no tiimmy no, lol.

Agreed. But that would have also driven up the cost of the hardware, which was already dangerously expensive to begin with. And what really hurt Sega is that the Saturn's manufacturing price just couldn't come down to reach the mass-market level ($149-$199) necessary for success. That is, without taking massive (over $100/unit) losses on every sale, which is a pretty good way to kill your company.

If you added in a Genesis cartridge slot, you'd have to take out something else to balance the cost. And where do you cut? You'll weaken the hardware as a result and likely fall further behind your rivals.

This is the issue when looking at Sega and the Saturn specifically, Sega ended up bleeding and in a bad position BECAUSE they kept failing to try and catch up 32X and Saturn onward. They had inflated the cost of their R&D, production, marketing, and hardware. Saturn was in no position to take advantage late in the game to change their hardware or buy more expensive 9though cheaper than a couple years before) processors to match or exceed the PSX for example, without going bankrupt in the process, yet they ended up nearly doing that trying to meet PSX half way in the first place with gimped attempts at model 2 ports.

Sega should have just released the original Saturn and added BC with the cartridge slot which in that case wouldn't have been as big an expense. From what I understand original Saturn was more powerful than the Model 1 anyway, you likely still would have gotten some of the fighting games with less textures and more shaded polygons, it wouldn't have been the current Saturn but you still would have had good 3D and great 2D experiences at goold performance rates and would have allowed more devs to jump on board which for a console originally released in 1994, would have been fine.

Btw it doesn't make sense to use current mass market levels and apply them to back in the day, while you have a point, $99 used to be the mass market selling point, consoles would hit that in a relatively short time, by 1998 you could find $99-$129 PSX systems.

However, Sega's high price and low margins made it so that would become a major problem. In fact them being forced to cut the prices was a large part of their bleeding.

Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...

This is applying a future manipulated narrative about Atari and applying it to the past.

Ataris' reputation int he industry in 1992 the year when they switched from Panther to Jaguar, was that Atari had came back i the mid 80's with profitable consoles and a big platform in the computer industry, and by the end of the 80's was rumored working on rumored super systems (St console>Panther>Jaguar in that order) while they had the most advanced console of all time in a handheld gaming consoles releasing at the same time as the gameboy.

In other words Atari was interesting because people wanted to see their next moves, they didn't really have a bad reputation at the time outside of some leadership positions and some bad blood with some retailers that was cooling at that point. Issue is The management changed and Atari started shooting thsmself in the leg but that wouldn't become obvious until after the jaguar came out and after Atari basically discontinued all other lines of revenue because well, the management was stupid.

So from the perspective of Sega, they were working on a new console, Atari and another company 3DO, are claiming to jump to 3D focused gaming experiences at the same time, but early on during the announcement phase Atari was the only one with demo's, and the demos were impressive, and since that was just a demonstration for something upcoming, this meant that the games produced on it would be more impressive than those demo's, tons of press about the super console and what it can do, interviews, and son on. You also need to consider the fact the Panther was also a speculative curioisity for a time so now Atari dropped that for something "stronger" overall.

From Sega's perspective back in 1992 the 32X made perfect sense, beef up the Saturn and have a stop-gap that would keep people with the Sega brand until it came out. It was designed to directly compete with the Jaguar based on what they could find out to the point where both consoles actually trade blows in areas with each other, and while the Jaguar is overall stronger than the 32X, Sega got the varied game support and experienced developers, and larger studios and more money, to really undercut the Jaguar, in fact, the 32X sold 3x as much.

Of course, that wasn't so much due to the 32X being better, or cheaper, but more so that Atari when the jaguar released was in a similar position to Sega when they released the Dreamcast, except they expended all their margin. Atari literally could not produce enough consoles and games for the Jaguar to really have a platform to reach enough consumers to be even a modest success, games like Tempest, Doom, AvP, Rayman were all popular games and they all helped move consoles, but Atari literally could only produce 10's of thousands per quarter and the software wasn't that much better.

I'm assuming the reason why Atari took a bet that dumb was because they saw the advertised 3Do price with or without the extra controller/gun/game bundle which would have at minimum cost you $500, and expected that since they were cheap, had already impressed everyone with demo's, that consumers would be impressed and since nothing else was on the market they likely expected consumers to "wait" until they got their shit together. The N64 delay later likely didn't help that. They likely were not expecting 3DO to drop the price that quick and have such high profile titles as fast as it did, and they likely definitely didn't see the the PSX and Saturn coming out the same year after the Jaguars "full" launch, since 1993 was when they were "market testing" which gave 3DO basically a free year to itself.
 
You got the wrong "your" there buddy. :messenger_winking: Yeah, you obviously don't get the point at all.

Do you even know what pack-in means?
Yes but you clearly don't. Sonic Adventure was packed in bundles of hundreds of thousands for some of them which can equate to a large chunk of that 2.5 million sales, you're dissmissles are not relevant to reality.

, but you are ignoring the elephant in the room, that Sonic 1 was a pack-in title

I already addressed this, but you intentionally ignored it for this post to deceive people that I didn't. In fact, your entire post here doesn't really address anything I said in my response, because you know you don't have a rebuttal. Including the fact you brought in Mario sales numbers and accused me of starting console wars, yet you posted thos numbers out of context anyway making a crap comparison.

Sonic 2 It was bundled, yes,
You said it wasn't, notice you won't actually say you made a mistake on that (like with the SA pack-ins) but instead try to dodge.

I also addressed the environment Sonic 2 is in, and how that the drop was bad regardless of Sonic 1 being "more" packed in, and addressed the games that came after it but how curious, you avoided addressing that as well. Instead pretending that I never responded to that point at all.

I mean it's clear you can't argue, have no morality, and can't even be civil without lying and deceiving and taking things out of context. Then you make accusations to cover your tracks as you run like a scared dog.
 

s_mirage

Member
I agree. Given the Saturn had a 6800 inside it I wonder why SEGA like SONY did with the PS2 didn't just use the sound chip to handle BC and just simply made an adaptor as it did with the Master System Converter 2 to fit in the Saturn cart slot
Probably because it's nowhere near as simple as you're making it sound. A VDP would have needed a Mega Drive compatibility mode or the Mega Drive's VDP would need to be included or emulated. The same goes for the Z80, PSG, and the YM2612. Assuming they went the hardware root rather than trying at least partial software emulation they'd also have to make sure the bus and memory timings were compatible, which might necessitate adding extra RAM specifically for the Mega Drive subsystem. The Saturn's 68000 would probably have needed to be able to lower its clock speed since it's faster than the Mega Drive's, and that's if the 68000 in the Saturn could even be used that way. AFAIK the 68EC000 used in the Saturn may not have been 100% compatible either, though I read conflicting things about that.

It would have potentially added further complexity and cost to an already complex and costly system. I'm not sure whether software emulation would have been possible, and I have my doubts, but bear in mind that software emulators tend to require the entire ROM to be loaded into RAM. The Saturn doesn't have enough RAM for that, and I don't think they'd have thrown in an extra couple of Megs for backwards compatibility.
 
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S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
You said it wasn't, notice you won't actually say you made a mistake on that (like with the SA pack-ins) but instead try to dodge.
No, I did not. I said it wasn't bundled in the same fashion as the first one. The bit about you having poor reading comprehension skills was supposed to be a joke. Apparently, it is totally true. Either that or you are trying your hardest to twist what I've said.

You said it wasn't, notice you won't actually say you made a mistake on that (like with the SA pack-ins) but instead try to dodge.
Notice how you trying to make it look like Dreamcast was regularly sold with Sonic Adventure and as a defense you bring up bundles that were either A) Limited Editions B) Were sold in late 2000 and 2001. The biggest chunk of Sonic Adventures sales came from it being a launch title sold individually alongside the Dreamcast and not with it. If you show me an official bundle from 1999 selling the Dreamcast with Sonic Adventure as a pack-in title, I'll gladly shut up.

My rebuttal stands strong as it is because you still fail to see the obvious. Okay, last try. If you still don't get it then whatever.

Wii Sports was a pack-in title for pretty much the entire lifecycle of the Wii. When you got a Wii you almost certainly also got Wii Sports (just how you got Sonic 1 when you bought a Genesis). It sold 80 million copies.

Wii Sports Resort was released as a sequel. It did 35 million copies. It also was bundled a lot but unlike the original, it wasn't sold with each and every Wii console. Also unlike the original, a good chunk of those sales figures come from individual sales.

The very same applies to Sonic 1 compared to Sonic 2 (Which would have sold great regardless, but still much much less. Sonic 1 being a pack-in title helped immensely).

Kalinske's strategy to place Sonic the Hedgehogas the pack-in game paid off.[3][74] Sonic the Hedgehog greatly increased the popularity of the Genesis in North America,[53] and the bundle is credited with helping Sega gain 65% of the market share against Nintendo.[1]

One of the reasons why the Genesis quadrupled in sales and managed to overtake Nintendo's market share was the decision to bundle Sonic 1 with each and every Genesis. They knew they had a hit on their hands. They knew it was going to sell consoles. Again, neither Sonic 2 nor Sonic Adventure were pack-in titles. They were bundled, yes, but they weren't sold with each and every system. I make a clear distinction between a game being bundled and a game being a pack-in title. A pack-in title is always sold with the system regularly, meaning if you buy the system you also get the pack-in title. A bundled game can be any game that is sold alongside a system often as a limited offer (Examples are the very own limited edition Dreamcast's and bundles you posted), meaning you need to buy a specific console bundle. The difference here should be clear. Sonic 1 was sold as a pack-in with each and every Genesis at one point. Sonic 2 wasn't. In other words, every pack-in is a bundle. Not every bundle is a pack-in.

Even the commercials address this:





What once was "Games and systems sold separately" became a "Limited time offer" and then "buy a Genesis and get Sonic 1 as a pack in".
A huge chunk of Genesis owners got their systems with Sonic 1 because it was part of buying a Genesis. Obviously, there were limited-time offers and bundles for Sonic 2 as well, but that is not comparable. If Sonic 2 replaced Sonic 1 as the pack-in Genesis title it would a different story, but that just wasn't the case. Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 did most of their sales individually. That is a fact you can look up everywhere.

You failed to address anything.
 
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A quick note on Atari. The original company was split into two in 1984: Atari Corp., the home consumer division that was sold to the Tramiel family, and Atari Games, the arcade division with ties to Namco. They were two separate entities.

Biggest mistake was souring Atari games on the St, which had them shun the 7800, and Atari games had contact with multiple partners as well so that would ahve tripled the 7800's third party library where Nintendo had legally questionable contracts locking devs out from touching any other system, granted the 7800 was still profitable, but maybe if it sold a bit more Atari wouldn't have delayed that ST console which led them switching to the Panther, which led them to another console delay when they Switched to the Jaguar.

Atari Corp were still major players in the early 1990s. The 2600 Jr. sold six million units and the 7800 sold four million, both outselling the Sega Master System in the US. The ST line of computers did fairly well in Europe as well, at least until the Amiga 500 took off. The brand was still important in the minds of consumers and they demonstrated a willingness to compete with strong hardware.

Had the Jaguar released 1-2 years earlier, it might have made a bigger impact. Indeed, it didn’t sell that badly in its first year, only being held back by inventory problems (an issue that plagued Atari back then). And all the videogame industry needs is one breakaway hit. If Tempest 2000, Alien Vs. Predator, Iron Soldier or Brutal Sports Football clicked with the public and became big hits, history might have turned out differently.

Yes, Jaguar and 3DO seem like small potatoes in the year 2021, but in 1993, they were formidable rivals who had an equal chance to take the crown and steal the spotlight away from Sega and Nintendo. After all, Sega themselves did just that in the early 90s.

I’m not all surprised if Jupiter was planned with those machines in mind. I don’t think many in the industry were expecting the technology to accelerate so quickly. We went from Commodore Amiga to Sega Model 3 in only five years. That is a gargantuan leap in such a short time.

This is inaccurate, Tempest and AVP were big hits, Atari couldn't produce the copies needed, people would wait at game stores and there would be no stock for games, the hardware, or both, and dates given for rain checks often lapsed or were replaced. In fact AVP seems to be the best selling game on the system but if you can't make a few hundred thousand copies to go with a few hundred thousand Jaguars, than it's impossible to have a bigger reach and capitalize on success. Atari could have had a Crash bandicoot tier game in popularity, hype reviews, and sales momentum and still only sell 100k copies on a 12ok install base because they didn't have enough money to produce the consoles and software, and if you can't produce enough to sell that means your revenue and profits are capped. Atari was in a terrible position to launch the jaguar.

As for 1-2 years earlier, I disagree, Atari had the Panther project back then which still could do some neat early 3D, better than the St and Amiga 2nd gen computers could do and could do some nice 2D effects as well (though apparently not as well as the Gen/SNES but 3D was the big thing anyway and what it could do in 2D was serviceable in comparison) they should have just stuck with that and added an extra year in the oven or two for the jaguar to wok out the bugs, get the software and supply lines going things like that. Another option would be an 89 or 90's release of the scrapped St console Idea which also could do 3D though worse than the Panther.

3DO in comparison to Atari has no support or manufacturing issues, and connections allowed some third-party support, some of which was due to the manufactures of the consoles as well, which was one of the better aspects of that idea. Among a pile of negatives, but that and other key positions pretty much made Atari irrelevant to the 3Do even early on with the high price tag of $500+, 3do was relevant until the sale of the hardware arm to Samsung in 97, and was successful enough to keep getting support and nearly launching a successor, but mid-tier start up company didn't have the war chest to play fire sales against the PSX, which ended up burning the 3Do company itself and the manufactures who used to be the only ones taking losses were taking 2x the losses. The fact Panasonic initially agreed to produce the M2 under similar policies and manufacturing deals always baffled me.

But despite being a mid-tier startup and despite the outsourced hardware, 3Do was able to get more done than Atari by a landslide so it makes you wonder just how red Atari was in 1994.

BTW the Commodore Amiga came out in 1985, so that to the 1995 model 3 would be 11 years, not 5. There was a period in the 80's where consoles and computers seemed to have been held back due to underpowered hardware somehow reaching a large number of consumers for a time, so when you look back and realize even the standard Amiga 500 could do 3D games, you realize that the industry should have been further ahead in 1990 than it was. On the console side the Sega Genesis was competitive in the 90's for interactive gaming on MOST ends despite being a gimped version of an arcade machine made with specs and capabilities seen in games during 1984. I personally blame the NES and Commodore 64+Computer price wars for that stall in development.

However even then 1985-1995 is still n impressive graphical jump, going from Sonic, Outrun, Food Fight, SMB, Xevious, Gauntlet, and Paperboy, to Twisted Metal, Fade to Black, Blade Force, Gex, and Need for Speed is definitely impressive, and likely the biggest jump of any 10 year span in the console industry.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
I feel bad for the OP, trying to create a thread featuring some of the best graphics from Saturn. I admit, I'm surprised by some of them. My only experience with Saturn as a tween was just playing a bit on the store kiosk, and coming away unimpressed vs. the PS.

Maybe a mod should take out some of the off topic posts to get things back on track.
 

Romulus

Member
Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.

Most high end playstation games dont have these type of framerate issues, and they have better graphics to boot. Most high end games on psone run at a solid 30fps.

zelda oot, zelda mm, ge, pd, turok 2, conker, banjo tooie, rouge squadron, jet force jemni all have crap framerates.

This is like half of the systems "quality" line up.

PS! games didn't look anywhere near as good either. Even the first Turok games blows away any PS1 FPS.
 
Thank you T The Gorby Congressmanz for ruining this thread.
Attacks me, I respond back to your hallucinations, and I'm ruining the thread? Nope sorry, thread will go on. You don't decided if the thread ends, and with now that you are resulting to desperate troll in corner tactics like no longer quoting me this along with your odd hallucination in your last reply, about events that never happened, shows you continue to lose the discourse and you leap right in the grave you dug for yourself, so this conversation is over.

Btw I though you said you were "done"? what happened. Gotta get that last word in? Well have fun. I'm going back to the thread topic now. But since the thread to your decree is ruined you can fill free to pretend it can't continue.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Honestly, I think not buying Sega was the worst mistake Microsoft ever made. They could have contended for the Japanese and Asian videogame markets.

Totally agree. At that time it was just the perfect fit, it would have given MS an established first-party presence that could pump out games to support a console. Looking at the software they created for DC, the sky would have been the limit if funding wasn't such an ever-present issue, plus being able to build for a competitive platform. Sega's resurgence as a publisher/3rd party dev is quite the accomplishment when you think about the shape they were in when they made that transition.

/Sorry about one more off topic post. :lollipop_anguish:
 
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When it comes to 3D graphics on the Saturn I look at it as a "Fixed 3DO" while I look at something like the N64 as a "fixed Jaguar".

The 3DO 3D was more than serviceable and could compete with 2nd gen PSX games, several games that were shared with the Saturn played or had graphical advantageous over the Saturn, and lack of severe warps and super jaggies helped with that in some cases leadingto a cleaner image, more on that later. However once you got somewhat into the Saturn silicon, not even deep, you could out produce the 3DO.

The main issue with the 3DO 3D was the framerate, and Saturn had that licked out the gate even in its most early form before the 2nd processor was added, even the jaguar was better in that regard, and that's because the 3DO, while it got a powerful processor that could do more than what other computers or consoles could do when it was incorporated in the design during development in 1992, it was slow. Saturn was designed with stronger later parts that dropped in price, of course 3DO didn't see that coming in just 2 years.

But once devs got a bit in too the Saturn you saw the Saturn push out impressive graphics over the 3DO and performance resulting stuff like this:

3DO Space Hulk:
2xnKYK.gif


Saturn Space Hulk:

WLg3YJ.gif


Generally,

The Saturn was pretty much the standard 3D for the time, a lot of the posts in this thread that include gifs, images, or videos all show this. It seems more like a narrative was created back in the day for the Saturn's "weak" 3D, which it wasn't. Remember some people said the Saturn had "no 3D" at all.

It does seem that the narrative stuck to the Saturn and was never able to be shaken off, but I think I do find one particular trend to blame for the weak 3D narrative, and that's how some of the more impressive Sega games handled the increase in details in images and textures, which usually results in worse image quality. in fact, the above Space hulk comparison between the 3DO and Saturn showcases this a bit.

Notice in the above images, if you pay attention the Saturn clearly has better performance, has more detail from the top grates, to the floor and everything around your character. The 3DO is clearly lacking in these areas. However, as a result the look of the Saturn gif is more grainy and not as appealing to look at, it's dark, there's more pixels, it's not as clear, it's not as clean, it's a bit muddy.

But if you look at the first 3DO gif with a quick glance, everything seems easier to look at, the performance is worse, but the visuals are cleaner. Notice the 3DO gif while not as graphically impressive still looks decent, looks brighter, the grates on the ceiling look cleaner other graphical assets are easier to look at despite being less detailed or more flat in graphical appearance.

I think that's a major weakness for the Saturn, especially when trying to break the "poor 3D capability" narrative. For one in stills it makes the Saturn game look worse than the competition unless you get a very good shot or you have a brighter game and the 3D is clean. It also makes games look worse at first glance, I bet someone here saw the bottom Saturn Gif and though I was making a comparison that some games on the 3DO look better than the Saturn because at first glance it seems that the 3DO gif is better, when you are being swift you see the cleaner graphics, less grain, brighter image, less grain, less mud. But if you take a look the Saturn visually blows the 3DO out the water, and outperforms it in frame rate as well.

I notice there are many exclusive games on the Saturn that have this problem, and it's also true for games shared with the 3DO and PSX, where when you start to push the graphical capabilities, especially with textures, the higher you go the grainier, muddier, less clean, and darker the visuals seems to be. There are exceptions but it's a problem that I've noticed with games that people often associate to be bad, or for games used as an example of the Saturns "weak" 3D.

But if you remove the false narratives, the Saturn was pretty much the bar for that whole generation. Sure technically you couldn't get Crash 3 on the Saturn but neither could the PSX 97% of the time so that's nonsense. There's barely much of a gap.

When you see Virtua Cop, VF2, Fighting Vipers these are all impressive games imo, because they were basically the par for the gen despite the media narratives from back then, so when you look at most impressive 3D graphics for the Saturn I would say near darnn all of them.

But if you want to ask me what Saturn games offer the best visual quality taking other trade offs into account you likely won't see much better than the fighting games, they all look terrific and are the best graphics you can get on the Saturn with reasonable trade offs.

imo.
 
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